Kutaragi Discusses Cell Chip

[fitbabits]

Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com) has the juicy details (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=8065).

Real-time computing will bring a paradigm shift for both the PC and semiconductor industries, according to Ken Kutaragi, plenary speaker at the International Solid State Circuits Conference in San Francisco on Monday (Feb. 6).

"In the pursuit of reality through pixel-based technology, graphics on computer entertainment systems have reached the same level of quality as that of the latest movies," said Kutaragi, president and CEO, Sony Computer Entertainment (Tokyo). Kutaragi touted the Cell processor, which is being used in the PlayStation 3, as the means for generating high-quality natural motion for moving objects, just as "pixilation" was used to improve computer graphics.

Natural motion requires vast amounts of physics simulation. Without it, overall graphics would differ little from existing PC entertainment systems. The multicore Cell processor—developed by Sony, IBM and Toshiba—has achieved single precision floating-point calculation performance equivalent to a 200-plus-Gflop supercomputer.
Smoke and mirrors...

[PantherModern]

Hahahhahhaahahhahahhahaha.

Gigaflops.

[emperordahc]

Blahblahblah and the PS2 was supposedly the killer system and nobody should buy the Dreamcast that was already out because it wasn't that great and the PS2 was only fairly better blahblahblahblah.

Make a system that's easily programmable and devs will be happy.

[absolut taco]

Ken, STFU already and show us something real...

[Sl1pstream]

Or at least talk about gameplay.

[Taco]

If there was one person in this world I would love to bitch slap....

[saran_js]

Or at least talk about gameplay.

ISSCC is all about techspeak and jargons. Nothing to do with gameplay.
That's coming sometime at the end of February 2006.
:p

[Wedge]

Oooooh, teh Motion Engine!!!11

[fitbabits]

Or at least talk about gameplay.
And break with tradition? Are you crazy? That's best left to people who at least are well-versed in the subject matter. And besides, gflops is just another word for gameplay. :rolleyes:

[Sl1pstream]

But what if the system fails to deliver? Will they still be talking about a gigaflop?

/lame

[Borys]

In the pursuit of reality through pixel-based technology, graphics on computer entertainment systems have reached the same level of quality as that of the latest movies.

Haha, gotta love old Ken.

[fitbabits]

But what if the system fails to deliver? Will they still be talking about a gigaflop?

/lame
Only in relative terms. Of course, it will be the fault of the developers for not realizing the power of the PS3 if the first batch of games are underwhelming.

[Venkman]

We're still waiting for Toy Story graphics from the PS2.

Although I must admit, I am holding off on the 360 until I can see what the PS3 is actually going to offer.

[Taco]

Maybe it will be proven that human beings are simply not evolved enough to detect the greatness that is the PS3.

[bapenguin]

Wow. There's a ton of buzz words in that article.

[saran_js]

The PS3 is gonna rock your socks off. I just know it.
:p

[rjcc]

does anybody even know what half that shit means? the only word I recognized in the article was locationfree.

[fitbabits]

Wow. There's a ton of buzz words in that article.
Yep, and you can probably understand them all given your alcohol and cold medicine-induced state. :)

How are you feeling this morning?

[fitbabits]

does anybody even know what half that shit means? the only word I recognized in the article was locationfree.
Translated, it means smoke and mirrors.

[ackbrack]

So, he's just saying the Cell can process a bunch of calculations really quickly, right? He's just being a dingleberry because he's making it sound like the PS3 will implement "natural motion" within every application it runs, regardless of how a developer programmed it, right? Smoke and mirrors, indeed.

[Roc Ingersol]

If the PS2 was supercomputer-enough to build nuclear weapons, the PS3 should be able to facilitate warp drive design.

Anything less than that wouldn't really be 'next gen'.

[saran_js]

If the PS2 was supercomputer-enough to build nuclear weapons, the PS3 should be able to facilitate warp drive design.

Anything less than that wouldn't really be 'next gen'.

