Could the PS3 Kill Sony?

[Kamalot]

David Walker from eHomeUpgrade takes a look at the upcoming PS3 (http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/2100/could_the_playstation) and tries to cut through some of the reality-distortion effect of Sony’s hype machine. The article isn’t out to trash Sony, but it does attempt to cut through the BS to look at the product as a whole, how it will be received in the market and what the possible drawbacks / pitfalls may lie in wait.

Some of the items covered are:

Load Times

one aspect of gaming that is often ignored, but can become a major issue is load times. Ask any Sony PSP owner what annoys them most about the portable console and you are sure to hear about it's dreadful load times.
HD-DVD vs. Bluray

Whereas Microsoft has little to lose if HD-DVD fails, Sony has everything to lose. Additionally, recent announcements at CES in January indicate that the least expensive Blu-Ray drives will start at $1000 while HD-DVD is hitting the market with players starting at $500. Many analysts saw these changes as giving HD-DVD a second-wind that could ultimately hurt Sony more than it helps HD-DVD
DVD vs. Bluray

The jump from DVD to Blu-Ray (or HD-DVD) is not as significant, unless you're an HDTV owner. Even then, the question remains: Is Blu-Ray content going to be compelling enough to make me say "I have to have it?"
Games

Now, Microsoft has the head start. Additionally, the Microsoft unit has already been praised by the likes of John Carmack (creator of Doom, Quake, etc...) for it's great development environment, while Hideo Kojima of Metal Gear Solid fame has expressed some concerns that development for the PS3 could be more difficult than for the Xbox 360.
A good 'big-picture' read, especially the part about the load times.

[bapenguin]

I wonder if the 1X Blu-Ray thing applies to DVD content. Like maybe that's the transfer rate for a blu-ray disc, but is a DVD disc faster? Just curious.

[Mortis]

I think this is a great article and some of the points are ones I had been thinking about myself recently. (Blu-Ray pros/cons and costs of an online competitor to Live along with the PS3 in general)

[Schnoogs]

The one detail that concerns me is development ease...I don't doubt the rumors that the 360 is easier to develop for...but then again the Ps2 was supposed to be tough to develop for and it was the clear winner from the last round of consoles..

who knows

[lost]

A quote from the recent PS3 feature in EDGE magazine from a publisher...

"We are still treating PS3 as the cornerstone of the next generation"

I think this PS3 killing Sony shit is retarded to be blunt. Publishers and developers are all still working away on titles for it. If they were worried it wasn't going to hit the spot they wouldn't waste the supposed massive increases in resource use.

I don't want to get into "ask these people and these people and these people" sort of discussion but the worlds leading electronics manufacturer will have enough internal people to tell them they are about to screw up if thats the case. Every decision at Sony isn't made by Kutaragi alone.

Next-gen, if you look at it sensibly rather than speculatively (whether your speculations are based on various analysis' or a perception of Sony overhyping) it's most likely we will see 360 gain a greater marketshare that it's predecessors whilst the PS3 will still be the leader.

Just whilst I'm batting for Sony's corner a lot of this disapproval of hype seems to be due to what are perceived as PR lies regarding PS2. Please take into account that every platform sets out with aims. Not all of the PS2 teams' were realised quite obviously. It wouldn't be the only time though would it? How many mini-games did you play on your VMU for example?

If anything the hype that surrounds these now mainstream product launches should be treated with more rational by us than anybody else. We made this shit what it is remember.

EDIT: Just regarding development ease. The PS3 SDK comes pre-packed with the new Unreal Engine, Havok and Aigia graphics and various other tools due to company buy-overs. They are putting, strike that have put serious efforts into making alien technology easier to program for. The SDK has sufficient tools to deal with both rendering and physics. Much of the middleware is middleware most developers will be used to from previous experience.

[Citizen Philip]

Who the hell is ehomeupgrade, and why do I care about their opinion?

http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/forums/member.php?userid=642

You see that profile? Says he is a staff writer. That's prolific!

[Serapth]

Just whilst I'm batting for Sony's corner a lot of this disapproval of hype seems to be due to what are perceived as PR lies regarding PS2. Please take into account that every platform sets out with aims. Not all of the PS2 teams' were realised quite obviously. It wouldn't be the only time though would it? How many mini-games did you play on your VMU for example?

To be honest, im not sure what most of your point was, but I feel a need to respond to this one. See, there is a difference between being ambitious and falling short of your target and spouting off complete bullshit. Sony, previous gen and current gen, do the later. Its not a matter of a few small fibs, its shit like saying the PS2 EE is so powerful it needs to be banned for hostile countries because it could power nukes ( not made up... and sadly, there was an article about this just last week about the Cell processor ). How about real time CG graphics? What about the Killzone 1) being a halo killer 2) KZ2 being "realtime"? What about the PS3 aging your SD Video to HD like a fine wine? What about last weeks announcement of PS3 having a live killer?

See, sony doesnt just hype... they spew utter bullshit, and the more jaded ( and intelligent?) people are sick of it. Throw DRM and Rootkit shit ontop, and trust me, there are plenty of reasons to dislike sony and sonys pr machine.



EDIT: Just regarding development ease. The PS3 SDK comes pre-packed with the new Unreal Engine, Havok and Aigia graphics and various other tools due to company buy-overs. They are putting, strike that have put serious efforts into making alien technology easier to program for. The SDK has sufficient tools to deal with both rendering and physics. Much of the middleware is middleware most developers will be used to from previous experience.

Ummm... so? This has jackshit to do with Sony and everything to do with the middleware provider. Unreal Engine and Havok were available for the PS2 aswell ( and the Xbox, and the GC ). The only thing I can take from your point is yes, middleware makes it easier to deal with the complex aspects of the platform. Ironically, if a company is going to go ahead and use UE or Renderware, chances are they are going to release their game on multiple platforms. No real net gain to Sony at all. Oh, not to mention the > 1Mil $ pricetag on the UE.

[Kamalot]

The one detail that concerns me is development ease...I don't doubt the rumors that the 360 is easier to develop for...but then again the Ps2 was supposed to be tough to develop for and it was the clear winner from the last round of consoles..
You know, that is a good point. The PS2 was a bitch to write for, but it also had a year of lead time between it and the Xbox / GameCube. Development studios had plenty of time to get their feet wet before the competition came along. By the time Nintendo and Microsoft hit the market, developers had most of the problems solved and tools set up to work. This time, the PS3 does not have a year lead-time for developers to get up to speed.

Famitsu just interviewed 47 Japanese developers asking them which system they thought would be the market leader in Japan for 2006. The results may shock you (http://kamalot.blogspot.com/2006/02/analysis-of-system-expectations-2006.html). While I didn't expect the Japanese development community to choose the Xbox 360 as their development platform of choice, I also didn't expect to see only 16.7% of developers choose the PS3 as the leading console, slightly above those that chose the Nintendo Revolution.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/68/411/320/lead2006-developers.1.jpg (http://kamalot.blogspot.com/2006/02/analysis-of-system-expectations-2006.html)

[Zurik]

Here's something for the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray arguement.

http://lfw.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=ARTCL&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=168962&KEYWORD=holographic%20disk&p=12

If you want more information, do a google on Holographic disks. These things seem sweet, but they'd have to be adopted by the big players to get any recognition.

