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Old 04-25-2012, 01:46 PM   #61
sai tyrus
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For some reason I've been reading your posts lately with the same kind of selective hearing I use with women.

My bad
LMAO! You sir, get the comedy award of the thread.
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Old 04-25-2012, 03:32 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Evil Avatar View Post
No matter how you slice it, having your game bomb out after only 4 months is a huge failure for a game that was like a 300+ Million investment.

To me, this is the key point. A game that sells 1.7 million units could in no way be considered a failure or a bomb...

...unless said game started 300 extra extra large in the hole. 1.7 millions sales at $60 each is $102 million. (Let's be generous and assume EA keeps the whole $60 purchase price.) 1.7 million subscriptions at $15 per month for 5 months is $127.5 million.

That leaves $70 million to go before any profits can be counted, and I'm sure they've made a little less than what I calculated. Plus, $300 million development costs probably doesn't count any on-going advertising, salaries or server costs.

MMOGs have a very long "shelf life." (Hey, I'm still playing City of Heroes!) I'm sure it will be profitable eventually. But it doesn't look profitable yet, and I'm sure at least a few executives are squirming in their chairs a bit over some of the decisions they made at the start of development.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:09 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by gojira View Post
1.7 millions sales at $60 each is $102 million. (Let's be generous and assume EA keeps the whole $60 purchase price.) 1.7 million subscriptions at $15 per month for 5 months is $127.5 million.

That leaves $70 million to go before any profits can be counted, and I'm sure they've made a little less than what I calculated.
You'd be close to right if all they had to worry about was gross revenue. They have made a *whole lot less* in net income.

First, the suggestion is that post-free-month they only have 1.25m subscribers.

Second, EA doesn't get to keep $60 per unit, those sold at retail are at least 50% off the top. Then you have your distributer at another 20% so for each retail product they're getting maybe $20 after taking out cost of goods. The only ones they get the full price for are maybe digital downloads, but that has costs too for infrastructure.

Let's say the Origin team offered to foot the bill for all the backend costs of supporting digital download and EA got to keep all that money. Let's be even MORE generous and say that digital downloads accounted for 50% of their business.

$60 x 850,000 = ~$51m net revenue
$20 x 850,000 = ~$17m net revenue

Total netfor box sales = ~$68m

Second, they aren't making all $15 of that subscription fee as profit. They have to reinvest to keep those patches or event(s) coming and to keep their servers running. If they are lucky they get to keep $8 for every $15 they make.

$8 x 1.25m reoccuring subscribers x 5 months = ~$50m in subscription income

So they've made ~$125m toward a production spend of an estimated $250m - $300m.

They've got a long way to go.

Of course all we can do is pull numbers out of our asses until EA releases their financials... but then we'll know for sure.

By comparison, Rift cost a rumored $60m to make, had ~the same number of current SWTOR subscribers and still took a year to make back their money according to Trion (they announced some sort of break even a few months ago). Also they launched with far, far more community based features than Star Wars will even be able to boast about AFTER the mythical 1.3 "community" patch.

Edit: I say "Net" income, but I don't account for taxes and the like. Just the money they get before that crap. It is a misuse but it gets the point across. Besides, as a big company they probably don't pay any taxes anyway on their billions.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:10 PM   #64
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uh huh.
- the Denial is strong here -
but what i'm hearing is :
'i dont care to learn to get good at something thats hard at first.
I dont care to gear up and test my mental alacrity / setup / creativitty - against other living breathing human players who's attack patterns arent preset and predictable.

i'm sure once upon a time you had that competitive streak.
right?
You guys played street fighter around the same time i did. We use to have huge battle royales against everyoen else in the neighborhood. Loser passes the stick. Or am i alone in this.

It tends to die out in some as they get older though.

Maybe that's what it is for you guys.

have fun in the raid next saturday.
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:06 PM   #65
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heh, to chimp and evil :

It may hurt to realize this but the main reason ppl 'dont care for pvp' in an mmo is because You Are Bad At It.

