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Old 04-14-2012, 10:16 PM   #261
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Pray tell, how are these facts wrong. These infractions are not peaceful and law abiding...right? Besides how do you know martin "pursued" zim? Recall it was zim who "pursued" martin first...by his own words he admitted that.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...police-officer
Charged does not mean convicted. And speeding, really?
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:17 PM   #262
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You accuse Cygnus of writing the same thing repeatedly but not backing up, but you guys are doing the same thing. Please provide any reason to believe, other than "the killer said it", why we are to believe that Trayvon initiated a fight with Zimmerman?

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...teer-zimmerman

I guess he just gave himself those injuries for fun.
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:20 PM   #263
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Please provide any reason to believe, other than "the killer said it", why we are to believe that Trayvon initiated a fight with Zimmerman?
Because Zim actually has wounds consistent with being attacked in a fist fight. He was likely jumped by Tray after following him back to the car.

Again, we're both operating on very hazy evidence here, but the reason I take that stance as the likely one is because the people with access to all the evidence did not charge Zim (immediately anyway. questionable whether current charges are politically motivated or not).
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:27 PM   #264
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At what point did I say "convicted"? You act like the events never occurred. Last I checked, "speeding" is breaking the law...

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Charged does not mean convicted. And speeding, really?
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:30 PM   #265
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Sure he was in a fight, no one is arguing that. But was it near death? If so, then why did zim easily exit out of squad car without cop's assistance and comfortably walk to the station?

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http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...teer-zimmerman

I guess he just gave himself those injuries for fun.
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:38 PM   #266
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At what point did I say "convicted"? You act like the events never occurred. Last I checked, "speeding" is breaking the law...
If he wasn't convicted, then he was innocent of those crimes, i.e. not guilty, i.e. no criminal history.

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Sure he was in a fight, no one is arguing that. But was it near death? If so, then why did zim easily exit out of squad car without cop's assistance and comfortably walk to the station?
It's irrelevant if he was near death. He felt his life was in danger and defended himself with lethal force. That is the essence of the 'stand your ground' law, and has been upheld multiple times in court.
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Old 04-14-2012, 11:00 PM   #267
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If he wasn't convicted, then he was innocent of those crimes, i.e. not guilty, i.e. no criminal history.
OK well OJ is innocent of those alleged murders

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That is the essence of the 'stand your ground' law, and has been upheld multiple times in court.
Well regarding this case, it will be determined in a court of law...
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Old 04-14-2012, 11:36 PM   #268
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Well regarding this case, it will be determined in a court of law...
I don't even know what you are trying to say here. In every case so far, it's been determined in a court of law.
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Old 04-14-2012, 11:48 PM   #269
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK3Zd...eature=related

This may have been why he was not arrested the night of. Tryvons dad said it wasn't his sons voice ding the yelling. So cygnus, can we put this one to bed? Or does it need to be part of the fact and determined in a court of law? John the neighbor also said that it was zimmerman yelling.
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:13 AM   #270
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Well let this one be determined in a court of law too That almost did not happen this time thus the former outrage

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I don't even know what you are trying to say here. In every case so far, it's been determined in a court of law.
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:16 AM   #271
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No, cuz his mother said it was trayvon's voice...
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The state will argue that the voice heard crying for help in the background of one 911 call is Trayvon's. According to the affidavit, Trayvon's mother listened to the recording and identified the voice as her son's.
Additionally
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State investigators will rely on the testimony of a friend of Trayvon's who told them she talked to the teenager on the phone in the lead-up to the shooting and heard the confrontation.

Based on the description, she appears to be the girl described by Martin family attorneys as his girlfriend.

When interviewed by state investigators, "The witness advised that Martin was scared because he was being followed through the complex by an unknown male and didn't know why," the affidavit said.

Trayvon tried to run home, the affidavit says, but Zimmerman ignored the advice of a police dispatcher and continued pursuing him on foot
So, martin's gf could be a potential witness too as to who yelled help. Also if martin tried to run home, how did he attack zim at zim's car, unless zim's car was between martin's home and zim's car...or was zim lying about martin attacking zim at his car..?

Lastly...
Quote:
"Zimmerman confronted Martin," it says, an apparent contradiction of Zimmerman's version of events.
Thus I don't think this case is as cut and dried as you think...

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This may have been why he was not arrested the night of. Tryvons dad said it wasn't his sons voice ding the yelling. So cygnus, can we put this one to bed? Or does it need to be part of the fact and determined in a court of law? John the neighbor also said that it was zimmerman yelling.
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:20 AM   #272
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK3Zd...eature=related

This may have been why he was not arrested the night of. Tryvons dad said it wasn't his sons voice ding the yelling. So cygnus, can we put this one to bed? Or does it need to be part of the fact and determined in a court of law? John the neighbor also said that it was zimmerman yelling.
Pretty damning, his own father says it wasn't him calling for help. New witness says he saw Martin on top of Zim, beating him up. Martin was the aggressor, etc.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:29 AM   #273
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Also the official police transcripts you hear Zimmerman say he lost sight of Martin. If Martin was just so scared why didn't he run home when he had lost Zimmerman or call his dad/cops.

If Zimmerman had premeditated murder on his mind why was he engaged in a fiat fight prior to shooting him?