I might add, with this kind of technology in developement, how long will either HD-DVDs or Blu-Ray disks last?

[bapenguin]

Is anybody else sick of the term Next-Gen?

[lost]

Serapth Microsoft told you Halo 2 would be all sorts of shit that it wasn't. There's bull with every company but you can't just decide that they won't produce something better than XBL just because you can't imagine it. Likewise a PS2 probably could have launched a nuke but why would you use it for that? 2-player Chaos Theory is much more fun or did somebody actually test that out?

And the point you obviously didn't get is that certain middleware is pre-packed within the PS3 SDK, middleware that companies are familiar with and will be glad not to have had to pay full price for.

[johnperkins21]

Here's something for the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray arguement.

http://lfw.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=ARTCL&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=168962&KEYWORD=holographic%20disk&p=12

If you want more information, do a google on Holographic disks. These things seem sweet, but they'd have to be adopted by the big players to get any recognition.

I might add, with this kind of technology in developement, how long will either HD-DVDs or Blu-Ray disks last?

The whole holographic disc argument has been brought up before. It's not out yet, and won't be out this year. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will be out this year, so bringing up a technology that nobody is planning on using in the next couple of years is kind of a wasted argument. I remember hearing about how they were using crystals as the next big digital media 10 years ago. I'm certain that this next wave of optical discs will end up being similar to the laserdisc in that it doesn't reach the mainstream, but for those of us that have just dropped thousands of dollars on an HD TV, we will gladly welcome movies that take full advantage of the technology.

[Serapth]

Serapth Microsoft told you Halo 2 would be all sorts of shit that it wasn't. There's bull with every company but you can't just decide that they won't produce something better than XBL just because you can't imagine it. Likewise a PS2 probably could have launched a nuke but why would you use it for that? 2-player Chaos Theory is much more fun or did somebody actually test that out?


Ahhh... I agree. Its the job of PR people to push the truth as far as they can. That said... first, I dont really recall being lied too that much about Halo 2. The only thing I seem to recall being told what it would be like that it wasnt, was the on earth aspects were much briefer then I though. Second, again, this is a difference between aiming high and missing your target ... or... just being full of shit. 1) Missing target... Microsoft. 2) Full of shit, Sony. See the difference?


Lets put it this way... see a difference between these two scenarios?

Scenario 1, being promised certain features in a game that didnt quite make it.
Scenario 2, being promised features in a game system that are impossible to implement!

If you dont see a difference between those scenarios... try these ones.

Scenario 1, being promised by a thug, he wont hurt you. Then, getting kicked in the shin.
Scenario 2, being promised by a thug, he wont hurt you. Then, having your head blown off by a shotgun.

See... both lied. Its a matter of scale. But scale is a very very important thing.


And the point you obviously didn't get is that certain middleware is pre-packed within the PS3 SDK, middleware that companies are familiar with and will be glad not to have had to pay full price for.

Oh... you think the developers are geting a break here? Hahaha... yeah...........

If anything deving on the Ps3 is going to be more of a financial ass-reaming. There are one of two scenarios. 1) you get shipped the middleware and if you use it you pay for it ( aka, business as normal + a small bit of conveinence ) or 2) you pay for shit you potentially wont use. Neither is really the great for the end party. Plus, with the rumours going around about PS3 dev costs, it wouldnt shock me if its more 2 then 1.

[lost]

What lies could Microsoft tell you about the XBox? They came into the market with a product that was only really different in what sort of graphics it could fire out. They had a good little while to see what was working in the last lot of consoles. PS3, whilst it might be coming out after 360 was being developed for just aslong as the 360 was. There was no ready knowledge they could have used. So what have they done? Tried to go one better (or three if your going to compare how many wireless controllers a console can support) than what they expected Microsoft to do. Expected rather than knew. Perhaps they've overshot some and will end up pulling back on certain features that will be deemed unnecessary to compete...or maybe not...maybe they will come through on everything they've said. But hey, you couldnt say Killzone wasn't going to be better than Halo until you played it.

All I was doing was giving the other side to the arguement. Sony might be arrogant but they aren't stupid. Rest assured that they can cover whatever the 360 might through at them. Likewise, Microsoft aren't going to lay down and die.

Your going to be told by Sony that whatever they intend their Live-like service to be like it's going to be better than Microsofts. Likewise Microsoft aren't going to go "ah yeah shit, we're beat".

Just look at it all from both sides.

[EternalGamer]

I'm not so much tired of the term "next gen" as I am tired of the tone of these "next gen threads. Stuff like this:

. . . shit is retarded. . .

.[Your shit] . . has jackshit to do . . .

Seriously guys. Chill out. There is no reason to shout angrily at the world either to defend or attack PR. These things are of little consequent. If you want something to be angry about, at least you could find something more important. BUt even then, I doubt your likely to make much difference just telling people they are full of "shit" all the time.

Dan

[Kelegacy]

Why do the same people always post the anti-threads? What agendas do you people have, and WHY do you care?

[Nite_Moogle]

Sony is too big of a company to be brought down by a single product.

[Kamalot]

Sony is too big of a company to be brought down by a single product.
Perhaps.

Sony is putting an awful lot of eggs in one basket. Even now they are cutting divisions, products and employees left and right. It looks like the PS3 may be their big gamble.

[Serapth]

lost, dont get me wrong, I dont think either company is perfect. I dont think either product is perfect.

All im saying is Sony lies more then Microsoft.

Hell, Sony lies more then any company I know of other then Exxon.

[Kelegacy]

Perhaps.

Sony is putting an awful lot of eggs in one basket. Even now they are cutting divisions, products and employees left and right. It looks like the PS3 may be their big gamble.
They are cutting the same way an editor preens a major novel. You have to trim the dead branches for a tree to grow taller, clear the debris for a train to keep on plowing forward. Trimming the fat, sculpting the clay, mowing the lawn...any of those could be metaphors for the reformation that Sony is trying to undergo.

They aren't going anywhere, even if the PS3 bombs terribly. People don't know much about companies and business if they think otherwise.

[Serapth]

I'm not so much tired of the term "next gen" as I am tired of the tone of these "next gen threads. Stuff like this:





Seriously guys. Chill out. There is no reason to shout angrily at the world either to defend or attack PR. These things are of little consequent. If you want something to be angry about, at least you could find something more important. BUt even then, I doubt your likely to make much difference just telling people they are full of "shit" all the time.

Dan

Man, re-read the threads and get back to me. Neither are angry and neither are attacking the other. Plus, please if your going to quote me quote me entirely, not by splicing too comments together. It completely changes the context of the origonal comment. Actually he never once called me full of shit, nor did I tell him that.