Please accept this.
My friends/family and I used to do fairly well at PVP in WoW. The turn off was the huge time dump required to do PVP. At the time (I haven't played WoW since Lich King was fairly new) it still appeared if you wanted to rank up in PVP you had to invest a shit ton of time instead of raiding or whatever else you wanted to do.

Granted I do believe the majority of players in these games are not very good, I think it more boils down to the masses not caring about PVP due to time and also the douche baggery that seems to come along with it. It is more interesting to fight players instead of AI, until they start exploiting.
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:17 PM   #66
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Again I know you're trolling but I'll reply anyway. Yes I played Street Fighter. Like many of you I'm sure, I was the king of SF in my local crew. I loved the competitiveness. But at the same time in my life, I loved games like Zelda and I also noticed something about those games. They were more fun when I played with my brother or friends. I didn't need to be beating people to have fun. It didn't hurt but I didn't and don't need it. To me, PVE in MMOs is like playing Zelda with friends. It's just a good time. I still play competitive games online. I just don't think of MMOs that way. As others have said, most MMOs don't fit the bill anyway. It's not like playing Starcraft against other pros. It's more like heading down to the playground to whip all of the younger kids at basketball.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:27 PM   #67
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SWTOR isn't a bad MMO, but it hinged everything on the story and dialogue, which has NEVER been the 'meat' of the genre and can't carry a game like this. As much fun as it is to do quests and dialogue with friends, it lacks staying power.

What Bioware should have done was design a Single Player game with a small multiplayer option to play the story with friends, and a larger multiplayer option for the battlegrounds, and then milk us for DLC instead of a monthly subscription. Outside of those two situations, the multiplayer 'MMO' experience offers little and places strong limitations oh what one can do with the game.
The story was ok but I can tell you it got old, fast.

As a Smuggler, I enjoyed trying to get my ship back and being this somewhat lawful neutral jackass with a heart of gold (aka Han Solo pretty much) but I got so damn tired of my class's storyline of "Oh yea that guy you're chasing, you juuuuust missed him he's on the next planet you have to go to" before I even hit level 30. If I had to sit through 20 more levels of that rehashed story I was gonna be pissed.

And my starter companion was a jackass, I could not stand Korso. I can't count how many times he'd harpoon some mob and pull them right next to us only for me to grab aggro and die. I was soooo happy to get Bowdar and not even use Korso it wasn't funny. Sadly by then the lame story just made me lose interest. And hardly anyone plays Republic so it was like a ghost town wherever I went
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:03 PM   #68
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Truth hurts

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That's just a dumbass thing to say. It's not even worth picking apart.

Dumbass.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:37 PM   #69
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please dont confuse what i do, with the adolescent pastime that is trolling.

And yes mmos can be a lot of fun - but i bet you anything if there was a Zelda online - with a multi-player sword and shield battle mode i'd be all over dat shit.

along with all the other ppl who can stomach getting owned and learning to get better.

The rest of u can go jump gannon with 25 ppl - just like u did last week and the week before... -
and show off your pretty new Tier 17 shoulders to all the others pve scrubs.

Some ppl enjoy pitting themselves against a true challenge. - ie other players. Not to say it isnt fun to run a dungeon with friends and hone your skill rotations or gear up some - it can be fun - But for me and most pvpers - it's a means to an end. Getting stronger so i can be stronger when i face my next opponent in pvp.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying either facet of the game.

But what you choose to do in a game does say a lot about you and what your good at. That's all i'm saying.

The Truth only hurts so long as your unwilling to accept it.

so all u pvers - Embrace the baddie within!

heh ok now i'm teasing.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:55 PM   #70
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Some ppl enjoy pitting themselves against a true challenge. - ie other players.
Actually pvp is a much less consistent experience than pve. In pve, the computer's always bringing his A-game. In pvp, you might face some newbs you can blow out of the water or you might face someone who's put tons more time into the game, has far better gear, and simply blows you away, more skilled then you or not.

Once, I decided to have some fun and pvp in my protection pally gear and spec. I dropped into a doubles match with an enhance shammy but she DC'd seconds before the match launched. Since it was rated, I went ahead anyway.

