Evil Avatar  




Go Back   Evil Avatar > Daily Gaming News > News Items

» Sponsored Links


» Recent Threads
The Hunger Games:...
Last post by KlausFlouride
Today 08:34 AM
8 Replies, 1,133 Views
ArcheAge - Launch Trailer
Last post by KlausFlouride
Today 08:32 AM
13 Replies, 790 Views
Destiny Expands with a...
Last post by Evil Avatar
Today 08:28 AM
25 Replies, 1,397 Views
Vrvana Announces Oculus...
Last post by KlausFlouride
Today 08:25 AM
13 Replies, 1,050 Views
Comic Release List -...
Last post by Evil Avatar
Today 08:24 AM
2 Replies, 3 Views
Front Page Sports...
Last post by gzsfrk
Today 08:08 AM
5 Replies, 746 Views
Are Video Games Sexist?
Last post by Venkman
Today 07:09 AM
26 Replies, 3,240 Views
IFred Confirms...
Last post by Rommel
Today 01:46 AM
86 Replies, 6,017 Views
» Promotion


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-07-2007, 09:21 PM   #161
Johan
sub-$20 Gamer
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 11,918
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerxes
Then you add to the thing I fear with digital distribution. No depreciation in the price of games. No sales. I voiced it before but you just point out how much that one option could truly suck. No going down in price at all.
That's a good point. And add to that the fact that digital versions of disk-based games aren't cheaper to begin with...usually costing the same price as disk-based games...and without the ability of the consumer to resell the game in the future!
Johan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2007, 09:26 PM   #162
Xerxes
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan123
That's a good point. And add to that the fact that digital versions of disk-based games aren't cheaper to begin with...usually costing the same price as disk-based games...and without the ability of the consumer to resell the game in the future!
Games should go down a great deal in price when(I would say 'if' but that's where the signs are pointing) they go that route. I mean they cut out a great deal of middle man there. I mean $20+ is the price you would pay for a expansion pack in store. Why is it that much on Live? Sure as hell not passing the savings on to us.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2007, 10:55 PM   #163
Jack B
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Danville, CA
Posts: 3,079
Has anyone seen the Microsoft/Epic contract yet? Since, I'm in software sales management I have to read and/or negotiate many million dollar plus contracts in the course of a year. Many posting in this thread don't read contracts of this type and are simplifying how these deals get structured.

I'm guessing no one on EvAv has seen the Microsoft/Epic contract. For the record, those contracts can be very long and contain specifics around things like:

1. Who makes how much money and on what products, sequels, downloadble content, accessories, marketing items (ie Lunch Boxes), who owns the movie rights, book rights, etc.
2. Who makes how much in what countries....
3. Who makes how much for how long (ie how many years if there are limitations)
4. What kind of incentives exisit for different revenue, profit, unit sales metrics etc.

These are just some of the pieces of a software development contract. The publishers often control many of the decisions.

Who knows, maybe Mark Rein gave away the rights to the profits on the downloadable content in return for some other consideration knowing full well, they wouldn't charge anyway. Then later issues a statement, that they want to give it away, but Microsoft won't let them. He looks like a good guy and Microsoft looks like greedy bastards. The catch is, in that scenario, it wasn't his "product" to give away.

Maybe Microsoft said, "OK, we'll give away the revenue/profits on the downloadable maps you were paid to produce in the contract, but you'll have to give back a percentage of your deal...".

Bottomline. 95% of the publishers out there have charged for their maps. Microsoft is getting shit on here, because Epic was a loose cannon. That's bullshit from a business partner perspective. I'd be pissed as hell if I were Microsoft. Any publisher would. Epic has a reputation for being controversal. This isn't changing it much.

I'd love to see the maps for free, but we don't know the full story here and I don't think we ever will.
__________________
Live: Jack B
PSN: Jack_B1
Zune: Jack B

"If I had to make video gamers happy for a living, I'd kill myself."
Jack B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2007, 11:19 PM   #164
Magnanimous Gnome
Pickles!
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Twin Cities
Posts: 4,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackZero
Why do you need the elite? Are you holding out from playing games unless it has HDMI? Why not just buy a 360 premium? (confused.)
It has nothing to do with HDMI. I don't want to go into a big explanation, as I've already repeated myself on this a number of times. Basically I think that the price they are charging for a bigger HD is insane. The price of the current HD is already way too high, and now they are charging even more? On top of that it does nothing to fix the hardware problems that the current 360 has. Like I said before, I want a 360, but I do not want to support this kind of BS, and I don't want to buy a platform that has a reputation for dying an untimely death.

