Dragon Age Rip-Off Redux

[Evil Avatar]

http://www.evilavatar.com/images/thumbs/dragonage_logo.jpg

If you thought that $7.00 extra for some DLC was a rip-off... check out the Direct-to-Drive digital version (http://www.direct2drive.com/3/8459/product/Buy-Dragon-Age:-Origins-Digital-Deluxe-Edition-Download) of Dragon Age: Origins, which has no box, no manual and no DVD and still runs a frosty $64.95.

$65 for a game GoGamer will probably be selling for $20 in three months. What are these people thinking???

[Emabulator]

But you get Horse Blood Dragon Armor! I'll pass.

[BleedTheFreak]

Not sure if you are aware, but that edition also comes with the Warden Keep DLC which is valued at $7 to make up for the lack of a tin box and cloth map...

[rulyblue]

Warning!!! I'm going to be very trite!!!

Fandom: (people who are really really big fans)


Really big fans: "Like; Oh ma gawd! I'll pay anything for a game so long as it's Blizzard, Bioware etc..."

[Kweli]

Guess they need to make up some money for all the time wasted putting together their daily videos/trailers

[saulob]

Not sure if you are aware, but that edition also comes with the Warden Keep DLC which is valued at $7 to make up for the lack of a tin box and cloth map...

Yeah. They need something to explain why it's the same price.

Amazing.... not!

[krackmonkey]

Once the game is installed, how does the box or the disc actually help you? In most instances, the disc is actually a hindrance since SuckyouROM inevitably craps out on legit copies more often than not. I understand the need for media and a box a little bit more in the case of console games, but on PC, as long as I have access to it when I need it, I could care less what format it resides in. The pricing thing is a bite in the ass, but if what we're truly paying for is what happens once you press start, then why not pay the same amount? (playing devil's advocate here)

[Andruil]

I'm a little confused, The Box price is 65$ right? Wouldn't the people who sell box copies stop selling them if the downloaded version was sold for 20$ or even a measily 5$ cheaper? After all, what incentive do they have to market and sell your game just so someone can go buy it online for cheaper?

Pretending that I'm a game seller / distributer (whatever the technical term may be) why would I ever want to allow the downloaded version to be the same price as the box copy?

[lockwoodx]

Once the game is installed, how does the box or the disc actually help you? In most instances, the disc is actually a hindrance since SuckyouROM inevitably craps out on legit copies more often than not. I understand the need for media and a box a little bit more in the case of console games, but on PC, as long as I have access to it when I need it, I could care less what format it resides in. The pricing thing is a bite in the ass, but if what we're truly paying for is what happens once you press start, then why not pay the same amount? (playing devil's advocate here)

The box and disc help when you go to trade it in for credit at a reseller.

[thFOOL]

The box and disc help when you go to trade it in for credit at a reseller.

Which you can't do with a PC game anymore....

Seriously, this is a non-story.

[Qoz]

I have no outrage for paying this amount. It's basic trade mechanisms - supply and demand. If you are so insulted by this high initial price, then JUST WAIT!!!

They have invested alot of money in this game and made no compromise regarding age classification, so they need to buff the price for the early buyers.

The alternative is to not have such games at all.
I do agree that the day 1 DLC is a pretty stupid idea. It's a slippery slope towards having games sold in pieves of content. "You want to play as a barbarian in Diablo3??! Then buy the DLC at day 1!"

They should just keep some small extra stuff in a collectors edition, and make DLC appear at least some months after.

[hatred]

So, $7 is a rip-off? You need a better job. Also, you don't have to buy it.

[modeps]

So, $7 is a rip-off? You need a better job. Also, you don't have to buy it.

Read the whole thing before posting please.... and for someone named hatred, you're way to nice and forgiving ;)

[Itchyeyes]

Really? We need a 3rd thread to beat this dead horse?

Not only is this thread completely redundant, but it's also (intentionally?) misleading. This is the "deluxe" edition of the game and includes several bonus extras, including exclusive in game items, the Warden's Keep DLC everyone is so peeved about, and game soundtrack.

Direct2Drive also has the same exact regular version of the game at the same exact $50 that everyone has it for. What exactly is the news here? That there's a collector's edition of this game, just like every other game released in the last decade?

[vherub]

the box and box art probably costs $.45, the manual $.65 and the dvd $.25 price per unit, with unit shipping costs in the ballpark of $.04-$1 depending on whether they sell by a standard carton quantity.
Let's round up and say unit costs are $4- probably much lower since the printrun has to be sizable for this. The bulk of the cost of making a game is the plant costs (coding, design, copyediting, testing, etc, etc) and company overhead (salaries, advertising, rent, etc).
I don't think the people making games are pulling home giant paychecks- or even have tremendous job security as they bounce from title to title. They are just trying to make fun games and earn a living.