Hey, if people can build explosives and bombs using fertilizers and excreatement, then I don't see why they cannot make a weapon such as a missile or nuke using a PS2.
:D

You underestimate the power of ingenuity of people.

[Evil_SPanKY]

has achieved single precision floating-point calculation performance equivalent to a 200-plus-Gflop supercomputer.

LOL, here we go again....

[Sl1pstream]

Hey, if people can build explosives and bombs using fertilizers and excreatement, then I don't see why they cannot make a weapon such as a missile or nuke using a PS2.

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/stories/s119754.htm

Just in case you missed that one a few years ago.

[fitbabits]

Hey, if people can build explosives and bombs using fertilizers and excreatement, then I don't see why they cannot make a weapon such as a missile or nuke using a PS2.
:D

You underestimate the power of ingenuity of people.
Logic does not compute... Logic does not compute...

Ever thought of volunteering for the first Cell implant? You'd get to be cleverer than most (apart from Kutaragi, of course) and be the poster child for the Next Generation of computational numpties. :rolleyes:

[fitbabits]

LOL, here we go again....
This is fun! Sort of like viral marketing, but with no end result.

[Vandenh]

When is he going to wrestle that bear?

[51|RandoM]

Evidently Ken is the boy who cried wolf around here.

[bapenguin]

Yep, and you can probably understand them all given your alcohol and cold medicine-induced state. :)

How are you feeling this morning?

Running on 3 hours of sleep because I can't stop coughing. Otherwise I feel surprisingly well. :)

[Reanimated]

*yawn*


This guy is like the Good Year Blimp.

[fitbabits]

Running on 3 hours of sleep because I can't stop coughing. Otherwise I feel surprisingly well. :)
Good to hear you're feeling better. If it's any consolation, I'm also running on about three hours of sleep. Winnie is in heat and was making some horrendous noises last night. When she wasn't doing that, she'd jump up on the bed and rest her heat-ridden ass right on my face. :eek:

[saran_js]

Logic does not compute... Logic does not compute...

Ever thought of volunteering for the first Cell implant? You'd get to be cleverer than most (apart from Kutaragi, of course) and be the poster child for the Next Generation of computational numpties. :rolleyes:

Does this mean like I'll have 8 brains instead of just 1 ??? :eek:

[Nessus]

Ugh.

I think that about covers it.

[Roc Ingersol]

You underestimate the power of ingenuity of people.
And I consistently overestimate their sense of humor.

[fitbabits]

Does this mean like I'll have 8 brains instead of just 1 ??? :eek:
You'd have to ask Ken about that one. :)

[MaiXu]

... and the Emotion Engine will have Toy Story level graphics!!1!1!one!1

Heard it all before, Mr. K.

[saran_js]

You'd have to ask Ken about that one. :)

Well, looking from experience, seeing that I do currently have two heads (read brains), one big one and another smaller one which can also perform some logic functions as well as other capabilities and features, I think that this should be true.
Man, just imagine the possibilities of having 10 brains to do whatever.
:D ;)

[IagoTheHunted]

Haha, gotta love old Ken.

Yeah that bit about new systems being the same as current generation movies???? RIIIIIIIGHT.... As far as I'm concerned that discredits everything else he said. I don't even know what he was telling himself in order to make such a rediculous claim. Obviously he doesn't know anything about either to make that comparasin, but can he not even tell the difference visually?

Games: On the best hardware need to render in 1/30th of a second, so low poly count, limited shaders, VERY small textures (still), and at best one or two post-render layer FX.

Movies: On the best hardware need to render... by the time the movie is released. So hopefully less than one week per frame, but not neccesarily (keeping in mind they have hundreds/thousands of computers in a render farm all working symultaniously). Unlimited texture space, unlimited poly count, advanced physics, hundreds of post-render layers...

it's just a totally different beast, games can't match it even close, and for good reason.

[absolut taco]

she'd jump up on the bed and rest her heat-ridden ass right on my face. :eek:
Too. Much. Information.

[DirtyChimp]

IagoTheHunted, F.E.A.R looks just as good, if not better than Final Fantasy: Advent Children.