My main beef with the "Elite" is the price. It just seems completely unnecessary. I'd have no problem if it was $400. The 360 was already expensive, making it more so just seems like a bad move to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan123
It really is horrible how expensive it is to get in on the action. If you want to get all five major platforms (PS3, 360, Wii, DS, PSP) you're looking at a minimum price of just over $1,300 with only the pack-in Wii Sports as a game. Then you're shelling out $50-70 for the three consoles' games (less for the handhelds, but still expensive).

The games do go down in price, thankfully, but it's still freaking expensive, and very depressing as a result. I don't know how a typical person can afford all the platforms, really...

Exactly. I paid around $1,200 dollars for a great PC in early 2002, when the PC market was still flooded with games that I wanted and really enjoyed playing. I also bought a Cube for $150. Between the two I got a ton of great gaming and had a the huge bonus of Internet access and all the other things you can do with a PC.

Now I'm not interested in where the PC market has gone, and there isn't one next-gen console that fulfills all of my gaming needs. Add to that the fact that the 360 and PS3 are both expensive, and it puts me in the unpleasant situation of holding off for price drops and missing out on a lot of great gaming in the process. I haven't been gaming much at all lately simply because I think it's all become way too expensive. I'm still playing my Cube, but there obviously isn't anything new there to entertain me, so once I finish a few more titles I'll be left high and dry until some serious price drops take place.

More than anything I'm just frustrated by all of this. I'd love to get a 360 and play on Live with you guys, but I can't in good conscience support stuff like this that I just don't agree with.




As some other posters have already mentioned, a lot of us called this when the 360 and the Marketplace was announced. I was very vocal then about how I knew this was going to lead to bad things and wasn't good for gamers. Here we are two years or so after Marketplace was announced, and there has been plenty of evidence that the MP wasn't such a great thing. Great content is one thing, but rewarding loyal customers has gone out the window in favor of charging for every little thing. As if a $10 increase in game prices and $50/year for who-knows-what wasn't enough.
__________________
GamerTag - MagGnome
SteamID - MagGnome

Rini's official EvAv GBF
Forbidden Fruit

If you're not spanking during sex, you're not doing it right. ~~Lord_Don
Magnanimous Gnome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2007, 11:21 PM   #165
Magnanimous Gnome
Pickles!
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Twin Cities
Posts: 4,208
It's rather strange that earlier today I posted about how I've though about leaving the site, and then proceeded to make more posts in a single day than I have in quite some time - not to mention some very lengthy posts at that.

I think I need help.
__________________
GamerTag - MagGnome
SteamID - MagGnome

Rini's official EvAv GBF
Forbidden Fruit

If you're not spanking during sex, you're not doing it right. ~~Lord_Don
Magnanimous Gnome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2007, 11:23 PM   #166
TrackZero
秘密のプロジェクト
 
TrackZero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 7,759
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnanimous Gnome
It has nothing to do with HDMI. I don't want to go into a big explanation, as I've already repeated myself on this a number of times. Basically I think that the price they are charging for a bigger HD is insane. The price of the current HD is already way too high, and now they are charging even more? On top of that it does nothing to fix the hardware problems that the current 360 has. Like I said before, I want a 360, but I do not want to support this kind of BS, and I don't want to buy a platform that has a reputation for dying an untimely death.

My main beef with the "Elite" is the price. It just seems completely unnecessary. I'd have no problem if it was $400. The 360 was already expensive, making it more so just seems like a bad move to me.
Ah. Well, I guess I can understand. It's definitely a silly move on their part, but it doesn't change the system or the games. It's just another SKU. At this point, if I didn't own one, I'd be waiting until the fall anyways for the 65nm processor 360s to come out.
TrackZero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2007, 11:28 PM   #167
Magnanimous Gnome
Pickles!
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Twin Cities
Posts: 4,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackZero
Ah. Well, I guess I can understand. It's definitely a silly move on their part, but it doesn't change the system or the games. It's just another SKU. At this point, if I didn't own one, I'd be waiting until the fall anyways for the 65nm processor 360s to come out.

