Natal A Cheap Piece of Junk? [Archive]

Evil Avatar

11-12-2009, 12:25 PM

http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2009/50_best_inventions/inventions_control_gaming.jpg

MCV has posted some information (http://www.mcvuk.com/news/36466/Natal-launch-details-leak-from-secret-Microsoft-tour) on the launch of Microsoft's Wii-like controller for the Xbox 360, the Natal, suggesting that the hardware will run less than $50 at retail.

This and other details have emerged following a behind-closed-doors Microsoft tour of UK publishers and studios – the format-holder has been demoing the tech and detailing its 2010 plans in order to spur more development support.

Microsoft is planning to manufacture 5m units for day one release, with a mix of console and camera plus solus SKUs expected.

The device should cost under £50 when sold solo. One publishing source says Microsoft is “trying to get as close as possible to ‘impulse buy’”. Another even says the camera could even retail for just £30.

How good can it be at that price point?

TeeCakes

11-12-2009, 12:28 PM

For a gimmicky, untested peripheral that most likely none of the AAA-developers will bother supporting, I'd say $50 is the right price point.

Johan

11-12-2009, 12:31 PM

Magic Eight Ball says: "Hell yeah; cheap piece of lead-paint-covered crap."

MS better get their lawyers/accountants ready for Natal-Ring-of-Death version 2. :D

Evil Avatar

11-12-2009, 12:31 PM

For a gimmicky, untested peripheral that most likely none of the AAA-developers will bother supporting, I'd say $50 is the right price point.

Even if they do support it, be real... what can you do with it other than party-style mini-games?

Sit in front of your TV with your arms extended like you are playing a racing game. Now do that for an hour. I think it will become painfully obvious how stupid this idea is.

Hands free controlling is not for the hardcore gamer or hardcore games.

RevGored

11-12-2009, 12:33 PM

Uh, dudes. That's 50 POUNDS, not 50 DOLLARS. That's roughly double the cost in US dollars. So now the thread can turn into MICROSOFT EXPECTS US TO PAY SO MUCH FOR THIS PIECE OF SHIT instead of MICROSOFTS PIECE OF SHIT COSTS NOTHING IT MUST SUCK

Johan

11-12-2009, 12:40 PM

Right now, £50 = $82 USD. They're stating it will be just under that..perhaps even as low as £30.

It can't be very revolutionary if it's the cost of just one to two regular controllers.

Yippee.

Lutheran

11-12-2009, 12:41 PM

gzsfrk

11-12-2009, 12:43 PM

Even if they do support it, be real... what can you do with it other than party-style mini-games?

Sit in front of your TV with your arms extended like you are playing a racing game. Now do that for an hour. I think it will become painfully obvious how stupid this idea is.

Hands free controlling is not for the hardcore gamer or hardcore games.

See my post in the other Natal thread here (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1811680):

Exactly. I'm most excited about the possibilities Natal introduces with its voice and facial recognition. Swapping out which profile is logged in based on who is standing/sitting in front of the camera could be awesome. Plus, possibly being able to have an intuitive conversation with an NPC in-game, where they react convincingly to not only what you say, but your facial expressions as well, could lead to a whole new level of immersion.

Hand gestures--meh. Couldn't really care less. But having the game read me... that has the potential to be really cool.

Now let's just see whether or not they realize any of that potential.

And seriously--bashing MS because the price of Natal may be too low? Really? If it's $50-$80, it's insta-buy for me, even if it does just turn out to be No-mote Wii. Personally, I'll be surprised (albeit pleasantly so) if the stand-alone SKU releases for less than $100. But I could well see Microsoft's motivation should they do so, even at a loss, so as to quickly establish a hardware base upon which a critical mass of developers could profitably support the device.

Roc Ingersol

11-12-2009, 12:43 PM

Even if they do support it, be real... what can you do with it other than party-style mini-games?I honestly wonder if Microsoft's goal with Natal isn't the same as the HD-DVD drive: they don't really care if it takes off or not. They just want to tick off a marketing bullet-point, confuse the market and provide a drag on their competitors.

The average depth of dust on wiimotes cast plenty of doubt on the future of that whole 'market' anyway.

And RevGored: Almost nothing is priced according to direct currency conversion. Price is determined by willingness to pay. Not cost.

Evil Avatar

11-12-2009, 12:46 PM

Uh, dudes. That's 50 POUNDS, not 50 DOLLARS.

Read the original post, they said as low as £30. That brings it into the $50 range.

I think the idea of getting facial recognition hardware for $50 is pretty laughable.

And none of that should come as a surprise. We heard that most of the Milo E3 demo was faked.

Major Scud

11-12-2009, 12:56 PM

I'll reserve judgement until I actually get to play with it. I remember everyone thought Nintendo was crazy with the Wii and the DS. That being said, I have more interest in Sony's solution at the moment, even if I find myself playing 360 a lot more then PS3.

Darcydian

11-12-2009, 01:00 PM

Cheap materials maybe, but honestly would you pay any more for motion control?
I mean besides the 200+ you dropped on a Wii already.
I think MS maybe wisened up a bit I realized that price point is kind of a big deal, maybe we'll see a hard drive price drop? ....maybe right? I'll ask the winged pigs next time I see them.

abso

11-12-2009, 01:02 PM

Right now, £50 = $82 USD. They're stating it will be just under that..perhaps even as low as £30.

It can't be very revolutionary if it's the cost of just one to two regular controllers.

Yippee.

But the true power of Natal is software based... You can do object recognition stuff with the piece of shit cameras on cell phones. You don't need a 150 dollar peripheral to record motion.

