Dept. of Homeland Security Warns Rootkit Distributors

[AniAko]

ComputerWorld has an article (http://www.computerworld.com/securitytopics/security/story/0,10801,108793,00.html) covering the movements the U.S. department of Homeland security is taking against dangerous software.

In fact, this is not the first time that the department has expressed concerns over the security of copy protection software. In November, DHS assistant secretary for policy Stewart Baker warned copyright holders to be careful of how they protected their music and DVDs. "In the pursuit of protection of intellectual property, it's important not to defeat or undermine the security measures that people need to adopt in these days." That's all well and good, but I hope their attention isn't being diverted from finding radical extremists in my country and trouncing their efforts of violence.

[Evil Avatar]

That's all well and good, but I hope their attention isn't being diverted from finding radical extremists in my country and trouncing their efforts of violence.

I thought that people listening to that devil "Rock & Roll" music were both radical extremists and prone to efforts of violence?

[Citizen Philip]

If there's anyone who gets the right to violate your rights it belongs in the hands of the goverment, not business. Those greedy corprate ghouls can't be trusted. If you suspect family or friends who may disagree with the DHS, they might be a terrorist and you may get a reward: report early, report often!

/rootkit DHS

[CapnBob]

That's all well and good, but I hope their attention isn't being diverted from finding radical extremists in my country and trouncing their efforts of violence.

It's not. Their attention was never really on that, so it can't be diverted.

[Montolio]

Inevitable Winter,

You actually put faith and trust in the Bush administration and their private sector cronies in Homeland Security? Thank you for the post but this information is a joke because we all know there is absolutely nothing behind these empty words. If you don't know that, just visit your favorite source for news and behold the horror that the vast majority of us somehow voted-in for another 4 year term.

The lack of integrity and intelligence on display daily is a sad state of affairs in our countries short history. We have a history of excusing most of the smaller mistakes these so-called public representatives get involved in but this is just a nightmare.

There is much to regret.

[AniAko]

I thought that people listening to that devil "Rock & Roll" music were both radical extremists and prone to efforts of violence?

Ok, I hope their attention isn't being diverted from finding radical extremists WITH BOMBS in my country and trouncing their efforts of blowing my computer up, not just messing it up :D

[AniAko]

Inevitable Winter,

You actually put faith and trust in the Bush administration and their private sector cronies in Homeland Security? Thank you for the post but this information is a joke because we all know there is absolutely nothing behind these empty words. If you don't know that, just visit your favorite source for news and behold the horror that the vast majority of us somehow voted-in for another 4 year term.

The lack of integrity and intelligence on display daily is a sad state of affairs in our countries short history. We have a history of excusing most of the smaller mistakes these so-called public representatives get involved in but this is just a nightmare.

There is much to regret.

Trust me, I'm not a Bush advocate in any way, and I am well aware of the botched administration attempts. I wasn't advocating the existence of the DHS either. But my tax dollars are paying them to do something. Whether it's a waste of money or not, I can't help it at the moment. However, they are going to exist, they should be using the money to protect my ass, not my computers ass ;).

I'll bet the only reason why they're involved is because gov't computers can be affected by the rootkits

[agentgray]

Although I support going after terrorists, I honestly think that rootkitting is a bigger threat. I would also prefer to DHS to go after this as well. I pay for it too. One of the biggest booms in the government sector right now is IT security. Get in while you can.

Planes, bombs, etc. are out in the open, but companies like Sony give them an unobtrusive tool. Way to go...bastards.

[emperordahc]

The whole 9/11 thing had people dying. The real problem was it showed how fragile the US is w/ it's economy. You knock down two buildings and the country grinds to a hault. Imagine what terrorists can do if they knocked out all of MS Windows in the US. Same situation, just didn't involve buildings and death.

Rootkit supporters are terrorists.

[AniAko]

Although I support going after terrorists, I honestly think that rootkitting is a bigger threat. I would also prefer to DHS to go after this as well. I pay for it too. One of the biggest booms in the government sector right now is IT security. Get in while you can.

Planes, bombs, etc. are out in the open, but companies like Sony give them an unobtrusive tool. Way to go...bastards.

I'm all behind that, but in my mind that's not DHS's job. We have other organizations that take care of moron companies hurting their consumers and national security.

[AniAko]

The whole 9/11 thing had people dying. The real problem was it showed how fragile the US is w/ it's economy. You knock down two buildings and the country grinds to a hault. Imagine what terrorists can do if they knocked out all of MS Windows in the US. Same situation, just didn't involve buildings and death.

Rootkit supporters are terrorists.

That's some real dangerous propaganda. If anyone that poses a threat to any sect of society, they can be marked as a terrorist? That's the same facist beliefs this bush administration wants people to believe to get us on their side.

[Taco]

That's all well and good, but I hope their attention isn't being diverted from finding radical extremists in my country and trouncing their efforts of violence.