Your quote of me:
.[Your shit] . . has jackshit to do . . .
Makes it look like a personal attack. Which, it never was. Now here is the actual comment:

This has jackshit to do with Sony and everything to do with the middleware provider.

BIG Difference. See the mythical "Your shit" implies a certain level of personalization that never existed. Now, had I said to him "Your a dipshit" well hey, you may have had a point. As it stands, my use of shit simply is a strongly emphasized "nothing". Saying "this has nothing" just didnt bring across the level of nothingness I wanted to portray :)

So please in the future, if your going to quote me, quote me! Dont make them up, as, yes... that pisses me off. :)

[Serapth]

They are cutting the same way an editor preens a major novel. You have to trim the dead branches for a tree to grow taller, clear the debris for a train to keep on plowing forward. Trimming the fat, sculpting the clay, mowing the lawn...any of those could be metaphors for the reformation that Sony is trying to undergo.

They aren't going anywhere, even if the PS3 bombs terribly. People don't know much about companies and business if they think otherwise.

Actually I know a fair bit about business, and a fair bit about Sony's current financial state. The PS3 could actually be the death blow to sony. Not specifically the PS3, but the PS3 + BluRay. Outside of finance, Sonys business units arent doing so hot. The worst case scenario that could play out is basically, they are using the PS3 as a driver to get the bluRay format adopted ( huge licensing money, plus their current movie deployment strategy is built around it ). So, if the PS3 fails hard ( aka, its to expensive and consumers balk ), then its a pretty nasty blow to BluRay adoption, especially with HDDVD being announced as cheaper. So, if PS3 fails, and in the end BluRay fails as a result, thats a 1 - 2 punch Sony may not be able to survive.

On the flipside, given the whole Zaibatsu concept, Sony wont be allowed to die ( look at Mistubishi right now.... ), but they may be forced to exit some market areas or to reform as a different company.

[Major Dan]

Here's something for the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray arguement.

http://lfw.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=ARTCL&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=168962&KEYWORD=holographic%20disk&p=12

If you want more information, do a google on Holographic disks. These things seem sweet, but they'd have to be adopted by the big players to get any recognition.

I might add, with this kind of technology in developement, how long will either HD-DVDs or Blu-Ray disks last?

I think the Holographic disks are the future. I cant wait to get a whole, yes WHOLE seasons on one Disk. That will be the time to start a collection. I don't buy many DVDs.

[Serapth]

I think the Holographic disks are the future. I cant wait to get a whole, yes WHOLE seasons on one Disk. That will be the time to start a collection. I don't buy many DVDs.

Personally I think the future is medialess. Either highspeed wireless or wired bandwidth, or some other system will come along that renders physical copies somewhat redundant. Ultimately in the future I see each home having some kind of content server device, and then all other devices are consumers of that device.

[Kelegacy]

Actually I know a fair bit about business, and a fair bit about Sony's current financial state. The PS3 could actually be the death blow to sony. Not specifically the PS3, but the PS3 + BluRay. Outside of finance, Sonys business units arent doing so hot. The worst case scenario that could play out is basically, they are using the PS3 as a driver to get the bluRay format adopted ( huge licensing money, plus their current movie deployment strategy is built around it ). So, if the PS3 fails hard ( aka, its to expensive and consumers balk ), then its a pretty nasty blow to BluRay adoption, especially with HDDVD being announced as cheaper. So, if PS3 fails, and in the end BluRay fails as a result, thats a 1 - 2 punch Sony may not be able to survive.

On the flipside, given the whole Zaibatsu concept, Sony wont be allowed to die ( look at Mistubishi right now.... ), but they may be forced to exit some market areas or to reform as a different company.

The PS3 will not be any more expensive than a 360...or not astronomically so. Look, Kuturagi knows that the PSX failed because of certain reasons, one of the primary ones being the price. They aren't dumb. There will be no 599 PS3, nor will there be a 499 one. Thus, it is highly affordable for what it can do. People that just want a BR player can buy one of these even if they never plan on using games. But still, it's an all-in-wonder with the previous Playstation compatability, DVD and BR movie playing, and the new PS3 games. Plus, if there is an online component, you can download movies, music, and games, and play online. This thing is more ambitious than any of the other Playstations, and that's why people are crying doom.

Have faith young grasshoppers. The Playstation will strike thrice.

[EternalGamer]

The reason I only quoted the few words is because I wanted to emphasize what I saw as unappealing about the exchange, and that was the tone. Both posts contain an abundance of charged words like "retarded' "bullshit" "lies" etc. These exchanges where both sides attempt to villify the opposite point of view as much as possible without any qualifiers on their own arguments are tiresome. It was not meant as a personal attact against either of you. I just get really get exhausted reading all of these posts filled with hyperbolic statements and unnecessary anger all the time. There is just no need for all of that, especially when you are talking about something as unimportant as videogames.

You'll always get more respect for your position if you underplay your arguments worth instead of trumpeting your side in an overly confident manner as the best argument ever.

Dan

[Serapth]

The PS3 will not be any more expensive than a 360...or not astronomically so. Look, Kuturagi knows that the PSX failed because of certain reasons, one of the primary ones being the price. They aren't dumb. There will be no 599 PS3, nor will there be a 499 one. Thus, it is highly affordable for what it can do. People that just want a BR player can buy one of these even if they never plan on using games. But still, it's an all-in-wonder with the previous Playstation compatability, DVD and BR movie playing, and the new PS3 games. Plus, if there is an online component, you can download movies, music, and games, and play online. This thing is more ambitious than any of the other Playstations, and that's why people are crying doom.

Have faith young grasshoppers. The Playstation will strike thrice.

Kelegacy, thats the kicker though. If the PS3 isnt more expensive then the Xbox360, and it does ship with all these wonderful features ( Hd, BR, Wireless, bluetooth, dual 1080p tuners ) then that means 1 thing. Sony is subsidizing the hell out of the machine and taking a major loss on each unit sold. Dont get me wrong, it could pay off big, especially if they force BluRay to succeed, gain online download revinues, etc... but, if thats the case, they are betting HUGE to do so.

Either that, or features are going to be cut like mad between now and then. Honestly, this is what I figure is going to happen. For example, I think there is a snowballs chance in hell the machine will actually have dual 1080p out's. Actually, if it ships with dual 1080p outs, there are a few bean counters and engineers at Sony that really should have been fired.

Put simply though, there is no way they can ship the machine they described, as described for the same price as an xbox 360, without losing a bunch of money on each unit.

[Major Dan]

Personally I think the future is medialess. Either highspeed wireless or wired bandwidth, or some other system will come along that renders physical copies somewhat redundant. Ultimately in the future I see each home having some kind of content server device, and then all other devices are consumers of that device.