Hell, a wiimote is basically just an IR/bluetooth sensor and a cheap accelerometer packaged with some buttons. 40 dollars worth of hardware (after markup), but it's the software that performs the gesture recognition and ties it to actions.

Hell, people have done motion capture similar to what natal is offering with wiimotes and IR sensors. So if you think the cost of the hardware is what determines the quality of the technology, you (in the collective sense, not Johan) are an uninformed idiot.

With that said, Natal isn't meant for the core gamer. It's a way to get people to buy an arcade + natal which competes at the price of a Wii. But the Wii has 2+ years of party games out now.

Compelling software will determine if Natal is successful, not the cost. Having a high install based for Natal will help developers determine if there is a market for the content. You know how all of you were saying Sony is killing itself by not making the PS3 cheaper, thus increasing its install base, thus giving developers incentive to make PS3 games? Yeah, MS is making the hardware cheap in order to get a large install base so developers realize there is a market to make content.

Maybe the gaming community should spend less time playing games and more time reading books or paying attention in class.

senorduck

11-12-2009, 01:05 PM

For what it's worth, shortly after we bought our Wii (and stopped playing with it a month later) i went over to my brother's apt., and we started monkeying around with a Sony Eye-Toy he had picked up for like maybe twenty bones. The upshot? The darned thing worked a lot better and we had more fun with that than i have had with the inconsistency of the wii. I agree with the SW base...if they figure that out it will be fun, and if it is cheap and fun, i'm in.

Korialstrazs

11-12-2009, 01:09 PM

90% failure rate here we come.

gzsfrk

11-12-2009, 01:13 PM

I think the idea of getting facial recognition hardware for $50 is pretty laughable.

Facial recognition is more an issue of software than hardware. Granted, if they have integrated most/all of the processing power needed to handle the facial recognition algorithms without taxing the 360s CPU, then I find it hard to believe that they can afford to manufacture and sell Natal for $50, unless they're willing to do so at a loss, as has been mentioned before.

I mean, tons of mid-range digital cameras have been doing rudimentary facial recognition for years. Why is it so unthinkable that MS, who purchased a company specifically for their specialty in this area, would be capable of delivering a product which effectively utilizes said company's software technology?

In any case, my basic point is that the challenges of facial recognition have far less to do with the quality of the camera hardware than they do with the software and the processing power required to drive it.

RevGored

11-12-2009, 01:13 PM

Read the original post, they said as low as £30. That brings it into the $50 range.

I think the idea of getting facial recognition hardware for $50 is pretty laughable.

And none of that should come as a surprise. We heard that most of the Milo E3 demo was faked.

I love how internet 'news' is completely contingent on 'they said', 'I think', and 'we heard'.

EL CABONG

11-12-2009, 01:13 PM

I not sure why people are shocked. Crappy motion controls for 50 bucks sounds better that 150-200 dollar range people where saying Natal would cost when it was announced.
I wasted 300 bucks on a Wii for crappy motion controlls. Hell 50 bucks sounds like a good deal. If its around $50 or $60 I might get one. If it was $150 or more then I doubt I ever will.

If Natal does well or even just ok. I wouldn't mind Natal 2 coming as a pack-in with the next console. More Developers would use it if they new everyone who owned the console had one. Maybe its better ths way. Put out a cheap motion contol device see what gamers think of it. Get some of the kinks out of it improve it and then maybe when the next console comes around Natal could be good.

Or maybe nobody will buy it and will be a huge trainwreck.

Syl

11-12-2009, 01:17 PM

Abso is the only one here that has any clue.

eth3rton

11-12-2009, 01:27 PM

I didn't see cheap coming but anyone should have seen junk coming as soon as Peter Molyneux gave his little Milo presentation. I was guessing the $199 range.

gzsfrk

11-12-2009, 01:27 PM

Or maybe nobody will buy it and will be a hugh trainwreck.

I'm pretty sure Mr. Grant (http://static.thehollywoodgossip.com/images/gallery/hugh-grant-mug-shot.jpg) has exclusive rights to being labelled a "hugh trainwreck".

ElPresidente

11-12-2009, 01:28 PM

And seriously--bashing MS because the price of Natal may be too low? Really?

This.

My mouth was agape upon reading the news item. Stunned I was. Stunned.

Furious Wang

11-12-2009, 01:34 PM

With that said, Natal isn't meant for the core gamer. It's a way to get people to buy an arcade + natal which competes at the price of a Wii. But the Wii has 2+ years of party games out now.

One thing that Microsoft has consistently shown over the years is that it is content in being late to a party, even if it shows up at the very end of one. Rarely are they ultimately successful in such ventures, however.

I imagine that Msoft will have a few fully fleshed out Natal only games, and a few other high profile games that MSoft will force developers to include some kind of minor Natal gimmicky content in. Other than that, Natal will pretty much fail. You'll see a large portion of those "5 million on day one" accessories sitting on racks collecting dust at stores.

One day manufacturers will learn that if an accessory isn't included, at launch, with the system then it will not be successful. The one instance I can think of where this does not hold is with the band game instruments, but those were included with multi-million selling titles with mass market appeal. And you don't see any other games offering support for those accessories either. Of course, playing a lute in Dragons Age for a quest using Rock Band's fender would have been pretty ridiculous.

gzsfrk

11-12-2009, 01:35 PM

But the true power of Natal is software based... You can do object recognition stuff with the piece of shit cameras on cell phones. You don't need a 150 dollar peripheral to record motion.

