The Digital Foundry at Eurogamer has posted an article about testing input latency for console games. The article covers a lot of ground including how input latency affects gameplay, testing methodology and the results from 17 games tested by the author.
Quote:
In-game latency, or the level of response in our controls, is one of the most crucial elements in game-making, not just in the here and now, but for the future too. It's fair to say that players today have become conditioned to what the truly hardcore PC gamers would consider to be almost unacceptably high levels of latency to the point where cloud gaming services such as OnLive and Gaikai rely heavily upon it.
The average videogame runs at 30FPS, and appears to have an average lag in the region of 133ms. On top of that is additional delay from the display itself, bringing the overall latency to around 166ms. Assuming that the most ultra-PC gaming set-up has a latency less than one third of that, this is good news for cloud gaming in that there's a good 80ms or so window for game video to be transmitted from client to server.
But in the meantime, while overall "pings" between console and gamer remain rather high, the bottom line seems to be that players are now used to it, to the point where developers - like Infinity Ward - centred on getting the very lowest possible latencies are using that to give their games an edge over the competition. Call of Duty's ultra-crisp response is one of the key reasons why it's a cut above its rivals, and it's a core part of a gameplay package that will once again top the charts this Christmas.
I predicted just yesterday that latency would be the premier front in the war against cloud-computing.
I'm surprised there's that much latency on consoles, though it doesn't matter as much when your refresh rate is lower anyway. It's on the computer where it's both far more important and far more noticeable, and that's where cloud-computing, like the OnLive service will be judged.
Further, cloud-computing will not be able to deal with positional input hardware which requires ultra-low latencies for accurate measurement of position on the order of at least 200hertz, or 5ms--such as the Wii and its spiritual successors from all three game-hardware companies.
This doesn't mean your onscreen movements are reacted to in 5ms, but rather it contributes to the accuracy and smoothness of positional controls, and generally the more the better and the more accurate.
Article says most people notice control lag at 166ms, interesting. You usually don't see reviewers of games talk in terms of control lag, instead they say controls feel 'sluggish' or 'unresponsive'. Would be nice to see the lag methodology put forth in the article become a regularly depended upon metric.
If he's willing to go to all that trouble to test 17 games on the console, why in the world is he "Assuming that the most ultra-PC gaming set-up has a latency less than one third of that..."?
Can't be bothered to run even one test using the same monitor for comparison?
If he's willing to go to all that trouble to test 17 games on the console, why in the world is he "Assuming that the most ultra-PC gaming set-up has a latency less than one third of that..."?
Can't be bothered to run even one test using the same monitor for comparison?
Most likely because he doesn't have access to a gaming-rig that fits the term.
I feel its one of those things that if you took 2 of the same games and one had 1ms lag and the other 100 or even more after your TV is done with it, that an average person would be able to tell that one is better than the other but they would not know why.
Just like 100fps on a CRT feels so much different that 60 on an LCD, but yet we are only supposed to be able to discern 60..
Im also beginning to wonder that with all this extra power has brought more bloat, and with it more lag because of all the processes that a modern game has to go through.
Which brings me to my theory, lag in modern games are making us fat and depressed from frustration brought on by games that are a bitch to control, and we dont even know it!!
I feel its one of those things that if you took 2 of the same games and one had 1ms lag and the other 100 or even more after your TV is done with it, that an average person would be able to tell that one is better than the other but they would not know why.
Just like 100fps on a CRT feels so much different that 60 on an LCD, but yet we are only supposed to be able to discern 60..
Im also beginning to wonder that with all this extra power has brought more bloat, and with it more lag because of all the processes that a modern game has to go through.
Which brings me to my theory, lag in modern games are making us fat and depressed from frustration brought on by games that are a bitch to control, and we dont even know it!!
Well, it's good that this issue is entering the modern gaming consciousness then. This article should become a modernizing factor in game critique and review, by making mainstream that test methodology.
Well, it's good that this issue is entering the modern gaming consciousness then. This article should become a modernizing factor in game critique and review, by making mainstream that test methodology.
Further, cloud-computing will not be able to deal with positional input hardware which requires ultra-low latencies for accurate measurement of position on the order of at least 200hertz, or 5ms--such as the Wii and its spiritual successors from all three game-hardware companies.
The day that I want to purchase a positional input device ala the Wiimote for my gaming PC, is the day PC gaming has evolved into something different than what it is today, and I lose interest. I dunno if it's just me, but I don't want a different setup. All that arm waving and pointing and shaking of your body is just imprecise and ridiculous. YOU WOULDN'T TYPE WITH THAT INPUT, WOULD YOU?
This kinda goes back to our OnLive discussion, Anenome, but with what OnLive is trying to do (you know, a mouse and keyboard or controller), then they don't need to worry about Wii-like input schemes. Well, not if they're going to be emulating PC games.
You only need four types of input devices to enjoy a PC game. (importance is descending)
Some type of HOTAS (I use a Saitek X45)
Xbox 360 Controller for Windows
Keyboard
Mouse
Anything else would ruin it. (Sorry, steering-wheel apologists!)