It turned out to be a team of rogues, neither poison, and I began laughing as they killed themselves against me for the next five minutes, leading ultimately to my solo win :P

They were acting pretty confused on why they seemed to be doing no damage to me, and why they were taking so much damage, until they realized what was going on, that I wasn't a healer, and that they had no chance :P

But back to your statement--implicit in your statement is that idea that you play to experience 'true challenge', and you seem not to realize that not everyone may play to experience that value.

Sure, there's challenge, but there's also interminable waiting for matches to start. The vast inconsistency of experiences, in which one team may be good another terrible. The repetitive arenas. Worse, the devs tune classes by kill ratio, devaluing individual skill.

Honestly, it wouldn't be particularly difficult to create bots that bring varied patterns of pvp against you and accomplish the same thing. My sense is you, and people like you, have some psychological need to triumph over actual people, some deep-rooted self-esteem problem satisfied only partially and fleetingly in that moment where you grind another player's nose into the dirt.

I simply don't have that need.

And let's turn the tables? Have you ever raided, at all? What have you done.
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:28 PM   #71
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MMO's are a dying breed...that is fueled today by people who aren't very good at games and people who wish they could have fun like they did when they started with Evercrack.
You have just described why I am bored with every MMO since. I miss my troll shaman. That feeling of attachment and identity to one character will never again be present.
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:52 PM   #72
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sure i've raided. i was one the the first mages on my server to waltz out of there with my tier 7.5 shoulders in wotlk. But after the 5th or 6th time doing those dungeons - the fun is really more about the ppl u bring and the fun they create rather than anything the PVE content is providing - if u think about this you may realize this as well - So once again you see PPL not content providing the fun in an mmo.

The real fun for me was the battlegrounds. God i had so much fun, until they started homogenizing all the classes.

- heh, did u really just type... the Computer brings it's 'A' game. lol.

and the weak point u mentioned about waiting. Like there isnt waiting in raids?

anyway. If your wondering why none of you have any truly compelling points to counter with -

it's because i'm right.
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Old 04-26-2012, 12:27 AM   #73
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But after the 5th or 6th time doing those dungeons - the fun is really more about the ppl u bring and the fun they create rather than anything the PVE content is providing - if u think about this you may realize this as well - So once again you see PPL not content providing the fun in an mmo.
True, it is fun having the people there. That sort of fun is lost in pvp too. You don't get as large groups, you aren't together for as long, etc.

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- heh, did u really just type... the Computer brings it's 'A' game. lol.
My point being that the pve experience is always consistent. Always.

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and the weak point u mentioned about waiting. Like there isnt waiting in raids?
Waiting to play ratio is far higher for me anyway.

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If your wondering why none of you have any truly compelling points to counter with -

it's because i'm right.
Your argument is ridiculous actually. You may as well claim that X genre is the only one worth playing. You can't tell people what they find fun any more than you can claim some flavor of ice cream is the most delicious, or that blondes are somehow inherently more beautiful than brunettes (I certainly would disagree with that one).
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Old 04-26-2012, 01:31 AM   #74
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The crap Peelzbury is posting here sounds aweful familiar to the year-long PvE<->PvP talk on our guild forum. Yawn...

I especially like the "we ain't playing against a script" argument.

IMO it boils down whether you like coop play or competitive versus play. It prob requires different skillsets: Almost every harcore PvPer was terrible when we invited them to PvE, I assume its the other way round, too.

And then there's the fact that even our guild's ultra-hardcore PvPs stopped PvPs cause WoWs PvP was just repeatedly broken in various patches/seasons. While you also have "flavour of the month" in PvE, it doesn't show that much.
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Old 04-26-2012, 06:14 AM   #75
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The real fun for me
That is all you need to say... the real fun for YOU!

Again, why are you pushing the way you play onto others? Everything I have heard leads me to believe that you need to do that, and try to put yourself higher than others because you need to compensate for something that is very small in your life.

There is a reason for PVE, because people want to play that. I dont see how people playing that can invigorate you so much. I dont frown on the people that play games like Mass Effect on Easy when I prefer to play it on Insanity. It just doesn't make much sense to me.

Others like the world that is given to me. Its not all about the competitiveness. If I want that, I will go play a different game other than a dang MMO. There are better game genres for the competitive spirits.