Bastard! Beat me to it. :)

Furious Wang

11-12-2009, 01:42 PM

Plus, possibly being able to have an intuitive conversation with an NPC in-game, where they react convincingly to not only what you say, but your facial expressions as well, could lead to a whole new level of immersion.

Jesus please NO. This will certainly lead to instances like this:

NPC: You look disappointed...

ME: Stares at screen

NPC: You look disappointed...

ME: Glares at screen

NPC: You look disappointed...

ME: Angrily forces a smile

NPC: Good! I'm glad you are pleased with our transaction. Let us talk of other matters...

bulldozer.sweden

11-12-2009, 01:49 PM

I think the idea of getting facial recognition hardware for $50 is pretty laughable.

Facial recognition and similar stuff isn't much "hardware" tech behind it (more than a camera), it's more programming that's the secret behind it :)

laggerific

11-12-2009, 01:51 PM

I honestly wonder if Microsoft's goal with Natal isn't the same as the HD-DVD drive: they don't really care if it takes off or not. They just want to tick off a marketing bullet-point, confuse the market and provide a drag on their competitors.

The average depth of dust on wiimotes cast plenty of doubt on the future of that whole 'market' anyway.

And RevGored: Almost nothing is priced according to direct currency conversion. Price is determined by willingness to pay. Not cost.

I really think that the PS3 motion application is the tech to go with...having a physical device in hand is extremely helpful. Personally, I really just want to see more light gun games for HD systems. If PS3 can do what it looks like it will do, we may finally see some of those new and awesome SEGA arcade games come home. And that makes me very very happy.

The natal, on the other hand, no buttons? How do I interact with the device without flailing my hands around? So silly...

gzsfrk

11-12-2009, 01:57 PM

Jesus please NO. This will certainly lead to instances like this:

-10 for posting the same response (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1811736&postcount=21) in two different threads.

http://achievements.schrankmonster.de/Achievement.aspx?text=Post%20Count%20Whore

grognard66

11-12-2009, 01:58 PM

Good post by Abso earlier in this thread.

MS just can't get a break from some of you. They get bashed constantly for over-priced accessories and now when it looks like they may be selling an accessory for a surprisingly low price they still get criticized.

Namielus

11-12-2009, 02:10 PM

Even if there are no games,I would glady pay 100$ so that I didn't need to pick up the controller to start watching a movie or quickly check my friends to see if there is a game they are all playing.

abso

11-12-2009, 02:11 PM

One thing that Microsoft has consistently shown over the years is that it is content in being late to a party, even if it shows up at the very end of one. Rarely are they ultimately successful in such ventures, however.

True, but it does let them collect market research and see what works and what doesn't prior to investing any of their own dollars. It generally takes 3 iterations with new technology until it really gets things right. MS let Nintendo try with round 1, now they are entering in round 2 (along with Sony). Nintendo is making a more refined entrance in round 2 with the motion plus accessory, which if it were present in the original Wii controller would have changed the wii mote from gimmicky waggles to actual gestures.

And it won't be until the next generation of consoles that enough developers have figured out how to incorporate these new technologies into fun activities.

I think I'm going to coin a law in this thread.

Abso's Internet Time Dilation Law: What actually takes years of research, analysis, prototyping and iteration in the real world appears to take only a nominal amount of time to those discussing it on the Internet.

Venkman

11-12-2009, 02:14 PM

How good can it be at that price point?

Make it $250 and call it the Wii. ;)

But hey, if you'd rather pay more for it, then buy all means give me the extra cash and pretend it costs more.

Venkman

11-12-2009, 02:16 PM

Dag-Sabot

11-12-2009, 02:22 PM

OmegaVader

11-12-2009, 02:24 PM

wait, we're complaining that it could be priced aggressively? what the hell...

Furious Wang

11-12-2009, 02:27 PM

True, but it does let them collect market research and see what works and what doesn't prior to investing any of their own dollars. It generally takes 3 iterations with new technology until it really gets things right. MS let Nintendo try with round 1, now they are entering in round 2 (along with Sony). Nintendo is making a more refined entrance in round 2 with the motion plus accessory, which if it were present in the original Wii controller would have changed the wii mote from gimmicky waggles to actual gestures.

And it won't be until the next generation of consoles that enough developers have figured out how to incorporate these new technologies into fun activities.

I think I'm going to coin a law in this thread.

Abso's Internet Time Dilation Law: What actually takes years of research, analysis, prototyping and iteration in the real world appears to take only a nominal amount of time to those discussing it on the Internet.

It's just that their "me too" approach is tiresome. Especially when they rarely bring anything extra to the table.

It seems as if they're playing their hand too early here. There's little chance that Natal tech will be truly successful this gen. It could potentially be huge if incorporated into MSoft's next console right from launch. However, if Natal is a failure as an extra 360 accessory, it could negatively affect MSoft's decision to include it in their next console. On the flip side, it allows Nintendo and Sony time to develop and incorporate similar tech into their own next gen systems if it does turn out to be successful.

The fact remains that is the innovators who are making the big cash. Nintendo's Wii, Apple's iPod, Google. With Natal, Zune, and Bing, MSoft enters into arenas where not only are its competitors already doing (almost) everything right product wise, they also control nearly the entire market. Why does MS insist on fighting every battle uphill? Why not *gasp* innovate itself, or find a market that isn't already dominated by a single entity and try to be the big dog there?

Evil Avatar

11-12-2009, 02:28 PM

wait, we're complaining that it could be priced aggressively? what the hell...

