Activision's GUN Misfires

[fernsho]

GamerGod is running a controversial article about Activision's GUN and the current boycott under way.

From the article: (http://www.gamergod.com/article.php?article_id=3563)

"In reaction to the content of GUN, the Association for American Indian Development has started a boycott against Activision. They have requested that certain explicit violence and stereotyping be removed from the game. Even though the historical period portrayed in GUN was fraught with racism, Activision’s decision to publish a racially stereotyped videogame represents a serious misstep in social responsibility. Like Custer’s Revenge, GUN provokes wonder. In this case, the industry has unfortunately bought into the popular misconception that games are frivolous because they are made for fun.."

[DigiWiz]

Lol.

We also play games that depic the world war two period in a realistic fashion, allow you to play nazis and kill allied soliders, etc, etc.

We play games like Civilization in which you can nuke the crap out of about any nation if you want to.

There are hundreds of movies in the Western genre out there that do that. They should just STFU.

Also, reading the article, the writer fails to mention several facts

a) Yes you kill the indians. then you find out they are right and help them to slaughter masses of white man. A whole lot more of them. You also free indians from prison, you support their attack against the a fort.

b) Yes Red Dead Revolver successfully cast a half breed as main character - so does GUN! The main character IS half indian.

c) The indians don't cry louder when they die, they just have a different voice actor

d) You can scalp anyone in the game, not just indians.

e) Indians are portrayed not worse than white men in the game. The most noble character in the story is an indian. There are sadistic, evil, murdering white men all over the place, many more than indians.

So the author should check his facts and actually play more than the first 5 minutes of the game and then rant on about how politically incorrect it is. It's not worse than Lucasarts Outlaws, or Red Dead Revolver. It's not a good game, by any means, it's ok - but it doesn't do any special things that haven't been done in other games and more importantly, tons and tons of movies.

[Neosho]

123 omg i don't care.

Digi said it all for me.

[Sazime]

Very simply, this is a private matter of entertainment. So, if you don't like it, don't purchase it. Nothing more needs to be said.

[Tricky Thumb]

Any associations that wish to censor any form of art or expression needs to pull their heads out of their asses. No matter what someone is upset about, it doesn't give them the right to tell someone else what their art should or shouldn't contain.

Fucking basic liberties, people.

[sonysyndicate]

Well if the Indians are banning it then I am too. I just can't get enough of their casinos!

[Neosho]

I was going to make neat points as well, but once again digi said it all...i love people misrepresenting videogames...almost as much as i love dear jack thompson.

Edit: I esp. love their gripe about how there were no american indians in the ARG...

[rickmus]

"I am also currently producing a game for Wisdom of the Elders, Inc., a non profit American Indian organization with a mission of historical preservation. Hopefully with indie steps we can change the direction of indigenous representations in game development."

So the author of the story is working on a competiting product. Ah, once again, strong ethics in game journalism. Glad it was fully disclosed in their forums and not in article ( as far as I can tell ).

[KamaItachi]

I resent his implication that all we pale faces lack social responsibility in big heap um video games.

[Savok]

Comparing GUN to Custer's Revenge is akin to nazi Internet name calling.

[mister_slim]

That has to be one of the worst intros I have ever read. What a tortured analogy.

[Royal Fool]

Electronic beeping trinket carry big smoke. Chief Hipocrite want to blow pipe of friendship with pink people.

[DigiWiz]

Meh look at it, it's one overzealous girl trying to get attention and seeing discrimination where there is none. Let's hope the mainstream sites stay clear of this and treat it as what it is, a few people looking for attention.

The whole connection between Atari and Gun is so weak, it's all for show.

The EA article sould read

Newsflash - someone, somewhere feels discriminated by something in some game , somehow. Gamers don't give a damn.

[Heretic Machine]

1. Censorship = Bad.

2. "Native Americans" make up the smallest portion of our population, as far as I know. So, whoopty-shit, they can boycott whoever they want.