That's what I'm waiting for. I'm disappointed that the Elite doesn't have the new processor and (hopefully) quieter drive. Without those it seems unnecessary, especially at a higher price.
__________________
GamerTag - MagGnome
SteamID - MagGnome

Rini's official EvAv GBF
Forbidden Fruit

If you're not spanking during sex, you're not doing it right. ~~Lord_Don
Magnanimous Gnome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2007, 11:35 PM   #168
TrackZero
秘密のプロジェクト
 
TrackZero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 7,759
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnanimous Gnome
That's what I'm waiting for. I'm disappointed that the Elite doesn't have the new processor and (hopefully) quieter drive. Without those it seems unnecessary, especially at a higher price.
Yup. MS is letting it's greed get in the way on this one, and it may cost them what they could have had. Though most sales for the year won't kick back in until the fall anyways, so having a "limited edition" version to ride them through the summer may not be that stupid after all. But it certainly doesn't help the consumer.
TrackZero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2007, 01:31 AM   #169
Xerxes
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack B
Has anyone seen the Microsoft/Epic contract yet? Since, I'm in software sales management I have to read and/or negotiate many million dollar plus contracts in the course of a year. Many posting in this thread don't read contracts of this type and are simplifying how these deals get structured.

I'm guessing no one on EvAv has seen the Microsoft/Epic contract. For the record, those contracts can be very long and contain specifics around things like:

1. Who makes how much money and on what products, sequels, downloadble content, accessories, marketing items (ie Lunch Boxes), who owns the movie rights, book rights, etc.
2. Who makes how much in what countries....
3. Who makes how much for how long (ie how many years if there are limitations)
4. What kind of incentives exisit for different revenue, profit, unit sales metrics etc.

These are just some of the pieces of a software development contract. The publishers often control many of the decisions.

Who knows, maybe Mark Rein gave away the rights to the profits on the downloadable content in return for some other consideration knowing full well, they wouldn't charge anyway. Then later issues a statement, that they want to give it away, but Microsoft won't let them. He looks like a good guy and Microsoft looks like greedy bastards. The catch is, in that scenario, it wasn't his "product" to give away.

Maybe Microsoft said, "OK, we'll give away the revenue/profits on the downloadable maps you were paid to produce in the contract, but you'll have to give back a percentage of your deal...".

Bottomline. 95% of the publishers out there have charged for their maps. Microsoft is getting shit on here, because Epic was a loose cannon. That's bullshit from a business partner perspective. I'd be pissed as hell if I were Microsoft. Any publisher would. Epic has a reputation for being controversal. This isn't changing it much.

I'd love to see the maps for free, but we don't know the full story here and I don't think we ever will.
Like I said the publisher MS is understandable. But we are all thinking it's Live MS that wants to force paying for stuff on us.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2007, 01:37 AM   #170
xarmerlyn
Death Knight
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 56
So a game makes hardware sales for you, gets tons of subscribers into your micro transaction revenue stream, but then you don't allow them to support their release as they have supported their previous titles? I guess 2 big wins isn't as sweet as 3 big wins. Heck, charge a bunch for a HD which they will pay again to fill with content. Revenue within revenue, perfect.

It's getting so I can't contemplate buying any of the next gen systems.
xarmerlyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2007, 02:40 AM   #171
Heretic Machine
Peon
 
Heretic Machine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack B
Has anyone seen the Microsoft/Epic contract yet? Since, I'm in software sales management I have to read and/or negotiate many million dollar plus contracts in the course of a year. Many posting in this thread don't read contracts of this type and are simplifying how these deals get structured.

I'm guessing no one on EvAv has seen the Microsoft/Epic contract. For the record, those contracts can be very long and contain specifics around things like:

1. Who makes how much money and on what products, sequels, downloadble content, accessories, marketing items (ie Lunch Boxes), who owns the movie rights, book rights, etc.
2. Who makes how much in what countries....
3. Who makes how much for how long (ie how many years if there are limitations)
4. What kind of incentives exisit for different revenue, profit, unit sales metrics etc.

These are just some of the pieces of a software development contract. The publishers often control many of the decisions.

Who knows, maybe Mark Rein gave away the rights to the profits on the downloadable content in return for some other consideration knowing full well, they wouldn't charge anyway. Then later issues a statement, that they want to give it away, but Microsoft won't let them. He looks like a good guy and Microsoft looks like greedy bastards. The catch is, in that scenario, it wasn't his "product" to give away.

Maybe Microsoft said, "OK, we'll give away the revenue/profits on the downloadable maps you were paid to produce in the contract, but you'll have to give back a percentage of your deal...".