We are not complaining about the price only suggesting that "You get what you pay for." and that at such a low price point many (all?) of the E3 demo dream features may be missing.

Furious Wang

11-12-2009, 02:29 PM

-10 for posting the same response (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1811736&postcount=21) in two different threads.

http://achievements.schrankmonster.de/Achievement.aspx?text=Post%20Count%20Whore

I replied to a post that you put in two different threads. Not sure why you're trying to insult when I was just making a lighthearted reply to something I agree would be a neat concept in theory but think would be horribly executed in reality

Johan

11-12-2009, 02:32 PM

One day manufacturers will learn that if an accessory isn't included, at launch, with the system then it will not be successful.

Truth.

MS just can't get a break from some of you.

They don't deserve a fucking break. MS isn't my grandmother. They're a company.

If it's going to cost $50 or so, how the hell will they recoup the investment in the software/hardware, eh? Oh, I know...because it's cheap, crappy junk.

brandonjclark

11-12-2009, 02:39 PM

Why does MS insist on fighting every battle uphill?

Allow me to put this into gaming terms here, it'll probably help.

Imagine..... (fade to dream):
You're Microsoft, a level 99 Warlock with impenetrable shields and Magic Missile +30. You're bored of wandering Azeroth, having slayed your way to the top rank over a thirty year period. Now, ask yourself, wouldn't you be bored fighting boars and rats?

Venkman

11-12-2009, 02:42 PM

We are not complaining about the price only suggesting that "You get what you pay for." and that at such a low price point many (all?) of the E3 demo dream features may be missing.

Clearly the "Fox News" school of headline journalism.

Natal A Cheap Piece of Junk? How good can it be at that price point?

Is Natal made from the ivory of endangered elephants? I'm just asking questions!

http://images.southparkstudios.com//img/content/news/3789web.jpg

Natal is too cheap, Left 4 Dead 2 is too expensive, Infinity Ward has told us all to go to hell by not offering dedicated servers. One thing is for sure, for a hobby based around having fun, gamers are never happy.

brandonjclark

11-12-2009, 02:42 PM

Truth.

WiiFit was/is..

..successful.

ElPresidente

11-12-2009, 02:52 PM

I dub this the giggle thread. :)

Evil Avatar

11-12-2009, 02:58 PM

Clearly the "Fox News" school of headline journalism.

They are the #1 news channel. :p

Franjo

11-12-2009, 03:10 PM

To be honest,

I'd rather fire up my atari jaguar. Tempest 2000 ftw

Zeal

11-12-2009, 03:12 PM

not even bothering with this

DingBat

11-12-2009, 03:17 PM

How good can it be at that price point?

So.... what price point would make you happy?

bean19

11-12-2009, 03:36 PM

How good can it be at that price point?
lol. (Headline too, of course). Worst news post troll ever?

Btw, the full story has it at $80 with 5 million units (some integrated with systems and some standalone) ready at launch and 14 games. The idea of $50 is that Microsoft may take a loss (or not take a profit) to get the pricepoint down to "impulse buy" levels.

But this under-reported troll was funny.

abso

11-12-2009, 03:45 PM

The fact remains that is the innovators who are making the big cash. Nintendo's Wii, Apple's iPod, Google. With Natal, Zune, and Bing, MSoft enters into arenas where not only are its competitors already doing (almost) everything right product wise, they also control nearly the entire market. Why does MS insist on fighting every battle uphill? Why not *gasp* innovate itself, or find a market that isn't already dominated by a single entity and try to be the big dog there?

I'm pretty sure MS still makes far more money than Apple. Take away the iPod/iPhone and you have what? A niche computer company. But that's not the point here. Apple never innovated with their products, nor did Nintendo or Google. There were mp3 players and smart phones before Apple came along. There were 3D user interface technologies long before the Wii. Google didn't invent the search engine (in fact, MS had a search engine for years before Google).

None of those companies innovated - they did not create brand new technologies (well, you could argue that the algorithm used by Google was unique, except the method was a synthesis of other search techniques available in papers in published journals). They took all the data about how things worked with existing software/hardware, and they made them usable by a mass market.

That is not creating innovative tech by any means, although they certainly innovated on the process. Believe it or not, MS attempts to create more innovation out of it's research division than these other companies combined. What has google innovated on recently, an open-source phone OS? They are hardly the first phone OS makers or the first open-source OS maker. And with the restrictions placed on phones by the telco's, all of that open-source usefulness is marketing crap. Try modding your new Verizon Droid phone and see how long Verizon lets you make phone calls.

Also, the Zune HD is an excellent mp3 player, with one glaring exception - no built in external speaker. Given the number of phones that now double as mp3/video players that the Zune HD has to compete against, I can't believe a decision to not include a built in speaker was made.

grunter

11-12-2009, 03:48 PM

So what is the perfect price point that people here would be happy that the hardware "should" be ok and is not considered the overpriced accessories that MS usually dish out?

Also, for those who complain about no buttons, what makes you think that you couldn't still be holding the exisiting controller while utilising natal for face/head gestures/movments?

vallor

11-12-2009, 04:03 PM

That is a lot cheaper than I expected. On the other hand a good webcam is well under the $50 mark now so I don't know if that is surprising or not.

Of course with MS's reputation for their hardware quality I'm not sure I'd be willing to be a purchaser of one of those first 5 million units.

blackzc

11-12-2009, 04:12 PM

I liked the thread title.

I think in order to get wowed by video games these days you have to totally remove yourself for at least 4 year at a time. That way you have no reference points. Guys the 8 to 16 bit jumps are over forever, this goes for peripherals to . Nobody is gonna be like oh wow!! until we get some virtual reality or room filling hologram stuff like nintendo showed a few years back.