[GodFather]

A quote from Gamergod:

"Me no like em GUN. Me thinks em you should not stereotype Indians for we have fought so hard to erase the tarnish (hiccup) the white people has painted on our great people"
-Chief Notsohappy

[bean19]

I can't wait until they make a game about plantations. . . Cotton Tycoon maybe.

If the slaves act up, they get the whip.

[Taco]

I'm going to boycott every WW2 game because of all the white on white violence.

[Lord_Don]

Digiwiz comes up with a better rebuttal than most of you.

Resorting to native american stereotypes makes you look uneducated and racist. ("Electronic beeping trinket carry big smoke." "Me no like em GUN.")

Native Americans may make up the smallest portion of our population but that's why civil liberties are there, to protect the minority from the majority.

I don't agree the game should be boycotted specifically because of the points listed by Digi but that doesn't excuse almost everyone else's crass behavior in this thread.

-LD

[bean19]

Lord_Don - Well, with Digi saying all the smart stuff, the rest of us have been making jokes. . . Sorry you didn't see the humor.

Also, I'm not defending everything. . . there are some idiot exceptions, but I found the Native American voice parody you picked on specifically very funny.

[Taco]

I wasn't joking.

[EternalGamer]

While I haven't played the game, it seems clear after reading DigiWiz's well developed rebuttal that they really don't have much of a case here. But I love it when people take one mistaken example like this and generalize it to argue that no minority or misrepresented group ever has a point worth listening to. What they need to be boycotting is this forum. There are enough inappropriate racist comments in this thread to completely justify it.

Just a hint for those not overtly skills in rhetoric: if you want to debunk someone else's charges of racism, it helps if you don't reveal yourself to be a racist bastard.

Dan

[Taco]

I laugh at racist jokes. I'm not racist. Go figure.

[EternalGamer]

The humor in those types of jokes (and many others) comes from the fact that one recognizes some truth in it. A racist joke isn't "funny" if it doesn't refers to something you recognize as being "true" in reality or a "true" sterotype. Personally, I never found such jokes funny to begin with, but even if I did, I would consider the laugh not worth the expense.

Dan

[Sensei-X]

The game is sitting in the bargain bin of all major retailers, so who gives a fark at this point. Maybe next time they'll pick on a game people actually are buying.

[Taco]

The humor in those types of jokes (and many others) comes from the fact that one recognizes some truth in it. A racist joke isn't "funny" if it doesn't refers to something you recognize as being "true" in reality or a "true" sterotype.

Seeing as how stereotypes only exist if they are or were at one time at least partially true, that's a given. Part of the humour in a joke is just how tasteless it is. Similar to the "jokes" in the Aristocrats movie.

Personally I question people who go out of their way to make themselves look like the crusaders for equality, not just in race but everything similar. It's like they are trying to convince themselves of something.

If you only find jokes funny that are directed at a specific subset of people and not others that's different. That's not me.

[KamaItachi]

Seeing as how stereotypes only exist if they are or were at one time at least partially true, that's a given. Part of the humour in a joke is just how tasteless it is. Similar to the "jokes" in the Aristocrats movie.

Personally I question people who go out of their way to make themselves look like the crusaders for equality, not just in race but everything similar. It's like they are trying to convince themselves of something.

If you only find jokes funny that are directed at a specific subset of people and not others that's different. That's not me.


For me, that sort of thing can be funny, precisely because it isn't true. Yet somehow, there is a kind of parody image that builds up in people's minds. Back home in N.Ireland, there's all sorts of jokes about Catholics/Protistants, eyebrows being too close together, kicking with the wrong foot "Why is E.T. a Catholic? 'cause he looks like one, boom, boom!" They're interchangable and totally baseless of fact, yet some people do actually believe in them.

These ideas are so ridiculous that all we can do is laugh at them, and the peope who believe/perpetuate them, not at the perceived target (insert minority, religion etc.. here).

[GunnyMo]

Indians need to get the fuck over it. What a bunch of whiners. Go back to your casinos and keep raking in millions of dollars.