You may be right, especially at work....But consumers like to have stuff in HAND and disks are definetly in hand. Nothing like showing off your 500 DVD collection but it wouldn't be the same saying, you see there on the screen, I have 1000 movies. Also, I think normal people, even I don't like it too much, will not like to have some one tracking every movie they watch. So I think some kind of disk will always be around, cube or other storage device. Besides, what do you do with your home movies?

[Serapth]

You may be right, especially at work....But consumers like to have stuff in HAND and disks are definetly in hand. Nothing like showing off your 500 DVD collection but it wouldn't be the same saying, you see there on the screen, I have 1000 movies. Also, I think normal people, even I don't like it too much, will not like to have some one tracking every movie they watch. So I think some kind of disk will always be around, cube or other storage device. Besides, what do you do with your home movies?

Well your right, people do like having phyical copies, but I think overtime people will be weened off it. Frankly, how many people keep their old vinyl around anymore ( except those wierd vinyl is better types... ) Im not saying this will happen overnight, but eventually we will get there. Getting around peoples obsession with tangable goods though, is going to be a hard sell. We are taking baby steps now ( look at Steam, vs retail game stores ). Eventually people will get used to it.

As to being tracked and watched, especially with the way the government is today, hey, Im with you there. Its a very scary thought. However, today with credit cards, bank cards, RFID, etc... hate to tell you, they can already do it. Even cash doesnt keep you that annonymous, its scary how accuratly they can trace the history of a bill. Scary times we live in.

[Citizen Philip]

Kelegacy, thats the kicker though. If the PS3 isnt more expensive then the Xbox360, and it does ship with all these wonderful features ( Hd, BR, Wireless, bluetooth, dual 1080p tuners ) then that means 1 thing. ....

You benefit?

[Serapth]

You benefit?
Bigtime. Yet Philip... how many companies can you think of that are willing to lose billions of dollars so you can benefit? :)

Hey, I would love for it to be so, but realism tells me to being very skeptical here.

"... and I wont be fooled again!"

[AspectVoid]

I'd like to make a few comments about the original news post. Just for each section, mind you.

Load Times - That depends on the developer more then the system. On the PSP, some games have load times that are no different then you find on an X-Box or PS2 (Legend of Heroes, which I'm currently playing, comes to mind). Other games have load times that remind me of Sin when it was released (Sims).

HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray - This really isn't a front that Sony is fighting Microsoft on. Its a front that they're fighting HD-DVD on. Its a way to saturate the market and make it more likely that people will buy Blu-Ray DVDs.

DVD vs Blu-Ray - This will come down to saturation and price. The PS3 will handle the saturation, so there's not too much worry there. The price is the problem, and if Blu-Ray is something like $10 more then a regular DVD, then people will stay with regular DVDs.

Games - The Dreamcast beat the PS2 to the market as well, and we all know how that turned out. Sony is more then capable of using a massive marketing campaign to get the mass market to hold out on the X360, especially as quantities of X360s are scares. The hardcore market is going to buy both consoles anyway, so the X360 having more games right now doesn't really matter.

[CapnBob]

Games - The Dreamcast beat the PS2 to the market as well, and we all know how that turned out. Sony is more then capable of using a massive marketing campaign to get the mass market to hold out on the X360, especially as quantities of X360s are scares. The hardcore market is going to buy both consoles anyway, so the X360 having more games right now doesn't really matter.

Considering that many stores STILL have a waiting list for 360s, it's premature to say whether or not Sony has any effect on the demand. We can definitely say that supply is stifling potential ownership of the system, but what you're suggesting is basically guessing at how much longer you think the waiting list would be if not for PS3 fans. Certainly what you propose holds true in Japan, but I think it's a non-issue in the states.

[Nessus]

Likewise a PS2 probably could have launched a nuke but why would you use it for that? 2-player Chaos Theory is much more fun or did somebody actually test that out?

Well, considering Cold War-era tech was able to launch nukes, and that the computer in the moon lander was less powerful than the average solar powered calculator today, it's not surprising.

What lies could Microsoft tell you about the XBox?

They said the Xbox wasn't a PC.

Seriously though, on the same note: why doesn't the 360 run Internet Explorer natively? I thought we'd gotten past that dogmatic insistance that the Xbox wasn't a PC. I mean half the games are PC ports, and with minimal modding you can turn it into.. a PC. They've got the developers on board already they don't need to keep up the pretense.

The 360's supposed to be ushering in a new era and all that shit, what better way than to show people that the new HDTV they just spent too much money on can also be used as an internet terminal?

And the 360 is partially billed as being a media center, why is it incapable of running some of the most common formats?

I mean, at this point I'm still leaning towards a 360 as apposed to a PS3, but MS is making stupid mistakes when they can't afford to be.

[rein]

Do not announce death until you have a corpse.

[Citizen Philip]

Bigtime. Yet Philip... how many companies can you think of that are willing to lose billions of dollars so you can benefit? :)

Hey, I would love for it to be so, but realism tells me to being very skeptical here.

"... and I wont be fooled again!"

My job is to consume not question. But if I were to guess, Microsoft would be at the top of my list of companies willing to burn money. Sony would be there too, but Microsoft would be first. Since goverments aren't companies I can't list them, because they would beat corporations.

[Reanimated]

Best. Article. Ever.

[bean19]

1. Sony isn't going to go under because of the PS3.
2. The Sony hype machine is not trustworthy.

I think it is very unlikely that the PS3 will bankrupt Sony. There are simply too many people eager to buy the system. . . and ebay sells show that there are early adopters that are willing to pay enormous amounts for new systems. They could ship at a price that would make their losses per unit comparable to Sony's. . . as long as they lowered those prices after the first three months.

Even if they don't do that, Sony has enough holdings to get a loan to cover it's losses (as they are expected losses) during the system's launch. They'll know how much they can lose, and they'll only sell as many systems as they can while absorbing losses.

This might give Microsoft an edge this holiday season. If the PS3 is not on shelves, but X360's are on shelves, or if the PS3 is a hundred or more dollars more expensive than the X360, many parents will likely pick up the X360. . . especially since there will be more games for the X360 and that will be abundantly clear when people are browsing store shelves.

Sometimes we forget that fanboys of either system (or of all systems - like myself) do not shop for the systems the same way that we do. A lot of sales went to the PS2 because it had more games and was more competitively priced than the Xbox. Those two advantages will go to the X360 this time around.

Hopefully this will mean that Microsoft can pick up some of the videogame marketshare. I don't want a clear winner in the console war. . . I want 2 really competitive consoles that really have to work to compete against one another for my dollar.

On Sony's hype being untrustworthy, Serapth's post gave a lot of really good examples of this from the previous generation as well as from the hype that surrounded last E3's PS3 announcements.

I'd really, really like it if Sony would just show the games. . . show us the gameplay footage. . . tell us what the system's online functionality will be exactly.

It is really difficult for me to get excited about a system that has a small games list with only two titles I find compelling, an online service that is now being rumored to be as fully featured as Xbox Live, but that the company said would be bare bones only months ago, and a bunch of pre-rendered trailers.