People making serious money, ripping off consumers, they tend to work in finance.

[gzsfrk]

I will not pay the same price for any downloadable game as I would a retail boxed copy. Period. It's the principle--if the publisher is not having to pay for physical distribution and account for retailer markup, they should not be charging the same price for the game. They should at MINIMUM meet consumers iin the middle and charge half of the difference between the price they sell the boxed copy to the retailer MINUS manufacturing and distribution costs.

To wit:

Fair downloadable game price = boxed copy price charged to retailer - (manufacturing costs + distribution costs ) + ( .5 * retailer markup ) + ( incremental bandwidth & hosting cost )

I think that would be reasonably fair, as both publisher and consumer would benefit. As it is now, the publishers are just seeing dollar signs and drooling over their balance sheets at the prospect of removing the retailer from the equation so they can suck in twice the margins they're currently receiving.

[brandonjclark]

I don't think having a boxed copy with a cloth map has too much to do with actually trading it in.

Call me crazy, but there was a time when people actually "collected" things. It was weird, I know. People would buy Collector Editions just to see a different box than other people, or just to hold a cloth map because they liked to imagine the game world better.

Crazy stuff, I tell ya!

[ashampine]

The digital edition comes with Warden's Keep and The Stone Prisoner - two pieces of DLC that you'll have to pay for with the boxed set (unless you spring for the collector's edition). Also a few other toys for your character.

I personally don't have any use for the box or map, so I'm happy to get the digital edition with the extra content and goodies and I think the price is fair. For those who like the cloth map, it's available. Choice is a wonderful thing!

[modeps]

I don't think having a boxed copy with a cloth map has too much to do with actually trading it in.

Call me crazy, but there was a time when people actually "collected" things. It was weird, I know. People would buy Collector Editions just to see a different box than other people, or just to hold a cloth map because they liked to imagine the game world better.

Crazy stuff, I tell ya!

That's a good point. This is a collector's edition with nothing to collect.

I used to be one of those people who collected game stuff... Until I pre-ordered Ultima Ascension and it's super sized Collectors Edition back in the day... I couldn't play it because it was the buggiest piece of shit ever, and honestly, think that game single handedly turned me off to collector's editions. Fuck you Origin.

[Roc Ingersol]

Price is set by willingness to pay, not cost.

[Crimson]

That's a good point. This is a collector's edition with nothing to collect.

I used to be one of those people who collected game stuff... Until I pre-ordered Ultima Ascension and it's super sized Collectors Edition back in the day... I couldn't play it because it was the buggiest piece of shit ever, and honestly, think that game single handedly turned me off to collector's editions. Fuck you Origin.

Congrats, you win... Origin is dead! Yay!

As for this Dragon Age rage, I don't get it. You don't have to buy the game, you don't have to buy the DLC. If you want to pay tax, drive to the retail chain, store a giant box, and fondle your cloth map, then get the box version. If you just want to play the game, have the DLC, the OST and the docu-videos, then get the digital CE version. I thought the complaints about paying the same for the digital version as the box version were old already, why are they being dragged out again for this game? I agree that both versions costing the same is fairly bogus, but honestly if more money ends up going to the developer rather than Gamestop/Walmart etc... then I'm fine with that. Why are we reading thread separate news posts beating roughly the same story to death. Lame.

[Itchyeyes]

Price is set by willingness to pay, not cost.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/mnikkel55/applause-1.gif
Technically, it's set by both. But you still get kudos since almost everyone else on this forum seems to think cost should be the only factor.

[emyln]

This is a very lame post.

Its got absolutely nothing to do with Dragon's Age. Its about a digital download costing the same as a box copy.

2 years ago the very concept of getting game via digital download was CRAZY! Impossible! No one was doing it. Now we have the added option of digital download and people are going ape shit about how crazy the cost is and etc etc etc.

Do I think a digital copy should cost the same as a box copy? Of course not. I would love for it to be $10-20 cheaper. But its going to take time for the industry to change. The fact that this is even an option is a step in the right direction.

And to Evil's post about selling the game off after 3 months, some of us like to keep our games. Especially pivotal ones like KOTOR or Baldur's Gate 2, or Planescape:Torment.

[BleedTheFreak]

Yeah. They need something to explain why it's the same price.

