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Old 05-09-2012, 12:04 PM   #61
vallor
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Originally Posted by SaintBlitzkrieg View Post
I am curious as to how you can rate a game like that a 5. Maybe it isn't your cup of tea.
That's, I think, part of the point. WoW and CoD are the bland English tea of their repective genres. Some may like green tea a lot better when it makes others gag, others may like chammonile tea better when it makes others too sleepy.

English tea is right in the middle and everyone can agree that, at least, it doesn't taste like shit.
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:15 PM   #62
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MMOs will be better when companies stop trying to be WoW, and go against the norm.
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Originally Posted by Primus
This genre is stagnant, it won't be revitalized until a company takes a chance and completely breaks away from the by the numbers design.
You're right, but it's oh so much easier said than done.

The problem is this; the budgets required to develop and maintain an MMO are much, much higher than your average game. It's hard to "take a chance" and "go against the norm" when you're dealing with the comparatively astronomical budgets MMOs tend to need.
Taking too many chances and breaking too many genre "rules" and tropes can certainly lead to a fantastic game...but the risk of it seeming too alien and different to your target audience is often too big of a risk for many people to take. I don't blame them, considering millions of dollars, people's livelihoods and entire companies are often on the line with launches these magnitudes.

People blame WoW for the genre being stagnant...but how many of you were actually paying attention to it back in 2004? How many of you realize that it was originally aping the previous MMO giant: Everquest. The game was scoffed by many in the MMO scene because it was deemed too easy. Blizzard did very little to change the landscape of the MMO outside of being wildly successful; they exploited a massive fanbase and made the genre easier to break into from a player's standpoint(which is a laughable thought now, considering how disgustingly easy they've made the game compared to what it used to be).
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:26 PM   #63
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They need to update UO's graphics to Diablo 3's and BAM it's back in the action!
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:44 PM   #64
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They need to update UO's graphics to Diablo 3's and BAM it's back in the action!
Yup. Most of what everyone is asking for is available in UO now... it just looks like a game from 1998.

UO has no leveling and no classes. You just gain skill by using the skill.

There are no "locked off" dungeons. You just risk entering it.

You can build custom homes and have your own NPC vendors.

You don't even have take part in combat. You can be a miner or a blacksmith only (some people enjoy that).

If you could take the UO features and put it in WoW's or Diablo's engine -- that would be awesome.

UO is the deepest of all the MMOs IMHO. Shame it can't update the game's engine.
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:30 PM   #65
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Yup. Most of what everyone is asking for is available in UO now... it just looks like a game from 1998.
They'd have to nurf the PvP (e.g. it would have to be Trammell, not old-skool UO). No game with strict PvP has survived outside the niche. Mainstream = consentual PvP.

They would also have to revamp the "pools" resource system to something that handles a larger population otherwise the world resources would never be sustainable above it's current playerbase.

There are tons of other changes that would have to happen, it isn't just updating the engine and *SHAZAM* 5 million users.
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:48 PM   #66
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They'd have to nurf the PvP (e.g. it would have to be Trammell, not old-skool UO). No game with strict PvP has survived outside the niche. Mainstream = consentual PvP.

They would also have to revamp the "pools" resource system to something that handles a larger population otherwise the world resources would never be sustainable above it's current playerbase.

There are tons of other changes that would have to happen, it isn't just updating the engine and *SHAZAM* 5 million users.
Thanks Captain Obvious. No where did I say the game was perfectly suited for 5 million users.

Obviously updating the engine is a first step. People pass on games because "graphics suck".

The game's population has been larger than it is now and they resources handled it. Clearly if they expected to have 250,000 concurrent users on 1 shard they would design a system to support that.

You could easily keep the UO style and expand upon it to support a large player base.

People in this thread are saying "we need something different then WoW", sounds to me like UO is about as different from WoW as you can get.
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Old 05-09-2012, 03:11 PM   #67
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You keep blaming EA but they are just the publishers. All those mistakes are on Bioware themselves. 3 years ago their only good remaining series was ME. What do they have now? DA? LOL NO!
I'd call it 60/40 blame with EA getting the lion's share. Only because they've undoubtedly put strings on their publishing money, and caused the dev to grow in ways that seems to have destroyed them.

I'm pretty sure that the original KOTOR team has been split up into three or more different properties, with newhires to fill out the ranks.

They've diluted a gold team into three copper teams turning out mediocre games, which only Mass Effect seemed unaffected by largely. Until the revelation of the ending--which I'm quite sure was done because of EA.

Why? Because EA wants to keep monetizing Mass Effect so they refused to allow the writers to close off the universe. They gave us an inferior ending, forcing the dev team to become liars, all in the service of money. It's despicable.
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Old 05-09-2012, 05:17 PM   #68
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Yup. Most of what everyone is asking for is available in UO now... it just looks like a game from 1998.

UO has no leveling and no classes. You just gain skill by using the skill.

There are no "locked off" dungeons. You just risk entering it.

You can build custom homes and have your own NPC vendors.