Don't get me wrong. . . I want a PS3 because I'm an enthusiast and I know that there will be fun times to be had on their system. I just am weary of all the vague hype and the lies.

Eternal - sorry I used the word "lies", but it really is appropriate. I can give examples, but they are mostly already in the thread. I'm weary of being lied to. . . how could I say that without the word "lies"?

Anyway, the PS3 is going to be wildly successful, and will probably make Sony a mint through through making Blu-Ray widely accepted as the HD movie format. . . so don't believe the idea that they could go under. . . but also don't believe anything you hear from Sony until they show it to you. . . maybe sonner than later (event coming up Feb. 16), but I think we'll get a real feel for what the PS3 will offer at this year's E3.

[bobbler]

A lot of you have no idea what you're talking about (the article included, in many places).

This safest thing to assume right now is the PS3 at launch will be more or less the same price to produce as the launch PS2s. It's a very safe assumption.

Sony is also better able to handle such cost eatings because of things like PSP and soon to be launched Connect for PSP (and likely PS3 when it launches). PSP is quite profitable already, and sales of it and PS2 will very much help offset PS3 losses (which wasn't a luxury Sony had when PS2 launched).

And Kamalot: that first response you might want to edit; you're spin isn't really necessary... the 16% of developers thought PS3 would have the highest sales in 06, not that it was their lead development platform... I suggest you read stuff more carefully when you're making silly claims to further whatever crazy agenda you may have. Any idiot can guess that DS will have the highest sales in 06... it's on a roll in Japan and likely won't really have supply issues (supply issues that PS3 will have). Let's not read into things more than is necessary.

Believe, yo. Have I ever lied to you guys?

[Serapth]

This safest thing to assume right now is the PS3 at launch will be more or less the same price to produce as the launch PS2s. It's a very safe assumption.


Hmmm... and why is it a safe assumption. Sony hasnt said jack on the subject, and look at the PSP pricing VS the gameboy. Or, look at the price the PSX launched at. Recent trends show a rise in Sonys pricing structure. Ontop of that, simple economics ( aka, add up the cost of all the wee bits inside ), dictate that the bloody thing is going to be expensive. Wether we consumers eat that cost, or sony bites it, is the only real question remaining.


Sony is also better able to handle such cost eatings because of things like PSP and soon to be launched Connect for PSP (and likely PS3 when it launches). PSP is quite profitable already, and sales of it and PS2 will very much help offset PS3 losses (which wasn't a luxury Sony had when PS2 launched).


First off, PS2 sales will all but disappear when the PS3 launches ( if not already ). What you will see once the Ps3 launches is sales of PS2s that are already in the channel, in other words already sold and accounted for by Sony. Secondly, can you give me a link to a site anywhere that actually shows the PSP as profitable. Not that I disagree, I just would find that a bit shocking to be honest.

Last, whats Connect?

[bobbler]

It's a safe assumption because its a safe assumption. This is from counting up all the wee bits inside. I suggest you don't take Merril Lynch's numbers to heart, either (on either side of them -- X360's aren't going to be right either). Sony will eat it, and love it. There are differences between PS2 and PS3 costs, but overall they are going to be more or less the same (comparatively, at their launches). I'd be surprised if SCE (Sony as a whole might) posted losses at all this year, they may though, who knows.



PS2 sales will continue fine... it's pure profit from those sales anyways. They won't just instantly die, but they will likely drop a bit (it's still selling around 100-150k a month in japan and more in NA/Europe). If they do a pricecut it will change things a bit.

For mention of PSP's profitability I'd look at Sony's recent financials -- last quarter was supposed to be an ~85m loss, it ended up being a ~500+ m profit (because of PSP and Bravias). Kutaragi mentioned (a while back) that around the 3million mark the PSP would become profitable -- Sony has shipped 15m of them... unless something completely disasterous has taken place (which would have negatively impacted their last quarter, not positively), it's also a very safe assumption. I don't want to dig around for links right now.


Connect is Sony's (crappy, for PC at least) music download service, and is behind iTunes (I believe it's in second place worldwide, not sure). In march Sony is offering Connect for PSP (download music, videos, demos/games, etc).

[Serapth]

Thanks for the info on Connect.

As to trusting Merril Lynch... HAHAHA your kidding right? Google "Merril Lynch Enron" and get back to me. Do you still trust them. Frankly, I dont trust most "advisors" with such a set agenda, for good reason.

Plus, look closer at Sonys financials. A good chunk of it is from their credit/banking division and 1 time right offs. Without exceptions, they would have lost money.

[Kamalot]

Load Times - That depends on the developer more then the system.

The article goes into the technical limitations of the Bluray disc read speed. Yes, developers can work wonders to improve loading time, just look at Nintendo's efforts on the GameCube. That still does not change the fact that data can be pulled off of the disc at a finite speed.

HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray - This really isn't a front that Sony is fighting Microsoft on. Its a front that they're fighting HD-DVD on.

Again, very true. But the article isn't looking at a PS3 vs 360 argument, but rather a biger-picture. Will it be adopted?

Sony is fighting a war on multiple fronts, and they are choosing to do it.

Anyone with half a brain will tell you that is NOT the way to win. Pick your target, focus your energy and do a better job at it than your opponent. Sony is electing to take on TiVo, Microsoft, Nintendo, the HD-DVD alliance, Apple and others with a single device. They are setting up the biggest target. The PS3 won't play movies better than a standalone HD-DVD or bluray player. It won't surf the web better than a PC. It won't have online service better than Live. It won't make a better DVR than Tivo. It won't have a better onine music store than iTunes. It is going to attempt many things and fail miserable at most of them.

Take a look at the iPod. There are MANY MP3 players out there with more features at a lower price and ones that do things better than the iPod could. Hell, my Rio Karma has gapless playback (crossfading) that the iPods STILL don't incorporate. Why then is the iPod so successful? It focuses on doing ONE thing and doing it exceptionally well. It is fast, easy and fun. It is well built and fun. The PS3 is NOT on this track for success.

[Citizen Philip]

I'm so glad all this speculation can be readily credited to a 30 year old database developer who likes football. I mean they know people who know people. wink wink

[Pumped'Up]

The PS3 is NOT on this track for success.
You are wise. Similarily, Microsoft will obviously be the first to see it's demise with the 360. Why? 360 is living proof to your theory.

[RandomViolence]

You are wise. Similarily, Microsoft will obviously be the first to see it's demise with the 360. Why? 360 is living proof to your theory.

Actually, you're completely wrong. All the media features on an X360 are designed either
A.) to enhance the game playing experience (as in the MP3 streaming for playing during gameplay)
B.) are easily implemented as a result of existing features (as in downloading movie trailers, which are a bonus of the infrastructure of downloadable content)

I think the PS3 is a better example of something trying to be a complete convergence device than the X360. I really hope it does all it's meant to do, and does it well. Better products are always a good thing for us, mister consumer.

