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Old 09-10-2013, 12:49 PM   #21
Korialstrazs
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There are many many f2p games, even ios games, where they would be improved if they were not f2p. I think to myself many times while playing these, if I could just give them like $40-50 and never hear about any of their stupid energy, locked doors, keys, chests and all that crap again I would gladly play this game! A majority of f2p games will cost you FAR FAR FAR more than you would pay with a buy/sub model if you want to enjoy the game to the same extent.

The devs behind league of legends and path of exile both know that they make more money by keeping their userbase happy and producing great looking customization options. At this point those two are rolling stones and the only thing that will stop them from making money is if the company puts any sort of paywall in its path. Let your customers play your game, fall in love with their character, let them see the nice things in your shop and hope they care enough about your game/company to want to pay money for shiny.

Most other f2p games will try to force you towards the cash shop every 10-15 minutes or so. Want to craft? Good luck without cash shop crafting mats. Want to level up your gear? If you don't buy consumables from the cash shop you'll break it. Run out of bag space because we supply none and our game drops a zillion stupid trash drops? Want another character? A mount? Want to do anything in our end game? Run out of energy? You just got a chest! Pay us to open it!
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Old 09-10-2013, 12:55 PM   #22
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Personally I think this is a fantastic move. Your a developer and I suppose F2P can be very profitable but the downside in my experience is the game is designed around the F2P model and not around what's F2P (FUN to play).

I can't think of a single example where the F2P induced features improve the gameplay, anything outside pointless cosmetic changes negatively impact without exception.
It's not entirely about profits, it's about getting your game out to people and letting them play it - letting the players tell you what your game is worth to them. Then continually improving the game in a live environment where feedback matters - as opposed to just packaging everything up in a box and shoving it out the door and not having to care because you have everyone's money.
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Old 09-10-2013, 02:06 PM   #23
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I've enjoyed the hell out of DDO's F2P model since 2009. Yeah there are things that irk me but overall it's been a lot of fun.
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Old 09-10-2013, 02:09 PM   #24
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It's amazing how one act of "good will" can erase a lifetime of deceit in the minds of the masses.
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Old 09-10-2013, 02:22 PM   #25
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It's amazing how one act of "good will" can erase a lifetime of deceit in the minds of the masses.
Sho'nuff! 10characters.
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Old 09-10-2013, 04:52 PM   #26
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I don't believe we call ourselves hardcore gamers and all I hear is about league of legends, the most casual game since facebook games.

People, if you said TF2 and Dota2 (and others) were good examples of F2P, then I would have agreed.
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Old 09-10-2013, 06:16 PM   #27
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Except plenty of people did. And the whole "gaming strata" theory of what makes a gamer "hardcore" is total bullshit of the highest order.
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Old 09-10-2013, 06:30 PM   #28
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I don't believe we call ourselves hardcore gamers and all I hear is about league of legends, the most casual game since facebook games.

People, if you said TF2 and Dota2 (and others) were good examples of F2P, then I would have agreed.
Mentioned by yours truly earlier in the thread.
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:19 AM   #29
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It's not entirely about profits, it's about getting your game out to people and letting them play it - letting the players tell you what your game is worth to them. Then continually improving the game in a live environment where feedback matters - as opposed to just packaging everything up in a box and shoving it out the door and not having to care because you have everyone's money.
Yes free does certainly get people to play your game.. doesn't mean they will spend any money. Also with a packaged product I think there is a bit more onus and expectations of a quality product (yeah not always true) and hence pressure on the developer. Yet F2P developers always have the trump card of "well its free" if stuff doesn't work to hide behind.... Yes I suppose it will balance out with F2P if its too broken people leave and don't pay any money.

I've seen the odd comment around TF2 etc being F2P but I'm really getting at mechanisms added to pay for them that are always at best neutral all the way through to breaking the game.

Most F2P pay models are pointless cosmetic changes or they design the game around a grind mechanic right through to full pay to win. None of these mechanisms improve gameplay in fact they hinder it as your designing to these restrictive models. At least with pay to play the designer is free to make the game they want.

The only place where money is not 100% of the focus is the indy scene hence its where the good gaming action is now, mainstream is far too expensive for it to be anything else.
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Old 09-11-2013, 01:05 PM   #30
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I swear I am so sick and tired of whiners complaining about "pay 2 win" (not that you're whining, but the argument is baseless and nauseating). You get to play a game for free, and 99% of the time any monetized items that improve stats or grant extra abilities are things you can get for free if you're willing to put in THE TIME. You are paying for TIME. However long it takes to get what you want - if that price is worth your time - is a bargain. It's not paying to win, it's buying off your own impatience.

Yes, the argument that many F2Ps make the cycle a grind is valid, and they're doing it wrong. There should never be a "pay wall" at any point, and the item store should be tucked away in some corner so as to make you feel lucky that you even found it... almost like a secret black market. Everything in that market should feel like a good investment - something that will still matter and be desirable several months of patches and content updates down the road. Regardless of what metrics say works, the experience is all that matters. Honestly if I had the time I'd dedicate a whole thread to the good and bad of F2P and call out a lot of the BS on the stigma that it has unjustifiably earned. The goal of F2P isn't about making you pay, it's about you paying for something you enjoy, and I agree that no one enjoys someone pushing an advertisement in your face every five minutes for a $2 kickdown. But "pay to win"... 99% is bullshit, it's urban legend, it's some whiny brat's jealous excuse for being lazy and not putting in the time or effort for the reward.
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Old 09-11-2013, 01:40 PM   #31
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I swear I am so sick and tired of whiners complaining about "pay 2 win" (not that you're whining, but the argument is baseless and nauseating). You get to play a game for free, and 99% of the time any monetized items that improve stats or grant extra abilities are things you can get for free if you're willing to put in THE TIME. You are paying for TIME. However long it takes to get what you want - if that price is worth your time - is a bargain. It's not paying to win, it's buying off your own impatience.

