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Old 04-12-2013, 05:18 AM   #21
Strider
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Just believe what the slave driver tells you, muahah.
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Old 04-12-2013, 05:19 AM   #22
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Just believe what the slave driver tells you, muahah.
Or wait, maybe it was unqualified. Maybe not, though.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:46 PM   #23
JazGalaxy
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I don't get the Bioware hate.

I played every bioware game up until Mass Effect (I did complete Dragon Age), so I don't have a full understanding of the debacle, but the tide started turning against EA with Dragon Age 2. Dragon Age 2 was an attempt to make Dragon Age more like Mass Effect 2 which was, at that point, their biggest commercial and critical success.

So DA 2 was terrible and I think Bioware gets that. Then Mass Effect 3 was somehow great for like a month and then everyone decided it was terrible? Watching that unfold never having played the series was fascinating and baffling.

As far as The Old Republic goes, that game was on track to be the biggest thing in gaming up until like a month before it released and then everyone started hating it the same way they hated ME 3.

So, in the end, people hated the ending of Mass Effect and hated The Old Republic, which was so far outside of anything Bioware was known as that I don't know how anyone would have expected it to be good...

Is that it? That's why people hate bioware now?
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Old 04-12-2013, 04:13 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by JazGalaxy View Post
Is that it? That's why people hate bioware now?
They totally screwed the pooch on ME3 and TOR. The details are in Google for all to find.

It took a few weeks for people to play through ME3 themselves and say "Hey, my (buddy/reviewer) was right and that sucked" and really commiserate on Youtube and the interwebs (though you'll see rumblings of uncertainty well before launch).

They ignored all beta feedback for TOR and then launched an MMO that might have been considered "feature-anemic" even if it were 2008 instead of 2011.

Critical features were missing that gimped PvE dungeons. PvP came to a breaking point shortly after launch when, mid-January, they allowed a horrifically broken Illum to taint the PvP-scape for over a week causing massive balancing issues on nearly all servers. They still haven't recovered from that.

Anyway, you're always more disappointed when the person you've put on the pedestal has to be removed.
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Old 04-12-2013, 04:36 PM   #25
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He is right that EA lets Bioware have creative control. I know several developers that work there.
This finally explains your magnitude of butthurt over ToR.
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Old 04-12-2013, 05:29 PM   #26
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Saw this thread on Neogaf and thought I'd link to it here. Bioware responds to players who question if they're still relevant or even capable of competing with games like The Witcher 3 and Dark Souls 2:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=539358

Most amusing was the reply that Dragon Age 3 will be released "at our usual high standards". So in other words they're already admitting it'll be shit?
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:46 PM   #27
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s the reply that Dragon Age 3 will be released "at our usual high standards". So in other words they're already admitting it'll be shit?
I love you man. (Prob will still be better than Capcom's Pokemon/Souls adventure game.)
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:50 PM   #28
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If your going to mix metaphors could it at least make sense? What dogma, and what does it have to do his having retired? Maybe a dictionary would help.
His word of the day failed him. Don't rub it in.
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Old 04-13-2013, 07:29 PM   #29
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This finally explains your magnitude of butthurt over ToR.
I loved it at launch. All that content in the Star Wars universe, the classes were fun to play if you didn't have hate towards MMO gameplay, and in the beta, the stations weren't a clusterfuck because people were out playing the PvE instead of clustered around trying to find groups for endgame dungeons. Also, on your first character, the ship battles were really entertaining and rewarding.

The game still has a lot going for it really. Too bad that they used an old crappy engine, didn't launch with a dungeon finder, and just used the old crappy engine's UI.
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Old 04-13-2013, 07:54 PM   #30
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A box of shame and one of my cats...

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Old 04-14-2013, 09:15 AM   #31
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This isn't a claim that they had complete creative control, this is a sneaky way of saying they didn't.

