Red Cross Condemns Misuse of Emblem in Videogames

[score]

From Gamesindustry.Biz (http://www.gamesindustry.biz):

The British Red Cross has told GamesIndustry.biz that it hopes to work with developers to prevent the "illegal and detrimental" misuse of the red cross emblem in videogames.

"It is important for videogame manufacturers not to use the emblem in their games, including for matters related to its humanitarian purpose, such as first aid or general medical care," said Michael Meyer, head of international law for the British Red Cross.
Read More (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=14552)

No more Red Crosses on first aid kits? This could hit FPS's hard...

[captainstrombosis]

This strikes me as odd, But if they don't want it used I guess that isn't too much to ask, especially for people that have done a lot for others such as The Red Cross has.

As I have come to understand, that red cross has not been a protective emblem in quite some time. As most armed conflicts these days are guerrilla wars and medics with this symbol would most likely be quite a target.

I do admit a type of Red Cross video game intrigues me.

[Goronmon]

Its a red cross. Aside from the fact that games have been using it forever, its a fucking red cross!

Its like saying no one can use green X's because its a misuse of the Xbox logo.

[CrashCart]

Its a red cross. Aside from the fact that games have been using it forever, its a fucking red cross!

Its like saying no one can use green X's because its a misuse of the Xbox logo.
Agreed. It's a fairly basic shape, not intended to be representative of the organization.

[captainstrombosis]

I can understand your view point. But surely you can agree that for an organisation dedicated to helping people, we can just stop using red cross's in videogames... It is not like it is the end of the world for the FPS gamer.

[ackbrack]

Its a red cross. Aside from the fact that games have been using it forever, its a fucking red cross!

Its like saying no one can use green X's because its a misuse of the Xbox logo.

While a red cross seems to be the univesal symbol for medical help, it doesn't have to be the default symbol. I think this is similar to people calling all cotton swabs Q-Tips, when Q-Tip is just the brand name for the most popular cotton swab. The Red Cross is just asking people to, in effect, break that habit and use "cotton swab" instead.

[captainstrombosis]

Agreed. It's a fairly basic shape, not intended to be representative of the organization.

It is a basic shape because it was intended to be easily recognizable as a non combatant party in warfare. It is the entire reason why most people nowadays atleast know what the red cross is. It is easily identifiable as a humanitarian organisation.

[Reanimated]

Damn... what happens when the Wooden Crate Association gets pissed? That would totally fuck over the gaming industry.

[Roc Ingersol]

Illegal?

so what is it? perfidious use?
usurpation by a private entity?

I'd imagine hollywood is next on their list? :rolleyes:

[[Jez]]

Its a red cross. Aside from the fact that games have been using it forever, its a fucking red cross!

Its like saying no one can use green X's because its a misuse of the Xbox logo.
yeah its a well know part of the British Red Cross, you can use a green X untill the "Microsoft green X inc" say your not allowed :rolleyes:

[CrashCart]

It is a basic shape because it was intended to be easily recognizable as a non combatant party in warfare. It is the entire reason why most people nowadays atleast know what the red cross is. It is easily identifiable as a humanitarian organisation.
I'm sure that's why they picked the basic shape and color and everything, but really.. No one else can use it anywhere, because it's detrimental to their organization? I'm absolutely certain that I have a first aid kit which has a red cross on it that was not prepared for or endorsed by the Red Cross organization.

If anything, isn't it a sign that awareness of their humanitarian efforts is so widespread that just seeing a red cross makes people think of first aid/medical care?

Edit: Besides, what's the big deal that gamers worldwide see a little white box with a red plus on it and think know that they can live a little longer in their game? Oh noes, you're hurting our charitable organization by stealing our logo.

[Mortis]

Just make it a dark orange cross. When I see that in a video game I think medkit/health restoration not Red Cross organization.

[TheKeck]

Wait, wait, wait, I thought there were little digital versions of red cross workers running around ahead of me in every FPS I've ever played. How else do you explain the medkits lying around everywhere?? :rolleyes:

[EternalGamer]

I am uncertainly but I believe our assoication with a red cross and medical attention is directly related to it being used by the organization. People don't just intuit seeing a red cross and thinking "health," any more than they would see a pair of yellow arches and naturally think "hamburger."

That being said, the logo is old enough by this time and has become such a part of popular culture that I think it is patent should not be enforced. It's nearly as silly as the patent infringement "Happy Birthday" song.

