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Old 04-13-2013, 09:34 AM   #101
Terran
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There was a time when neighbors would help each other out when they were in trouble
Neighborhoods are no longer what they once were. When I grew up, our neighbors were largely unchanged for several decades. Nowadays, people move much more frequently (though the 2008 financial meltdown slowed that a bit, it's picking back up to normal rates again). The 'community' in our communities has much weaker glue holding it together than in the past, at least in my view. Americans were much more uniformly churchgoing folk decades ago, as opposed to the growing secularization of society today, so there was a greater degree of shared convictions/beliefs, including in the concept of private charity. Churchgoing individuals give far more to private charity than secular individuals, and believe far less in the need for government to assume the role that used to be filled by private charity and the church.
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Old 04-13-2013, 10:16 AM   #102
see colon
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Venom, you've been making the case that you shouldn't have to to be responsible for the lives of others. I understand your point of view, but the point is that it is the exact same justification for someone taking money from the system. Why should they care if the money came from you, they aren't responsible for the government taking money from you, the government would take it anyway. How can you absolve yourself from any obligation to society while expecting others to have an obligation to society.

Again, i have to spell things out to you in the simplest of terms. Responsibility is a directional thing. You have a responsibility to something or someone. You've made your case that you have no responsibility to society. Great. More power to you. Why would someone who is in a position to receive things for free, with no legal obligation of repayment, have some magical moral obligation that you've rallied so hard to convince me that no man should have?

Again, this is the same as the left complaining about the wealthy not paying their share. Do they expect them to volunteer more money beyond their legal obligation?

This isn't about people exploiting the system, holding back the education of their children or otherwise reducing the quality of their family's life. This about you making up arbitrary rules that you've decided absolve you from a responsibility to society but somehow hold others responsible for the actions of government. You are blaming the receivers for the action of the takers, and attaching an obligation to them that you've removed from yourself.
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Old 04-13-2013, 12:21 PM   #103
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Venom, you've been making the case that you shouldn't have to to be responsible for the lives of others. I understand your point of view, but the point is that it is the exact same justification for someone taking money from the system. Why should they care if the money came from you, they aren't responsible for the government taking money from you, the government would take it anyway. How can you absolve yourself from any obligation to society while expecting others to have an obligation to society.
How is taking from society while not giving anything in return aside from creating more drain adding to society? Oh and accomplishing this through the force of government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colon
Again, i have to spell things out to you in the simplest of terms. Responsibility is a directional thing. You have a responsibility to something or someone. You've made your case that you have no responsibility to society. Great. More power to you. Why would someone who is in a position to receive things for free, with no legal obligation of repayment, have some magical moral obligation that you've rallied so hard to convince me that no man should have?
You think that a moral obligation is the same thing as a legal one.. which seems to be your problem.

Quote:
Again, this is the same as the left complaining about the wealthy not paying their share. Do they expect them to volunteer more money beyond their legal obligation?
Do you expect people to only take what they need or taking what they can legally get regardless of need?

Quote:
This isn't about people exploiting the system, holding back the education of their children or otherwise reducing the quality of their family's life. This about you making up arbitrary rules that you've decided absolve you from a responsibility to society but somehow hold others responsible for the actions of government. You are blaming the receivers for the action of the takers, and attaching an obligation to them that you've removed from yourself.
Why isn't this about exploiting the system and purposely holding your children back in order to legally qualify for another government check? Cause and effect. The government offers other people's money if your child is illiterate and people make sure their children are illiterate in order to receive said money.

How am I making arbitrary rules? Is it because I have more faith in people than you and believe that if they were given more control over the money they earn that they would give to charity out of choice and not force?

Is it because I believe that these many social programs are presenting an all too enticing government check for people? How else do you explain record numbers of disability claims that receive record payouts from the government?

If you are justified in taking a government check not out of need but instead just due to simply qualifying for it when that money is directly taken out of another family's pocket where does that end? Your entire outlook on this seems to be that if it might possibly improve your life and you qualify for it legally who cares what that does to another family.

Also I would argue that your idea of receiving public assistance, which is by force taken from another person, actually leads to a lower standard of life for not only and individual and a family but entire generations. Look no further than government funded projects and how well that has turned out.
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Old 04-13-2013, 12:33 PM   #104
vallor
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More insults to avoid the issue and also because I think having kids is the absolutely most self-absorbed, ego based, action someone can take in this world... and Terran can't STAND that!
So you still don't have the integrity to simply admit that you're a hypocrite.

You: Parents shouldn't have children if they would have to rely on social programs to raise them.
You a few posts later: Except for programs when I approve of them.