Read his quote again, complete creative control over a lot of it. At the end of the day they had to worry about the bottom line: ie making money, which meant multiplayer and compromising the ending the writers had in mind in order to prolong the series.

Which just means that Bioware execs had become fucking suits themselves, but also that they bowed to pressure to include certain features and place development emphasis in certain places, and fuck with the story in pursuit of the dollar.

That's taking creative control from your people.
Of course they had to worry about the bottom line at the end of the day. They're in the business of making money through producing and selling video games. Turning a profit is the end-goal for everything they release.

Bioware isn't a collective of artists who are recipients of government grants allowing them to work on whatever the hell they want. They are employees of a publicly-owned company whose ultimate goal is to make more money.

I'm utterly sick of this "sell-out" mentality, especially because every single creative product you spend money on was ultimately created with the express purpose of making money. Your favorite comic books, albums, movies and games are all product meant to turn a profit. They need to make money, otherwise it no longer makes business sense to continue selling it. I don't blame EA, Bioware or any other publisher and developer for making decisions based around what will sell; it's what they need to do to stay in business.

I'm in the beginning stages of putting together a comic book of my own and there's one question that is in the back of my mind as I'm piecing together the art and story: Will people buy this? Unfortunately, it does weigh on my mind and creative process because I want to be able to make a living through writing and/or drawing. My creation needs to be marketable in order to do so.

The same thing applies to video games.
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Old 04-14-2013, 09:40 PM   #32
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Of course they had to worry about the bottom line at the end of the day. They're in the business of making money through producing and selling video games. Turning a profit is the end-goal for everything they release.
But you're a fool to do that at the expense of story. Don't fuck with the creative vision, you get the kind of blowback that happened with ME3.

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Bioware isn't a collective of artists who are recipients of government grants allowing them to work on whatever the hell they want. They are employees of a publicly-owned company whose ultimate goal is to make more money.
ME3 would have much higher sales if it weren't artistically compromised. It would've been a classic for the ages. Instead it will be deprecated forever and it's long-tail is gone.

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I'm utterly sick of this "sell-out" mentality, especially because every single creative product you spend money on was ultimately created with the express purpose of making money.
When the EA guys told the ME3 writers to change the story so they could make a Mass Effect 4, they thought they were preserving the monetary value of the series.

In actuality they fucked themselves and the series over by turning what woud've been an incredible ending into a mindless piece of drivel.

Compounded onto this was moving Drew Karpyshyn, the original creator of the Mass Effect story, off Mass Effect to try to save the money they'd mal-invested in SW:ToR. That was a boneheaded move as well and clearly cotnributed to the convoluted mess that ME3 became.

Don't sit here and tell me you can't tell a good story and also make money, it happens all the time. But when you make story changes purely at the service of money you're selling out the artistic vision of the project and being incredibly short sighted.

If there is a ME4 they'll have to work damn hard now to get any enthusiasm for it, they've jumped the shark with 3.

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Your favorite comic books, albums, movies and games are all product meant to turn a profit. They need to make money, otherwise it no longer makes business sense to continue selling it.
How much money did Mass Effect 3's multiplayer make? Is anyone even playing it anymore? I'm supposed to accept a crap ending to 3 because EA wanted to turn Mass Effect into the next Call of Duty?

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I don't blame EA, Bioware or any other publisher and developer for making decisions based around what will sell; it's what they need to do to stay in business.
No, it's flinging shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.

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I'm in the beginning stages of putting together a comic book of my own and there's one question that is in the back of my mind as I'm piecing together the art and story: Will people buy this?
Yeah and how would you like it if the guy funding your comic walks in and tells you that sex sells and forces you to change the plot, ending, and characters into drivel to that end? Not so fun now, is it.

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Unfortunately, it does weigh on my mind and creative process because I want to be able to make a living through writing and/or drawing. My creation needs to be marketable in order to do so.

The same thing applies to video games.
Obviously mass effect's story was a prime reason people played it and bought it. To compromise that was as foolish a move as they could have made.
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