Dan

[Rafer]

Would using the Rod of Asclepius instead be too confusing?

[EternalGamer]

That would certainly be fair game, and not a copyright infringement. Thank god the Greeks had not invented such a ridiculious system. I'm sure Disney's thankful too since well over half of their "copyrighted" material is pilfered from Greek mythology.

Dan

[Goronmon]

But its a red cross! How can it be illegal to use a red cross? You can't just start copyrighting basic shapes.

[Rakael]

I'm just going to pretend this is a big joke or I will seriously loose my mind and go on a killing spree using a grapefruit spoon.

It would seem to me that the RED FUCKING CROSS HAS BETTER THINGS TO WORRY ABOUT! But hey, what do I know?

[CrashCart]

But its a red cross! How can it be illegal to use a red cross? You can't just start copyrighting basic shapes.
Of course you can. Didn't anyone tell you that I'm the copyright holder of the yellow triangle and red octagon? :rolleyes:

[Mortis]

Of course you can. Didn't anyone tell you that I'm the copyright holder of the yellow triangle and red octagon? :rolleyes:

It's all about the purple horseshoes.

[XxSATANxX]

Dear Red Cross:

Your claim that the "red cross" used in video games some how is illegal is in error. You cannot claim the red cross as a trademark for the simple reason that you cannot prove first use. The red cross has been used in the last several hundred years to indicate a medical facility near a battlefield. A red cross depicted on a real life med kit does not infringe so how does a virtual one?

Listen dumb fucks. Go back to fucking over donors who think they are giving money for a good cause and leave the game world be. I would think you might have something better to do then defend your imaginary trademark.

Call the folks over at Microsoft and ask them about the Lindows case.......

[EternalGamer]

And the McDonalds sign is just two yellow arches. Microsoft's Xbox logo is just a green X. When it breaks copyright is when it is used in a specific context that is obviously referring to that organization. You have no reason to look at a red cross and think "health" the only reason you do so is because it is an organization's symbol you are recognizing.

Dan

[captainstrombosis]

They are not all out issueing a challenge saying "IT IS OURS BACK OFF!!" They said they would like to open talks with game developers to stop the misuse and unendorced use of THEIR symbol. This is not saying they are demanding it to stop being used outright. But they would like it to more symbolize their humanitarian nature in games. Not simply a "poof im full hp, lets go stab some more grannies". They have an image and the Red Cross is recognized as a humanitarian symbol BECAUSE of them.

How you could condemn them for not wanting their signature trademark to be pilfured and used in games such as GTA3 and so on is beyond me.

Btw, anyone who says "Shouldn't the red cross have something better to do" Should think about what amazing things they are spending their time on....

[EternalGamer]

If XxSatanxX is right and it really does predate the organization then they don't really have a case. But I"m not sure he is right. Does anybody has some reliable info as to when the symbol's use came into popular use or that it predates the organization? According to wikipedia, the Red Cross has been around since 1859 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Committee_of_the_Red_Cross) and were the very organization responsible for those uses of red crosses on the battlefield. I'm not sure where you guys think that symbol assocation came from, but I don't think it's been in use that long.

Dan

[Citizen Philip]

As a pirate I would like to point out, we have prior art claims to using the red cross. The red cross, frequently in blood, was used to mark the spot on treasure maps. Pirates also claims parrots on shoulders, "Argh", "Arr", "Evast", etc. and the Jolly Rogers is right out.

And as for games...

A red cross in a game means life. I don't see how the symbol is being "demonized" by games.

[captainstrombosis]

Pirates claim Red X's, not Red Cross's There is a diffrence :)

[Goronmon]

And the McDonalds sign is just two yellow arches. Microsoft's Xbox logo is just a green X. When it breaks copyright is when it is used in a specific context that is obviously referring to that organization. You have no reason to look at a red cross and think "health" the only reason you do so is because it is an organization's symbol you are recognizing.
Two yellow arches aren't a basic shape. And the XBox symbol isn't just a green X.

You can't just take a basic shape and claim that any reference to it in a field of your choosing is now illegal.

[Citizen Philip]

Pirates claim Red X's, not Red Cross's There is a diffrence :)

A cross and an X are 45 degress. Pirate maps had no prefered angle of viewing: it was only the captains whom ever got to see the X or cross in the proper position.