Quick point, though, does anyone think offering Connect as a music service on the PS3 is really fucking stupid? Why the hell would I pay money to Sony to have an MP3 on my console when I already have a copy on my damn computer. Hopefully they'll implement something like Microsoft did so you could just stream them to the PS3, but somehow I don't see Sony and it's batshit crazy DRM division allowing that.

[baz]

This load time argument is starting to annoy me. If the sony ships with a drive capable of less than 100 Mbit/sec I would be amazingly surprised. People have just latched on to the fact that a 1xblu-ray drive is 36 mbit/sec and are making some far fetched assumptions about the drive speeds from there. (according to wikipedia, BD-ROM is capable of 54 mbit/sec at 1x, but I don't really know what the difference is)

I think people are underestimating the hold that sony have over non-hardcore gamers wallets. There are a load of people happy with the PS2, who are happily waiting till the PS3 comes out to upgrade. I work with some people like this, they don't read gaming forums, they don't care about rootkits, Sony's hype etc... but they outnumber us something chronic.

[bean19]

From Wikipedia:

Blu-ray drives currently in production can transfer approximately 36 Mbit/s (54 Mbit/s for BD-ROM), but 2x speed prototypes with a 108 Mbit/s transfer rate are in development. Rates of 8x or more are planned for the future.

That's a choice of 4.5 Mb/sec or 6.75 Mb/sec.

To load up 512 MB of RAM to memory will take ~76 second to ~114 seconds.

Compare this to the DVDx12 that has a data transfer rate of about 13 Mb/sec (according to the author of this post who is giving way too much weight to the lower part of the scale - transfer rates are only as low as 8 Mb/sec when the drive is coming up to speed, so a more appropirate figure would be ~16 MB/sec - subtracting .5 MB/sec speed for the 8 MB/sec for the first second on searches when the drive starts spinning from cold, but whatever).

To load up 512 MB of data on a DVDx12 would take ~39 seconds (if you use the really faulty 13 MB/sec rating) or more likely ~32 seconds.

Still, the thing is. . . this really isn't an issue. Blu-Ray drives can play DVDs. The Panasonic Blu-Ray drive is only able to play DVDx8, but it makes sense that Sony would make it's DVD player as fast as the competitions and use DVDx12.

Developers aren't going to want games printed on Blu-Ray because:

1. The load times are much longer and there just isn't any getting around that; and
2. Even the larger next gen games can normally be fit on a single DVD with very few exceptions. For those few exceptions, it is possible that they'd simply use an install DVD to put some of the game's main data assets on the PS3's hard-drive (assuming it comes with one) and then use a second DVD for the game. . . or, more likely, just have separate DVDs that the main game plays from. Players will not changing DVDs once every ten hours of gameplay, but they would definitely mind spending an extra 30- 60 seconds on every load screen.

It really is a non-issue because Blu-Ray is meant for HD movies. . . not for gaming. That will probably be the next next-gen when BRx8 drives are cheap (and existing).

[bean19]

I think people are underestimating the hold that sony have over non-hardcore gamers wallets. There are a load of people happy with the PS2, who are happily waiting till the PS3 comes out to upgrade. I work with some people like this, they don't read gaming forums, they don't care about rootkits, Sony's hype etc... but they outnumber us something chronic.

You don't know the "parent" buyer very well. They won't know any of these tech stats or what they mean.

Parents will buy the system that their kids want and the kids will want the system that has the coolest games. Parents will also want the system that is least expensive and the most available. In this console war, X360 will have more games and more availability for the first year.

The PS3 has a huge, loyal fan base and that will help them without doubt. I expect that they'll remain the industry leaders and do incredibly well, but I'm glad that it looks like Microsoft will be gaining some market share because that means more competition. Competition is really good for consumers as it helps lower prices.

[AspectVoid]

Again, very true. But the article isn't looking at a PS3 vs 360 argument, but rather a biger-picture. Will it be adopted?

Sony is fighting a war on multiple fronts, and they are choosing to do it.


I could have responded to the whole thing, but I'm just gonna go with some general stuff. First, whether Blu-Ray is adopted will depend on the cost of Blu-Ray movies. When Sony released the PS2, one of their big pushes was getting "Works on Playstation 2" stickers onto DVDs, using the system that people already had to expand the DVD market. I can easily see them doing the same thing for Blu-Ray. What will hold people back, though, is if Blu-Ray movies cost a lot more then a regular DVD does. I can easily see people willing to pay and extra $5 for an HD version of a movie they want, but I can't see people paying much more then that.

As for the iPod, that thing got its growth because owning one became a fad, just like god knows how many other things in the past few decades. Apple did a great job of marketing it, and it became as much a cultural icon as Nike shoes or Levi jeans. It really does come down to marketing.

[mister_slim]

Hmmm... and why is it a safe assumption. Sony hasnt said jack on the subject, and look at the PSP pricing VS the gameboy. Or, look at the price the PSX launched at. Recent trends show a rise in Sonys pricing structure. Ontop of that, simple economics ( aka, add up the cost of all the wee bits inside ), dictate that the bloody thing is going to be expensive. Wether we consumers eat that cost, or sony bites it, is the only real question remaining.
Eh, what? Are you conceding that the PS3 will be massively more powerful than the 360? Because a price comparison between the GBA and the PSP is pretty meaningless otherwise.

First off, PS2 sales will all but disappear when the PS3 launches ( if not already ). What you will see once the Ps3 launches is sales of PS2s that are already in the channel, in other words already sold and accounted for by Sony.
What? Sony kept selling significant quantities of PS1's up until 2005.
The article goes into the technical limitations of the Bluray disc read speed. Yes, developers can work wonders to improve loading time, just look at Nintendo's efforts on the GameCube. That still does not change the fact that data can be pulled off of the disc at a finite speed.
You know, I don't think most people have realized that one advantage of Blu-Ray is that it can hold more data toward the outside of the disk, where disk read remains near peak, than a DVD can hold in it's entirety.

[Serapth]

Eh, what? Are you conceding that the PS3 will be massively more powerful than the 360? Because a price comparison between the GBA and the PSP is pretty meaningless otherwise.

No, im saying by Sonys last two game machines, they no longer care to price themselves comprable to their competition. Considering the PSP was atleast 50% more then the competition, and the PSX was in Jaguar price ranges, im saying dont be too shocked if the PS3 is expensive.

Hey, cost has jack to do with power. IMHO the dreamcast was about equal to the PS2, and cost half as much. Whereas the XBox was twice as powerful as the PS2 and cost the same. $ != performance.

[mister_slim]

No, im saying by Sonys last two game machines, they no longer care to price themselves comprable to their competition. Considering the PSP was atleast 50% more then the competition, and the PSX was in Jaguar price ranges, im saying dont be too shocked if the PS3 is expensive.
You actually expect me to take you seriously after that post?

