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Old 06-13-2013, 11:43 AM   #121
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:02 PM   #122
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but to have Killer Instinct free was a nice touch. Not to mention I think the buy characters is a cool idea.
Killer Instinct isn't free unless you plan on using one character, which would be...an interesting approach...for a fighting game.

It's arguable whether 'buying' the characters is a good idea or not. I will agree with you if the total cost of the characters is the same as what the game would have ordinarily cost at retail as a full title. If they're looking to turn a $60 game into a $100 game after you've bought all the characters that one would expect of a base fighting game, I'd say it's a screw job. We'll see on that one!
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:16 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Terran View Post
Killer Instinct isn't free unless you plan on using one character, which would be...an interesting approach...for a fighting game.

It's arguable whether 'buying' the characters is a good idea or not. I will agree with you if the total cost of the characters is the same as what the game would have ordinarily cost at retail as a full title. If they're looking to turn a $60 game into a $100 game after you've bought all the characters that one would expect of a base fighting game, I'd say it's a screw job. We'll see on that one!
Its been said that there will be a package price for all the characters. I can't see them charging more than base game price of 60 dollars for that overall package, if they do, this model will fail immediately. But for gamers much like myself who gravitate towards only a few characters, its a nice model.
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:18 PM   #124
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Console gaming was and never will be about freedom.
You misunderstand the nature of freedom.

Freedom means the ability to do what you want with what you own, without interference from any outside parties, without needing permission from any outside party. It doesn't mean the ability to trample others' rights, only the obligation of others not to trample on yours and the state in which your rights are being respected.

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It's a console game, locked down by copy protection, usually region locks and more recently online pass and having half of the game as DLC locked to a specific account.
Being a digital object, that would protect your right to ownership of one copy and thus be in line with your freedom and ownership of that device. However, where they begin using DRM to remove ownership rights, such as resale, is where they began to step on your freedom and aggress against players ethically, acting as if they own the game instead of you. Simply because they can.

If you paid for access, you own access, and you can sell access, both ethically and should-be legally. Just like you can rent an apartment and then sub-let it all day long.

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Furthermore, even if the system fails, MS has the financial means to continue to support the thing at a loss
Then let them eat crow for the next 6 years and taste that bitterness that Sony ate last generation.

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I understand that everyone hate the online authentication and everything, but seriously, if you want to play those exclusives, don't buy used games and don't sell your games, and don't dive in the sticks like me with shit internet, I don't think most people will notice.
The erosion of rights is still an erosion, and still offensive, even if you had no intention of taking advantage of your ability.

Who of us isn't going to borrow a game or a movie now and then. You'd eventually come up against these restrictions.
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Old 06-13-2013, 02:28 PM   #125
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One of my coworkers just called me. He is a rabid MS fanboy who thinks they can do no wrong and Sony is an "scumbag" company that puts out systems that has no good games (in the meantime, all I am aware of that he plays, quite literally, is Halo and COD). He called to ask what system I was going to buy, suggesting he was "afraid" I was going to say the PS4. I gave him a verbal lambasting criticizing him for his mindless mindset that he would NEVER give Sony money based on things they've done in the past but he is perfectly ok with MS fucking him while he is a low income individual still living at home and that people like him are the reason gaming is going on a bad direction and that he is basically a sheep.

LOL that was just the gist of it. Let's just say after the verbal rape I handed him I don't expect a call back from anytime soon. I usually a very reasonable individual but what MS is doing is so scummy I can't even comprehend someone wanting to buy this system. That said, he is FAR more blindly loyal and hardheaded than most people.
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Old 06-13-2013, 03:09 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Terran View Post
Killer Instinct isn't free unless you plan on using one character, which would be...an interesting approach...for a fighting game.

It's arguable whether 'buying' the characters is a good idea or not. I will agree with you if the total cost of the characters is the same as what the game would have ordinarily cost at retail as a full title. If they're looking to turn a $60 game into a $100 game after you've bought all the characters that one would expect of a base fighting game, I'd say it's a screw job. We'll see on that one!
It's a model that works well with League of Legends. I'm not really suprised. And while its not really a fighting game, persay, it's certainly a model that could work. That being said, they are going to have a hell of time balancing it. If they don't, then it will become a pay to win game.
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Old 06-13-2013, 03:56 PM   #127
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You misunderstand the nature of freedom.