[captainstrombosis]

Says you. However they state diffrently. Im pretty certain they have legal experts with more experience then you :)

[EternalGamer]

From the wiki article:


The symbols described below have two distinctively different meanings. On one hand, the visual symbols of the Red Cross, the Red Crescent, the Red Lion with Sun and the Red Crystal serve as protection markings in armed conflicts, a denotation which is derived from and defined in the Geneva Conventions. This is called the protective use of the symbols. On the other hand, these symbols are used as distinctive logos by those organizations which are part of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement. This is the indicative use of the emblems. As a protection symbol, they are used in armed conflicts to mark persons and objects (buildings, vehicles, etc.) which are working in compliance with the rules of the Geneva Conventions. In this function, they can also be used by organizations and objects which are not part of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement, for example the medical services of the armed forces, civilian hospitals, and civil defense units. As protection symbols, these emblems should be used without any additional specification (textual or otherwise) and in a prominent manner which makes them as visible and observable as possible, for example by using large white flags bearing the symbol. When used as an organizational logo, these symbols only indicate that persons, vehicles, buildings, etc. which bear the symbols belong to a specific organization which is part of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement (like the ICRC, the International Federation or the national Red Cross and Red Crescent societies). In this case, they should be used with an additional specification (for example "American Red Cross") and not be displayed as prominently as when used as protection symbols. The Red Shield of David of the Israel society Magen David Adom can only be used for indicative purposes as it is not a recognized protection symbol according to the Geneva Conventions.

So it seems they have a public "fair use" agreement when it comes to real world recognition of protection and/or other medical uses. However, it is interesting when this "fair use" is put into a virtual world, where the necessity of a univeral symbol and it's uses are not as easily justified. The article also has a section that describes the evolution of the symbol (inverted Swiss flag in recognition of the founder). So it seems that XxSatanxX is wrong. It was first used in this context by them, not anyone else. They [i]were[i] the first to us the symbol to have this meaning.

Also note how their red cross is a very specific shape made of four equal sized squares (which is specifically mentioned as their logo in the article). Crosses are not generally four equally sized squares all with perfect right angles (the pirate cross and the Christian cross for exaple neither would fit this description). So that seems even further evidence for their claim that a red cross with this specific pattern gives them the right to request an audience with people who are using it in their software.

Dan

[captainstrombosis]

"X marks the spot" so there :) They are diffrent. Not to mention privateer's can't claim legal ownership over ANYTHING they have at all. Theres also the point of having to read the map as North is up south is down. Meaning they do have a refrence on if it is an X or a Cross.

On a side note, I can't belive im even bothering posting this. Mondays are so boring.

[EternalGamer]

The pirate "X" is not made up of four perfect squares at a right angle. Actually that X is crooked and generally has thicker lines at the top and bottom of each arm (not squares at all).

Dan

[Cubfan]

So you're telling me the games I've been playing all these years haven't been sponsored by the Red Cross? Who'd a thought?

[XxSATANxX]

XxSatanxX is wrong. It was first used in this context by them, not anyone else.

St George, The Crusades, Point is the red cross been around awhile.

Hey fuck them change it to a Maltese Cross cooler anyway!!!

[TrackZero]

I think it's quite late in the "game" (no pun intended) for them to be making a statement like this. Video games have been using that symbol for 20+ years now.

[EternalGamer]

St George, The Crusades, Point is the red cross been around awhile.

Hey fuck them change it to a Maltese Cross cooler anyway!!!


St. George's flag is not four equalized sized squares, nor is the crusades, both of which are based on the Christian cross.

Dan

[Goronmon]

I guess I just find this whole thing illogical. If game makers used a cross where one of the lines was slightly longer than the other it would be alright to use? Or if its a lighter or darker shade of red?

Either way this is still a stupid thing to be worried about.

[mkelehan]

I prefer a little red heart anyway.

[chazio]

this isn't breaking news or anything...games are already out there that had to change from using red crosses to something else. the Red Cross clamped down on this issue 6 months ago....you're already seeing the effects in the new games you're playing now.

[Goronmon]

How about we all just call it a red plus sign? Will that solve the problem? I mean, you can't copyright addition.

[Citizen Philip]

"X marks the spot" so there :) They are diffrent. Not to mention privateer's can't claim legal ownership over ANYTHING they have at all. Theres also the point of having to read the map as North is up south is down. Meaning they do have a refrence on if it is an X or a Cross.

