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Old 04-27-2012, 04:17 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Peelzbury View Post
@vallor
Nice rhetorical barrage. Feel better?
I should point out you barely touched on any of the points i made, and instead focused on attacking me... i believe there's a term for that..

And.. i should tell you.. just because your upset, doesnt absolve you of falling down on the wrong side of the argument.
LOL, if I'm upset at all it's because of your inablity to grok what is being written and desire to mock a community you apparently know little about (despite your name-dropping). I keep forgetting that rational discussion with a "true" PvPer is rarely worth it especially if they can't dismiss you a "carebear" or "scrub". That'll learn me.

You had one additive post, about how MMOs don't spend much time on their PvP models (well, DAoC did, as did UO, M59, Shadowbane, EVE, and the list goes on and that is just MMOs!). The rest of your posts boil down to "People that don't like PVP must suck at it," and "Playing PVE against a script is boring." Opinions easily refuted.

As far as mental agility and creativity being required for PvP that is just bunk and any PvPer knows it. In fact they rely on it.

There are tried and true tactics that force predictable behavior in PvP, just as predictable as a PVE fight. These tactics work in bracketed PvP of all levels. They work in ranked PvP. They work in Open world PVP. The FPS tactics generate predictable behavior in FPS, the RTS tactics work in an RTS, and themepark MMO tactics work in the themepark MMO. To say otherwise is disingenuous at best, willfully ignorant at worst. At least till the devs change the game. And then new tactics emerge, repeat ad-naseum.

The same tactics over and over. You say tomato, I say BORING!

At least PVE provides lore, different landscapes, and different enemies with different abilities to discover and kill!

Last edited by vallor; 04-27-2012 at 04:28 PM..
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Old 04-27-2012, 04:25 PM   #122
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Can we get some cliff notes what vallor and Johan-lite er.. Pillsbury are arguing about? I'm lost
Him: If you don't like PVP it's because all you posters must suck at it

Me: I have a lot of PvP experience and disagree. There were a lot of PvP games before MMOs and it's likely that most of the posters have played and maybe even excelled at a PvP or competitive game of some type so you're wrong.

Him: Did I strike a nerve? Butthurt much?

Me: Not really [vallor - though objectively, maybe I was a little insulted at the continued indiscrimnate attacks]. And your other points are bullshit too since creativity is the least important facet of PvP.

Him: [vallor - who cares?]

Did I miss anything?
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Old 04-27-2012, 06:46 PM   #123
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Him: If you don't like PVP it's because all you posters must suck at it

Me: I have a lot of PvP experience and disagree. There were a lot of PvP games before MMOs and it's likely that most of the posters have played and maybe even excelled at a PvP or competitive game of some type so you're wrong.

Him: Did I strike a nerve? Butthurt much?

Me: Not really [vallor - though objectively, maybe I was a little insulted at the continued indiscrimnate attacks]. And your other points are bullshit too since creativity is the least important facet of PvP.

Him: [vallor - who cares?]

Did I miss anything?
Ah, gotcha. Now we're up to speed. Somehow I don't think he's quite on the winning side here o_O
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Old 04-27-2012, 09:41 PM   #124
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Old 04-28-2012, 08:10 AM   #125
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As far as mental agility and creativity being required for PvP that is just bunk and any PvPer knows it. In fact they rely on it.

There are tried and true tactics that force predictable behavior in PvP, just as predictable as a PVE fight.
heh, i like this post. it's so amazingly inaccurate that i'm actually a little worried that if i point out the flaws you still wont notice.

But here goes.

From what you've listed - about how actions produce predictable behavior - i agree - if the person your fighting is bad and doesn't think ahead - See if you actually pvped you would understand what i'm trying to say - which is.. good players evolve during and after combat.

You actually believe pve and pvp are equally dynamic at all levels?

you actually think this? heh - I'll give you a day to cool off and approach this rationally.

-Just to give u an example u can follow
Lets say a predictable behavior is Mage casting a slow nuke with high damage.
mage vs.. lets say rogue.
Rogue A is competent - he has a spell that lets him resist the next cast. He uses it to avoid spells just like this.
Mage A casts slow nuke, rogue A hits evasion.
Mage A acts, Rogue A Responds. Predictable right?
follow me a bit further:
Now lets say Mage B arrives in the same area. and Mage B is EVEN slicker than Mage A.

Mage B has fought the rogue before - knows about his evasion and decides to do something unusual.
He sees rogue b - Starts his cast - Rogue A hits evasion.
Then Mage B stops his cast and switches to a zero cast time dot.
this zero cast time spell eats the rogues evasion skill.
Rogue A is vulunerable.
Mage B takes advantage. Fight continues - but Mage B has made a decisive early choice to give him an early advantage.

This is just a simple example - but things like this happen at the high level of pvp - this is something i suspect pvers usually dont experience - given the climate of the responses here.

I trust you understand my point. Pvp is.. Dynamic. Only bad players are ever 'forced' to respond. Good players see beyond the usual.