If someone jumped on you and started beating on you and there was a gun in the mix its reasonable to fear for your life.
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:28 AM   #274
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Also the official police transcripts you hear Zimmerman say he lost sight of Martin. If Martin was just so scared why didn't he run home when he had lost Zimmerman or call his dad/cops.
You are reaching with this.... While zim may have lost site of martin, perhaps zim was still in view of martin which prevented him from getting home.

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If Zimmerman had premeditated murder on his mind why was he engaged in a fiat fight prior to shooting him?
Wow who said anything about this being premeditated?? You are grasping at straws there

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If someone jumped on you and started beating on you and there was a gun in the mix its reasonable to fear for your life.
Hunh?? Zim had the gun, so why would he fear for his life? You have to admit that the case may not be as cut and dry as the zim defenders think..right? I'd like to hear from more of zim defenders too.
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:28 AM   #275
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Consistent view from legal experts (liberal or conservative) seems to be that the prosecutor has overcharged knowing that a judge would never even let a 2nd degree murder case go to trial, but hoping that Zimmerman will cop to manslaughter. Problem is that if Zimmerman really is telling the truth then he won't plea bargain, the case will get thrown out and the black community will go nuts.

As Alan Dershowitz says, the prosecutors behavior is unethical, but as an elected official all she wants to do is dump the problem on someone else and get out of the way of the blowback.
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:44 AM   #276
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You are reaching with this.... While zim may have lost site of martin, perhaps zim was still in view of martin which prevented him from getting home.
How in the hell is that "reaching"? The official police transcripts cite Zimmerman stating he lost site of Martin and didn't know where he was. Now saying that Zimmerman was still in Martin's view is stretching because if that were the case why didn't Martin dial 911, call his father, etc?



Quote:
Wow who said anything about this being premeditated?? You are grasping at straws there
Everyone acting as if Zimmerman saw some black guy and that set off this desire to cause trouble is essentially.



Quote:
Hunh?? Zim had the gun, so why would he fear for his life?
Man really? If your wrestling around with a guy and you have a gun on you that other peson can use it too you know. So if someone attacked me and was beating on me, while I had a pistol in a holster they may have seen/discovered yeah I'd feel my life was in danger.


Quote:
You have to admit that the case may not be as cut and dry as the zim defenders think..right? I'd like to hear from more of zim defenders too.
From what I read I seee this. Zimmerman was doing his neighborhood patrol, he spots Martin, whom apparently spots Zimmerman watching him and starts to lock eyes and walk towards him only to then run off. Zimmerman makes a short attempt to follow but is told by police he does not have to do that, Zimmerman responses ok or something of that nature. States that he has lost sight of the guy and does not know where he is currently located.

Based upon that it appears as though Martin could very well have gotten away if he had desired. Martin made no attempt to contact the police, no attempt to call his father. The simple fact that Martin is cited to have made it away and then they later end up in a fist fight? Hmm unless Martin turned around to go back to Zimmerman, I do not believe it's responable to believe Zimmerman was the only way between his destination and where he stood.
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:59 AM   #277
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How in the hell is that "reaching"? The official police transcripts cite Zimmerman stating he lost site of Martin and didn't know where he was. Now saying that Zimmerman was still in Martin's view is stretching because if that were the case why didn't Martin dial 911, call his father, etc?
Heh..so in your world, it was all martin's fault. He should have called the cops or his dad? Recall he was on the fone with gf at the time...and he was 17. I guess you will stoop to any level to defend zim...wow

Quote:
Everyone acting as if Zimmerman saw some black guy and that set off this desire to cause trouble is essentially.
"Everyone"...when did I say that? I have not heard anyone say "zim woke up that morning, feeling he wanted to shoot someone"..now that is premeditated. IMHO zim's adrenaline got flowing during the fight and shot martin.

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Man really? If your wrestling around with a guy and you have a gun on you that other peson can use it too you know. So if someone attacked me and was beating on me, while I had a pistol in a holster they may have seen/discovered yeah I'd feel my life was in danger.
Again, you are adding things to the case. At no point zim mentioned he feared martin was going for his gun. Wouldn't that be in the police report?!? And you are assuming that martin attacked zim, it could have been the other way around. Besides I thought he "feared for his life" due to losing the fight, now you are moving the goal posts by saying he feared due to the possibility of martin using zim's gun altho that was never mentioned. That is hilarious
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:53 PM   #278
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Hunh?? Zim had the gun, so why would he fear for his life? You have to admit that the case may not be as cut and dry as the zim defenders think..right? I'd like to hear from more of zim defenders too.
What if Martin was trying to wrestle the gun away from him.
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Old 04-15-2012, 01:02 PM   #279
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Also the official police transcripts you hear Zimmerman say he lost sight of Martin. If Martin was just so scared why didn't he run home when he had lost Zimmerman or call his dad/cops.

If Zimmerman had premeditated murder on his mind why was he engaged in a fiat fight prior to shooting him?

If someone jumped on you and started beating on you and there was a gun in the mix its reasonable to fear for your life.
Zimmerman says he doesn't know where Martin is, but said he might be anywhere, which is why he refused to give out his address over the phone. He then intimated that he was going to continue pursuing Martin. Martin had no idea who Zimmerman was. Only that he was being legitimately stalked by a strange man in the middle of the night. It's the stuff of movies. How can ou even presume to ascribe what trayvon should have done to handle his stalker?
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Old 04-15-2012, 01:04 PM   #280
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I mean flat out, if tray on was a girl and beat up a strange man stalking her in the middle of the night, she would be called a hero who wouldn't just lay down and be raped. Why is this different?
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