BGSS

11-12-2009, 04:34 PM

Maybe they're just biting the bullet a bit with the price, to help get it in the hands of more people? If it's the wrong price and no one buys it, then that just puts the nail in the coffin before it even comes out. If it's cheap enough with a game people are interested in, then it stands a chance.

bean19

11-12-2009, 04:35 PM

It's amazing how many long-time EvAvers don't get that this is a joke post.

Venkman

11-12-2009, 04:41 PM

I'm pretty sure MS still makes far more money than Apple. Take away the iPod/iPhone and you have what? A niche computer company.

IIRC, Microsoft made between $12-13 billion this past quarter, Apple made between 9-$10 billion. Given their respective market shares, that is impressive.

Take away Windows, and what have you got with Microsoft? Oh yeah, the Sudo patent! Argh! :mad:

But that's not the point here. Apple never innovated with their products, nor did Nintendo or Google. There were mp3 players and smart phones before Apple came along. There were 3D user interface technologies long before the Wii. Google didn't invent the search engine (in fact, MS had a search engine for years before Google).

Most companies don't innovate in the way you describe, including Microsoft. There were video game consoles, browsers, and operating systems before Microsoft jumped in the game, too.

None of those companies innovated - they did not create brand new technologies ...

What brand new tech has microsoft revealed lately? We really don't see brand new tech all the time from anyone.

Also, the Zune HD is an excellent mp3 player, with one glaring exception - no built in external speaker. Given the number of phones that now double as mp3/video players that the Zune HD has to compete against, I can't believe a decision to not include a built in speaker was made.

The only thing keeping me from buying a Zune HD was mac support. I want the Zune HD badly. :(

So delicious.

Mr.Green

11-12-2009, 05:02 PM

not even bothering with this

You fail at not bothering.

Johan

11-12-2009, 05:06 PM

WiiFit was/is....successful.

And incontinent people don't pee themselves constantly; just often. ;)

A few exceptions, but the truth is packing an accessory in the box heightens its chance at success.

ElPresidente

11-12-2009, 05:06 PM

That is not creating innovative tech by any means, although they certainly innovated on the process. Believe it or not, MS attempts to create more innovation out of it's research division than these other companies combined. What has google innovated on recently, an open-source phone OS? They are hardly the first phone OS makers or the first open-source OS maker. And with the restrictions placed on phones by the telco's, all of that open-source usefulness is marketing crap. Try modding your new Verizon Droid phone and see how long Verizon lets you make phone calls.

While I agree with the vast majority of this post and the rest of your posts on this subject I do feel the need to point out that the innovations of Google are generally not seen or noted by the general public. A lot of the stuff Google does is more directly aimed at helping businesses take advantage of the net.

I'm talking about their work within their analytics tools, multivariate testing and so on. Stuff the average consumer would not even know about let alone use.

Your point still stands. I just work specifically in the field of Internet Marketing and spend a lot of time talking to Google so wanted to clarify that a bit.

Furious Wang

11-12-2009, 05:14 PM

I'm pretty sure MS still makes far more money than Apple. Take away the iPod/iPhone and you have what? A niche computer company. But that's not the point here. Apple never innovated with their products, nor did Nintendo or Google. There were mp3 players and smart phones before Apple came along. There were 3D user interface technologies long before the Wii. Google didn't invent the search engine (in fact, MS had a search engine for years before Google).

None of those companies innovated - they did not create brand new technologies (well, you could argue that the algorithm used by Google was unique, except the method was a synthesis of other search techniques available in papers in published journals). They took all the data about how things worked with existing software/hardware, and they made them usable by a mass market.

That is not creating innovative tech by any means, although they certainly innovated on the process. Believe it or not, MS attempts to create more innovation out of it's research division than these other companies combined. What has google innovated on recently, an open-source phone OS? They are hardly the first phone OS makers or the first open-source OS maker. And with the restrictions placed on phones by the telco's, all of that open-source usefulness is marketing crap. Try modding your new Verizon Droid phone and see how long Verizon lets you make phone calls.

Also, the Zune HD is an excellent mp3 player, with one glaring exception - no built in external speaker. Given the number of phones that now double as mp3/video players that the Zune HD has to compete against, I can't believe a decision to not include a built in speaker was made.

Poor choice of words on my part, then. The main point was really about MSoft forcing its way into markets that already have a defined leader, resulting in them, in most cases, either losing money in said market or barely breaking even. Google is guilty of this as well, of course, trying to bugger its way into every market MSoft is topping.

Furious Wang

11-12-2009, 05:17 PM

WiiFit was/is..

..successful.

Because its a major game package similar to guitar hero. You don't see WiiFit compatibility included into any other major Wii releases like Mario, though.

MSoft could make Halo Reach a Natal controlled package, and it could sell millions, but it still wouldn't carry over into widespread ip utilization.

MacD

11-12-2009, 05:33 PM

How good can it be at that price point?

Erm...wtf? What does price have to do with anything?

It's the same idiocy which made people not buy the Gravis Ultrasound. To this day it's probably better than a soundblaster X-Fi or many other soundcards, but it was priced so rediculously cheap that it never got market penetration.

That shouldn't be a problem for a peripheral like this, though.

But it does make you wonder how MS can ask $100 for a mere wireless router.

modeps

11-12-2009, 05:41 PM

lol. (Headline too, of course). Worst news post troll ever?