You mean get back to laundering our tax money before passing it along to unknown destinations?

[Mason]

You knock down two buildings and the country grinds to a hault.

The NYSE was closed from Tuesday until Friday on the week of 9/11, it was back open after the 14th. Not much of a grind to a halt there.

[Nite_Moogle]

I'm all behind that, but in my mind that's not DHS's job. We have other organizations that take care of moron companies hurting their consumers and national security.
So if Joe Governmentworker puts a CD in his computer and it installs a rootkit that can be used to exploit his computer and gain access to potentially very important documents, that isn't something the DHS should be worried about?

[AniAko]

So if Joe Governmentworker puts a CD in his computer and it installs a rootkit that can be used to exploit his computer and gain access to potentially very important documents, that isn't something the DHS should be worried about?

If the DHS IT dept is allowing users that kind of freedom on critical machines, they should fire their whole IT dept and hire me :D. I had an incident on my network with a Sony DRM disk. There's now a moratorium on CDs being approved for use on company computers. We're not waging war, or filing a lawsuit with Sony ;)

That's an administration issue, although it carries the potential to cripple national security. If that's the case every virus maker should be chased by the DHS. DHS shouldn't be able to go buck wild because their IT manager was lax on security. No doubt DRM rootkit makers are at fault, but an issue of national security? or lax IT security?

[fndarkone]

that warning is tepid at best. its not so much a warning as a polite suggestion. DHS is worthless. I have yet to see it do anything competently. It's yet another mammoth bueracracy. the individual agencies were functioning just as well before dhs as after...

DHS is a catchall for fbi, cia, fema, nsa, etc. So basically dhs goes after virus writers, rootkit writers, etc because that falls under the purview of the fbi computer crimes division.

[jacktion]

That's all well and good, but I hope their attention isn't being diverted from finding radical extremists in my country and trouncing their efforts of violence.

Yeah! You're talking about republicans, right?

[King Drewsky]

Winter's comment made me chuckle.

[AniAko]

Yeah! You're talking about republicans, right?

Touche!!! Not my initial intentions, but that works even better ;)

[Zanzibar]

Whichever Presidential candidate runs in '08, all they have to do is promise me that they'll electrocute/hang/dismember/disembowel anyone caught making Adware/Spyware and they'll have my vote.

[kid cabelgo]

The whole 9/11 thing had people dying. The real problem was it showed how fragile the US is w/ it's economy. You knock down two buildings and the country grinds to a hault. Imagine what terrorists can do if they knocked out all of MS Windows in the US. Same situation, just didn't involve buildings and death.

Rootkit supporters are terrorists.


This is, by a longshot, one of the most ridiculous statements I've read in a while. And I come to this site daily, so you know something is seriously wrong.

Oh, and if hackers bent on destroying microsoft haven't been able to "knock out" all windows systems in the US in the history of hacking, what makes you think terrorists are that much better at programming?

[Dag-Sabot]

I hope they finally go after the worst of the rootkits out there, starting with starforce.

[GrinR]

bush sux DHS is useless there are no terrorists

cry more

[Eric_T_Cheng]

If there's anyone who gets the right to violate your rights it belongs in the hands of the goverment, not business.

Aren't the two one and the same these days?

[agentgray]

If the DHS IT dept is allowing users that kind of freedom on critical machines, they should fire their whole IT dept and hire me :D. I had an incident on my network with a Sony DRM disk. There's now a moratorium on CDs being approved for use on company computers. We're not waging war, or filing a lawsuit with Sony ;)

That's an administration issue, although it carries the potential to cripple national security. If that's the case every virus maker should be chased by the DHS. DHS shouldn't be able to go buck wild because their IT manager was lax on security. No doubt DRM rootkit makers are at fault, but an issue of national security? or lax IT security?
We did the same thing. Some people hated it. Some welcomed it. In this one instance I get to be an IT CZAR.

We had four comprimised.

[Tennistoad]

Watch loose change 2le on google video, Root kits are already built right into the software we use, and dhs is worried that other rootkits will screw up their own rootkits.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848&q=loose+change+2

[01010]

bush sux DHS is useless there are no terrorists



How very true.

[Royal Fool]

Next thing you know, they'll be linking piracy directly to terrorism.

[Voodoo]

HI there! I've got two friends that work in DHS IT and they are majorly suffering. Imagine having to create a sophisticated network system using AT MOST Pentium III 700mhz most of the time. They should do a Battlestar Galactica and remove the damn network because the IP filtering is so poor. Plus they are mostly running a mixture of Windows 2000 and Windows NT 4.0. It is really terrible.

Sure you can blame it on the Bush Administration all you like, that isn't the source of the problem... The problem with secure IT departments at the federal level is widespread. Doesn't anyone remember that guy that stole the nuclear secrets during the Clinton years? Hello?!