[bean19]

You know, I don't think most people have realized that one advantage of Blu-Ray is that it can hold more data toward the outside of the disk, where disk read remains near peak, than a DVD can hold in it's entirety.

Funny you didn't mention that the peak for this is still less than half as fast as a DVDx12 data transfer rate.

But don't worry about this man. The PS3 will not play Blu-Ray games. It will play DVDs and it will probably have a DVD transfer rate that is equivalent or at least near the speed of the X360's. This article mentioned that they are developing PS3 games with DVDx10 transfer rates in mind.

Game developers won't give up streaming capability or force long load screens and/or small zones just to use a huge storage device that they most likely wouldn't even use. In fact, streaming data is more important to the PS3 as it has half the RAM of the 360. Without streaming, the areas in their games would have to be half the size of those in the X360 (or half the detail).

That's the thing about the whole Blu-Ray argument. . . it's sort of a non-issue since both systems will be using DVDs for games.

Sony should be clear that the advantage of the Blu-Ray drive is that it can play HD movies. It is a pretty good selling point for people interested in that. . . especially since their competitor is so expensive.

[mister_slim]

Funny you didn't mention that the peak for this is still less than half as fast as a DVDx12 data transfer rate.
Funny how you don't mention your preconceptions but feel free to tell my what mine are.

And what the fuck is that about half the RAM? I guess I can stop taking you seriously as well.

[Serapth]

You actually expect me to take you seriously after that post?

Actually yes. All im saying is dont assume anything when it comes to price. Then I showed you pricing trends from recent releases. Extrapolate what you will from that. What it shows me is, dont assume anything when it comes to price.

[bobbler]

No, im saying by Sonys last two game machines, they no longer care to price themselves comprable to their competition. Considering the PSP was atleast 50% more then the competition, and the PSX was in Jaguar price ranges, im saying dont be too shocked if the PS3 is expensive.


Odd considering that PSX wasn't really a mainstream device... it wasn't meant for mainstream and it wasn't necessarily a console as much as it was a CE device (DVR, burner, etc) that happened to have a PS2 inside. It wasn't meant to compete with the PS2 or replace it. It was also sold at a massive profit, as it was meant to.

PSP was far less the price predictions (just like the PS1 and PS2, and likely PS3), so I'm not really sure what you bringing that up really has to do with things. As if MS brought out a comparable-to-psp device, it wouldn't be the same price. Nintendo has always been cheaper and gaming-only. MS and Sony have gone Gaming + other stuff. The PS1 was 299, the PS2 was 299, and the PSP was 249. I not really sure how this means that PS3 will be 500 dollars or whatever you're trying to say. If anything, looking at the past, it wouldn't be out of the question to see a 299 PS3 (although, economy being how it is and MS making it okay for a 399 tag, it isn't likely -- 349-399 is the safe assumptions).

Don't be too shocked if the PS3 isn't expensive, either.

[bobbler]

Funny you didn't mention that the peak for this is still less than half as fast as a DVDx12 data transfer rate.

But don't worry about this man. The PS3 will not play Blu-Ray games. It will play DVDs and it will probably have a DVD transfer rate that is equivalent or at least near the speed of the X360's. This article mentioned that they are developing PS3 games with DVDx10 transfer rates in mind.

Game developers won't give up streaming capability or force long load screens and/or small zones just to use a huge storage device that they most likely wouldn't even use. In fact, streaming data is more important to the PS3 as it has half the RAM of the 360. Without streaming, the areas in their games would have to be half the size of those in the X360 (or half the detail).

That's the thing about the whole Blu-Ray argument. . . it's sort of a non-issue since both systems will be using DVDs for games.

Sony should be clear that the advantage of the Blu-Ray drive is that it can play HD movies. It is a pretty good selling point for people interested in that. . . especially since their competitor is so expensive.

That's a lot of assumptions there... A lot of them. (and a few blatantly wrong things)

[Serapth]

Odd considering that PSX wasn't really a mainstream device... it wasn't meant for mainstream and it wasn't necessarily a console as much as it was a CE device (DVR, burner, etc) that happened to have a PS2 inside. It wasn't meant to compete with the PS2 or replace it. It was also sold at a massive profit, as it was meant to.

PSP was far less the price predictions (just like the PS1 and PS2, and likely PS3), so I'm not really sure what you bringing that up really has to do with things. As if MS brought out a comparable-to-psp device, it wouldn't be the same price. Nintendo has always been cheaper and gaming-only. MS and Sony have gone Gaming + other stuff. The PS1 was 299, the PS2 was 299, and the PSP was 249. I not really sure how this means that PS3 will be 500 dollars or whatever you're trying to say. If anything, looking at the past, it wouldn't be out of the question to see a 299 PS3 (although, economy being how it is and MS making it okay for a 399 tag, it isn't likely -- 349-399 is the safe assumptions).

Don't be too shocked if the PS3 isn't expensive, either.

Nothing to do with the devices themselves. I am simply talking about prices vs competitors. Im saying Sony is willing to forgo price matching against their competitors and showing why. So many people seem to think that the PS3 is going to be <400 because the Xbox 360 was. Im just showing that sony is showing a willingness to ignore their competitors price structure ( aka, DS vs PSP ).

This is all in response to an earlier comment that all but assumed the PS would be the same or less then the 360. Im just saying its stupid to assume anything. Im not saying it will or wont be more expensive, im saying your a dolt for making assumptions either way.

EDIT: This is what I have been responding too:

This safest thing to assume right now is the PS3 at launch will be more or less the same price to produce as the launch PS2s. It's a very safe assumption.

Im just giving reasons why making any assumptions at this point is an asinine prospect at the least.

[Zeal]

That saidAhhh... I agree. Its the job of PR people to push the truth as far as they can. ... first, I dont really recall being lied too that much about Halo 2. The only thing I seem to recall being told what it would be like that it wasnt, was the on earth aspects were much briefer then I though. Second, again, this is a difference between aiming high and missing your target ... or... just being full of shit. 1) Missing target... Microsoft. 2) Full of shit, Sony. See the difference?

HALO 2 had the most elaborate fale-marketing campaign I've ever experienced in the history of the industry.

The game that was marketed and the game that was sold are NOT the same game. I stand by my word that the original Halo 2 project was never released.

The H2 we have today was finished in the last six months of development. If you watch the making of DVD, Bungie practically just admits it.

"We really, really fucked up, ok."

[Serapth]

HALO 2 had the most elaborate fale-marketing campaign I've ever experienced in the history of the industry.

The game that was marketed and the game that was sold are NOT the same game. I stand by my word that the original Halo 2 project was never released.

The H2 we have today was finished in the last six months of development. If you watch the making of DVD, Bungie practically just admits it.

"We really, really fucked up, ok."

I wasnt that hyped on Halo, so I didnt pay too much attention. What exactly did they promise they didnt deliver? I eventaully bought the game and the only major flaw I noticed is it seemed a bit rushed at parts.?