On a side note, I can't belive im even bothering posting this. Mondays are so boring.

Keep it up, and you're going to get Keelhauled.

-I have spoiled my cover, I used proper grammar. A pirate I am not. :(

[sickfallout]

I copyrighted boxes that contain ammunition for weapons, after MY lawsuit, i'm going to be filthy stinking rich.

[nonchalance]

Damn... what happens when the Wooden Crate Association gets pissed? That would totally fuck over the gaming industry.
Damn you, you stole my joke.

Honestly, it's a bit of stupidity, this whole thing - but something the industry can probably work around without too many issues.

The people who are claiming plus signs and slightly longer bits and all of that are missing the point - the RC are not threatening lawsuits. Obviously they wouldn't win. They're just asking.

In relatively polite language, at that.

[Abash Alarmist]

I say they just change it to the original swiss flag (Red Square with White "Cross"), given the fact that is what the Red Cross is based on. Since they have been historically neutral, it would work well to symbolize health, and those damn St. Bernards in the Alp's mountain passes to give me liquer to heal me while battling a giant robot...Until the Swiss Guard is hired to kill all developers in the name of copyright infringement...Wait..Bad idea.

[Verocity]

Ok, the Red Cross says it's their mark. A developer could say that it's a "red plus sign" to indicate that if you pick this up, it "adds" to your health.

Case closed.

[Sl1pstream]

Make it a green cross. Problem solved.

[Goronmon]

I guess my problem with it is that they say the use of the red cross is illegal.

[captainstrombosis]

You are missing the point. It would show a severe lack of class to simply side step a Humanitarian group such as the british Red Cross out of some hurt pride? It is called showing some respect to those people that have earned it.

Honestly I can not belive you people are so touchy about this. The red hearts work just fine :P

[rickmus]

We've been not using red crosses for 7+ years now because of requestes from Red Cross to not use them on health items. Old news really...

[XxSATANxX]

You are missing the point. It would show a severe lack of class to simply side step a Humanitarian group such as the british Red Cross out of some hurt pride? It is called showing some respect to those people that have earned it.

Honestly I can not belive you people are so touchy about this. The red hearts work just fine :P


They show an amazing amount of effort acting like a fucking money grabbing
corp slut rather than lets say fucking helping people??? I agree red hearts g
Green cross or a dollar sign. Seems thats what this is about anyway.

+

This is a plus sign meant to indicate my positive attitude :D

[EternalGamer]

You are talking about the "greed" of a non-for-profit organization. That sounds pretty retarded. And did you even read the actual article? Here let me quote it for you:

"We would be willing to work with a videogame manufacturer to produce a game which shows the emblem in its correct use, as a symbol of protection during armed conflict, and where the player is rewarded for using the emblem correctly. Such a game could reward the player for respecting the rules of war and thereby, help the Red Cross Movement with its work to promote such respect," Meyer continued.

"The help of videogame manufacturers in protecting the integrity of the emblem, and upholding its special meaning, would be much appreciated."


They didn't even seem like they wanted financial reembursement. That was not even mentioned. What they wanted was it to be used in a way that is not detrimental to the original symbol, and they made the request in a very polite, not in a threatening way.

Dan

[captainstrombosis]

I have to agree with EternalGamer, you show a real lack of any kind of class at all.

[Goronmon]

You are missing the point. It would show a severe lack of class to simply side step a Humanitarian group such as the british Red Cross out of some hurt pride? It is called showing some respect to those people that have earned it.

Honestly I can not belive you people are so touchy about this. The red hearts work just fine :P
I fail to see what using a red cross to label a health pack has to do with class or respect.

Unless, of course, you are making an argument about political correctness, in which case you are no longer allowed to reply to my posts. :p

[Goronmon]

They didn't even seem like they wanted financial reembursement. That was not even mentioned. What they wanted was it to be used in a way that is not detrimental to the original symbol, and they made the request in a very polite, not in a threatening way.
Just because the request was polite, doesn't mean I'm not allowed to disagree with the logic behind it.

[XxSATANxX]

In the US the red cross is shit. They grab cash play on peoples sympathy and do little to actually help. It was so bad here that the International Red Cross threatened to revoke the American charter. What ever amount of money is being paid to lawyers to give them this advice would be better spent helping people. In that sense they are
acting out like for profit corp. Frankly this energy should be put towards better use!