The source of the problem is the fat cats in congress whom have no accountablity. The funding for Information Technology at the federal level is very good but often gets routed to the incorrect destination. Much like their filtered network.

LOL!

[emperordahc]

Next thing you know, they'll be linking piracy directly to terrorism.
Haven't they been doing that for a few years now?

[GrinR]

Bu$hitler is dah DEBBIL! AmeriKKKa is #1 terrorist!

lol, this stuff never gets old. It's almost like everyone was born yesterday. Of course the network infrastructure is wide open to attack - we haven't had the IT 9/11 happen yet. If govts "pre-emptively" start enforcing security, it's ECHELON ZOMG tin-hat time, and if they do nothing they are incompetant. *shrug* so what else is new?

I'm more afraid of flesh-and-blood holy war than I am of my home computer having it's megorhurtz stoelzen.

[01010]

Bu$hitler is dah DEBBIL! AmeriKKKa is #1 terrorist!

lol, this stuff never gets old. It's almost like everyone was born yesterday. Of course the network infrastructure is wide open to attack - we haven't had the IT 9/11 happen yet. If govts "pre-emptively" start enforcing security, it's ECHELON ZOMG tin-hat time, and if they do nothing they are incompetant. *shrug* so what else is new?

I'm more afraid of flesh-and-blood holy war than I am of my home computer having it's megorhurtz stoelzen.


You seem far more reactionary than anyone else in this thread, what's your problem?

[Zanzibar]

You seem far more reactionary than anyone else in this thread, what's your problem?

GrinR is one of the site's few hardcore conservatives. Invariably, whenever a post that can be deemed political shows up, Bush and the rest of the neocons bet bashed heavily here. GrinR's just pre-empting the bashing.

[Voodoo]

GrinR is one of the site's few hardcore conservatives. Invariably, whenever a post that can be deemed political shows up, Bush and the rest of the neocons bet bashed heavily here. GrinR's just pre-empting the bashing.

In case anyone is clueless about what the word neocon means...

Neoconservatism refers to the political movement, ideology, and public policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_policy) goals of "new conservatives" in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States), who are mainly characterized by their relatively interventionist and hawkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawkish) views on foreign policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_policy), and their lack of support for the "small government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_government)" principles and restrictions on social (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_issues_in_the_United_States) spending, when compared with other American conservatives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_conservatism) such as traditional or paleoconservatives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleoconservatism).

[GrinR]

GrinR is one of the site's few hardcore conservatives. Invariably, whenever a post that can be deemed political shows up, Bush and the rest of the neocons bet bashed heavily here. GrinR's just pre-empting the bashing.

A. Describing me as a "hardcore conservative" says a lot more about how liberal you are than how conservative I am.

B. "the rest of the neocons"? Did I miss something? Even in the conservative thread I made for conservatives only I would only count maybe one other neocon aside from myself.

C. I'm not pre-empting, I'm ridiculing. In particular, I'm ridiculing the editor's comment regarding a either-or situation when it comes to national security AND how much of a low-priority this DHS warning is.

[Achilles]

That's all well and good, but I hope their attention isn't being diverted from finding radical extremists in my country and trouncing their efforts of violence.I hear they've only got one guy working there, so yeah he's probably very distracted by having to look into the rootkits. :rolleyes:

[Zanzibar]

A. Describing me as a "hardcore conservative" says a lot more about how liberal you are than how conservative I am.

B. "the rest of the neocons"? Did I miss something? Even in the conservative thread I made for conservatives only I would only count maybe one other neocon aside from myself.

C. I'm not pre-empting, I'm ridiculing. In particular, I'm ridiculing the editor's comment regarding a either-or situation when it comes to national security AND how much of a low-priority this DHS warning is.

A. Perhaps you're right. But you call yourself a 'neocon' in your part B; perhaps there's a subtle difference that I'm missing between 'neocon' and 'hardcore conservative.' I'm guessing they're alike; perhaps they're not.

B. I was referring to 'Bush and the rest of the neocons' as in Cheney, Rumsfeld etc., not 'GrinR and the rest of the neocons' as in you and...well...whoever else that visits the site.

C. I agree. There's no reason why DHS should only be able to handle one thing at a time. Of course, judging from FEMA/Katrina/'Heckuva Job" Brownie, maybe they can't even do ONE THING right. ;)

[GrinR]

I said it here first: Our government did a remarkable job despite the lethal incompetance of the emercency officials (Ray Nagin, that scumbag, in particular IMO).

Read it and wake up (http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2315076.html?page=2&c=y)

[Magnanimous Gnome]

You seem far more reactionary than anyone else in this thread, what's your problem?


He's just a crazy conservative. I was actually surprised to find out that he is so young in the "significant other" thread. I always pictured him as being a cantankerous old man. It's sad to see most conservatives following lockstep behind Bush and co. How dare we question the competence of our leadership? Dissent is bad and unpatriotic!!