[Savok]

Native Americans may make up the smallest portion of our population but that's why civil liberties are there, to protect the minority from the majority.
And when does the line get crossed that has the minority dictating to the majority?

[GunnyMo]

Just a hint for those not overtly skills in rhetoric: if you want to debunk someone else's charges of racism, it helps if you don't reveal yourself to be a racist bastard.

Dan

I'd like to point out that it is not in any way "racist" if you disagree with what a so-called "minority" says. Just because I think that Indians should stop whining about something that happened two centuries ago doesn't make me a racist; it makes me politically incorrect. If a black guy (OMG he said Black Guy! Racist!) says "Man, it sure is cold today!" and I say, "Naw, it feels kind of warm to me" that could be considered "racism" in today's moronic society.

As I've always said: I'm not racist. I hate stupid people equally no matter what color, shape or size they are.

[Taco]

And when does the line get crossed that has the minority dictating to the majority?Just before affirmative action.

[EternalGamer]

And when does the line get crossed that has the minority dictating to the majority?

I'm not sure where that line is, but the facts that every president of our country has been white, male and Christian, and at least 80% of our congressman are the same, that our only recognized religious holidays are Christian in origin, and how white English is the written standard imposed on everybody, I would say we are pretty damn far from the point where the minority is dictating to the majority. Unless, that is, you are talking about the economic minority. In that case, you are 100% dead on.

Dan

[Lord_Don]

Wow, zing, EternalGamer.

-LD

[EternalGamer]

Seeing as how stereotypes only exist if they are or were at one time at least partially true, that's a given. Part of the humour in a joke is just how tasteless it is. Similar to the "jokes" in the Aristocrats movie.

Personally I question people who go out of their way to make themselves look like the crusaders for equality, not just in race but everything similar. It's like they are trying to convince themselves of something.

If you only find jokes funny that are directed at a specific subset of people and not others that's different. That's not me.

First, I don't think all sterotypes have a basis in reality. Ever heard of an "indian giver"? Reading the history between the colonizers and the indians will make you realize how incredibly ironic that stereotype is and how it is not based in reality at all.

The point about universally tasteless humor is fair enough. And there certainly are a number of people who take that line (the South Park guys, for example). But personally, I don't think that being an asshole to everyone is necessarily being "equal." There are certain groups that are a lot more vunerable to the perceptions being promoted in the stereotypes than others. Just as an extreme example to prove my point, if you have a room with 99 guys telling sexist jokes about women all the time and 1 women who tells sexist jokes about men, I seriously doubt that the men are as intimidated about the jokes as much as the women would be. They have no reason to be intimidated, they are the majority, it's easy for them to "laugh" at themselves without it becoming a vunerability.

It is not that I go out of my way to avoid finding these jokes funny, though I certainly would. I just never found them funny. My immediate reaction is repulsion. But then I was also always the kid that thought Bugs Bunny was a dick for the arrogant way he made fun of his opponents. Smug superiority complexes and making fun of someone in a more compromised position than you was never something I found all that amusing.

Dan

[GunnyMo]

and how white English is the written standard imposed on everybody,
Dan

"White English?" ROFL. We are an English based society so why shouldn't there be one standard for reading and writing? Do you hear the Chinese complaining about having to read and write chinese all the time? Sheesh.

If there wasn't one standard nothing would ever get done because everyone would be reading and writing in their own way.

Don't be such a moral elitist.

[didragondi]

I played some of the game and since it was so short, I rented it. I think we should make rude crass remarks about developers who make bad games. Seriously, I am sure at least some of the 'whiners' aren't even american indians because there arent enough left after they were hunted to extinction almost in their own country of freaking origin. I live in INDIANa and I could not tell you the last time I laid eyes on an american indian. To a point, I would say maybe some of the 'whiners' are expressing guilt, maybe rightfully so, over what our forefathers did.

[GodFather]

Ever heard of an "indian giver"?
Dan


Anyone remember the Seinfeld episode where he dated the Indian lady and made all stereotype references and didnt realize it? It was so funny, especially when he said "you Indian giver"

Hey look I think were so Politically Correct these days, that its too much. Someone is always being offended by something. Yes its very good to be aware of it but this is just rediculous.