Freedom means the ability to do what you want with what you own, without interference from any outside parties, without needing permission from any outside party. It doesn't mean the ability to trample others' rights, only the obligation of others not to trample on yours and the state in which your rights are being respected.


Being a digital object, that would protect your right to ownership of one copy and thus be in line with your freedom and ownership of that device. However, where they begin using DRM to remove ownership rights, such as resale, is where they began to step on your freedom and aggress against players ethically, acting as if they own the game instead of you. Simply because they can.

If you paid for access, you own access, and you can sell access, both ethically and should-be legally. Just like you can rent an apartment and then sub-let it all day long.


Then let them eat crow for the next 6 years and taste that bitterness that Sony ate last generation.


The erosion of rights is still an erosion, and still offensive, even if you had no intention of taking advantage of your ability.

Who of us isn't going to borrow a game or a movie now and then. You'd eventually come up against these restrictions.
Random comments -- I stopped in a GameStop today for a bit. I am not a fan of GameStop but I was also very bored. I wanted to pick up Dark Souls if it didn't have an online pass. It doesn't, so I grabbed it for $20.

While I was in there (about 20 minutes), I heard at least two customers on the phone call and discuss the Xbox One with the GameStop employee. The GameStop employee was straight up talking trash to these people, saying things like "maybe because Xbox One sucks", etc., mentioning that everyone is canceling their Xbox One preorders to order PS4s.

They were also looping (on the in-store video system) the part of Sony's conference where they said they were not introducing any new restrictions on used games to thunderous applause (that had already been added to their in-store video queue).

Microsoft is going to pay for this. And they deserve to.
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Old 06-13-2013, 04:24 PM   #128
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Old 06-13-2013, 04:26 PM   #129
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Old 06-13-2013, 04:37 PM   #130
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Random comments -- I stopped in a GameStop today for a bit. I am not a fan of GameStop but I was also very bored. I wanted to pick up Dark Souls if it didn't have an online pass. It doesn't, so I grabbed it for $20.

While I was in there (about 20 minutes), I heard at least two customers on the phone call and discuss the Xbox One with the GameStop employee. The GameStop employee was straight up talking trash to these people, saying things like "maybe because Xbox One sucks", etc., mentioning that everyone is canceling their Xbox One preorders to order PS4s.

They were also looping (on the in-store video system) the part of Sony's conference where they said they were not introducing any new restrictions on used games to thunderous applause (that had already been added to their in-store video queue).

Microsoft is going to pay for this. And they deserve to.
Damn I hate GameStop. I am happy to have an alliance against Microsoft's new policies, but seriously. I went in there today. I was holding the Dark Souls box in the NEW RELEASES section. $19.99. I tell her that's what I would like to purchase.

I get home. It's the used copy. I saved $2! Wow, thanks assholes. They should be required to ask you if you want a used copy. Jebus.
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Old 06-13-2013, 04:38 PM   #131
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Damn I hate GameStop. I am happy to have an alliance against Microsoft's new policies, but seriously. I went in there today. I was holding the Dark Souls box in the NEW RELEASES section. $19.99. I tell her that's what I would like to purchase.

I get home. It's the used copy. I saved $2! Wow, thanks assholes. They should be required to ask you if you want a used copy. Jebus.
I called to inform her that I think they should ask people if they want a used copy rather than just slipping them one. She proceeds to act like it's my fault because that is not a new game, and they didn't have any new copies. Well excusssse me. It was on the new release wall. Arg.
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Old 06-13-2013, 05:15 PM   #132
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Not really. That statement was invalidated this morning. All Jack was saying is that publishers can continue to do what they do now -- online passes and the such.

Publishers can't put some kind of Microsoft style DRM into their games to prevent you from playing/trading/loaning/selling.

Once again, no one should be reading Polygon. Those people are idiots.
Actually, Sony allows publishers to lock single player games behind always on DRM. There are games like this today on the PS3. If you are not online, you are blocked from these games. So if the PS4 is like the PS3, Sony will allow publishers to lock content.