GrinR - How is Ray Nagin the worst of the bunch? He's not exactly an "emergency official." Being the mayor of New Orleans doesn't mean that you have to coordinate relief efforts. That was the job of Brownie and the federal government. They fucked it up.

[Achilles]

GrinR - How is Ray Nagin the worst of the bunch? He's not exactly an "emergency official." Being the mayor of New Orleans doesn't mean that you have to coordinate relief efforts. That was the job of Brownie and the federal government. They fucked it up.Actually when a natural disaster hits the local officials are the ones who coordinate the relief because they know the turf the best. The federal government is too slow for such things as we've seen. The feds will supply money and people to the local government, but will not directly take control of the situation, usually.

Look at any other hurricane, namely the ones that hit Florida every year. Or even the earthquake that hit California. It's the local officials that are supposed to have plans in place and coordinate the relief.

[laggerific]

Sure you can blame it on the Bush Administration all you like, that isn't the source of the problem... The problem with secure IT departments at the federal level is widespread. Doesn't anyone remember that guy that stole the nuclear secrets during the Clinton years? Hello?!

The source of the problem is the fat cats in congress whom have no accountablity. The funding for Information Technology at the federal level is very good but often gets routed to the incorrect destination. Much like their filtered network.

LOL!


This is like saying that Bill Gates isn't a source of the monopolistic tendencies of MS...I mean we all know of his earlier wacky antics with IBM and later with netscape, and the list goes on and on.

Bush is a serious part of the problem...if not for his direct involvement in all the terrible things that have happened over the past 5 years, then for his lack of leadership in taking this country forward. And after that, its not Bush that runs this country anyway...cheney now has presidential priveleges, and he can shoot people and get apologies for it.

[laggerific]

He's just a crazy conservative. I was actually surprised to find out that he is so young in the "significant other" thread. I always pictured him as being a cantankerous old man. It's sad to see most conservatives following lockstep behind Bush and co. How dare we question the competence of our leadership? Dissent is bad and unpatriotic!!



GrinR - How is Ray Nagin the worst of the bunch? He's not exactly an "emergency official." Being the mayor of New Orleans doesn't mean that you have to coordinate relief efforts. That was the job of Brownie and the federal government. They fucked it up.


That's the deal...I guess I would be okay with the balance the conservatives might be able to bring to the table, if they were interested in balance, and if they would think critically...which means thinking outside the comfort zone, thinking outside the easy pitfalls the misinformation machine digs out for everyone. I can't accuse anyone of following behind bush and his cronies as being anything but ideologically stunted.

[Achilles]

And after that, its not Bush that runs this country anyway...cheney now has presidential priveleges, and he can shoot people and get apologies for it.Right. More like 'he can have a hunting accident, nearly kill one of his best friends, and get destroyed in the press for it as they link it to everything from Katrina to Tora-bora.' It was a hunting accident while he was on vacation, and the guy probably feels terrible about it.

[laggerific]

Right. More like 'he can have a hunting accident, nearly kill one of his best friends, and get destroyed in the press for it as they link it to everything from Katrina to Tora-bora.' It was a hunting accident while he was on vacation, and the guy probably feels terrible about it.


Probably because events don't happen in a vacuum, and there are still a lot of unanswered questions regarding the incident. Sure it's not as serious as 9/11 or the assassination of JFK, but it's similar in the way information is handed out like treats for dogs. The man deserves to be destroyed in the press for far more egregious things, but sadly this admin is not answerable to anyone about anything. This should have been a clear case of how they are open with us...but they screwed that up too.

Cheney wanted Armstrong to report the event because he didn't think people would believe him? Yeah, well, I wonder why people have trouble trusting this administration and those tightly tied to them, such as the owner of the ranch that the shooting happened at. But then again, it was just a random hunting accident on a random plot of land, surrounded by random people that just happened to be there...yeah, that's the ticket.

[Achilles]

Cheney wanted Armstrong to report the event because he didn't think people would believe him? Yeah, well, I wonder why people have trouble trusting this administration and those tightly tied to them, such as the owner of the ranch that the shooting happened at.The fact that he informed the family and the local authorities before the Whitehouse press core isn't a nock against him, sorry. Hunting trips do happen in a vacuume, it's a vacation, it has nothing to do with Tora-bora. The press can try to nail him with everything they have disagreed with because of this incident, but it'll just make them look insane.

[GrinR]

He's just a crazy conservative. I was actually surprised to find out that he is so young in the "significant other" thread. I always pictured him as being a cantankerous old man. It's sad to see most conservatives following lockstep behind Bush and co. How dare we question the competence of our leadership? Dissent is bad and unpatriotic!!

It's funny. I never call people here "stupid liberals" or any of the other derogatory monikers that "hard core conservatives" like me use, yet I am constantly labeled with shit like "crazy conservative." Dissent is bad when you are protesting against the very freedoms that enable you to dissent. It's called suicide, and when we're sharing the same air and you decide "we" don't need air, I don't feel a great need to protect your rights anymore. Or in other words, when survival is on the line, the rules change accordingly.