But if pvp isnt your thing, you probably never really understood the Deep tactics that lie beyond the usual tactics you scoff at as.. pve-like. lol

of course the Deep tactics dont get brought out Unless your oppponent is that good. But when you fight someone so good u have to do fake casts and all other sorts of high end pvp tactics we use.. That's when PVP shines and becomes so much better than pve. It's funny - all pvpers seem to understand this instinctively.

Only you pver types seem to be struggling with this.
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Old 04-28-2012, 09:05 AM   #126
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@ane

Preference:
I like Green.

Opinion:
I think green would be a good camo color during summer forest combat

similar? - yes. same? No.

See a preference is a like an emotional decision. You use your experience with different things and somewhere in your mind you form these preferences for some things over others. I have no idea how it works but that's my take on it.

an Opinion *the actual meaning originally intended, not what society has twisted it into* Is when your experiences and thoughtful considerations on topics are allowed to form over time, and you use that information to decide a 'truth' about something. i use truth here not to say it's absolute, but just in the more basic meaning- something that is demonstrable and measurable.

I'm sure this isnt enough to sway you. But i'll wait for you to read this and consider. Should u need further explanations, i can provide them.
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:21 PM   #127
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@ane

Preference:
I like Green.

Opinion:
I think green would be a good camo color during summer forest combat

similar? - yes. same? No.
Fine. However, absent supporting evidence to your opinion, it remains mere preference. Preference never needs supporting evidence, opinion does. Opinion can be so weakly supported that it remains akin to preference. If you state that your 'opinion is that green is the best color' it remains a statement of preference.

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See a preference is a like an emotional decision. You use your experience with different things and somewhere in your mind you form these preferences for some things over others. I have no idea how it works but that's my take on it.
Which, to us, describes exactly why you pvp is 'better'.

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an Opinion *the actual meaning originally intended, not what society has twisted it into* Is when your experiences and thoughtful considerations on topics are allowed to form over time, and you use that information to decide a 'truth' about something. i use truth here not to say it's absolute, but just in the more basic meaning- something that is demonstrable and measurable.
I agree. Too often people use the term opinion to protect unsupported truth claims, as in 'that's just my opinion' as if it were thereby immune from attack.

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I'm sure this isnt enough to sway you. But i'll wait for you to read this and consider. Should u need further explanations, i can provide them.
No, I'll accept your elucidation on the difference, but maintain that the heart of it is the inclusion of a truth claim in an opinion and that said truth claim requires supporting evidence and/or rationale.

Your rationale seems to be that pvp is dynamic. Unfortunately, you don't seem to realize that valuing dynamism in a game is once again, a preference.

Others may have other preferences which are equally valid. In the vast majority of games, pvp is not even an option. If your value of dynamism were accepted whole-heartedly, 90% of games would be invalidated as not even enjoyable. So, clearly, there's a flaw in your reasoning. Clearly, games are still fun without the dynamism of a pvp experience.
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:35 PM   #128
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I think we can all just agree that The Old Republic sucks.
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Old 04-29-2012, 03:49 AM   #129
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Someone mind passing the popcorn?
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Old 04-29-2012, 07:43 AM   #130
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To play the devil's advocate, I am pretty sure I do suck at PVP and I definitely hated having players come out of nowhere and kill my guys in WoW when I was minding my own business killing computer controlled guys and questing. So, on the surface of it, I think there is some merit in the idea that we dislike things we suck at. Why? Well, I think a large part of it has to do with the experience of being the world's most awesomest Star Wars PVP killer man is far more pleasurable than the feeling of sucking at it and being constantly killed by that awsomest guy.

More seriously, all video game skills involve som elearning curve and I don't think it is much of a stretch to say each gamer invest's more time is climbing that curve for the experiences more enjoyable to them. It is far more likely that people have underdeveloped skills in games because they don't like them rather than the converse which was posited by the new awesomest Star Wars PVP killer guy, which is that people people suck at certain skills and that causes the dislike. I think gamers are more or less spoon fed skills and experiences these days that are designed to be mastered by the largest possible auduence. That isn't to say that putting in hours and hours of practice at certain skills in certain games doesn't lead to increased skills, mastery, and a sense of personal accomplishment.

In my opinion, one of the great triumphs of games in the past 15 years has been turning the accomplishment related to game skill mastery into a social and community experience as opposed to the old school and more private situation in which all of that practice went into something that had no resonance outside of the game itself, and no recognition aside from people you told, most of whom couldn't care less. However, making harder and harder bosses and more obscure and difficult skill sets would only limit the appeal of the game to a more narrow niche of gamers. Making the accomplishments public and social lets game designers coast a bit and create the context while it is up to the community to create the challenge and sense of accomplishment.

A few years in and I think we can all say that while enjoyable, this new type of accomplishment also appeals to a narrow niche of the absolute biggest douchebags in the history of human entertainment, which further contributes to a rejection by huge section of the gaming public as a set of experiences simply not worth investing the time in to as long as rewarding and more douchebag-free gaming experience alternatives abound.