[Sl1pstream]

It's the Red Cross, they help people for free. They're asking the gaming industry to be a little more carefull when using THEIR symbol. They're asking in a friendly way. Why is anyone making a problem out of this?

If it's just a symbol, why not use another symbol, like a heart, or a green cross or any other symbol, number, drawing or letter out there.

[EternalGamer]

I fail to see what using a red cross to label a health pack has to do with class or respect.

Unless, of course, you are making an argument about political correctness, in which case you are no longer allowed to reply to my posts. :p

I am saddened by the fact that I live in a culture where to show consideration for others is to be labeled with pejorative "politically correct." Being inconsiderate and self centered is certainly a right everybody has, but it's not something to proudly flaunt.

Just as companies might legally be able to get away with plastering the Red Cross's symbol all over games where you get to beat civillians to death with baseball bats, but it's still a pretty inconsiderate thing to do regardless. The organization is politely asking that you not use their symbol, which is a humanitarian symbol, if you want to build a game that encourages non-humanitarian gameplay. What exactly is people's problem with this?

Dan

[EternalGamer]

In the US the red cross is shit. They grab cash play on peoples sympathy and do little to actually help. It was so bad here that the International Red Cross threatened to revoke the American charter. What ever amount of money is being paid to lawyers to give them this advice would be better spent helping people. In that sense they are
acting out like for profit corp. Frankly this energy should be put towards better use!

They did not hire a lawyer. It is the company lawyer for international concerns. There is no lawsuit. They are not suing anybody nor are they dedicating any type of massive resources toward a lawsuit They are putting out a polite request. And this isn't even the American Red Cross anyway, it's the British Red Cross.

Dan

[Goronmon]

I am saddened by the fact that I live in a culture where to show consideration for others is to be labeled with pejorative "politically correct." Being inconsiderate and self centered is certainly a right everybody has, but it's not something to proudly flaunt.
Seriously, stick to the topic, trying to lay down a guilt trip to somehow attempt to back up your opinion is just lame.

I only mentioned PCness when captainstrombosis implied that not doing what the Red Cross asked somehow shows lack of class, which it certainly does not.

[EternalGamer]

No, to use a pejorative to describe someone simply because they would like others to show consideration, that is lame. That's my point. Someone should not have to feel "guilty" or "bad" because they wish more people would show consideration of others.

Dan

[Goronmon]

No, to use a pejorative to describe someone simply because they would like others to show consideration, that is lame. That's my point. Someone should not have to feel "guilty" or "bad" because they wish more people would show consideration of others.
1) I wasn't using PC to describe anyone. I used it to describe the notion that disagreeing with the Red Cross showed a lack of class.

2) Disagreeing with the Red Cross doesn't mean someone is inconsiderate.

3) Judging someone as lacking class for disagreeing with the Red Cross is definately lame.

4) Twisting someone's words for lack of a decent position to argue from is also lame.

[Rifter]

I say we use a deep orange cross, and call it good. :-) As for everyone pointing out the Red Cross is a humanitarian organization, they are really a political organization.

[inmostlight]

In the US the red cross is shit. They grab cash play on peoples sympathy and do little to actually help. It was so bad here that the International Red Cross threatened to revoke the American charter. What ever amount of money is being paid to lawyers to give them this advice would be better spent helping people. In that sense they are
acting out like for profit corp. Frankly this energy should be put towards better use!

Do you even know anything about them, or have facts to back this up?
I have friends who've lost houses to fires, floods, and tornados. I know people displaced by Katrina, and who were at Ground Zero. In every single instance, the first people providing aid, and those providing the most comprehensive support were the American Red Cross. I have a friend in the EMS field who do tours of duty with the Red Cross after major disasters (Katrina, Rita, Andrew, etc). She gives up months of her life on the ground providing medical assistance, building shelter, and digging corpses out of rubble. They certainly provide far more support than any other organization or government agency, and it's pretty asinine to claim otherwise.

Want to try a little experiment? Cancel all your insurance and burn your house down. Wanna guess who's gonna provide you blankets, new clothes, and a place to stay?

[Schnoogs]

What about WWII simulators? Does this apply to movies as well?

Do they even have a legal basis for this?

[j00s]

Really, this is absurd. Sure, they may have a real claim on a "red cross", but it just seems as if they're wasting valuable resources on something trivial. Resources that could be spent helping people.