GrinR - How is Ray Nagin the worst of the bunch? He's not exactly an "emergency official." Being the mayor of New Orleans doesn't mean that you have to coordinate relief efforts. That was the job of Brownie and the federal government. They fucked it up.

A. I watched his speeched to the newscrews while it was happening. I watched him on Meet the Press (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9240461) . I watched his entire testimony to congress. He is a lying, shifty bastard who played every cowardly card you can: race, poverty, rank, and fate were his pathetic excuses for why he completely failed to do the right thing over and over and over again. If he were white, he would be toast, just like the poor sap in charge of FEMA. It made me want to vomit watching senators tip-toe on eggshells around the complete failure of his performance while he sat there pointing fingers at anything and everything else. In my world, he'd be stripped of all rank and forced to live in any of the obliterated parishes for the rest of his life. The mold would suit him.

B. "Being the mayor of New Orleans doesn't mean that you have to coordinate relief efforts." Maybe on Reverse-World it doesnt'.

C. "That was the job of Brownie and the federal government. They fucked it up." Read what I already linked. There was a clusterfuck of executive command that resulted in a near standstill of clear direction from the top levels (all levels) of government. The pain of accountability starts with the local, goes up through the state, and what is LEFT flops weakly at the federal doorstep. We don't live in Soviet Russia just yet, despite how many people seem to want it.

That said, despite that executive level seizure, there was an unprecidented relief effort by all levels of government, as well as civilian relief groups. Far from being a poor relief response - it was the best we've ever seen.

[laggerific]

The fact that he informed the family and the local authorities before the Whitehouse press core isn't a nock against him, sorry. Hunting trips do happen in a vacuume, it's a vacation, it has nothing to do with Tora-bora. The press can try to nail him with everything they have disagreed with because of this incident, but it'll just make them look insane.


The press corps wasn't asking for Cheney to call Mclellan to call the ambulance for him...I think most people were just interested in the timing of the situation...and it is suspicious that the police didn't talk to him that day. Just because he is VP does not mean that he should be any less accountable for his actions than the rest of us. And as I said, there are a lot of questions regarding the situation that could have been avoided if the whole thing didn't reek of further cronyism....

and the point about armstrong alerting the press wasn't about the timing of the situation, but his excuse for it...he knows he has no credibility, so how can he possible lead except by misdirection and lies...if one could call that leading.

[laggerific]

It's funny. I never call people here "stupid liberals" or any of the other derogatory monikers that "hard core conservatives" like me use, yet I am constantly labeled with shit like "crazy conservative." Dissent is bad when you are protesting against the very freedoms that enable you to dissent. It's called suicide, and when we're sharing the same air and you decide "we" don't need air, I don't feel a great need to protect your rights anymore. Or in other words, when survival is on the line, the rules change accordingly.



A. I watched his speeched to the newscrews while it was happening. I watched him on Meet the Press (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9240461) . I watched his entire testimony to congress. He is a lying, shifty bastard who played every cowardly card you can: race, poverty, rank, and fate were his pathetic excuses for why he completely failed to do the right thing over and over and over again. If he were white, he would be toast, just like the poor sap in charge of FEMA. It made me want to vomit watching senators tip-toe on eggshells around the complete failure of his performance while he sat there pointing fingers at anything and everything else. In my world, he'd be stripped of all rank and forced to live in any of the obliterated parishes for the rest of his life. The mold would suit him.

B. "Being the mayor of New Orleans doesn't mean that you have to coordinate relief efforts." Maybe on Reverse-World it doesnt'.

C. "That was the job of Brownie and the federal government. They fucked it up." Read what I already linked. There was a clusterfuck of executive command that resulted in a near standstill of clear direction from the top levels (all levels) of government. The pain of accountability starts with the local, goes up through the state, and what is LEFT flops weakly at the federal doorstep. We don't live in Soviet Russia just yet, despite how many people seem to want it.

That said, despite that executive level seizure, there was an unprecidented relief effort by all levels of government, as well as civilian relief groups. Far from being a poor relief response - it was the best we've ever seen.

One has to admit that it was mismanaged on many many levels...but I think a lot of peoples feelings about the federal side of the issue were created mainly from the perceived (rightly or wrongly) indifference of our president and vice-president. But, we haven't seen powerful leadership in this administration in the decades its been around...now we've theorized about it, but so much of it is underground we have nothing else to feel but total distrust for this crew and its cronies.

[Mason]

Far from being a poor relief response - it was the best we've ever seen.
You realize that when you spin like that, you're in danger of causing new hurricanes.

[laggerific]

You realize that when you spin like that, you're in danger of causing new hurricanes.


Oh man...hilarious.

that must have been what caused the second hurricane right after.

