Making of Shadow of the Colossus

[Arnage]

Here's an interesting article (http://www.dyingduck.com/sotc/making_of_sotc.html) about the technical side of making SOTC, showing that when you really try you can squeeze quite some nice "next-gen" effects from the good old PS2.

[protocol_image]

While I will admit that Shadow does look incredible, and that the PS2 has some games (Metal Gear Solid 3, Devil May Cry 3, God of War, ...) that don't immediately look PS2-ish, I am shocked at how so many people are not ready to let their PS2 die. If I had to pick one single reason to upgrade to next gen hardware, it would be memory limitiations, specifically texture memory. The PS2 only has 24MB of useable memory, which includes textures, 3d geometry, sound, music, scripting, AI, network code....you name it. At the moment, the gurus capable of making these games look so good on PS2 have mastered streaming from the DVD. However, this isn't as good a thing as it sounds. More streaming requires more seeking from the DVD laser. This can/will lead to faster burn out of these devices (an all too common problem for PS2's CDROM laser). Also, since it requires such advanced control of the hardware, only the top-top-top tier game houses will milk the system for all its worth, and where's the fun in that?

In any case, the limited texture resolution on PS2 is really starting to show when compared to 360 and PC titles. It's practically as night and day of a difference as the gap between PS1 and PS2 games. Of course I'm not talking about games that are multi-sku, because those are almost ALWAYS built with the lowest common denomenator (read: PS2) as the standard. Just as an example, take a look at DOA2:Hardcore and DOA4. You might be shocked.

Take this as just a statement of things that have been noticed by a gamer who will always own all game consoles.....I try to be as anti-biased as possible.

[Morrolan]

I'm not really a Sony fan, so I wish this team had an individual name, not just Sony Development Team #5123231, so I could praise them specifically. It's not Kojima or Rockstar, or anyone else that makes me so sure that I'll eventually buy a PS3. It's this team. Just the thought of what they could do with the PS3 hardware (or any next gen system,) makes me sexually aroused.

[Worldcrafter]

While using a faster system is one good way to improve your game's look, there is something to be said for developers who can optimize their game engine's code to run games on a system that one would not think possible. A fun technical challenge. Then again, I would like to see something like Shadow on one of the 3 next gen systems.

Psst Arnage. I think you want to use squeeze in your text. Squize looks like a cross between squeeze and jiz, and I certainly don't want that on my PS2, no matter how hard the developers might try.

[CrashCart]

I'm not really a Sony fan, so I wish this team had an individual name, not just Sony Development Team #5123231, so I could praise them specifically. It's not Kojima or Rockstar, or anyone else that makes me so sure that I'll eventually buy a PS3. It's this team. Just the thought of what they could do with the PS3 hardware (or any next gen system,) makes me sexually aroused.
Doesn't the development team use Project ICO or something crazy like that? In any event, Fumito Ueda was the director of both Ico and SoTC. So he's probably the name you'd want to look for on upcoming titles. I think there was a recent report of him confirming the next project was definitely for PS3, though no other details were released.

[protocol_image]

Ok, how that I have actually read the entire article, my stance is strengthened even more. The majority of the techniques they have implied are already there in SDK's such as Unreal Engine 3.0. Not too mention that in order to get realistic shadows in the Shadow of The Colossus, their art team was required to make seperate 3D models for these "shadows". Again....already taken care of in next-gen development suites.

However, being that it IS a Sony produced game, it was bound to release exclusively on the PS2. There's no way they would release this artistically beautiful game 2 years later on a fledgeling PS3 system when they could hit Christmas release '05 on a system everyone and their mom already owns. I can bitch all I want about integrity of the art, but it's always going to come down to highest profit margin. :\

[Arnage]

Psst Arnage. I think you want to use squeeze in your text. Squize looks like a cross between squeeze and jiz, and I certainly don't want that on my PS2, no matter how hard the developers might try.

English < Dutch :p

From a development standpoint I prefer this kind of work compared to just throwing a shitload of poly's and pixelshaders at the latest hardware. It might look nice and all, but all the other games will look the same. Every new generation brings a new "default" look, this time it seems to be shiny normalmapped plastic, but only after a while you'll see games where the dev's really try to make a unique look.

So to sum it up, not only does dutch beat english, but artistic use of old hardware beats overusing the new lensflare on high end systems.

[protocol_image]

I will agree 100% that it takes a top notch developer to push the hardware and define their own unique visual style, and that those developers usually make the best games. But there is a point where it becomes more beneificial to focus on gameplay over tech.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I like to play more than 5 games a year, and I would like them to look better than average while costing less than average.

Also, there has to be a time where we stop caring what can be done. I mean, I'm sure if somebody tried hard enough, pixel shaded polygons could be possible on the NES!