Amazing.... not!

It's the same price because you still get the sound track and all the other goodies, just not the cloth map in a nice tin box. You lose the cloth map and the box but get the $7 DLC content free. What's not to understand?

Hell, I'm thinking about cancelling my pre-order with Gamespot just so I can get the digital version of the CE - I'd rather have Warden's Keep than a cloth map and Tin box.

[brandonjclark]

Price is set by willingness to pay, not cost.


Sony would like a quiet word with you in the corner.

[BleedTheFreak]

Sony would like a quiet word with you in the corner.

Out of curiosity, what do you mean? What would Sony have to say on the matter?

[Itchyeyes]

Out of curiosity, what do you mean? What would Sony have to say on the matter?
I think he was being sarcastic. As in Sony wouldn't want him spilling the beans about willingness to pay setting price, since they routinely try to aim for the high end of the market and get burned by setting their prices higher than peoples' willingness to pay.

[kickmybum]

Seems like normal price to me. I double Dragon Age will sell for $20 in 3 months. Mass Effect is finally around that price after a couple of years.

[Exodus]

Out of curiosity, what do you mean? What would Sony have to say on the matter?

It's called the pspGo. Research and form your own conclusions.

[Evil Avatar]

And to Evil's post about selling the game off after 3 months, some of us like to keep our games. Especially pivotal ones like KOTOR or Baldur's Gate 2, or Planescape:Torment.

I didn't say anything about selling the game after 3 months. I said the game would COST less after 3 months. Which goes along with the original idea that a digital version of the game shouldn't run the same price (or more) than a retail boxed version.

You have seen the GoGamer sales we promote -- this title is probably already cheaper than $65 when purchased from GoGamer and it will only go down from there after several months or (heaven forbid) if it sells poorly and they get overstocked.

It is absurd for them to price digital versions of a game -- a version that should be cheaper due to the publisher and developer not having to give a cut of the profit to a retailer -- for more than a retail boxed copy.

Someone else said above... a few years ago you wouldn't even be able to buy a digital vesion of a game. Why make it tougher for people to lean toward buying digital products by overpricing them?

[PopoWRX]

...
It is absurd for them to price digital versions of a game -- a version that should be cheaper due to the publisher and developer not having to give a cut of the profit to a retailer -- for more than a retail boxed copy.

Someone else said above... a few years ago you wouldn't even be able to buy a digital vesion of a game. Why make it tougher for people to lean toward buying digital products by overpricing them?

It looks like you are paying $15 extra for 3 exclusive in-game items, the Warden Keep DLC, and the Digital Soundtrack.

The Xbox 360 version will already run for $59.99. I personally don't see a problem with the premium price. Isn't D2D and Steam and others acting as "retailers" anyway? I'm assuming they don't host these games as some sort of charity.

I'm assuming they keep the price points where they are at so they don't lose Wal-Mart or any of the big chains that move a ton more games then digital sales.

All that being said, I'm probably waiting for a GoGamer Madness sale on this one haha.

[thFOOL]

I didn't say anything about selling the game after 3 months. I said the game would COST less after 3 months. Which goes along with the original idea that a digital version of the game shouldn't run the same price (or more) than a retail boxed version.

You are assuming that the price for the digital download won't go down over three months as well. Of course, I guarantee you that even when GoGamer drops that price that I can still go to Best Buy or WalMart or Target and still find some way to pay full price for the game.

I think the only news here is that you don't want to buy digitally, so don't.

[lockwoodx]

Out of curiosity, what do you mean? What would Sony have to say on the matter?

The first 3 dismal years of the PS3.

[UttiniDaKilrJawa]

I'll just wait a year on this game.
If its awesome, I'll be able to get a GOTY version of it with all the DLC for the same price or cheaper than the new one.
If it sucks, I'll be able to find it for 15 bucks:)

Either way. I win :)

[Anenome]

Price is set by willingness to pay, not cost.

And do you think there just might be a eency weency tiny relationship between cost and willingness to pay? Maybe? Just maybe? :|

[brandonjclark]

I think he was being sarcastic. As in Sony wouldn't want him spilling the beans about willingness to pay setting price, since they routinely try to aim for the high end of the market and get burned by setting their prices higher than peoples' willingness to pay.


I think it's a friggin' amazing trait of humans that someone can know EXACTLY what you are thinking and someone else in the same group doesn't have the slightest idea.

Really, it's a weird thing.