"Brownie, you're doing a heckuva job."

Now, he didn't seem all that willing to backup this admins side of the story recently...and he could have easily continued to point fingures at the local figures, but he realizes that when all is said and done, he is respnsible for the federal part of the situation, and sadly failed along with most of the people at that high a level.

[GrinR]

You realize that when you spin like that, you're in danger of causing new hurricanes.

I knew it wouldn't last. A blustering ego must be fed, eh Mason? A pity.

[GrinR]

One has to admit that it was mismanaged on many many levels...but I think a lot of peoples feelings about the federal side of the issue were created mainly from the perceived (rightly or wrongly) indifference of our president and vice-president. But, we haven't seen powerful leadership in this administration in the decades its been around...now we've theorized about it, but so much of it is underground we have nothing else to feel but total distrust for this crew and its cronies.

So you think Bush and his cronies should have executive control of local and state governments? If Bush had taken over day one and sent in all the forces at his command, completely ignoring the Constitution and the laws of the land, would you have been happy?

[laggerific]

So you think Bush and his cronies should have executive control of local and state governments? If Bush had taken over day one and sent in all the forces at his command, completely ignoring the Constitution and the laws of the land, would you have been happy?

Actually, no...What would make me happy is for these people to get off their asses and work with their subordinates. It doesn't need to be taken to that extreme, and there are things the federal government can do in parallel with local help. It's this lack of immediate response that had hijacked plans just flying all over the place and crashing into buildings. Or was that New Yorks fault?

I'm just saying that we need to hold this administration accountable for its actions, and that doesn't mean giving a pass to the local authorities, but they have a job to do as well, but I guess when one wants to drown the government in a bathtub its easy to overlook its functionality.

[GrinR]

Actually, no...What would make me happy is for these people to get off their asses and work with their subordinates. It doesn't need to be taken to that extreme, and there are things the federal government can do in parallel with local help. It's this lack of immediate response that had hijacked plans just flying all over the place and crashing into buildings. Or was that New Yorks fault?

I'm just saying that we need to hold this administration accountable for its actions, and that doesn't mean giving a pass to the local authorities, but they have a job to do as well, but I guess when one wants to drown the government in a bathtub its easy to overlook its functionality.

I think you would benefit from more research in regards to what happened during the Katrina disaster. As a New Yorker, I'll ignore the weird connection you're drawing to 9/11.

As for accountability - I agree. There is a desperate lack of accountability, but fingerpointing and wailing is not the solution.

[Voodoo]

This is like saying that Bill Gates isn't a source of the monopolistic tendencies of MS...I mean we all know of his earlier wacky antics with IBM and later with netscape, and the list goes on and on.

Bush is a serious part of the problem...if not for his direct involvement in all the terrible things that have happened over the past 5 years, then for his lack of leadership in taking this country forward. And after that, its not Bush that runs this country anyway...cheney now has presidential priveleges, and he can shoot people and get apologies for it.

Microsoft's business practices != American Government

Simple question for you, when it the last time you visited with an elected offical and voiced your opinion?

Mine, two weeks ago.

The major problem in the US Government is not in the executive branch. It is with those that are not accountable anymore. Many members of congress have not even been challenged for their seat for many many years. Some of them have not been challenged for over 20 years. How do they represent the people of their district? Guess what... They do not.

They represent those that lobby to get legislation passed...

$8 million dollars on average is spent to gain a seat in congress, whose salary is $180K per year.

Would you trust someone at your company that paid that company more than 10x their yearly salary to obtain that job?

You're aiming at the wrong branch...

[Achilles]

The press corps wasn't asking for Cheney to call Mclellan to call the ambulance for him...I think most people were just interested in the timing of the situation...and it is suspicious that the police didn't talk to him that day. Just because he is VP does not mean that he should be any less accountable for his actions than the rest of us. And as I said, there are a lot of questions regarding the situation that could have been avoided if the whole thing didn't reek of further cronyism....

and the point about armstrong alerting the press wasn't about the timing of the situation, but his excuse for it...he knows he has no credibility, so how can he possible lead except by misdirection and lies...if one could call that leading.Your whole theory is built on the idea that the Vice President thinks he doesn’t have enough credibility for people to believe that he accidentally shot his friend while quail hunting. I just have to point that out because it’s absurd.

As for him being less accountable than the rest of us: if I took my friend out and accidentally shot him with bird shot, I would not have to report that to the press. I would tell the local authorities, then the hospital would tell the press when they thought it was the right time and the victim was alright with it, or the local police would. Which is what he did. ‘The rest of us’ do not make our own press releases surrounding accidents to national media.

[laggerific]

Your whole theory is built on the idea that the Vice President thinks he doesn’t have enough credibility for people to believe that he accidentally shot his friend while quail hunting. I just have to point that out because it’s absurd.