Hey Im Italian should I make a big stink about the GodFather game coming out portraying Italians as ruthless murderers as a way of life and most Italians are connected to the mob in some way? No way I could careless in fact I enjoy the movies because I dont take every little thing as a presonal insult to me.

Ive played Gun and think its absolutely silly how upset they are over it. If they want to get upset it should be how expensive a 5 hour game can be! Now thats something to be upset over!

[GodFather]

"White English?" ROFL. We are an English based society so why shouldn't there be one standard for reading and writing? Do you hear the Chinese complaining about having to read and write chinese all the time? Sheesh.

If there wasn't one standard nothing would ever get done because everyone would be reading and writing in their own way.

Don't be such a moral elitist.

I agree 100%. Its the same as kids not having a Christmas holiday concert because it might offend someone, so instead they have "holiday" concerts. Its just getting more and more rediculous.

[Taco]

I'm Italian to(well the good half ;)), it's been my experience Italians like mafia movies more than anyone. Go figure.

[Salesmunn]

GamerGod is running a controversial article about Activision's GUN and the current boycott under way.

From the article: (http://www.gamergod.com/article.php?article_id=3563)

I'm going to boycott Activision as well. GUN sucked ass and I'm not going to buy anymore horrible Activision games.

[didragondi]

I do remember in a Sopranos(how ironic) episode, one of the more wealthy non mobster characters complaining about how the people like Tony Soprano made the rest of them look.

[didragondi]

I also wondered if Indian giver wasnt meant the other way around, like you gave it to that person like you would if they were an indian, then took it back because they could not stop you. I think I read somewhere that there were treaties that worked out like that.

[TyphoidMarty]

It is not that I go out of my way to avoid finding these jokes funny, though I certainly would. I just never found them funny. My immediate reaction is repulsion. But then I was also always the kid that thought Bugs Bunny was a dick for the arrogant way he made fun of his opponents. Smug superiority complexes and making fun of someone in a more compromised position than you was never something I found all that amusing.

"I don't find this funny so no-one else should either - here let me badger everyone making fun of YET ANOTHER frivolous boycott/lawsuit/action into being the polically correct shill I am.

Dan
PS Love me, as I am obviously desperately seeking attention"

Thank you.

PS Very well covered Digi, all salient points of yet more pointless emo drama covered beautifully.

[Taco]

The ACLU is emo?

[EternalGamer]

"White English?" ROFL. We are an English based society so why shouldn't there be one standard for reading and writing? Do you hear the Chinese complaining about having to read and write chinese all the time? Sheesh.

If there wasn't one standard nothing would ever get done because everyone would be reading and writing in their own way.

Don't be such a moral elitist.

Actually it's not just white English, it's white upper class English. I teach English, and every day I am reminded of this fact when black students--who are otherwise very competant and intelligent--struggle because they essentially have to learn two versions of the english language, both of which are equally arbitrary in nature. For example, someone speaking in ebonics would say "You is," which technically makes a lot more sense. When we say "You are" ("proper" English) you are combining a singular subject (you) with a plural verb (are). That makes no logical sense. There are "rules" to ebonic speech just as their are rules to white english, neither one is more "logical" than the other. It is not a matter of a communication problem either. Anyone can understand what a person speaking ebonics means very clearly. However, they also think of them as being "less intelligent" because their language is not "good english." Basically unless you learn talk like an upper class white person, you are judged as sounding stupid, but it is not the person speaking that is stupid, it's the standard that is being forced upon them that is.

Dan

[Taco]

Ebonics is and was developed from slang. If there are rules now, then it's just developed slang.

[drakkarim]

i was going to forward what Digi wrote to the AfAID but i coudlnt' find their website for contact info.

i think they're looking for contribution money, and it seems games are a hot topic by all the ignorant politicians.