Yes, the argument that many F2Ps make the cycle a grind is valid, and they're doing it wrong. There should never be a "pay wall" at any point, and the item store should be tucked away in some corner so as to make you feel lucky that you even found it... almost like a secret black market. Everything in that market should feel like a good investment - something that will still matter and be desirable several months of patches and content updates down the road. Regardless of what metrics say works, the experience is all that matters. Honestly if I had the time I'd dedicate a whole thread to the good and bad of F2P and call out a lot of the BS on the stigma that it has unjustifiably earned. The goal of F2P isn't about making you pay, it's about you paying for something you enjoy, and I agree that no one enjoys someone pushing an advertisement in your face every five minutes for a $2 kickdown. But "pay to win"... 99% is bullshit, it's urban legend, it's some whiny brat's jealous excuse for being lazy and not putting in the time or effort for the reward.

Hey look everyone another developer throwing a fit like a little girl. These tears are exceptionally delicious.

The F2P fantasy pie in the sky game you described has never existed and most likely never will. Modern developers can't even balance their weapons/gear at all let alone keep that balance with new content. That right there is another critical issue with these kind of games. They're rarely planned out very well and most rely on copy and pasted assets with new skins and maybe some modified variables.
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Old 09-11-2013, 02:35 PM   #32
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Hey look everyone another developer throwing a fit like a little girl. These tears are exceptionally delicious.

The F2P fantasy pie in the sky game you described has never existed and most likely never will. Modern developers can't even balance their weapons/gear at all let alone keep that balance with new content. That right there is another critical issue with these kind of games. They're rarely planned out very well and most rely on copy and pasted assets with new skins and maybe some modified variables.
Tantrum? Please. You wouldn't be so quick to toss out your knee-jerk insults if I wasn't ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. I call it like I see it, and again, I feel sorry for you. As for balance, how would you know? You don't even play. Step up with a meaningful counterpoint or go find some porn.
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Old 09-11-2013, 04:01 PM   #33
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I'm perfectly content without F2P, as long as there is a suitable demo. Without it, ~85% of the time that means no purchase from me. The exceptions tend to only come from 1) cheap games, 2) known franchises (to me) or 3) strong personal recommendations.

Although, "Let's Play" videos are helping to change that. I still prefer demos to give it a personal test-drive.
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Old 09-11-2013, 04:26 PM   #34
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Tantrum? Please. You wouldn't be so quick to toss out your knee-jerk insults if I wasn't ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. I call it like I see it, and again, I feel sorry for you. As for balance, how would you know? You don't even play. Step up with a meaningful counterpoint or go find some porn.
Keep crying so I can use your tears as lube. Pieces of shit like you are why most games are terrible.

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I call it like I see it, and again, I feel sorry for you. As for balance, how would you know? You don't even play. Step up with a meaningful counterpoint or go find some porn.
Just like your meaningful comments right? I love the ignorance you are displaying right now.
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Old 09-11-2013, 04:35 PM   #35
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Wow.. that was some serious and undeserved hating on Mr. Lake.... Where the hell did that come from?

It's not like you're both wrong or right. Mr. Lake's idea about F2P is pretty spot on, and there are some developers who follow his plan. But Suidical is also right in that many OTHER developers enact the pay wall without thinking twice about it. You'll find it more in the mobile gaming environment than on traditional consoles and PC games, but there's a TON of P2W games out there.
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Old 09-11-2013, 05:06 PM   #36
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Keep crying so I can use your tears as lube. Pieces of shit like you are why most games are terrible.
Just the sort of response I expect from a 14-year-old troll.

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Just like your meaningful comments right? I love the ignorance you are displaying right now.
No, I love the ignorance YOU are displaying right now. You puff up like a good blowfish and offer no substance. You like to say things like "Pieces of shit like you are why most games are terrible" without knowing what that statement even means. You certainly can't justify it by any stretch of imagination, so tell you what... I'm going to overlook your obvious issues with internet coprolalia and move on. There are plenty of awesome people on these forums who can have an actual conversation without being uncontrollably insulting and stubbornly ignorant.
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Old 09-11-2013, 05:10 PM   #37
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Begun, the Flame Wars has.

OT - reiterating there are some good F2P games - TF2, DOTA2, LoL, Path of Exile. Is that a lot? Nope. But it's not too shabby, either. I'm confident more will follow suit.
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Old 09-11-2013, 06:16 PM   #38
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TF2 was not originally F2P, and I would argue that DOTA2 would not have been as successful with it if they hadn't been able to experiment with the model for TF2. Not trying to counter your argument, just pointing out that it's not something that's always easy to implement well, especially out of the gate, or without experience.
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:33 PM   #39
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The DOTA model isn't anything like the TF2 model, though......

However, TF2 used to be an orange box extra that you got with fucking Halflife and Portal, which made Orange Box probably the best value in gaming ever for all time. And then it was just a regular old game. Then they broke it out into its own game on Steam, and a few years later, it was free to hats.

Honestly, that's probably how the curve should go for most new games. Start off as pay to play, when the fan base lags, switch over to F2P and get some new blood in.
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Old 09-12-2013, 05:30 AM   #40
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glad this isn't going to be another piece of shit f2p game. I would have never tried it if it were so. Only thing that bums me is that they don't have the relic name anymore. That whole company is what made excellent polished games.

f2p is shit
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