/sarcasm

[DeviantBoi]

Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com) has the juicy details (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=8065).


Smoke and mirrors...

Smoke and mirrors?

Isn't that the description of EA's misleading headlines?

[fitbabits]

Smoke and mirrors?

Isn't that the description of EA's misleading headlines?
How long did it take you to come up with that little nugget?

[Morratut]

/yawn.

Sorry did someone say something?

[Grifter]

Come on The PS3 will easily be able to render at the quality of a modern film.......
at one frame per week.

[bean19]

Show us the games Ken. I'll worship the games. . . not the hype.

[Goronmon]

How long did it take you to come up with that little nugget?
A little over two hours apparently... ;)

[DeviantBoi]

A little over two hours apparently... ;)

And how long did it take you to realize that I didn't read the post at the precise moment after it was posted?

It took me all of five seconds to come up with that "nugget".

The sad thing is that you're not arguing against EA's headlines being "smoke and mirrors" ... you're arguing about the time elapsed between the posting of the article, me reading the article, and posting the "nugget".

[bean19]

The sad thing is that you're not arguing against EA's headlines being "smoke and mirrors" ... you're arguing about the time elapsed between the posting of the article, me reading the article, and posting the "nugget".

"Kutaragi Discusses Cell Chip" seems really descriptive and non-biased to me.

Can you see how that might make someone question your credibility?

[Taco]

DeviantBoi, champion of important non-issues and congregator of trolls and other various vermin.

[DeviantBoi]

"Kutaragi Discusses Cell Chip" seems really descriptive and non-biased to me.

Can you see how that might make someone question your credibility?

I wrote "EA's headlines" ... plural ... I was speaking in general ... not specifically about the headline of this particular article.

:)

[Mason]

How long did it take you to come up with that little nugget?
Maybe you have a viral infection or something, but a smart chap like that has the right to marketing his ideas wherever he pleases.

[Cyrano]

Wow, pixel-based technology? Graphics with PIXELS? I can't wait!

[Mason]

It's really scary that Kutaragi is still blowing smoke about stupid, unimplementable concepts like having remote devices hook into your home entertainment system. It's the exact same as the PS2 Netscape browser thing: it ties together a lot of buzzwords and vague concepts that are popular at the time, but does so in a way that makes little technical sense and doesn't meet any particular consumer needs.

I mean, if you have mobile devices with access to the bandwidth and low-latency required to watch and play games remotely, what does Cell or the PS3 have to do with that? Actually getting that bandwidth and latency with uniform coverage is the monumental task, writing a server to host games for it is child's play in comparison.

[Taco]

You just don't understand phenomenon.

[Dirty Harry]

All i know is that the ps3 has already one!!1111!!.

[Schnoogs]

Surprised that everyone is jumping so hard on this...the performance capabilities of the cell processor arent directly tied to the gameplay. The Cell can truly be the fastest ever but if the development tools are lacking or difficult to use than the games suffer.

He seems to be speaking about the hardware's performance in an ideal situation. I think the Cell processor sounds fascinating...whether that leads to great games is another thing and based on additional factors.

[Dirty Harry]

Surprised that everyone is jumping so hard on this...the performance capabilities of the cell processor arent directly tied to the gameplay. The Cell can truly be the fastest ever but if the development tools are lacking or difficult to use than the games suffer.

He seems to be speaking about the hardware's performance in an ideal situation. I think the Cell processor sounds fascinating...whether that leads to great games is another thing and based on additional factors.
Well with the new opengl api's programing for the cell should roughly be a snapp. Xbox360 has the advantage of having pc games shoveled onto the console and vice versa, because the api's that microsoft are directly tied to their directx operating system for windows.

[bapenguin]

Well with the new opengl api's programing for the cell should roughly be a snapp. Xbox360 has the advantage of having pc games shoveled onto the console and vice versa, because the api's that microsoft are directly tied to their directx operating system for windows.