The day that I want to purchase a positional input device ala the Wiimote for my gaming PC, is the day PC gaming has evolved into something different than what it is today, and I lose interest. I dunno if it's just me, but I don't want a different setup. All that arm waving and pointing and shaking of your body is just imprecise and ridiculous. YOU WOULDN'T TYPE WITH THAT INPUT, WOULD YOU?
This kinda goes back to our OnLive discussion, Anenome, but with what OnLive is trying to do (you know, a mouse and keyboard or controller), then they don't need to worry about Wii-like input schemes. Well, not if they're going to be emulating PC games.
You only need four types of input devices to enjoy a PC game. (importance is descending)
Some type of HOTAS (I use a Saitek X45)
Xbox 360 Controller for Windows
Keyboard
Mouse
Anything else would ruin it. (Sorry, steering-wheel apologists!)
Yeah, I agree with your broad strokes, with the caveat that gaming, no matter the platform, is changing. PC gaming too will bow to positional input, inevitably, just as 2D-sprite based gaming gave way to 3D polygon-based gaming. 2D gaming still exists, but it's niche now.
One of the first things that happened when the Wii came out is the Bluetooth interface was hacked for PC. There's all sorts of Wiimote usages on the PC these days, from floating mice to virtual laser-pointers for presentations, to head-tracking.
3D gaming is inherently tied to a 3D positional interface as well. So, if PC gaming goes true 3D, the input must, as well.
My contention is that if OnLive gains any sort of traction whatsoever that the console companies would fight back by thrusting forward into 3D positional interface and gaming even faster, to protect their flank. Once again, that relegates OnLive to serving less ambitious, less cutting-edge games to the masses.
Yeah, I agree with your broad strokes, with the caveat that gaming, no matter the platform, is changing. PC gaming too will bow to positional input, inevitably, just as 2D-sprite based gaming gave way to 3D polygon-based gaming. 2D gaming still exists, but it's niche now.
I don't know why but I have a hard time buying that. To me, the jump to 3D polygon-based games is not the same as changing the input. Adding 3D was just a change (albeit a major) in graphics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anenome
One of the first things that happened when the Wii came out is the Bluetooth interface was hacked for PC. There's all sorts of Wiimote usages on the PC these days, from floating mice to virtual laser-pointers for presentations, to head-tracking.
I know, I've played with them all. Have you used the Wii-mouse? It sucks, bad. It's terribly slow and doesn't work well at all. I couldn't imagine playing a PC game with that thing. To me, none of those things you mentioned here actually enhance the game one bit, but rather detract from it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anenome
3D gaming is inherently tied to a 3D positional interface as well. So, if PC gaming goes true 3D, the input must, as well.
Huh? Not sure what you use on the PC, but my mouse and WASD keys can traverse a 3D space better than anything I've ever used. Period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anenome
My contention is that if OnLive gains any sort of traction whatsoever that the console companies would fight back by thrusting forward into 3D positional interface and gaming even faster, to protect their flank. Once again, that relegates OnLive to serving less ambitious, less cutting-edge games to the masses.
I can see that, but it's not really up to the console companies what games OnLive uses. It's a PC-based game service. And it's not like the console makers have anything to say about what games the publishers release for PC as well. Now, could they add those exceptions when selling licenses to run on their hardware? Sure. But if OnLive was competitive, it wouldn't work that way. Publishers would want to sell to whoever was making money (and had enhanced copyright protection)?
Huh? Not sure what you use on the PC, but my mouse and WASD keys can traverse a 3D space better than anything I've ever used. Period.
- Perhaps we're conflating terms here. I don't simply mean 3D in the way of polygon-based graphics. I mean 3D as in stereoscopic perceivable depth, literal 3D.
A mouse and keyboard are fundamentally 2D interfaces. When I think about playing a real-3D game, the best interface I've ever seen for it is what Sony presented at the last E3. True positional input tracking angle, depth, and relative position. Did you see their E3 demo? A mouse can never duplicate what was shown.
When real-3D becomes a mainstay of computing, and computer games, a mouse may not be enough anymore.
I wonder which is more important.
Input lag, or internet lag.
I think internet lag is about 90% of the reason I rage...
(Looking at you BF:1943)
~Shela Monster
The proper answer is: more important for what?
Input lag is going to be fairly constant, and thus less noticeable--plus it's entirely determined by hardware, generally, that is, it's local to your system. Internet lag is both variable and typically orders of magnitude larger.
So, I'd say internet lag is far more annoying when you're playing a versus game.
In solo-gaming, FPS lag and frame-dropping when action gets intense is annoying, and input lag is annoying also, though, as I pointed out, usually goes by other names such as 'sluggish controls'.
Very interesting read. Does anyone know if there are any similar articles/data samples that measure PC input (mouse/keyboard).
I remember when Carmack was first talking about QuakeZero that they wanted to do research on latency (or at least he mentioned it), but I haven't heard anything about the results.