[Kelegacy]

I could keep playing my PS2 into 2008 if more games like this were released frequently enough, in terms of quality and gameplay. The PS2 is 6 years old and I still don't want it to die.

Upgrading is for chumps.

[Nimos]

Here's an interesting article (http://www.dyingduck.com/sotc/making_of_sotc.html) about the technical side of making SOTC, showing that when you really try you can squeeze quite some nice "next-gen" effects from the good old PS2.

These "next-gen" effects result to some serious drops in SoC's framerate. (also noticable in San Andreas) :mad:

[aversion2k]

The shell fur technique is quite cool, looks pretty blurry though.
Its cool to see work arounds that people come up with when working with crazy limitations.

...The PS2 only has 24MB of useable memory, which includes textures, 3d geometry, sound, music, scripting, AI, network code....you name it...

And worse is the fact that if you have memory left over in one department, you cant use it for another. For example, Hey I have room left for sound, I'll use it for textures, oh damn I cant :(. Its all preassigned.

[protocol_image]

Upgrading is for chumps.

Cool! Then I hope you continue to enjoy your VHS tapes and audio cassettes.

I sometimes wish I had your patience, because being an early adopter has cost me thousands upon thousdands of dollars over my lifetime....and I've always been a mall worker until recently, so it's by no means been a luxurious lifestyle.

However, I must say that it's much easier to ride the crest of the wave-o-progress than to float behind it and play catch up, essentially missing out on things that weren't instant successes. Have fun trying to find Gitaroo Man or REZ for PS2 (one of the coolest music/rhythm games ever) because by now it's only on Ebay...or on my shelf.

[Kelegacy]

Cool! Then I hope you continue to enjoy your VHS tapes and audio cassettes.

I sometimes wish I had your patience, because being an early adopter has cost me thousands upon thousdands of dollars over my lifetime....and I've always been a mall worker until recently, so it's by no means been a luxurious lifestyle.

However, I must say that it's much easier to ride the crest of the wave-o-progress than to float behind it and play catch up, essentially missing out on things that weren't instant successes. Have fun trying to find Gitaroo Man or REZ for PS2 (one of the coolest music/rhythm games ever) because by now it's only on Ebay...or on my shelf.
I stopped being an early adopter when I went to college. I learned the value of money (having little), and realized if I just wait a bit I can get the same game/console/gadget for cheaper in a short span of time. Also, having purchased a top of the line PC rig about 2 years ago and the price for the technology, monitors, etc get cut in half within 6 months, I swore off making too many impulsive decisions. And the N64 was the last system I bought exactly at launch.

I'm not archaic, far from it. But the PS2 isn't dead--maybe in terms of pushing the graphical envelope, yes, but with gameplay and quality games about to bombard the PS2 in 2006, I am glad for long-lived consoles. Upgrading tech can wait if the games are still good.

[protocol_image]

I would just like to thank you for keeping your replies from being stabs/pokes/ie: your typical board reply.....this is THE reason I continually come back to Evil Avatar. :)

[Kelegacy]

I would just like to thank you for keeping your replies from being stabs/pokes/ie: your typical board reply.....this is THE reason I continually come back to Evil Avatar. :)
Oh, I didn't intend to be antagonistic with my first reply. I said "Upgrading is for chumps" in a joking sense. I'm a closet geek, and that requires I indulge in spending hoards of money each year on stuff I really don't need. But I try to be frugal and research my purchases more and more these days. That is why I bought a DS in early January--the ends justified the means. More specifically, there were a bunch of great games worthy of a purchase.

And I will never attack another forum member for an opinion--not purposefully; I have a bit more decency than that (though some could argue otherwise!).

Reanimated and Red Cloak are still fair game, though. :)

[danhoo]

Cool! Then I hope you continue to enjoy your VHS tapes and audio cassettes.

I sometimes wish I had your patience, because being an early adopter has cost me thousands upon thousdands of dollars over my lifetime....and I've always been a mall worker until recently, so it's by no means been a luxurious lifestyle.

However, I must say that it's much easier to ride the crest of the wave-o-progress than to float behind it and play catch up, essentially missing out on things that weren't instant successes. Have fun trying to find Gitaroo Man or REZ for PS2 (one of the coolest music/rhythm games ever) because by now it's only on Ebay...or on my shelf.

I generally agree with this, although I've saved a lot of money by waiting. Even better, sometimes you get really lucky -- for example, I bought Gitaroo Man brand new for $30 a few months ago at GameStop, thanks to the whole GamesQuestDirect reprint controversy. But you can't count on reprints, of course.

[Okamura_Takashi]

The majority of the techniques they have implied are already there in SDK's such as Unreal Engine 3.0.

That's the problem right there. These new-fangled engines keep taking the work away from the programmer so that in the end there's nothing to do! ;) Gotta use your ninja skillz somewhere...