Bottomline. 95% of the publishers out there have charged for their maps. Microsoft is getting shit on here, because Epic was a loose cannon. That's bullshit from a business partner perspective. I'd be pissed as hell if I were Microsoft. Any publisher would. Epic has a reputation for being controversal. This isn't changing it much.

I'd love to see the maps for free, but we don't know the full story here and I don't think we ever will.
Again... companies that produce content for games that aren't published by Microsoft are always being strong-armed to charge for content that they want to release for free. This has nothing to do with the profits from GoW content, this has everything to do with conditioning people to pay for stuff that they would normally be getting for free, because Microsoft has a monopoly on the 360 platform. I'd love to see them try this shit on the PC, I really would, see how far they get there.
__________________
City of Heroes: Virtue
WoW: Cenarion Circle
Gamertag: Heretic Machine
Currently Playing: Castle Crashers, Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time, Beyond Good & Evil
Heretic Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2007, 05:30 AM   #172
Mark Rein
Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 54
Folks,

I think you guys are blowing this up into something bigger than it is. Please listen to the entire podcast before jumping to conclusions.

What we have here is simply a difference of opinion on how to maximize the return on Gears of War - something both Epic and Microsoft want to do. While we create products like Gears because we love games, and we have a passion for making them, at the end of the day this is a business for both companies and how we earn our living.

Epic thinks the way to maximize the return on Gears of War is to give the maps away for free and Microsoft thinks the way to maximize the return on Gears of War is to sell the maps. So what we’ve agreed to do is to put these maps on sale at a reasonable price then make them free a few months later. They did this with the original Halo2 map pack and it was a huge success. Lots of people bought the maps and lots of people downloaded them when they became free. That’s what is going to happen and it seems like a fair compromise for both companies and a win-win for Gears players.

Why does Epic not have control over this even though we created this content on our own time and our own dime? Quite frankly Xbox Live Marketplace isn’t our store. It’s Microsoft’s store. Like any retailer they have the right to figure out what goes on the shelves of their store and what price they sell it at. They spend the money to operate the store and deliver the content. They’ve also spent billions of dollars to create and build Xbox and subsidize it’s the price so you can afford it and we can make games for it. As our publisher, they also invested tens of millions of dollars marketing Gears of War, and have done an awesome job for us, so they have a right to a good return on that investment.

As Tim Sweeney and I said in the podcast, we want the download economy to work – it is something the industry needs, something we hope to use in the future, something that will help bring more variety to end-users and ultimately could help bring prices down for end-users. If we had to put this map pack on a disc and sell it in retail it would be more expensive to end-users and maybe we wouldn't have done it because of all the extra work and cost involved.

In the mean time we are planning to bring out an awesome new Gears of War multi-player gametype called Annex that works will all of the existing multi-player maps and the new pack we're talking about here. The 1UP guys who got to play it a few weeks ago left the office raving about how it could be our best Gears gametype yet and I think a lot of people will enjoy it. Best of all, it is totally FREE and will come in the new Gears update that we expect to see released this week.

Last edited by Mark Rein; 04-08-2007 at 05:55 AM..
Mark Rein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2007, 05:36 AM   #173
Gorvi
Dark Resistant
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Dunedin, Florida
Posts: 8,061
My god it is so nice to see a post like that, Mark. I'm not a huge fan of the games you guys do (they're not really my main genre of interst), but you guys have my respect in every way for the way you communicate with the community.
Gorvi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2007, 06:24 AM   #174
fitbabits
The Cat Whisperer
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rein
Folks,

I think you guys are blowing this up into something bigger than it is. Please listen to the entire podcast before jumping to conclusions.

What we have here is simply a difference of opinion on how to maximize the return on Gears of War - something both Epic and Microsoft want to do. While we create products like Gears because we love games, and we have a passion for making them, at the end of the day this is a business for both companies and how we earn our living.

Epic thinks the way to maximize the return on Gears of War is to give the maps away for free and Microsoft thinks the way to maximize the return on Gears of War is to sell the maps. So what we’ve agreed to do is to put these maps on sale at a reasonable price then make them free a few months later. They did this with the original Halo2 map pack and it was a huge success. Lots of people bought the maps and lots of people downloaded them when they became free. That’s what is going to happen and it seems like a fair compromise for both companies and a win-win for Gears players.