Btw, those same multiplatform games do not have that same DRM in the 360
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Old 06-13-2013, 05:31 PM   #133
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I will just drop this here. It is worth having to Like to see the result and vote, trust me:

https://www.facebook.com/AmazonVideo...1317646&rest=1

Bottom line if you are too lazy to click:

On an official Amazon.com Facebook poll, the PS4 is beating the Xbox One by a 23:1 ratio.
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Old 06-13-2013, 05:36 PM   #134
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Watch out lockwood, Ravijin seems to be winning the master photobomber war in this thread.
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Old 06-13-2013, 05:37 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by ElektroDragon View Post
I will just drop this here. It is worth having to Like to see the result and vote, trust me:

https://www.facebook.com/AmazonVideo...1317646&rest=1

Bottom line if you are too lazy to click:

On an official Amazon.com Facebook poll, the PS4 is beating the Xbox One by a 23:1 ratio.
Yikes. I'd love to see the actual pre order numbers from Amazon.
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Old 06-13-2013, 05:38 PM   #136
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Watch out lockwood, Ravijin seems to be winning the master photobomber war in this thread.
I'm learning from the master.
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:21 PM   #137
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You misunderstand the nature of freedom.

Freedom means the ability to do what you want with what you own, without interference from any outside parties, without needing permission from any outside party. It doesn't mean the ability to trample others' rights, only the obligation of others not to trample on yours and the state in which your rights are being respected.


Being a digital object, that would protect your right to ownership of one copy and thus be in line with your freedom and ownership of that device. However, where they begin using DRM to remove ownership rights, such as resale, is where they began to step on your freedom and aggress against players ethically, acting as if they own the game instead of you. Simply because they can.

If you paid for access, you own access, and you can sell access, both ethically and should-be legally. Just like you can rent an apartment and then sub-let it all day long.


Then let them eat crow for the next 6 years and taste that bitterness that Sony ate last generation.


The erosion of rights is still an erosion, and still offensive, even if you had no intention of taking advantage of your ability.

Who of us isn't going to borrow a game or a movie now and then. You'd eventually come up against these restrictions.
Umm.... You don't have any rights or freedom when you license software beyond those given to you by the licensee. I understand perfectly what freedom is, but if you enter a licensing agreement with a company (which happens pretty much every time you open a piece of software) you are bound by an EULA that happens to be buried inside. This has been common with console games this generation, and judging by my own collection much more common on PS3 (most of my games post 2009 have EULAs in the manual or on an insert).

Everyone is boohooing as if Microsoft it taking food out of their baby's mouth and pushing their mom down stairs. It's video games, and it isn't really important. You have no rights with licensed software unless they are given to you, and the licensee often puts in a clause that they can change your rights at any time. Guess what... Sony has a track record of changing your rights. So keep using your freedom to tell tales about how Sony is the savior of video games and how MS is victimizing people by enforcing something those people are agreeing to.

Also... Most apartments have leases that prevent subletting it. Those same leases would limit you in other ways, like, you can't sell that apartment, because you don't own it. Or maybe you can't have cats, listen to loud music after 8, shit in the tub, or paint the walls without permission. So yeah, you totally got me there. Ouch. Oh wait, that's exactly the same thing as agreeing to license software and then acting like you own it! MS isn't taking something away from people, they are agreeing to a contract that defines what people can do. Don't agree to the contract, fine, go somewhere else and see if you get a better deal. That's the open market that you love so much right there.

For a person who sees the ideal world to be one where everything is done through private contracts, you seam to have a hard time understanding what they are, how they affect you, and that you are obligated to follow them if you agreed to them in the first place, regardless of their "ethical" standing. What sort of ethics is it to agree to terms and then violate them because you don't think they are "right".
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Old 06-13-2013, 10:04 PM   #138
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One of my coworkers just called me. He is a rabid MS fanboy who thinks they can do no wrong and Sony is an "scumbag" company that puts out systems that has no good games (in the meantime, all I am aware of that he plays, quite literally, is Halo and COD). He called to ask what system I was going to buy, suggesting he was "afraid" I was going to say the PS4. I gave him a verbal lambasting criticizing him for his mindless mindset that he would NEVER give Sony money based on things they've done in the past but he is perfectly ok with MS fucking him while he is a low income individual still living at home and that people like him are the reason gaming is going on a bad direction and that he is basically a sheep.