Still, who really cares if games are no longer allowed to use a red cross on their medkits? It's not going to make the game any less fun.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

Do they even have a legal basis for this?

Yeah, the Geneva Conventions (http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/5KZE8S?OpenDocument) -- mainly Article 44 of the 1949 Conventions, which forbids the use of the Red Cross emblem for anything "except to indicate or to protect the medical units and establishments, the personnel and material protected by the present Convention and other Conventions dealing with similar matters." Pretty much everyone has ratified the 1949 Conventions so there's not a whole lot of legal wriggle room here.

[nonchalance]

What about WWII simulators? Does this apply to movies as well?
"We would be willing to work with a videogame manufacturer to produce a game which shows the emblem in its correct use, as a symbol of protection during armed conflict, and where the player is rewarded for using the emblem correctly. Such a game could reward the player for respecting the rules of war and thereby, help the Red Cross Movement with its work to promote such respect," Meyer continued.

Obviously, the use of the cross in a WWII game which is a historical representation is not the problem.
The problem is healthkits in your average FPS or action adventure.

[Eric_T_Cheng]

If it's just a symbol, why not use another symbol, like a heart, or a green cross or any other symbol, number, drawing or letter out there.

Yes, like the heart tattoo on the left breast (http://www.justadventure.com/reviews/Trespasser/trespasser_02.jpg) in Trespasser...

[Neosho]

Allow me to say, those breasts in trespasser make NO SENSE. They are impossible. There is no way that they could physically fit there, in that shirt.

On topic - this is the first time i've ever associated the red cross in a game with the Red Cross. Sure they're the same, but...it's not the association. Besides, i shoot the people with the red cross as well...ever played enemy territory? medics are a fucking bitch.

Also, when someone grades my hw and points out an arithmatical error with a red + i don't exactly think of health or the Red Cross there either...

[nonchalance]

Besides, i shoot the people with the red cross as well...ever played enemy territory? medics are a fucking bitch.

"The use of the emblem in videogames is both illegal and detrimental to the special protective value of the emblem."

This is the point they're trying to make, man.
That's not how you should see the Red Cross.

[Ronberk]

You want to see an example of the Evil Red Cross at work? Go install a fresh vanilla copy of Neverwinter Nights and take a look at the first aid kits with their lovely red crosses.

Now install one of the latest patches. Gone. All gone. The Red Cross Strikes Back!

[Neosho]

"The use of the emblem in videogames is both illegal and detrimental to the special protective value of the emblem."

This is the point they're trying to make, man.
That's not how you should see the Red Cross.

I think that the bigger issue here is that i would be SHOOTING PEOPLE.

Not that they have a red cross on them. I mean, if you're out shooting people, it's hardly likely that the biggest worry is that you've been playing videogames and you're going to continue shooting when you see that red cross. In my mind, the entire thing is rather silly. Also, after the red cross fiasco over here, i have much less respect for the organization over here. I'm aware that they're excellent first responders and such, but sometimes things that they spend money on seems rather...unnessecary.

Also, in a modern day battlefield, the red cross holds little or no value at all when it comes to not being shot. Guerrila warfare is notoriously...low. Isn't it against the geneva convention as well?

[Mason]

I typically would fall on the anti-copyright side of this sort of issue, but this just isn't a case like golden arches or sneaker swooshes. Protecting those who help the wounded and non-combatant during wartime isn't a laughing matter. I think it is perfectly reasonable for the symbol to uniquely and universally mean "shoot and you're a war criminal."

Hopefully this doesn't become a legal question, so much as a voluntary respectful act. You and I will hopefully never have our lives depend on the recognition and honoring of these rules of war, but you can't say that for everyone.

[Mason]

Also, in a modern day battlefield, the red cross holds little or no value at all when it comes to not being shot. Guerrila warfare is notoriously...low. Isn't it against the geneva convention as well?

If someone else is going to commit war crimes, that's on their head, and no reason for us to minimize the value of the convention beforehand. If we don't take the Geneva convention seriously, we can't point to it when someone else fails to, either.

[Neosho]

I guess i'm sort of too young / not politically involved enough to really understand the significance of the geneva convention. In my mind, in modern warfare, it's a kick you in the nuts, take no prisoners sort of war, the more calamity you cause the better...and i fail to see the use of the geneva convention when armies are no longer driven by a country that can be held responsible but by independent dictators/warlords or religious fundementalists.