As for him being less accountable than the rest of us: if I took my friend out and accidentally shot him with bird shot, I would not have to report that to the press. I would tell the local authorities, then the hospital would tell the press when they thought it was the right time and the victim was alright with it, or the local police would. Which is what he did. ‘The rest of us’ do not make our own press releases surrounding accidents to national media.

He said it with his own words that he wanted her to tell the story first because he wanted people to believe the story, which implies people just don't trust him. If people did, he wouldn't have to say stuff like this to Brit Hume:

Q -- and it does raise the question of whether you couldn't have headed off this beltway firestorm if you had put out the word to the national media, as well as to the local newspaper so that it could post it on its website. I mean, in retrospect, wouldn't that have been the wise course --

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, who is going to do that? Are they going to take my word for what happened? There is obviously --

As seen here: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/02/20060215-3.html

Also, when the VP of the US shoots someone that is news worthy, if you hurt someone it's not so newsworthy (although FOX/MSNBC/CNN/mainstream media seems to think that sort of thing is newsworthy, all the time neglecting to focus on really heinous crimes going around the world...it's what true journalist do). The mainstream media appears to suck for both sides, if what I hear is correct: on the left because they seem not seek the truth and subtext to events very dire to our nation, and on the right well, I'm trying to think why...

[laggerific]

Microsoft's business practices != American Government

Simple question for you, when it the last time you visited with an elected offical and voiced your opinion?

Mine, two weeks ago.

The major problem in the US Government is not in the executive branch. It is with those that are not accountable anymore. Many members of congress have not even been challenged for their seat for many many years. Some of them have not been challenged for over 20 years. How do they represent the people of their district? Guess what... They do not.

They represent those that lobby to get legislation passed...

$8 million dollars on average is spent to gain a seat in congress, whose salary is $180K per year.

Would you trust someone at your company that paid that company more than 10x their yearly salary to obtain that job?

You're aiming at the wrong branch...

Come on, give me some leeway with the MS analogy...I was speaking specifically about this administration, not necessarily the America Government...which I happen to appreciate, unlike some neocons - Norquist I'm talking about you. And as a natural cynic, I don't trust much about corporations or the government, but that's what helps keep one on alert, and constantly asking questions.

Also, the president as a leader can urge certain initiatives and work with the other branches to achieve positive change. It's weird when reading the gaggle that people are complaining that the press corps has just gotten too liberal without even considering for a second that its our administration that has gone off track. Why are people so inclined to trust an administraiton that has been so so wrong...such an utter failure. Also, the buck stops at Bush, if he wanted the congress to pass a sane budget he would veto their crap ESPECIALLY if the bill that you sign is different between the house and senate versions. If he wanted the congress to take better care of rebuilding New Orleans, he could probably work to get it. If he cared that the congress walked around like muppets controlled by lobbyists he could urge some true reform. But it isn't in his interest to do any of these things...he is as indifferent to us as the dictators his father used to put into power. There is a sizable plurality out here if not majority that says these guys are seriously bad for the country and world.

[GrinR]

Laggerific, shut the fuck up.

(sorry that's the scotch talking.)

[Heretic Machine]

Trust me, I'm not a Bush advocate in any way, and I am well aware of the botched administration attempts. I wasn't advocating the existence of the DHS either. But my tax dollars are paying them to do something. Whether it's a waste of money or not, I can't help it at the moment. However, they are going to exist, they should be using the money to protect my ass, not my computers ass .

You know, personally, I'm way more worried about rootkits than terrorists. Why? Because one is some-what likely to happen to me, and the other has less of a chance of happening to me than winning the lottery.

[Achilles]

He said it with his own words that he wanted her to tell the story first because he wanted people to believe the story, which implies people just don't trust him. If people did, he wouldn't have to say stuff like this to Brit Hume:Would you say that interview that you linked was an example of the Vice President’s deception and lies? And his answer to the questions was pretty much what I was saying:
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, my first reaction, Brit, was not to think: I need to call the press. My first reaction is: My friend, Harry, has been shot and we've got to take care of him. That evening there were other considerations. We wanted to make sure his family was taken care of. His wife was on the ranch. She wasn't with us when it happened, but we got her hooked up with the ambulance on the way to the hospital with Harry. He has grown children; we wanted to make sure they were notified, so they didn't hear on television that their father had been shot. And that was important, too.
But we also didn't know what the outcome here was going to be. We didn't know for sure what kind of shape Harry was in. We had preliminary reports, but they wanted to do a CAT scan, for example, to see how -- whether or not there was any internal damage, whether or not any vital organ had been penetrated by any of the shot. We did not know until Sunday morning that we could be confident that everything was probably going to be okay…
And Katherine suggested, and I agreed, that she would go make the announcement, that is that she'd put the story out. And I thought that made good sense for several reasons. First of all, she was an eye-witness. She'd seen the whole thing. Secondly, she'd grown up on the ranch, she'd hunted there all of her life. Now the bit about trusting his account is in there, he’s talking about the accuracy of the initial report and being as accurate as it can be, and getting a reporter that knows the difference between birdshot and buckshot. He also clearly doesn’t trust the press and I wonder why.