LOL that was just the gist of it. Let's just say after the verbal rape I handed him I don't expect a call back from anytime soon. I usually a very reasonable individual but what MS is doing is so scummy I can't even comprehend someone wanting to buy this system. That said, he is FAR more blindly loyal and hardheaded than most people.
Hmmm. You sound like an asshole. If my friends buy/think of buying something I think was/is a stupid decision, I let them know my opinion and, if the product fails, make fun of them and tell them I warned them (lightheartedly), not subject them to "verbal rape" and criticize them.

I was going to let your approach with your (ex-)friend's choice of buying an Xbox One go without a reply until I saw this gem in the "No Mod Support for Battlefield 4" thread...

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As much as I want to agree, I always say buy what you like and sorry, but... I love the Dead Space series so as long as they continue to make them I'll be in line. And telling people they are idiots because they want to buy something they like is a little silly.
Hmmm... Usually people are vocal assholes to strangers on the internet while they are calm and collected with their friends in real life. You managed to do the opposite.
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Old 06-13-2013, 10:12 PM   #139
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... while he is a low income individual still living at home ...
Don't most people live at home? Unless they are homeless, in which case I would assume he wouldn't have the means to play a console anyway. And if he did, I would assume he wouldn't choose X1 because it would require an internet connection. And that could be tricky. Unless he lives at the dumpster behind McDonalds. And the he would probably just settle for a 3DS because McDonalds WiFi is a Nintendo Zone.
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Old 06-13-2013, 10:12 PM   #140
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Umm.... You don't have any rights or freedom when you license software beyond those given to you by the licensee. I understand perfectly what freedom is, but if you enter a licensing agreement with a company (which happens pretty much every time you open a piece of software) you are bound by an EULA that happens to be buried inside. This has been common with console games this generation, and judging by my own collection much more common on PS3 (most of my games post 2009 have EULAs in the manual or on an insert).

Everyone is boohooing as if Microsoft it taking food out of their baby's mouth and pushing their mom down stairs. It's video games, and it isn't really important. You have no rights with licensed software unless they are given to you, and the licensee often puts in a clause that they can change your rights at any time. Guess what... Sony has a track record of changing your rights. So keep using your freedom to tell tales about how Sony is the savior of video games and how MS is victimizing people by enforcing something those people are agreeing to.

Also... Most apartments have leases that prevent subletting it. Those same leases would limit you in other ways, like, you can't sell that apartment, because you don't own it. Or maybe you can't have cats, listen to loud music after 8, shit in the tub, or paint the walls without permission. So yeah, you totally got me there. Ouch. Oh wait, that's exactly the same thing as agreeing to license software and then acting like you own it! MS isn't taking something away from people, they are agreeing to a contract that defines what people can do. Don't agree to the contract, fine, go somewhere else and see if you get a better deal. That's the open market that you love so much right there.

For a person who sees the ideal world to be one where everything is done through private contracts, you seam to have a hard time understanding what they are, how they affect you, and that you are obligated to follow them if you agreed to them in the first place, regardless of their "ethical" standing. What sort of ethics is it to agree to terms and then violate them because you don't think they are "right".
What makes software special in the sense that vendors can redefine classic ownership and its inherent privileges?

Why not have restrictive EULAs for cars, toasters, and clothing too?

What gives them the right? Should they not stop using the terms "purchases", "buy", "own", etc., if they don't come with the typical centuries-old affiliated privileges?

People don't wholeheartedly endorse a EULA most of the time when they click accept. They mostly don't read them. They usually do not immediately affect most users, they're seen as a block/click-to-proceed annoyance. They did not buy/seek the EULA, they bought what is being held hostage behind the EULA.

Just because someone wrote a EULA doesn't make it enforceable. Example: I just made a new EULA for you. Next time you post here, that represents your acceptance of said EULA. Every time you post, you must send me $100.

I don't really have a right to create/enforce such a EULA. It is the opinion of myself and others that a lot of the new restrictions tied to digital ownership/accounts are similarly inappropriate/should not be legal.
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