You don't even have take part in combat. You can be a miner or a blacksmith only (some people enjoy that).

If you could take the UO features and put it in WoW's or Diablo's engine -- that would be awesome.

UO is the deepest of all the MMOs IMHO. Shame it can't update the game's engine.
Amen.

I loved UO! Giving UO a D3 facelift would be pure bliss. Even though I enjoyed EQ, WoW, Rift among others, they never came close to being as fun as UO was. I didn't bother at all with SWOTR because it was just another WoW clone with a SW face.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:42 AM   #69
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Is this proof that MMO market is dying?
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Old 05-10-2012, 03:59 PM   #70
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Thanks Captain Obvious. No where did I say the game was perfectly suited for 5 million users.

Obviously updating the engine is a first step. People pass on games because "graphics suck".
You're welcome. An alternative to WoW would mean WoW numbers or at least the numbers a modern MMO puts up. UO could barely handle the 100,000 people it had (hi2u housing crisis) much less the 1,000,000 people that seems to be the bar for a modern MMO (that doesn't cost $300m). Graphics may only be the first step... of thousands that it would take to make UO an alternative to WoW. May as well start from scratch and make UO 2.

Before you call me Capt. Obvious, think entirely through your own idea and people wouldn't feel the need to point out the low-hanging stupid shit that make your ideas impractical at best or impossible at worst.
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:39 PM   #71
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Before you call me Capt. Obvious, think entirely through your own idea and people wouldn't feel the need to point out the low-hanging stupid shit that make your ideas impractical at best or impossible at worst.
There is nothing impractical or impossible about his idea. Given the fact they have released 3 different clients for Ultima Online they would not need to start over for a fresh coat of paint.

Why would it have to just be trammal instead of the current Fel/Tram side.. you can simply choose to go to open world PVP or stay in Trammal just like in DCUO and UO currently.

Housing: they can simply add more lands and/or adjust housing limits as they have already done. Age of Shadows did not allow for keeps and castles to be placed by players even with space available.

Revamping the resources is easily done as they can simply increase the respawn rate of them or the amount that drops to fullfill the needs of the player base or they could leave it as is and let it play into the economy.

The biggest need to attract more players aside from in my opinion the graphics (and arguably the cheating) is putting in a simple carrot with the stick model of "raiding". How many players are guilty of logging into an MMO just to complete the Dailies or run a raid before it resets in order to get the latest purples, tokens, etc?

UO has always had a much more random loot system, with it back in the day having even the most powerful items having a chance to drop off some of the weakest enemies. A simple revision could be put in (which they have already taken steps towards, to include instanced "dungeons", loot type of tokens and points towards drops) in order to attract more players.

In my opinion UO offers one of the most unique experiences in the MMO market and while obviously has it's problems could be revamped without investing millions of dollars. Also the amount of servers UO has probably could support around a million players currently (not allowing everyone to own a home) however that would be part of the market as the housing market would be part of the economy again.

So while that is a longer way of responding to your "point out the low-hanging stupid shit that make your ideas impractical at best or impossible at worst" I simply do not believe to be true given the history of UO, what they have done with the game throughout it's history and in comparison to other MMOs out there.
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:54 PM   #72
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UO was deep because it's so shallow? lol after that I'll never be considered a gaming hipster again.

UO simply sucked, lacked too many features, and catered to only the minimal dredges who were just barely crawling onto the internet when the rest of us were up and running.

It didn't do well, it didn't last long (with any serious numbers for both), and it wasn't even fun to play. UO is no different than Minecraft. You're given a set of limited tools and told you can be anything so long as you want to be the best at what you're good at.

Ok this just convinces me that humanity is doomed or life needs a respawn timer.
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:57 PM   #73
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Dude...you are STILL playing similar MMO's. How can you be so smug about it? If anything you need to let MMO's "die" or stop playing them altogether.
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:58 PM   #74
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Why do you keep lurking?
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:18 AM   #75
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Lurkers don't post. Answer the question!
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:43 AM   #76
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[QUOTE=lockwoodx;2119442]UO was deep because it's so shallow? lol after that I'll never be considered a gaming hipster again.

Quote:
UO simply sucked, lacked too many features, and catered to only the minimal dredges who were just barely crawling onto the internet when the rest of us were up and running.
UO launched in 1997.. the internet was not "up and running" since the VAST majority of people were crawling on their 28.8 or "blazing 56k" connections. Online play was in it's infancy.

Quote:
It didn't do well, it didn't last long (with any serious numbers for both), and it wasn't even fun to play.
Yet it is still alive in 2012... apparently still profitable, had a problem that it was too popular to support the player base at launch despite being a buggy mess. Supposedly it hit 250,000 players at one point. In addition to that it is still sub based and last I heard they had not shut a single server down (obviously they are not at the 250k player base currently). Big evil EA runs Ultima Online... clearly if they weren't making money they would have shut it down long ago.

Now being fun to play/not fun to merely an opinion. I enjoyed being able to pick and choose what kind of character I wanted to be without merely picking from a list of 6 classes. Also when factions was at it's height I thought it was extremely fun being involved in taking over entire towns in battles with over 200 people being actively involved.