[danhoo]

Random post -- this article is a really neat read for graphics geeks. As others have said, a lot of these tricks won't be necessary in 'next-gen' hardware, but it's still nifty to realize what they had to do given the hardware they had to work with.

Personally, I worry a little that once all the cool graphics tricks become easy to do thanks to really good middleware like Unreal's engine, a lot of games will start looking the same, kinda like how there was a point where every game had to have a way to show a lens flare.

Publisher: "We want HDR lighting"
Developer: "But, it's a platformer. In outer space."
Publisher: "Can't you just turn on the enableHDR flag in the engine?"
Developer: "Well yeah, but..."
Publisher: "SHIP IT!"

Of course, I realize art direction will drive content and visual style, not technology. And in the end it's all about the gameplay, not how it looks.

Now I've forgotten my point. Probably didn't have one. Peace out!

[Balthasar]

While I will admit that Shadow does look incredible, and that the PS2 has some games (Metal Gear Solid 3, Devil May Cry 3, God of War, ...) that don't immediately look PS2-ish, I am shocked at how so many people are not ready to let their PS2 die.
Um, because you can't get those games anyplace else? It's not that hard to figure out. Memory bandwidth and processor power don't mean anything to most gamers. We're not the ones making the games.

[nemyhlovecraft]

You know I understand your feelings about "moving on" from current gen consoles. There are two points I'd like to set forward though. First, the idea of "next-gen" and corporations pushing the "hd experience" is a corporate strategy. Technically speaking, anything that you can do on XBox 360's hardware you can do on PS2, GCN, and current-gen XBox. Now I am speaking in terms of graphics engines and rendering techniques, because naturally without the rendering techniques thought up and implemented on the PC and current gen systems, MS/Sony/Nintendo would not have known what pieces of hardware to focus most on to produce the best frame rate given a high level of shader technologies in their next gen systems. So, are the graphics engines of the PS2 dated? Well, probably, but the PS2 is the oldest of the current gen systems. Honestly, a lot of the visuals on the PS2 were dated with the release of the GCN and definately the release of the XBox. For instance, just because of the memory bandwidth, SOTC could have run at a stable 30-40 fps the whole game on XBox, I'm sure. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that next-gen is relative. And if you think about what was different from the PS1 to the PS2 the main thing is a programmable rendering pipeline (i.e. pixel/vertex shaders). The only thing I have seen on the XBox 360 so far (besides the new improved XBL) is an enormous support for pixel shader technology ala DirectX9. So, I would think of XBox 360 as more of an XBox 1.5: the same thing only stronger. So getting that out of the way, on to point two.

Not in a long time have I been excited about an entire lineup for a system like this year's PS2 schedule: Grandia III, Tales of Legendia, Black, FFXII, Kingdom Hearts II, Metal Gear 3: Subsistence. Huge beautiful games. On the converse, I am a huge fan of the Silent Hill series, and it bugs me that the Konami team responsible has already stated that SH5 is going to PS3. Its exciting to see what they do with the hardware, but its also painful that I will have to drop $500+ on the PS3 before I can play it. So, I guess what I'm saying here is: if the games are so good on the current hardware, why do I need new hardware (especially if there is no innovative approach in the new hardware). Granted, I am incredibly excited about both the PS3 and the "Revolution" because I think so much of what they offer could be innovation, but I say: Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. SOTC is an amazing game in its scale, its development, and its implementation and yes, maybe other hardware could have made it more, but honestly I think the game accomplishes exactly what it set out to and to want more at this point is less appreciation and more greed.

Honestly if you feel that way about the PS2, you've read too many bad online magazine reviews. MGS3, DMC3 and God of War are EXACTLY what the PS2 can do. Because look at MGS2, DMC 1 & 2, and FFX! Those games look phenomenal and the only reason people think they looked dated is because of games like Splinter Cell 3, Chronicles of Riddick, and Half Life 2 for XBox, and RE4 for the GC. The thing is: all these games I just mentioned are special cases for their respective systems. The have the complete package: great graphics, phenomenal gameplay, and engaging stories. I don't think it was the graphics that made MGS3, I think it was the full package that really sets a spot light on it. Chronicles of Riddick wouldn't have been so amazing if it weren't for the dark, gritty feel and the continuous shifts in setting and story. RE4 was breathing new life into a well-loved but incredibly tired universe. It was the game that Resident Evil should have been all along. These things make those games stand out. The fact that the graphics are mentioned is because so much thought and creativity went into making the games, that how could a detail such as textures and lighting not be meticulously crafted to match the full feel of the game.

Moral of the story: PS2 dead? Is it shocking that people want to see more amazing stuff come to the current gen hardware? I don't see how that can be possible. Why would I want to set aside $400 on a system with no good games, or $500 on a system that I haven't even seen evidence of its existence yet. Why would anyone? Bad consumerist whore! BAD!