[nonchalance]

i fail to see the use of the geneva convention when armies are no longer driven by a country that can be held responsible but by independent dictators/warlords or religious fundementalists.

And by what international laws do we determine who's a dictator/warlord and who's a legitimate President For Life or God-King?

The opinion of the good ol' US of A and their willing buddies (like my lot)?
Not quite.

See, we need something everybody agrees on, like basic human rights. Like not torturing people. Like not shooting the guys who are just there to provide medical aid.
That's the difference between the good guys and the bad guys, see. The good guys do the good things.

edit: this came out somewhat aggressively nasty. Sorry. It wasn't intended to be.

[Neosho]

I agree here, 100%. unfortunatly, we come off as team america world police so our high horse is rather fucking shot. UN?

[nonchalance]

UN, and people like the Red Cross and Medecins Sans Frontieres.

The point is that they want games to educate people as to the value of that sort of thing. If, for example, in Enemy Territory, Billy was penalised for shooting noncombatant medics, Billy wonders wtf that was all about, and he whinges on the forums, and is pointed to the FAQ, which educates him on the Geneva Convention.

What that does to game balance is a seperate question.

[Neosho]

That'd be interesting. But then again, medics piss me off because they're constantly rezing enemy troops, which is a pain in the butt.

Game balance > real world issues.

That's how it's always been, and personally, i hope that that's how it stays.

When it comes to the original issue, i hope that producers act according to how they feel about the subject, which i'm sure they will.

[nonchalance]

That'd be interesting. But then again, medics piss me off because they're constantly rezing enemy troops, which is a pain in the butt.

Game balance > real world issues.

That's how it's always been, and personally, i hope that that's how it stays.

When it comes to the original issue, i hope that producers act according to how they feel about the subject, which i'm sure they will.

Agreed. Enemy Territory's treatment of medics doesn't really lend itself to the proper Red Cross stuff - when the Red Cross grab someone on a battlefield, they don't get straight up and start shooting again.

The point they're making is not "don't shoot medics" but "if you're going to include combatant medics who are supposed to be involved in the actual combat, please don't make them wear our logo."

The reason I used Enemy Territory as an example is not because I think they should change the gameplay, but because you used it as an example of when you are supposed to shoot Red Cross guys.

I would like to see a game in which they were treated properly, though. Maybe America's Army should pick that up.

[Wasson_]

Yeah...this is stupid. WTF is is the Red Crosses problem? Why is everyone such a whiny bitch these days?

[EternalGamer]

I agree. We should all be fighting against the ideologies of whiny bitches. Those who harbor resentment against the enlightened world of non-whiny bitches take notice. As Americans, we have spoken. And as Americans, we will not stand for it.

Dan

[captainstrombosis]

This is so pathetic. I won't even try and argue the point anymore. I like to think most developers will have respect enough to simply use it in the intended way or not at all.

[Busted_Astromech]

I was going to point out, but nonchalance just got to it, that a bigger issue than health packs is likely the portrayal of the 'medic' classes in online FPS's. Because in all these games a medic has the Red Cross logo but is allowed to shoot; whereas in real life there is supposed to be a ban on shooting at medics, who only carry weaponry for self-defense.

This is what the Red Cross is concerned about: the culture losing the concept that battlefield medics deserve a fundamental degree of protection. And like many have noted, they're not starting a lawsuit, they're asking to help change the portrayals.

I see no problem with this, and while I can't see a way to resolve the problem of medics-shooting-first in FPS's for balance, the least that can be done is to take off that specific logo.

[Novacaine]

It gets worse. I just read that Japan is demanding that red circles be removed from all video games! Apparently the use of red circles to indicate such things as buttons, bullet wounds and other graphical representations is not a proper use of the red circle on the Japanese flag. Angry mobs (http://www.occidentalism.org/pic/eatingflag.jpg) gathered outside the Museum of Gaming Iconography in Seattle to protest the misuse of red circles in various games. Phil McCraken, president of the Society of Patterns and Shapes said that there would be several seminars dealing with the sensitive use of Trademarked material at this years Game Developers Conference. Mr. McCraken went on to state that groups were already forming to protest the use of horizontal red and white stripes in various video games. We really need to educate the developers of these games stated McCraken.

[Pantsmonkey]

Any dev who is even remotly concerned about this will just add a thin blue
cross inside the red cross. And we are done.