[Tia]

2. "Native Americans" make up the smallest portion of our population, as far as I know. So, whoopty-shit, they can boycott whoever they want.

So does Jewish people in europe.



In case you are not smart enough to get the reference (which I suspect to be the case)... this was a comment on how Native Americans are smallest portion of your population because you exterminated them all. So if I were you I wouldn't say it out loud this way.

[EternalGamer]

I do remember in a Sopranos(how ironic) episode, one of the more wealthy non mobster characters complaining about how the people like Tony Soprano made the rest of them look.


They did several plot lines about this issue on the show and approached it from a number of different angles. I thought each (like the show overall) was very well done. It gave a fair representation of those who disagree, not that they would have been watching to begin with, but still.

For the record, I don't think every case of minority persecution is valid, and it is sometimes used as a crutch or an excuse by people to avoid individual responsibility. However, that does not mean that there are not valid complaints to be had. It is not an all or nothing thing. I just get annoyed at how people take the invalid or weak claims (like this one), and then generalize to argue that all other claims by minority groups should be dismissed likewise.

Dan

[EternalGamer]

Ebonics is and was developed from slang. If there are rules now, then it's just developed slang.

Actually many linguist argue that a lot of the characteristics of ebonics came from a French and English creole (such as the use of the double negative, which is used in french--je ne parle pas francias). Ebonics is not new, it's a fairly old language and the rules haven't changed much since their original use by the first blacks that were brought to the United States through slavery. (Actually, some argue that it goes back earlier and is based on an African creole used to communicate and trade with Europeans much earlier but that's another discussion.)

What you call "slang" just the way a particular group speaks. Proper english also developed out of a "slang" it was just the "slang" of the economically dominant group, which others wanted to immitate. The first grammar books in the 17th century were designed to teach middle class kids how to speak like members of the upperclass. Before that, there was no written standard. The "rules" of English were derrived from the way this group spoke, in other words they were "descriptive" rules, not "prescriptive" ones. Try reading Chaucer sometime or even an unammended version of Shakespeare, you'll see that alot of the words are spelled differently all the time because there was no written standard. Shakespeare, whom I still consider to be the greatest English writer, would be consider "illiterate" by our standards. We only have a few samples of his own handwriting in the form of signitures, and even in those he never spelled his own name the same way twice.

Dan

[Taco]

You are just arguing semantics now. I still don't see why you think ebonics should be taught. If I teach myself spanish and do so horribly and my friends catch on, who then speak it just as bad, apparently we should start teaching crappy spanish to people. Your logic is totally baffling to me.

[EternalGamer]

I'm not arguing semantics, I'm telling you this history of the development of "proper" english. All language rules are descriptive rules, they only describe how a particular group uses language. New words come into use and old words change meaning and pronunciation all the time. The dictionary changes its definitions and pronunciations based upon the way people use words. If you got enough people using your "crappy" spanish, then yes, it would become the dominant form of spanish and would become "proper."

I'm not at all saying we should teach ebonics, I am well aware that we cannot change the cultural perceptions of language overnight. The sad fact is that blacks have to learn white english if they want to suceed in the world and not be seen as ignorant. But that doesn't change the fact that this standard is arbitrary, unfair, and results in minorities having a significant disadvantage from the start.

Dan

[Taco]

How things formed 200-300 years ago is irrelevant semantics to the current world. The dominant language in this country is American English and that should be required learning for everyone and the only English language people should be stressed to communicate with. You seem to be ok with a country fragmented by language barriers all in the name of equality.

he sad fact is that blacks have to learn white english if they want to suceed in the world and not be seen as ignorant

It's not a white/black thing in this country. It's a proper/improper thing. Maybe if ebonics was brought from Africa there would be a very slight point in your argument. But it's a product of class and not race.

[EternalGamer]

The "proper/ improper" thing IS a "white/ black" thing and a class thing. That's how it was formed. That's what it still is. Did you completely ignore everything I just said? And it doesn't fragment people to not stigmatize their own variation of the language. I can assure you that people in the Renaissance got around communicating just fine without a standard. Everybody can understand what someone speaking in ebonics is saying. It's not a matter of clairity or a communication problem. It is simply them being judged "ignorant" because they don't speak exactly like white majority.