But this under-reported troll was funny.

http://evavhost.com/i/other/whoelse.jpg

Evil Avatar

11-12-2009, 06:19 PM

So.... what price point would make you happy?

The one that has all the features discussed during E3. :eek:

brandonjclark

11-12-2009, 06:27 PM

Because its a major game package similar to guitar hero. You don't see WiiFit compatibility included into any other major Wii releases like Mario, though.

So an accessory has to be used by more than one game to be considered an accessory?

brandonjclark

11-12-2009, 06:34 PM

The one that has all the features discussed during E3. :eek:

There is truth here, I think. Can you really put your mind around Natal doing the things in the E3 demo at that price point? Seriously....

Zeal

11-12-2009, 06:42 PM

i just don't see why someone would want to stand up and sling their arms around like a fucking retard when you can just sit back and use a controller. controllers and mice will always offer superior (and more comfort oriented control) than some motion gimmick.

it's the same thing when touch pad computers hit. sure, they're cool for about 5 minutes, then you want to go back to using your keyboard. it's the same situation here.

i say natal will flop.

pwnophobia

11-12-2009, 07:37 PM

it's the same thing when touch pad computers hit. sure, they're cool for about 5 minutes, then you want to go back to using your keyboard. it's the same situation here.

I could see pure RTS working quite nicely on a large touch screen like Microsoft Surface. If there are programmable way points and touch screen buttons an RJS could really shine, imo.

abso

11-12-2009, 07:52 PM

While I agree with the vast majority of this post and the rest of your posts on this subject I do feel the need to point out that the innovations of Google are generally not seen or noted by the general public. A lot of the stuff Google does is more directly aimed at helping businesses take advantage of the net.

I'm talking about their work within their analytics tools, multivariate testing and so on. Stuff the average consumer would not even know about let alone use.

Your point still stands. I just work specifically in the field of Internet Marketing and spend a lot of time talking to Google so wanted to clarify that a bit.

I will admit not knowing the inner workings of how Google helps out with Internet marketing. They are rather tight-lipped about their advertising operations to those not involved in them. Given the lack of publicity on the matter, it is hard to recognize what might be innovative there, but will concede that they are probably doing something quite right to be as successful as they are.

abso

11-12-2009, 07:58 PM

Poor choice of words on my part, then. The main point was really about MSoft forcing its way into markets that already have a defined leader, resulting in them, in most cases, either losing money in said market or barely breaking even. Google is guilty of this as well, of course, trying to bugger its way into every market MSoft is topping.

But, ask yourself what would have happened had MS or Google not tried to break into the market to compete? Even if the new comer doesn't succeed, they force the entrenched companies to take notice that others will try and challenge them. That causes them to start thinking of new ideas, new products, new ways of using old ideas, or ways of making existing things work better. Our economy is fueled by such competition and someone must fail in order for the consumer to ultimately win.

MS "strong armed" their way into the game console market, and now they are sitting pretty at the top of the core gamer market segment. Sony didn't think they needed to compete, with either MS or Nintendo, and were dead wrong. Next gen Sony will get their act together. You need such competition, even with seemingly gimicky things like Natal. It forces other companies to take notice and to consider how to really make good use of the ideas.

And little known fact, all those failed ideas of MS, are still patented. When someone figures out a better way to implement those ideas, MS collects licensing fees. Those failed ideas are still generating revenue even if the consumer doesn't end up with a MS-branded item in their hands.

speeder

11-12-2009, 08:37 PM

The price is probably subsidized to some extent by the games.

TeeCakes

11-12-2009, 09:00 PM

The price is probably subsidized to some extent by the games.

That or MS will announce a new tier of XBL tied to Natal: XBL Diamond!

Only $13.95/month! Holy crap, that's cheaper than WoW, goddangit!!

</nickel+diming>

Steve Johnson

11-12-2009, 09:00 PM

It's cheap to make it a great impulse buy. The money lost on manufacturing costs will be covered by game sales and other things like xbox live.

They have to play catch up to the wii and make sure that Sony can't best them at motion controllers. Both of these would be next to impossible if natal was priced $100 or above that.

KlausFlouride

11-12-2009, 10:15 PM

Bottom line is that it is in fact a controller. Most of their controller are less then $50.

altaraxic

11-13-2009, 01:14 AM

well I don't think it can be $50 and do all the things MS says it can do. I call bs. unless they're outsourcing them to easter island, which will make them as defective as the xbox already is so why bother.

Reverend Meta

11-13-2009, 01:38 AM

They don't deserve a fucking break. MS isn't my grandmother. They're a company.

If it's going to cost $50 or so, how the hell will they recoup the investment in the software/hardware, eh? Oh, I know...because it's cheap, crappy junk.

As much as I hate to admit it... I agree with Johan. MS is a company, not his grandmother, and therefore they don't deserve a break--they want our money in exchange for their output so their output ought be up to snuff.

Second, I keep seeing people scolding each other and ruminating over how gamers are never happy. Why are you on a gaming news site then??

Third: when the hell did $50 become "impulse"?

Angelus073

11-13-2009, 02:05 AM

Its a camera, the same as the playstation eye. Never understood the fuss over a camera addon

Apex

11-13-2009, 02:45 AM

I wouldnt pay any attention to the article ... or most of the comments.

But then you dont have to listen to me, what do I know :)

drakkarim

11-13-2009, 05:13 AM

frack that, impule buy for me in 0.99. this will need to be weeded out by a few million sheep before i bother.

modeps

11-13-2009, 05:24 AM

I'm so disappointed that no one laughed at my image.