I think you will find this is more of a "Hey we can get some free pub out of
this" Lets make a bit of a fuss and watch donations increase for a week or so.

And to all who are ripping shreds of the Red Cross they do some pretty amazing
work across the world and get shot at more than you might think. There is however
a very clear difference between a Wartime Medic emblazoned complete with arm band
and a RED CROSS aid worker.

Anyone remember the WWF? and why it became the WWE? If you have some clout behind
you just because your reason for taking somehting away from some is stupid doesnt
make it any less of a reason to do so.

Health item models in the future will probably just be little hearts or something...
Ooops someones pinched that idead :)

http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/products/front/pa_life.jpg

[nonchalance]

There is however a very clear difference between a Wartime Medic emblazoned complete with arm band and a RED CROSS aid worker.

And yet we have any number of games which encourage cutting down wartime medics complete with arm band.

Which is, more than likely, what they're actually complaining about. The health kits are just a symptom.

[Sl1pstream]

It gets worse. I just read that Japan is demanding that red circles be removed from all video games! Apparently the use of red circles to indicate such things as buttons, bullet wounds and other graphical representations is not a proper use of the red circle on the Japanese flag. Angry mobs (http://www.occidentalism.org/pic/eatingflag.jpg) gathered outside the Museum of Gaming Iconography in Seattle to protest the misuse of red circles in various games. Phil McCraken, president of the Society of Patterns and Shapes said that there would be several seminars dealing with the sensitive use of Trademarked material at this years Game Developers Conference. Mr. McCraken went on to state that groups were already forming to protest the use of horizontal red and white stripes in various video games. We really need to educate the developers of these games stated McCraken.


That isn't even the same thing. The Japanese flag is white with a red dot in the middle. Not just a red dot.

I don't even see the point in arguing about this, as some games have already removed the red cross anyway.

[Derwin]

the red cross' logo has been so deeply embedded into our culture that the symbol is now used as the regular noun or connotation for health. like the Q-tips mentioned earlier. regardless of their actual brands, people call tissues Kleenexes, parents call video games Nintendoes, CD players Walkmen, people refer to all sodas as Cokes, adhesive became Scotch Tape, Xerox for copies, bandages are known as Band-Aids, all error-correcting fluids are called White-Out, and all MP3 players iPods. (the last one to my deepest annoyance)

[Eon]

You cannot buy a First Aid kit in Europe with a Red Cross anymore. They all come with Green Crosses. There are several, easy, solutions to the whole Red Cross issue that do not involve fucking your gameplay (as the Red Cross suggests).

[captainstrombosis]

the red cross' logo has been so deeply embedded into our culture that the symbol is now used as the regular noun or connotation for health. like the Q-tips mentioned earlier. regardless of their actual brands, people call tissues Kleenexes, parents call video games Nintendoes, CD players Walkmen, people refer to all sodas as Cokes, adhesive became Scotch Tape, Xerox for copies, bandages are known as Band-Aids, all error-correcting fluids are called White-Out, and all MP3 players iPods. (the last one to my deepest annoyance)

I don't refer to any of those as those unless the name says so...
Maybe im the odd one out. But last time I checked people were rather religious when it came to pepsi or coke :)

I might be guilty of the band-aid one, but I buy only band-aid brand anyway so probubly not.

[Goronmon]

This is so pathetic. I won't even try and argue the point anymore. I like to think most developers will have respect enough to simply use it in the intended way or not at all.
Give up and call everyone you disagree with pathetic, thats the ticket!

[markster3000]

US website GameLaw.org published a letter from David Pratt of the Canadian Red Cross complaining about the "unauthorised and indeed illegal use of the Red Cross emblem by the [gaming] industry."
David Pratt?? He's my former member of parliament! And former Canadian minister of Defence.

Why must he hate the video games?

[captainstrombosis]

Goron, I never stated anyone was pathetic. I said "This is pathetic". Having a discussion on whether or not to accurately portray a humanitarian symbol or not use it at all IS pathetic. The reasonable and intelligent answer is to change it to fit.

None of your arguements have been any more complex then "omgz its a shape!" Everything is a shape some more complex then others. It is a basic shape because it had to be understood by a great deal of diffrent people who spoke many diffrent languages. Much like "911" has to be simple so people in need can remember the number. Fact is, the law will be on their side should this even have to get there. I have faith in game dev's to be far more mature and do the right thing and simply change it to something else.