Having said all of that, I will end by simply and earnestly stating once more that I hope SWTOR succeeds.
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Old 04-29-2012, 12:39 PM   #131
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Someone mind passing the popcorn?
Sorry, I'm all out. I just found out this thread is still going strong.
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Old 04-29-2012, 08:46 PM   #132
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Your rationale seems to be that pvp is dynamic. Unfortunately, you don't seem to realize that valuing dynamism in a game is once again, a preference.
hmm. i'd like to go into this but, aye if you dont want a dynamic experience - imo more dyamic = more fun - Then yes do pve. But that is sorta my position from the start.

you also said some thing akin to - most games dont have pvp - there for, so on and so forth - your likely wrong.

Interesting conclusion to draw based on that evidence. It's sorta like saying - everyone likes chicken. Not a lot of ppl like sushi, so you saying sushi is better is probably wrong. I didnt think you had that much faith in the average american. I envy you, ane.

But really ane - the "most games r x' argument? that's pretty weak.

Majority.
It says a lot about some things, but lets example the truth it's speaking a bit more closely.


Maybe it's just nowadays, making a game is more about making the most profitable game -than it is about making the best game - and that if the majority of ppl who -dont eat right, never learned that never say die spirit, and would rather put on god mode or set it to easy than play normal difficulty,, - If there are more of those ppl out there - (i.e. baddies) Maybe that's the reason for the 'majority' lack of pvp in most games?

If i'm right, then the majority 'non pvp' that you bring up actually supports my hypothesis, wouldnt you say?


If being good was common. It wouldnt be so sought after.
i think.
sorry for the late reply btw. Been enjoying the Hell out of Aion.

shit is cash son.
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Old 04-29-2012, 09:49 PM   #133
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All games are dynamic to a degree, they have world's that change. They are not static pictures. They can be explored, things happen, to you and to enemies. Enemies have a certain amount of AI built into them, etc. All single player games feature this sort of thing.

Some of us would rather explore and win cooperatively with other people than be combative with other players. Everyone wins in coop, meaning players are not pit against each other. There's dynamism in your own allies contribution to the effort to contend with, just cooperatively rather than oppositionally.

I've never once raided and had the exact same experience I did the time before, precisely because of the people we're with.

Anyway, it should be clear that you simply prefer the kinds of experiences posed by other players in a versus environment. There's no objectively better game experience being offered in pvp.

Even in shooters I prefer coop, and shooters are the greatest argument for the pvp expereince for pvp has taken over that genre almost exclusively, to the point that single-player is sometimes an after-thought.

At the end of the day no one can tell anyone what's fun to them. You glory in being some pvp player, we don't care. You're probably much younger than I and many of us, and grew up in an era where pvp was big. Well, I didn't.

We often like what we're used to. But to then diss others for a different preference is really crossing the line.
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Old 04-29-2012, 10:01 PM   #134
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shit is cash son.
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:21 PM   #135
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You say co-op PvP, I say Dota 2!
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:48 PM   #136
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Are you guys still here? I was about to turn out the lights.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:06 AM   #137
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:08 AM   #138
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:17 AM   #139
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ane, u are really scraping the bottom of the last ditch barrel.

My age? really..
- haha you dont know my age. So - u imagine, i suppose, that pvpers are young - which they tend to be - but an older player can be just as good -with more experience- with the right consistent food choices. - Drawing a conclusion on little to no evidence? Hmm wasn't someone just scoffing at me for doing that? Who was that..

The beginning and middle of your post, you mentioned things like, 'u cant tell me what to like, etc etc' and a few more straw mans bunched and binded for good measure. Myait-be, frustration or a little e-rage is has clouded your mind, but let me make it clear:

I'm not telling you what to like.

My standpoint simply is - from playing mmos -pve and pvp -for quite some time now - has allowed me to arrive at the hypothesis that; if you avoid pvp - it's because your a baddie - i.e. bad at pvp. Which is actually pretty simple and easy to understand if you remove the emotional component of realizing, 'OH NO I"m a baddie.'

You pretty much just admitted in your post that you avoid pvp at all costs. You probably do love it more than pvp. I was just enlightening you as to 'why' you like it more. You don't have to agree of course.. reality doesn't require that you do so.

so drink your red bull - and believe.. whatever you want to believe.

you did touch on one point that occured to me as my mind was idling considering different points you may make.

And that is that pve is still fun.

Aye It is still fun.
[for as long as it remains new and exciting - thanks btw for seeing my point about how the People make it exciting, not so much the pve in and of itself]

I never actually said it 'wasn't fun. again your mind maybe playing tricks on you here. My position has been (and forgive me if it ever changed) That pvp is simply More Fun - More Dynamic - Can reach a higher threshold of awesomeness, potentially) than pve can.

And with the right team, the right diet, and the right amount of will power you to can experience this. Or Don't - and go try and shave a few more seconds off your boss run this saturday.

I'm sure there's an achievement for that.

mmmm delicious pve carrots! - Does a Baddie good!
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:22 AM   #140
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You can make the multiplayer (pvp) vs single player / co op (pve) argument in a multitude of games and gametypes. The fact that said passionate poster can only seem to realize this in the prism of PVE in MMO's is a tribute to their infancy in this hobby and myopia of genre's.
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