Rhaze

11-13-2009, 05:44 AM

http://evavhost.com/i/other/whoelse.jpg

Hardy har har!

There ya go modeps. ;)

modeps

11-13-2009, 05:46 AM

Hardy har har!
There ya go modeps. ;)

Don't patronize me!

kickmybum

11-13-2009, 08:45 AM

It may not be a piece of junk. MS has been known to sell items far below production costs in order to gain market share and increase households. It makes sense. Why would anyone support it if only 5% of Xbox users have it? Natal is only as good as the games that will support it so it makes sense that MS takes a heft loss on sales to get people to buy it.

gzsfrk

11-13-2009, 09:07 AM

I'm so disappointed that no one laughed at my image.

I thought it was hilarious. But I was too scared to crack a smile, what with Evil standing over there with his arms crossed, banhammer leaning against the wall beside him. :eek:

http://www.sonsofsamhorn.net/wiki/images/thumb/1/18/Coach_Buzzcut_001.jpg/180px-Coach_Buzzcut_001.jpg

EL CABONG

11-13-2009, 01:39 PM

We are not complaining about the price only suggesting that "You get what you pay for." and that at such a low price point many (all?) of the E3 demo dream features may be missing.

Some of what they showed it doing will never come to be. Scanning Skateboards and useing it to buy clothes is BS. I do think you can play games with it, video chat ,browse through menu's and maybe some voice/facial recon.

What would the features are the ones you care about? Which ones do you think if any are total BS from that E3 demo?

Grumsh

11-13-2009, 07:22 PM

I wouldnt pay any attention to the article ... or most of the comments.

But then you dont have to listen to me, what do I know :)

I am not a stalker, I just have a mind full of useless garbage (can still quote the hit charts on page 74 of the 1st edition AD&D dmg.. ya that kind of useless) but were you not employed by Lionhead, or had friends who worked there?

If so methinks your post is a convulated hint at whats to come...

vallancian

11-14-2009, 04:14 AM

Anenome

11-14-2009, 08:42 AM

You know, there is one somewhat killer app. If they can use Natal to put head-tracking into 'regular' controller-based games, that'll go a long way. But without a wiimote-like input it will still probably suck.

I'm with all the people who say that Sony's motion solution appears the most attractive and exciting right now. It's like a combination of the wiimote and Natal, a sweet-spot right in the middle. I might even be convinced to buy a PS4 if it turns out well.

What I don't understand is why this is being launched for this console generation. Splitting the base won't help things.

As for price, some of you had unrealistic expectations. It's little more than two cheap cameras, an ultrasonic transceiver, and some embedded circuitry. Doesn't have to cost much. I just wonder why they made it so big. I think you guys formed expectations based on the size of the peripheral. It's about as big as the Wii, isn't it? But like people have said, it's much more about the math being done, the software, than having some special hardware. All the money's been spent on software genies\geniuses like Johnny Lee (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw) (holy hell, that video's up to 7.5 million hits >_> ).

Evil Avatar

11-14-2009, 12:29 PM

lets face it though if natal works to the quality that MS say then it will have beaten the wii's technology hands down and it would be the big dog.

The big dog of what? A console system where only first-party titles of major franchise characters sell and everything else sits there collecting dust?

Everyone I know who purchased a Wii for their kids later had to go out and buy them a 360 so that they kids would have some games to play.

MS is too late to this party. Wii sales are dropping, third party publishers can't move a single unit on the Wii and most Wii systems sit there collecting dust.

Why they want a 'piece' of a market that disappeared as soon as it was sold is beyond me.

Grumsh

11-14-2009, 05:52 PM

The big dog of what? A console system where only first-party titles of major franchise characters sell and everything else sits there collecting dust?

Everyone I know who purchased a Wii for their kids later had to go out and buy them a 360 so that they kids would have some games to play.

MS is too late to this party. Wii sales are dropping, third party publishers can't move a single unit on the Wii and most Wii systems sit there collecting dust.

Why they want a 'piece' of a market that disappeared as soon as it was sold is beyond me.

It wasn't the hardware failing Nintendo's Wii, it was the lack of software support. So now Microsoft has the hardware coming out, it's now their turn to see if they can support it with software. Most people will admit they had fun with their Wii's (insert bad joke here) for the first couple of days.

Zeal

11-14-2009, 07:07 PM

nevermind, OP got it wrong, so thread is basically invalid.

- MCV reported that Microsoft will launch the motion control system Project Natal worldwide in November 2010, the company is aiming to ship 5 million units. The price will be around US$83/ 7500 yen / Euro 55, and 14 game titles will be available at the same time.

-magicbox

Blackfrost

11-14-2009, 09:02 PM

Mozain

11-14-2009, 09:24 PM

You know, there is one somewhat killer app. If they can use Natal to put head-tracking into 'regular' controller-based games, that'll go a long way. But without a wiimote-like input it will still probably suck.

I don't think a wiimote-like input is need to make head-tracking not suck, but rather multiple T.V's/Monitors. Head tracking does not do well without these things. I mean, if you have to turn your head to get the thing on screen to turn it's head, well then you don't know what you're\it's looking at because you're no longer looking at the screen! Unless it's a head mounted display, then it will not work, and I do not believe NATAL is a head mounted display unless I've missed something.

gzsfrk

11-14-2009, 11:44 PM

I don't think a wiimote-like input is need to make head-tracking not suck, but rather multiple T.V's/Monitors. Head tracking does not do well without these things. I mean, if you have to turn your head to get the thing on screen to turn it's head, well then you don't know what you're\it's looking at because you're no longer looking at the screen! Unless it's a head mounted display, then it will not work, and I do not believe NATAL is a head mounted display unless I've missed something.