[donkeydrop]

Unfortunately the guys running video game publishers are generally not good businessmen and don't understand that the optimum price is very rarely the highest one. A lower price brings increased sales and potentially more profit. Most publishers are afraid to discount the price because they risk criticism if the sales are not as good as expected; instead they take the easy way out by charging the same as everyone else. Even if this is losing them millions of dollars they are "safe".

Just as an example, take the sales of Halo 3 ODST. Microsoft is already patting themselves on the back about how well it is selling and telling themselves that they were right to sell it as a full priced game. However, sales have actually been less than half that of the original Halo 3 in the same period after launch. Pretty good for an expansion pack, sure, but what is also clear is that at least half of their existing market was price sensitive. Those people would have paid $60 for Halo 4, but not for an "expansion pack". Suppose that those additional people could be induced to buy at $40. Then a launch price of $40 would actually have increased MS profit by 1/3. Sure that's purely theoretical, but even a basic understanding of economics tells you that except for a very few of the hottest games every year $60 is not the price that will maximize profit.

[Anenome]

Unfortunately the guys running video game publishers are generally not good businessmen and don't understand that the optimum price is very rarely the highest one...

You're right, they need to stop charging $ ∞ for games. Because, infinity dollars is way too much to pay for a game. Like, you could only afford barely even one game at that price.

Do you even know how many paychecks that is? That's like... that's like... that's a lot.

[Reverend Meta]

I am excited for this game. However...
I'll just wait a year on this game.
If its awesome, I'll be able to get a GOTY version of it with all the DLC for the same price or cheaper than the new one.
If it sucks, I'll be able to find it for 15 bucks:)

Either way. I win :)
...this.

[Roc Ingersol]

And do you think there just might be a eency weency tiny relationship between cost and willingness to pay? Maybe? Just maybe? :|No.
Quality (perceived or objective) and willingness to pay? Sure.
Cost -- wholly unknowable to the consumer? No.

The first 3 dismal years of the PS3.Was anyone convinced that $600 was an acceptable price for a PS3, after Sony told them it cost $800 to build? No? Huh.

[Itchyeyes]

I think it's a friggin' amazing trait of humans that someone can know EXACTLY what you are thinking and someone else in the same group doesn't have the slightest idea.

Really, it's a weird thing.
I think you might see this phenomenon reduced if you tried not stating things as vaguely as humanly possible. Your sarcasm, or lack thereof, does not translate into text.

[brandonjclark]

I think you might see this phenomenon reduced if you tried not stating things as vaguely as humanly possible. Your sarcasm, or lack thereof, does not translate into text.


Meh, I think those I'm speaking(?) to are able to keep up, that's enough for me.

[drakkarim]

Not sure if you are aware, but that edition also comes with the Warden Keep DLC which is valued at $7 to make up for the lack of a tin box and cloth map...

except the CE costs $60 on amazon, if you add the $7 for the keep, that's still only $2 more for having all the extra physical goodies.... seems like a no brainer to me.

[Jadbalja]

I think you might see this phenomenon reduced if you tried not stating things as vaguely as humanly possible. Your sarcasm, or lack thereof, does not translate into text.

It's a lot easier if you've been on EvilAvatar a while and know the commenters. I usually run brandon through my sarcasm filter, so I usually understand exactly what he's saying.

[Anenome]

No.
Quality (perceived or objective) and willingness to pay? Sure.
Cost -- wholly unknowable to the consumer? No.


- Obviously we're talking at cross purposes here, because in my world, cost is right on the product when you go to buy it. If you mean to say cost of production then say that. 'Cause I mean cost to own.

[Grumsh]

the box and box art probably costs $.45, the manual $.65 and the dvd $.25 price per unit, with unit shipping costs in the ballpark of $.04-$1 depending on whether they sell by a standard carton quantity.
Let's round up and say unit costs are $4- probably much lower since the printrun has to be sizable for this. The bulk of the cost of making a game is the plant costs (coding, design, copyediting, testing, etc, etc) and company overhead (salaries, advertising, rent, etc).
I don't think the people making games are pulling home giant paychecks- or even have tremendous job security as they bounce from title to title. They are just trying to make fun games and earn a living.

People making serious money, ripping off consumers, they tend to work in finance.


You miss a minor important fact. Who is pocketing the extra dollars that would normally be retailer mark-up?

For example just to pull random numbers (usual retailer markup is 100% so this isn't absolutely random number's I am inventing).

Your average game sells for $60 (rounding here to make this easy to understand).
So using my guesstimate numbers the retailer paid $30 for the game and they profit $30s.
So the dev house etc. are splitting the $30 profit among themselves.