[bobbler]

The problem is, those comparisons you made don't show the things that you think they do.

The PSP and DS aren't really competing in the same market, at least not in the same price bracket. Similar to how PS2 and GC aren't priced the same. MS and Sony are similar in their goals and are much more direct competitors than Sony and Nintendo are.

And the simple fact that you mentioned PSX to prove anything about pricing is actually laughable (at the very least it is a testiment to the fact that you don't seem to know much about the way the industry works). The PSX is compteing in a $1k or so DVR/Burner market (oddly has more features than a lot of the things its competing with, simply because it has the most supported game console in it).

And to the last statement of yours: you haven't really given any reasons to doubt my assumptions (which I stand by). You've made some silly ones yourself, and then proclaimed that somehow mine were silly too because of it? -- that's some backwards logic if I've ever seen it. I don't, however, make silly assumptions based on little knowledge of the subject.

[bobbler]

I wasnt that hyped on Halo, so I didnt pay too much attention. What exactly did they promise they didnt deliver? I eventaully bought the game and the only major flaw I noticed is it seemed a bit rushed at parts.?

Pay little attention to Zeal (especially when he talks about the Halo series).

[Zeal]

Pay little attention to Zeal (especially when he talks about the Halo series).

Besides the fact that I'm the resident Halo scholar, ok. Wait, nevermind, I am THE Halo scholar.

Here's a nice little list to start off with.


---List of Cut Halo 2 Material---

Notes: List is updated regularly, & "Video available" means there is recorded footage floating around the net somewhere.

01. Three to four-hit melee combo strings in campaign and multiplayer.

02. The four-wheel ATV, or "Mongoose". Initially weapon-mounted. Render made.

03. The human assault hovercraft, or "Kestrel" flying vehicle Banshee equivilent in campaign and multiplayer.

04. Damage to vehicles effecting how they drive/function (boosting, barrel-rolling wingless Banshee, anyone?)

05. The RELIABLE, and effective versions of the Needlers. Video available of prototype versions.

06. The single SMG that could kill w/o aid of nades/melee. Videos available of prototype versions.

07. ODSTs having more advanced AI/behavior/tactics than Marines. Watch the demo.

08. Giant, plasma-throwing Covenant artillery installations. Watch the demo.

09. Human bomber jets (Longswords) being seen actively in campaign. Watch the demo. Very cool.

10. The "Juggernaught" flood-giant form. Bigger than a Hunter. Very cool. Video available.

11. The "Drinol" giant ogre-like Covenant alien. Render made. Kind of like Star Wars "Rancor".

12. The Covenant sniper alien. Very cool. Render made. Concept art in LE dvd.

13. The "Blind wolf" Brute-mounted walking creature. Render available. Concept art in LE dvd.

14. The Covenant "Engineer". Render available. This guy was even meant for Halo 1.

15. Grunts without their masks actively seen in campaign. Render available.

16. The Flamethrower for campaign and multiplayer. Render made. See LE dvd.

17. Jungle and Arctic variants of the Warthog. Renders made.

18. Plasma swords that actually looked like burning plasma & not plastic. Watch the demo.

19. Black Elites that emerged from fallen drop-pods on Earth level. A sad loss. Watch the demo.

20. The great, last battle, meant to be all across earth and in space. See original teaser-trailer.

21. Covenant AI that knew formations, like Jackals in defensive lining. See demo.

22. The original models for the Battle Rifle and SMG. See renders on b.net.

23. The original effective and cool-looking version of the Plasma Pistol. See demo.

24. Balance between the UNSC weapons and Covenant weapons. (Carbine vs. BR anyone?)

25. Balance between the Elite model and Spartan Model. (Elite = Giant walking target)

26. The effective version of the Plasma Rifle, even single-wielded. Video available as prototype version.

27. Fuel Rod Gun being in multiplayer as an effective Rocket equivilent.

28. The reliable version of the Warthog that doesn't explode to one or two frag nades.

29. Vehicle's that didn't burst into flames just because the pilot was killed. Video available.

30. Lighter auto-aim on the BR so a monkey or an infant couldn't easily get 4-burst kills

31. Original score, composed by Marty O'Donnell

32. The battle for Earth

33. A story

34. The game

[bean19]

And what the fuck is that about half the RAM? I guess I can stop taking you seriously as well.

You are correct. Sorry. I read this (http://www.futuregamez.net/hardware/ps3hard/system/system.html) wrong.

Btw, I want the PS3 to rock. I love all game systems. . . my only turn off is PS3 hype.

The stuff about the load times and streaming important still remains true, but I was totally wrong about the RAM. One stick of their RAM is actually even faster than one stick of RAM in the X360. Hopefully that will assist with streaming (although my understanding is that the DVD transfer rate is the bottleneck for streaming. . . not system RAM).

What is the purpose of the faster stick of RAM in the PS3?

[Serapth]

And the simple fact that you mentioned PSX to prove anything about pricing is actually laughable (at the very least it is a testiment to the fact that you don't seem to know much about the way the industry works). The PSX is compteing in a $1k or so DVR/Burner market (oddly has more features than a lot of the things its competing with, simply because it has the most supported game console in it).

No, this is exactly my point. Sony is positioning the PS3 as EXACTLY this market. As to the last PSM magazine report, the PS3 would be a DVR. My money says Sony has lost their focus and are frankly trying to do too much. Hey, I dont want them to fall, but frankly, ive heard nothing but stupidity from Sony for the last year or so.

[Uberdrake]

One point the article fails to mention regarding blu-ray transfer rates is the minimum transfer rate required to play BD movies. Blu-ray's hi-def movies require 54 Mb/s (6.75MB/s), so there would be little point in Sony releasing merely a 1x blu-ray drive (4.5MB/s), since it couldn't even play BD-ROM movies.

The good news here is that PS3's blu-ray drive will likely be a 2x (9MB/s). It's still plenty short of XBox 360's 15 MB/s, but it's not terrible. The bad news is, how much more will a 2x blu-ray drive cost? One thing is for certain, PS3 developers will have to be shrewd enough to curtail long load times. Even at 9MB/s, it takes just shy of a minute to fill all 512MB of Sony's "beefy" new console.

[mister_slim]

Nothing to do with the devices themselves. I am simply talking about prices vs competitors. Im saying Sony is willing to forgo price matching against their competitors and showing why. So many people seem to think that the PS3 is going to be <400 because the Xbox 360 was. Im just showing that sony is showing a willingness to ignore their competitors price structure ( aka, DS vs PSP ).
Panasonic Q: $500. The PSX price seems pretty reasonable.
Gizmondo: $400. Tapwave Zodiac: $400. GP2X: $180. $200 for the PSP seems pretty reasonable there.

The stuff about the load times and streaming important still remains true, but I was totally wrong about the RAM.
I still don't see you citing of a source saying the Blu-Ray drive in the PS3 would be 1x.