Eventually even your own personal soundtrack will be penetrated by simple facts. But, by all means continue your attempts at misdirection by flinging more insults at me.

Let's count the life skills you're teaching your kids:
1) Grow the biggest sense of entitlement possible
2) How to be the worst kind of hypocrite
3) How to dodge personal responsibility
4) Avoiding that pesky thing called integrity
5) Be prejudiced
6) Be intolerant
7) Be hateful
8) Be judgmental (and snap judgments at that!)
9) An undeserved sense of righteousness

Bummer for them. All I can do is pray for them and leave you with the quote I posted earlier:

Quote:
"You know, Mrs. Buckman, you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming asshole be a [parent]."
Hey, if you can judge and condemn me as a person because I posted some stuff about how I don't like paying for social programs and don't think having children is the highest calling available to human kind I can certainly judge your shitty parenting skills based on what you post. A few more rabid posts from you and it just might be CPS time, we can't have kids staying with someone so goddamn unstable.

Last edited by vallor; 04-13-2013 at 12:44 PM..
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Old 04-13-2013, 02:45 PM   #105
see colon
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How is taking from society while not giving anything in return aside from creating more drain adding to society? Oh and accomplishing this through the force of government.

...

Also I would argue that your idea of receiving public assistance, which is by force taken from another person, actually leads to a lower standard of life for not only and individual and a family but entire generations. Look no further than government funded projects and how well that has turned out.
Venom, again, READ! This is not my idea, it's yours. You are the one championing the idea that we don't have an obligation to our community. I'm simply asking the question, if in your view we don't have a responsibility to our community, but we do to our family, how is it irresponsible to receive something at no cost to you that can potentially improve your life? You've made the case that we don't have that obligation, and I'm asking you the question, and all you've responded is accusations that this is my idea, and claims that we do have some sort of responsibility to society.

Make up your mind about what you want the world to be and work toward making it that way. Take your example of the projects. A few posts ago you were complaining that lower income people had huge TVs and video games that they didn't deserve and how they get food, cloths and cell phone for free. Now you are trying to tell me about how bad their life is.

You have to make up your mind if you think we have an obligation to the community. You've argued both sides of that point, and it seams to change every page or two.
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Old 04-13-2013, 04:50 PM   #106
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I'm simply asking the question, if in your view we don't have a responsibility to our community, but we do to our family, how is it irresponsible to receive something at no cost to you that can potentially improve your life?.
Receiving something at no cost to you? It can potentially improve your life... ideally bringing you up to a point that people can grab at your paycheck... and thus drag you down. Those that do receive this "free" money seem to get that through sometimes going as far as ensuring their children are illiterate.

So basically to receive this money you have two options: Make sure your life meets the legal requirements to receive financial aid from the government or rise up to have your income docked for people that wish to keep their children illiterate for a check.

The idea that receiving this financial assistance has no cost to the person receiving it is short sighted at best. Also your claim that I am taking both positions is apparently due to your lack of understanding. Here is a prime example of your lack of understanding:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colon
Make up your mind about what you want the world to be and work toward making it that way. Take your example of the projects. A few posts ago you were complaining that lower income people had huge TVs and video games that they didn't deserve and how they get food, cloths and cell phone for free. Now you are trying to tell me about how bad their life is.
You think having a large TV, videos, etc paid for by money taken from other people is a good life? I certainly don't. These social programs foster the idea in people's heads of an easy way out and they have now literally covered generations as "the way" some families live. They have a large TV in their home, paid for by other people, but have no real future, have rampant crime all around them, etc. Don't worry though... that government money that is propping them up is giving them just a wonderful life clearly.
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Old 04-13-2013, 05:32 PM   #107
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You never answered the question.
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Old 04-13-2013, 05:55 PM   #108
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You never answered the question.
Read my post: Receiving these "hand outs" either lead to a circle of a shitty life with "free money" or they're taking money from you. Not good for either person.

Do you not understand that having a big TV and an Xbox doesn't mean you are having a good or even better life?
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Old 04-14-2013, 08:56 AM   #109
see colon
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I do, I do. What I don't understand is that you think a person has no obligation to society, but at the same time they have an obligation to society. Furthermore, you've complained that people who have less get big TVs, phones and Xbox as if they are somehow living an easy life, and then said that those things don't make their lives better.