Why does Epic not have control over this even though we created this content on our own time and our own dime? Quite frankly Xbox Live Marketplace isn’t our store. It’s Microsoft’s store. Like any retailer they have the right to figure out what goes on the shelves of their store and what price they sell it at. They spend the money to operate the store and deliver the content. They’ve also spent billions of dollars to create and build Xbox and subsidize it’s the price so you can afford it and we can make games for it. As our publisher, they also invested tens of millions of dollars marketing Gears of War, and have done an awesome job for us, so they have a right to a good return on that investment.

As Tim Sweeney and I said in the podcast, we want the download economy to work – it is something the industry needs, something we hope to use in the future, something that will help bring more variety to end-users and ultimately could help bring prices down for end-users. If we had to put this map pack on a disc and sell it in retail it would be more expensive to end-users and maybe we wouldn't have done it because of all the extra work and cost involved.

In the mean time we are planning to bring out an awesome new Gears of War multi-player gametype called Annex that works will all of the existing multi-player maps and the new pack we're talking about here. The 1UP guys who got to play it a few weeks ago left the office raving about how it could be our best Gears gametype yet and I think a lot of people will enjoy it. Best of all, it is totally FREE and will come in the new Gears update that we expect to see released this week.
Thanks for the clarification, and also for taking the time to inform the community. It's greatly appreciated.
fitbabits is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2007, 07:44 AM   #175
Johan
sub-$20 Gamer
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 11,918
Mark Rein: Awesome! Taking the time to let us know directly, and working so hard to forge a pretty happy compromise with the maps...one which will make everyone happy except the crankiest amongst us, I'm sure...really says a lot. I for one appreciate your dropping in here to let us know. It does not go unnoticed, and it is appreciated.

Keep up the good work. GoW is terrific. Now, get busy on GoW2 already!!!
Johan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2007, 08:34 AM   #176
Jack B
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Danville, CA
Posts: 3,079
Mark, gotta love your willingness to step up and address your fans. And believe me, you have a ton of Gears fans on this site! Like many I've logged 50 hours or more.

You're probably painfully aware of this already, but even the slightest bit of information given to the media and/or internet gaming forums gets ripped to pieces. Conclusions are drawn faster than a chainsaw through a Horde. It's painfull to watch some of conclusions drawn without the facts.

Also, glad you re-inforced the "this is a business" message. Until I see every developer, both good and bad generating 2x typical earnings, I'd say we're being charged what is typically fair for the costs of getting a game to the consumer. Costs associated with getting games to consumers are not trivial, although many here think all publishers and developers are "rolling" in the profits. It's easy to make games... Yeah, right.

Epic's post game support is... well... Epic and Gears is a value to me whether the extra content is ultimately charged for or not! I'm fine either way. Keep up the good work!

You've been rewarded financially with Gears, but there are no guarantee's in the business and every title has risk associated with it. I'd imagine it's not as easy as it looks.

PS - I should listen to the podcast and will.
__________________
Live: Jack B
PSN: Jack_B1
Zune: Jack B

"If I had to make video gamers happy for a living, I'd kill myself."

Last edited by Jack B; 04-08-2007 at 09:47 AM..
Jack B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2007, 08:56 AM   #177
Serapth
Should, but doesn't care
 
Serapth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Area 52
Posts: 6,790
Nah, nah, I was right!

That is all.


Nice post Mark.
__________________
I am the face of Boe.
Serapth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2007, 09:32 AM   #178
Xerxes
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Holy shit, I didn't think summoning Mark Rein would actually work.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2007, 09:33 AM   #179
the soUL TRAder
Evil Dead
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Detroit
Posts: 852
Ditto on the high level of respect for the post MarkRein, thanks for the time.

Makes me want to run out and find a good deal on Gears .

Anyway, I appreciate, as a consumer, that you'll take the time to share the challenges of making great games while still paying mortgages; sometimes it's a hard sell to consumers who seem to want it all, want it all free and still want to tell you how bad it was when done. Nice to see you're still willing to give it a try. GoodFortune to Epic!, I says.
__________________
Absolute truth hurts, absolutely!
the soUL TRAder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2007, 09:51 AM   #180
Dag-Sabot
Evil Dead
 
Dag-Sabot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Hai Shi Dao Hotsprings
Posts: 3,892
ok and now for the counter point.. I summon: Bill gates!
__________________
...using emotionally-laden bold fonts.
Dag-Sabot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:34 AM.