That's only the graphics end of it though. Which, I would think should be handled by the GPU. What about the physics side? The AI side? Sound side? (is there sound chip in the PS3)

[Dirty Harry]

That's only the graphics end of it though. Which, I would think should be handled by the GPU. What about the physics side? The AI side? Sound side? (is there sound chip in the PS3)
But bap man, the biggest problem with the ps2 was getting the games to run on sonys api. While the ps3 is using a customized sony opengl api, so in turn anyone who has made a game for the pc can make a game for the ps3.

[TrackZero]

Ken, just....fucking save it until E3 will ya? Seriously.

[Mason]

But bap man, the biggest problem with the ps2 was getting the games to run on sonys api. While the ps3 is using a customized sony opengl api, so in turn anyone who has made a game for the pc can make a game for the ps3.
The fact that a given API is implemented means almost nothing. It doesn't matter which API gets used, so long as it is a robust and well-documented implementation. If you keep running into things that only half-work, or undocumented omissions or additions, it's going to be a problem.

The trick of this is figuring out where the performance is. All 3 consoles are PPC-based, and their in-order execution will make them far more finicky than OOO PC CPUs. In-order CPUs add another layer of arcane knowledge, as the CPU executes exactly what you send it, instead of figuring out an optimal order to maximize CPU resources. The compiler is supposed to carry some of that burden, but if the compiler doesn't do a stellar job of optimization you're back to tweaking things by hand. And if you don't have documentation and support on how to best handle that, you're going to have a lot of programmers going quietly insane.

The PS2 was a horror to develop for because it was a finicky in-order machine with crappy documentation and support, as well as a tiny cache that amplified these problems. Its implementation of any particular API was irrelevant.

[Dirty Harry]

The fact that a given API is implemented means almost nothing. It doesn't matter which API gets used, so long as it is a robust and well-documented implementation. If you keep running into things that only half-work, or undocumented omissions or additions, it's going to be a problem.

The trick of this is figuring out where the performance is. All 3 consoles are PPC-based, and their in-order execution will make them far more finicky than OOO PC CPUs. In-order CPUs add another layer of arcane knowledge, as the CPU executes exactly what you send it, instead of figuring out an optimal order to maximize CPU resources. The compiler is supposed to carry some of that burden, but if the compiler doesn't do a stellar job of optimization you're back to tweaking things by hand. And if you don't have documentation and support on how to best handle that, you're going to have a lot of programmers going quietly insane.

The PS2 was a horror to develop for because it was a finicky in-order machine with crappy documentation and support, as well as a tiny cache that amplified these problems. Its implementation of any particular API was irrelevant.
What ever i couldnt really give two shits :S.

[Nite_Moogle]

Did I miss the part in this article where the chip cures cancer and makes toast or did Sony decide to drop that feature?

[Morratut]

Surprised that everyone is jumping so hard on this...

I'm not! It's nice to know i'm not the only one who is sick of sucking up the hype from SonyKen :Master of Bullshit!

Instead of 'Shooorryuuuken!' coming from the lips of Ryu it should be 'SOONNYKEN!'.

:D

[Schnoogs]

The fact that a given API is implemented means almost nothing. It doesn't matter which API gets used, so long as it is a robust and well-documented implementation. If you keep running into things that only half-work, or undocumented omissions or additions, it's going to be a problem.

The trick of this is figuring out where the performance is. All 3 consoles are PPC-based, and their in-order execution will make them far more finicky than OOO PC CPUs. In-order CPUs add another layer of arcane knowledge, as the CPU executes exactly what you send it, instead of figuring out an optimal order to maximize CPU resources. The compiler is supposed to carry some of that burden, but if the compiler doesn't do a stellar job of optimization you're back to tweaking things by hand. And if you don't have documentation and support on how to best handle that, you're going to have a lot of programmers going quietly insane.

The PS2 was a horror to develop for because it was a finicky in-order machine with crappy documentation and support, as well as a tiny cache that amplified these problems. Its implementation of any particular API was irrelevant.

I was actually going to respond to his post but was too tired...glad you stepped up.

I agree with your assessment...an API will only get you so far.