If that same game is sold through digital chanels, all $60 are profit for the dev house etc to split among themselves (and dont tell me its all in download server costs, I call bullocks on that claim).

So YES digital downloadable games SHOULD be cheaper then retail copies of games.

[Anenome]

You miss a minor important fact. Who is pocketing the extra dollars that would normally be retailer mark-up?

For example just to pull random numbers (usual retailer markup is 100% so this isn't absolutely random number's I am inventing).

Your average game sells for $60 (rounding here to make this easy to understand).
So using my guesstimate numbers the retailer paid $30 for the game and they profit $30s.
So the dev house etc. are splitting the $30 profit among themselves.

If that same game is sold through digital chanels, all $60 are profit for the dev house etc to split among themselves (and dont tell me its all in download server costs, I call bullocks on that claim).

So YES digital downloadable games SHOULD be cheaper then retail copies of games.
- You are correct sir. And what's more, it's likely that developers make more money from digital downloads than from physical copies. I'd love to know if that's true however.

[gzsfrk]

- You are correct sir. And what's more, it's likely that developers make more money from digital downloads than from physical copies. I'd love to know if that's true however.

I have no idea why you'd assume that to be the case. I have any inclination to believe that EA or Activision are any more scrupulous than GameStop. I'd bet that, unless the developer is self-publishing (like Valve does on the PC side), they see jack squat more return on a direct download as opposed to a retail sale.

Of course, I would be very happy (for developers) if someone has some actual data with which to prove my cynicism wrong.

[Anenome]

No, I'd be very surprised if that was the case. There's a whole lot of cost to a publisher for marketing, shipping, packaging, paying the retailer cut, etc. I'll bet most devs get something like a 50/50 split or worse from a big name publisher.

But, with digital delivery, there's no cost on top of all that. The publisher's just skimming what's fair, and it's always going to be less than a brick'n'mortar because they're doing less. This actually also results in many more sales of the game since they can immediately discount the cost of packaging, shipping, etc., and both publisher and dev can in theory make the same amount of money.

So, here with Borderlands you can get it for $45, but a hard-copy willl cost you $60. That $15 represents middleman markup. So, all the money they would've spent on packaging, printing, shipping, now goes to pub and dev to split.

I'd be quite surprised if they weren't making more per sale via Steam than on hardcopy. But, I'm not a product guy. I know there's some people who could sketch the numbers on this with a lot more reliability than me.

[Anenome]

I don't doubt that one day we'll probably get games directly from the website of specific companies, and perhaps even Steam will become an anachronism.

If you take out the cost of serving the game via Steam--that is, take out what the publisher's making, let's say 30%, then you could buy Borderlands for just over $30. Damn, how many people would buy this instantly at that price. Here we've halved the price if a triple-A title by cutting out hard-copy packaging and a distributor.

[Grumsh]

I have zero loyalty to brick 'n mortor stores. I would gladly pay for example using my fake figures from earlier pay $40 for a downloadable game that costs $60 at the box top store. I would actually buy MORE games like this which would equal MORE profits/sales for the developers etc.

Seriously the box tops don't keep good games coming out, so I have zero qualms about removing them from the profit pie.

[gzsfrk]

I have zero loyalty to brick 'n mortor stores. I would gladly pay for example using my fake figures from earlier pay $40 for a downloadable game that costs $60 at the box top store. I would actually buy MORE games like this which would equal MORE profits/sales for the developers etc.

Seriously the box tops don't keep good games coming out, so I have zero qualms about removing them from the profit pie.

I don't think I've read anyone arguing that DD games are a bad alternative to retail if the pricing on the DD games is at least marginally lower than their boxed equivalents. What has lots of people (including myself) highly critical is when a publisher offers DD games at the SAME PRICE as I would pay at a retail outlet, which is a simply ludicrous value proposition.

[Grumsh]

I don't think I've read anyone arguing that DD games are a bad alternative to retail if the pricing on the DD games is at least marginally lower than their boxed equivalents. What has lots of people (including myself) highly critical is when a publisher offers DD games at the SAME PRICE as I would pay at a retail outlet, which is a simply ludicrous value proposition.

Actually my comment was a reply to an earlier post you made, not sure why the quote part didn't take.. I would love to support DD also, but I wont do it at the same price as the same game at the BoxTop store.

[mikeohara]

Seems like I lucked out in getting the CE from Amazon, mainly because of sales tax here in Texas. Now granted, I still have the DLC to buy once I obtain my physical copy of the game, but it seems like a good incentive for anyone who gets the game from D2D.