So explain to me, why you must continue to troll on and on about how you like to play a game and have to push it onto others? I am really just curious by this
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Old 04-26-2012, 06:16 AM   #76
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that blondes are somehow inherently more beautiful than brunettes (I certainly would disagree with that one).
Brunettes > Blondes. *high five*
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Old 04-26-2012, 07:24 AM   #77
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I was Realm Rank 30 before I quit playing DAoC.
I was a Knight Captain. in WoW before they did away with that awful grind system (though by then I'd decayed to Knight Lt.).
I was awarded Champion during WoW's second arena season (I think, it was in BC so it was second or third).
I PvP'd my way to glory in SWTOR with one character leveled up purely on PvP experience.

I've also been a hardcore raider ever since the days of EQ where my guild got world firsts and monopolized all the major spawns for months before finally releasing the sleeper on our server. Surprisingly, this raiding experience directly related to me getting a RL job when the employeer found out I'd "done it all" in EQ.

Raiding is about skill in playing your class, following simple instructions, on your feet decision making, watching patterns, and gear checks. Precision of the machine and the purity of watching everything come together jusssst right. The bonding that happens when overcoming a terrific challenge.

PvP is a rush and requires a similar sort of group intelligence often missing unless your guild is PvPing together. The randomness adds a different zest to the mix. But it's not as unpredicable as some would like you to believe. For example if I starting hitting a healer he's going to stop healing whoever and try to heal himself giving my team time to take out his pocket tank or just focus the healer. If I start hitting the tank or DPS I can, with a fair degree of certainty, flush out a healer that may be hiding then go after them and focus them down. Identify a target and focus it down. Then do it again. If my healer lives longer I get to win.

As soon as the healer is exposed the fight is all but over if there is any coordination. Again, the challenge is that there is often little coordination.

Skill is rarely a factor in western MMO PvP. Gear is the deciding factor and, frankly, one of the biggest reasons I quit SWTOR. It's one of the reasons I welcome GW2, because it seems like it strips the ambiguity of gear out and leaves it as a pure skill (my build/group/reactions vs. your build/group/reactions).

When I was in my gladiator gear in WoW I could STOMP anyone in PvP or lesser gear with ease... on an AFFLICTION WARLOCK who took time to do their damage. Some people were able to beat me, but in my worst match my C game could easily overcome anyone not bringing their A game with the gear imbalance.

In SWTOR expertise is everything. If you have it you own, if you don't you die. People will tromp in all the live long day and say "I beat a guy with 10,000,000 expertise so if I can do it so can u!" but the fact is that gear is still 90% of the battle.

When Bioware broke Ilum and the Empire were able to farm massive amounts of valor and get the masses equipped in Battlemaster gear, it was about all over for the Republic side at level 50 PvP. And they let this go on for nearly a WEEK before reacting.

In WoW it was resilance. I guess they need a stat to help you define what is PvP gear and what isn't otherwise the best raid gear would also be the best PvP gear (ala' WoW original release till BC).

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Old 04-26-2012, 09:28 AM   #78
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it's ok guys. please just continue to pve. I didnt come here to change your minds about that.

If you arent good enough for pvp reading 1 post isnt going to change that.

I'm here just to read good news and mock scrubs.

And.. my work here is done.
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:03 AM   #79
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it's ok guys. please just continue to pve. I didnt come here to change your minds about that.

If you arent good enough for pvp reading 1 post isnt going to change that.

I'm here just to read good news and mock scrubs.

And.. my work here is done.
Yeah you can't expect to move up through the brackets of forum pvp in just one thread. Good luck in the game tho, scrub.
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Old 04-26-2012, 01:19 PM   #80
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The bonding that happens when overcoming a terrific challenge. [in PVE]
Yes, those moments have been the greatest feeling a game has ever produced in me, leading a guild through beating SSC, the first real challenge, and then beyond to defeating Illidan. Glorious. Sublime. Unparalleled. Most people have no inkling of what that feels like. But it can only be produced by weeks of frustration channeled into productive effort leading to that final eeked out victory. Man that is the best.
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