Quote:
UO is no different than Minecraft. You're given a set of limited tools and told you can be anything so long as you want to be the best at what you're good at.
Which MMO does not give you a set of limited tools?

Quote:
Ok this just convinces me that humanity is doomed or life needs a respawn timer.
Doom and gloom from you? No way this is unheard of!
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:38 AM   #77
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There is nothing impractical or impossible about his idea. Given the fact they have released 3 different clients for Ultima Online they would not need to start over for a fresh coat of paint.
All good points. I totally agree that UO stands alone in the crowd. Despite their unique approach to many things (and groundbreaking things at that) in 3 clients they haven't been able to keep up in nearly any respect. They have always been a day late and a dollar short. However, your few paragraphs greatly minimizes the amount of work when you say these things are easy. Each task would require new and pricy teams above and beyond the cheap sustainment skeleton crew they have now and at least a year, though more likely years, of effort.

Maybe I can add some clarity. You are correct that some of the work isn't difficult, but all of it is very labor intensive.

Updating the graphics is just scratching the surface and probably wouldn't be the most difficult. Though I would hazard a guess it would still be more efficient to start from the ground up rather than shoehorn DX10/11 into a game that old. Other systems each represent weeks and months that would have to be invested into designing and creating or changing and testing the systems if they want to get it right the first time.

It isn't as simple as looking at the resource pool and saying "Oh, I get it, lets change that INT32 to a ULONGLONG and now we'll never run out of bears! Let's just copy/paste that into the reagent database and done." There is design, balancing, and testing to make sure these changes don't screw with anything else.

And after all that UO might still release and be behind the curve. I'll grant that MMOs aren't evolving as fast as they used to, but ToR still managed to release 3 years too late for its tech and design. Whatever Blizzard is working on (Project: Titan) could be out by then drawing all those users anyway.

I'd be happy to reply to each of your points but that would make this a much longer post (and everyone knows how much I hate those!). This thread and the other SWTOR thread has brought me to the realization that, on the internet, I probably won't convince anyone differently anyway. It took long enough!

EDIT: PM me if you really want me to drone on about how impractical a suggestion it is to make 1997s UO competitive with a 2013 MMO.

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Old 05-11-2012, 05:11 AM   #78
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All good points. I totally agree that UO stands alone in the crowd. Despite their unique approach to many things (and groundbreaking things at that) in 3 clients they haven't been able to keep up in nearly any respect.
Well they are back to the "classic client", which is how the game which was fine... in 1997. Not in 2012. They also have an "enhanced client" that is okay... and even has more modern shortcuts but I agree it's not exactly on par with what they should be releasing today.

Quote:
They have always been a day late and a dollar short.
I don't agree with this statement over the course of the games life since it was pretty revolutionary when it was launched.

Quote:
However, your few paragraphs greatly minimizes the amount of work when you say these things are easy. Each task would require new and pricy teams above and beyond the cheap sustainment skeleton crew they have now and at least a year, though more likely years, of effort.
It would take time and money how much I don't believe any of us can say. I have seen high resolution textures done by fans of the game that actually looked pretty good. I'm sure if they could redo as much as they had in those pics then a paid staff could do well.

Quote:
Maybe I can add some clarity. You are correct that some of the work isn't difficult, but all of it is very labor intensive.
Sure sure but you pay X amounts of artists to start making higher resolution graphics and I feel confident it wouldn't take but a few months. UO is afterall guilty of having the same graphic for different monsters with a different name over it's head.

Quote:
Updating the graphics is just scratching the surface and probably wouldn't be the most difficult. Though I would hazard a guess it would still be more efficient to start from the ground up rather than shoehorn DX10/11 into a game that old. Other systems each represent weeks and months that would have to be invested into designing and creating or changing and testing the systems if they want to get it right the first time.
That's why they don't need to upgrade the entire game, keep the game as is and adjust the graphics which would make it more more attractive to gamers.

Quote:
It isn't as simple as looking at the resource pool and saying "Oh, I get it, lets change that INT32 to a ULONGLONG and now we'll never run out of bears! Let's just copy/paste that into the reagent database and done." There is design, balancing, and testing to make sure these changes don't screw with anything else.
They've greatly changed respawn rates within up and down in rates. I don't see the respawn timers being an issue.

Quote:
And after all that UO might still release and be behind the curve. I'll grant that MMOs aren't evolving as fast as they used to, but ToR still managed to release 3 years too late for its tech and design. Whatever Blizzard is working on (Project: Titan) could be out by then drawing all those users anyway.
I'm not in the belief that UO is out to keep up with say Blizzard's next MMO or anything of that sort. I'm simply saying put a fresh coat of paint, refine it a bit and they would put themselves in a better position to gain further subscriptions. I believe if you offer a game that is truly different than the vast majority of MMOs out there and do not look like you still believe it's 1997 and people are still sporting Pentium chips then people may see they offer something actually different than Qing up for the latest BG or doing your daily quests.
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