So after this whole interview what you got out of it is that Cheney thought he wasn't trustworthy enough to report it himself and that ties into everything he's done in public office. Good luck with that.

Thanks for pointing out the interview out though, I'd missed it. Very in-depth and honest.

[Vulture]

Sorry late to the Thread.

Laggerific really likes to talk about stuff when he does not know the facts. PERIOD.

In Texas most accidental shootings do not result in charges. In fact for Hunting Trips the usual result is an incident report filed by a deputy sheriff or constable and can occur days later. The priority is to treat the victim(s) of the firearms accident.

So long as no criminal activity occurs, just how is it manadatory for a public official to report his actions that are outside his official duties? Right it isn't.

Texas Firearms Instructor
Austin, TX

[Voodoo]

Come on, give me some leeway with the MS analogy...I was speaking specifically about this administration, not necessarily the America Government...which I happen to appreciate, unlike some neocons - Norquist I'm talking about you. And as a natural cynic, I don't trust much about corporations or the government, but that's what helps keep one on alert, and constantly asking questions.

Also, the president as a leader can urge certain initiatives and work with the other branches to achieve positive change. It's weird when reading the gaggle that people are complaining that the press corps has just gotten too liberal without even considering for a second that its our administration that has gone off track. Why are people so inclined to trust an administraiton that has been so so wrong...such an utter failure. Also, the buck stops at Bush, if he wanted the congress to pass a sane budget he would veto their crap ESPECIALLY if the bill that you sign is different between the house and senate versions. If he wanted the congress to take better care of rebuilding New Orleans, he could probably work to get it. If he cared that the congress walked around like muppets controlled by lobbyists he could urge some true reform. But it isn't in his interest to do any of these things...he is as indifferent to us as the dictators his father used to put into power. There is a sizable plurality out here if not majority that says these guys are seriously bad for the country and world.

I'm sorry that you seem to have your governmental facts all mixed up. A presidental veto can be overturned by the legislative branch... Here are a few links all about the process...

Explaination of how Vetos work
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veto

Explaination of how the legislative branch works
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_One_of_the_United_States_Constitution

And finally a list of all vetos in the history of the US and how many have them been over turned
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._presidential_vetoes

Finally you say that the President has some overbearing power on the House and Senate. I'm sorry but all he can do is implore the congress to do things. Those that get things done in that congress are those that no longer represent the people they were once meant to.

I'm suprised you are not more upset at a congress that does not represent the people, has no term limits and finally passes many bills based on lobbiest agendas.

At least we will get a new president in a few years. That will be an opportunity to flush any corruption in the executive branch. The same CAN NOT BE SAID about congress.

[laggerific]

Laggerific, shut the fuck up.

(sorry that's the scotch talking.)

Sure it's not your inner Cheney?

[laggerific]

I'm sorry that you seem to have your governmental facts all mixed up. A presidental veto can be overturned by the legislative branch... Here are a few links all about the process...

Explaination of how Vetos work
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veto

Explaination of how the legislative branch works
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_One_of_the_United_States_Constitution

And finally a list of all vetos in the history of the US and how many have them been over turned
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._presidential_vetoes

Finally you say that the President has some overbearing power on the House and Senate. I'm sorry but all he can do is implore the congress to do things. Those that get things done in that congress are those that no longer represent the people they were once meant to.

I'm suprised you are not more upset at a congress that does not represent the people, has no term limits and finally passes many bills based on lobbiest agendas.

At least we will get a new president in a few years. That will be an opportunity to flush any corruption in the executive branch. The same CAN NOT BE SAID about congress.

I understand that he can only implore them to do things, but what he does and does not implore can shed light on his focus for leadership. I'm not saying that the congress and senate gets me cheery, just that it appears to be a collaborative effort to screw average citizens over.

[MojoJojo]

and it is suspicious that the police didn't talk to him that day. Just because he is VP does not mean that he should be any less accountable for his actions than the rest of us. And as I said, there are a lot of questions regarding the situation that could have been avoided if the whole thing didn't reek of further cronyism....
For hunting accidents in that part of the state, the police may not get with you that day. It's not considered an emergency and the police there don't feel the need to tape off what they consider the un-crime scene and collect un-evidence... it literally happens all the time during hunting season, and if you have a plausible story and no one looks to be seriously injuried/dead at the time, they don't care to waste what little manpower they have on what they consider to be routine stuff. To them, it's like calling the cops if your wife accidentally dropped a knife on your foot or if you had a minor fender-bender.

Now, I'd think, were I the police and the VP were involved, I'd probably want someone on site that day, but he actually got treated like everyone else in that respect.