You're apparently not familiar with the work of Johnny Lee (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw). That's what people are talking about when they mention head tracking as it relates to gaming on a regular single display. The illusion of depth of field is truly amazing and--paired with the near photo realism of today's games--could really up the immersion factor.

modeps

11-15-2009, 05:03 AM

Late to the party is what MS does best :D

Except that the 360 came out the first out of all the new consoles.

bean19

11-16-2009, 12:39 PM

I just wonder why they made it so big. I think you guys formed expectations based on the size of the peripheral. It's about as big as the Wii, isn't it?
It may be about as long and tall as the Wii, but it does not have the depth, so due to this dimension, it is signficantly smaller.

The reason for the size is that it needs to be long enough to be able to have the camera angles crossing one another in order to create depth perception.

Johan

11-16-2009, 12:43 PM

Late to the party is what MS does best :D

Except that the 360 came out the first out of all the new consoles.

And MS is the first manufacturer to successfully take console gaming online. I wonder how good PSN would be right now without Live around kicking Sony in the nuts. Perhaps as good as it was during the PS2 era! :D

bean19

11-16-2009, 02:28 PM

nevermind, OP got it wrong, so thread is basically invalid.
There is also speculation that Microsoft will lower the price to $50 in order to have it priced in the range of an impulse buy. Basically they would take a loss (or not take a profit if the manufacture cost is around $50), but even that story (don't remember where I read it) mentions that it is expected at $83. The other big fact that was released and not reported in this news post as that they expect to have 5 million units worldwide at launch both in standalone units and units with Xbox 360s.

ElPresidente

11-16-2009, 06:10 PM

I will admit not knowing the inner workings of how Google helps out with Internet marketing. They are rather tight-lipped about their advertising operations to those not involved in them. Given the lack of publicity on the matter, it is hard to recognize what might be innovative there, but will concede that they are probably doing something quite right to be as successful as they are.

Oh please don't get my post wrong. I wasn't calling you out for not knowing. I only commented because you're exactly right; if you aren't involved in the search industry then you'll never hear about much of what they do.

Anenome

01-01-2010, 07:28 PM

You're apparently not familiar with the work of Johnny Lee (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw). That's what people are talking about when they mention head tracking as it relates to gaming on a regular single display. The illusion of depth of field is truly amazing and--paired with the near photo realism of today's games--could really up the immersion factor.
This is exactly right. If you don't understand what is meant by the term "head tracking" just click this link up there and prepare to be blown away. The fact that he's got it up and running, smooth as silk, on a Wii is amazing by itself. When the next generation picks this up and runs with it it's going to be amazing. After all, Johnny Lee open sourced it, and voila, prior art. Ain't no one patenting it. I expect to see it in all three next gen consoles or they're idiots.

PatrickRes9

01-02-2010, 06:21 PM

A let down. I was hoping the Nintendo Wii would open the doorway to new gaming experiences, that involve more then simply using buttons, but alas, waaa-waaa.

Anenome

01-02-2010, 07:12 PM

The Wiimote does end up being instrumental, in that it proved the market was willing to embrace a fork in gaming towards a new paradigm--even a fundamentally flawed break. Just how willing was, I think, a shock to everyone. What I wouldn't have given to be heavily invested in Nintendo a few years ago :P

Zeal

01-03-2010, 07:10 PM

i would pretty much say the wii, in terms of hardware and design philosophy, is the worst thing that's happened to the industry since ET on the Atari.

Anenome

01-03-2010, 07:43 PM

You'll be eating those words eventually. Motion control is the future, like it or not. There'll still be games made for people like you, "controller-freaks" as you'll be known by, but those games will become more and more rare, relegated perhaps mostly to handheld games just as 2D is now.

I remember the jump to 3D, there were people who got emo because they didn't want 2D gaming to die, they railed about how bad platforming was in 3D, and refused to even play 3D games.

But Mario 64 changed all of that, didn't it. We're still waiting for the quintessential motion control game, it hasn't arrived yet. This tech is more difficult, harder to mature. It might take head-tracking or 3D before we see that game too. But it is coming. And it will convert the masses.

Johan

01-03-2010, 08:26 PM

those games will become more and more rare

Yeah, uh...NO. I'd love to see an RTS and/or complex RPG with motion-only-controls. Motion-control will be the primary control method for simple titles, and an option and/or aspect of controls for many other titles.

Games with controller-based-input rare, as you suggest? No.

Anenome

01-03-2010, 10:05 PM

Yeah, uh...NO. I'd love to see an RTS and/or complex RPG with motion-only-controls. Motion-control will be the primary control method for simple titles, and an option and/or aspect of controls for many other titles.

Games with controller-based-input rare, as you suggest? No.
They'll become rarer the longer out you project gaming, that's my argument.

RTS with motion controls? Are you kidding me? RTS is one of the game types that would most benefit from motion controls. Did you see the MS Surface demo posted not too long ago that was controlled with gestures?

And an RPG with motion controls could be a hell of a lot more immersive than our current system. We're talking mudra recognition for instant spell casting, and swinging an actual 1:1 sword and shield.

Motion control has been relegated to simple titles currently because it is imperfectly implemented. Have you tried Motion+ with the new Sports Resort? It's a different game, a different experience, much more is possible.

With head-tracking, Z-tracking on the controller, and 3D (pseudo ala Johnny Lee, or actual) the whole paradigm shifts.

There's no reason an RTS can't be done with motion controls, and done better.