I've never met someone who isn't in public office that has been on both sides of every issue like this.
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Old 04-14-2013, 09:20 AM   #110
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Old 04-14-2013, 09:30 AM   #111
Terran
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So you still don't have the integrity to simply admit that you're a hypocrite.
Did you go to public school for any period as a child?
Did you go to a public university, where your tuition doesn't nearly cover the cost?
Did you leech of of society as a child (all children are leeches after all, in your view)? You weren't born a contributing adult, were you?
Drive on any roads lately?
Ever use a hospital you didn't build?
Do you use electricity from the electrical grid you didn't build?
Do you count on products and services being delivered to your local stores by those poor fools who would deign to work for paltry wages to do what you could never pay for completely yourself?
Take advantage of the mortgage deduction on your tax return?
Ever claimed a medical and/or tuition expense?
Itemized your taxes before, ever?

You were, and are, happy to suck at the teet of the community for all of these benefits neither you nor your parents could possibly afford on your own, and yet you would deny them to others. Fool.

People like you shouldn't reproduce. You're not only a hypocrite, you're the worst kind of blind leech possible. You can't even SEE the ways the community supports (and supported) you, all you see are the 'liabilities' of others and their impositions upon you.

MOVE TO AN ISLAND. You are an incredible hypocrite.
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Old 04-14-2013, 10:12 AM   #112
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I do, I do. What I don't understand is that you think a person has no obligation to society, but at the same time they have an obligation to society. Furthermore, you've complained that people who have less get big TVs, phones and Xbox as if they are somehow living an easy life, and then said that those things don't make their lives better.

I've never met someone who isn't in public office that has been on both sides of every issue like this.
If you cannot understand why I am against leeching off other people out of principle and not out of some obligation to society I cannot help you.

I have complained about people choosing to get "free" money to get TVs, etc. If you still cannot figure out why taking the easy handout money (easy life) is different from having a meaningful/good life then I also cannot help you.
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Old 04-14-2013, 10:17 AM   #113
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Did you go to a public university, where your tuition doesn't nearly cover the cost?
This is way too specific. Charter schools and private schools more often than not receive Federal or State funding in one form or another, the least of which being the school lunch program. Furthermore, religious schools often receive beneficial tax treatment because of their status.

Private colleges accept students who receive Federal and State grants. Even students who do not receive these grants benefit because it increases enrollment. Enrollment is how those institutions produce income, regardless if they are for profit or not.

The only way a person's education is not funded by the State or Federal Governments would be if they were home schooled with no higher education in a state where there is no tax deductions for home schooling, and there are loopholes to that even.

Where I live you cannot claim any school supplies as tax deductions if you home school, but if you set up a tutoring business, and have a few clients, you can write all of them off as an operational cost for that business. And if you make little to no money, or lose money on that tutoring business, you will either have no effect, or a positive effect on your taxable income. You can also apply for small business grants and go on "business trips" to museums and Sci-Tech centers as business expenses.
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Old 04-14-2013, 10:20 AM   #114
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If you cannot understand why I am against leeching off other people out of principle and not out of some obligation to society I cannot help you.
What would that principle be if not some obligation to society?
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Old 04-14-2013, 10:43 AM   #115
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What would that principle be if not some obligation to society?
Independence
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Old 04-14-2013, 11:14 AM   #116
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Independence
Finally! Was that so hard. What was that, 4 pages of me asking the question and providing examples and you arguing about big TVs and Xbox. Oh, and putting words into my mouth.
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Old 04-14-2013, 11:22 AM   #117
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Finally! Was that so hard. What was that, 4 pages of me asking the question and providing examples and you arguing about big TVs and Xbox. Oh, and putting words into my mouth.
You really couldn't tell the difference?
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Old 04-14-2013, 11:30 AM   #118
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This is way too specific. <excellent examples followed>
You are correct!
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Old 04-14-2013, 11:48 AM   #119
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You really couldn't tell the difference?
No. Independence is not devoid of responsibility. Someone paid for your independence just like someone payed for mine. Independence from everything is impossible, so much like responsibility it is directional.
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Old 04-14-2013, 12:35 PM   #120
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No. Independence is not devoid of responsibility. Someone paid for your independence just like someone payed for mine. Independence from everything is impossible, so much like responsibility it is directional.
Did I say independence was devoid of responsibility? Responsibility seems to completely circle around money and objects to you and through force of government. If someone is to be independent that requires a great deal of personal responsibility.

What does not require responsibility is to game the system in order to obtain some sort of financial gain especially at the cost of ruining families, living in horrible places and doing actual harm to your children in order to get "free" money that is taken from someone else. In reality that is quite the opposite of what responsibility is. How is responsible for a society to feed these projects and allow them to grow and carry on over generations? How is it responsible for a person to willingly subject themselves and their families to that?

Who paid for my independence? Who paid for yours? Can independent people not come together to accomplish something if they so choose without force of government?
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