Dan

[Taco]

It's only a white/black thing as far as the ratio of blacks in a lesser educated class. That's a different issue altogether.

And it's them being ignorant because they couldn't be bothered to learn what the rest of the country speaks. And by them I don't mean blacks.

[EternalGamer]

And whites are "ignorant" and "uneducated" because they can't speak ebonics. It's only that they are not judged to be so. Nor are they forced to learn a second variation of the language. It's not a coincidence that the version they naturally speak is alot closer to the written standard.

Dan

[Taco]

I'm sorry, you like to compare Ebonics and American English as being equally valid in present day America. I totally understand your thought process, but it's just not true. I guess that's where the line is drawn between us.

[EternalGamer]

They are equally valid from a logical standpoint. As I stated earlier, there are many rules of ebonics that are actually more logical (saying "You is" rather than "You are" for example).

From a perception standpoint, they are not equally valid. People certainly do think that one is a "proper" form and one is more "educated" but their basis for justifying this is circular.

Dan

[ÜberJumper]

wait a second... back to the topic at hand here...


Custer’s Revenge hit retail shelves during the advent of console videogames in the 1980’s. In the Atari 2600 videogame, the player takes the role of a pixilated, naked General George Armstrong Custer, the historic military officer who devastated American Indian communities prior to his death in a battle at Little Big Horn in 1876. The object of the game is to dodge Indian arrows as you make your way to the other side of the screen, where an Indian woman is already tied to a pole. The game ends in one of two ways. You either lose by getting shot by arrows, or you rape the Indian woman and win.


Is this actually serious? I can't imagine raping anyone being even remotely "OK" even in the big hair 80's. Who is the idiot that actually thought this would be a good idea to put into a game?

[Demo_Boy]

I wonder if Prey will get into the same hot water.

[EternalGamer]

UberJumper, it definitely was real. I'm surprised you hadn't heard about it before. Though it wasn't a mainstream game by any stretch. I believe it was only sold through places that sold "adult" software.

Dan

[Taco]

Is this actually serious? I can't imagine raping anyone being even remotely "OK" even in the big hair 80's. Who is the idiot that actually thought this would be a good idea to put into a game?

Yeah, I read about it and saw a screeny somewhere. I can't remember the circumstances behind it.

[ÜberJumper]

Well, I was only in my teens by the end of the 80's so I wasn't exactly hanging out in porn shops looking to buy games for my step brother's 2600, so that probably explains why I hadn't heard of it.

[Lord_Don]

It generally gets dragged up in almost every article, tv special, or feature about sex in video games.

-LD

[didragondi]

Even for the 80's that is amazing to me. In reference to ebonics versus 'proper' english, eternal gamer, I have a similar profession to a teacher and work as a social worker/counselor, and I will tell you what I told an african american adolescent that I worked with: Even though we might understand what he means when he says 'that is mines' and 'axe a question', that in order to adapt himself to his best possible chance of success, he needs to learn to speak/write 'proper' english because even if ebonics is a language of itself, certain job interviewers and college entrance interviewers will judge you unacceptable if you do not demonstrate an ability to communicate in 'proper' english. RIght or wrong, that is reality and youdo children a diservice to let them believe that your unconditional positive regard means no one will judge them.

[ÜberJumper]

Lord_Don:

Doesn't the church of CSI teach that rape isn't about sex?

[Taco]

There's some stuff out there right now thats as bad or worse than that 80's game. Luckily the press hasn't gotten their hands on them yet.

[Lord_Don]

Doesn't the church of CSI teach that rape isn't about sex?

I'm not saying I agree with the articles when they tie it to sex in videogames. Just that it's done. It would fit better if there was a feature on crime or racism in videogames, or just plain stupid ideas burned to silicon.

-LD

[didragondi]

There's some stuff out there right now thats as bad or worse than that 80's game. From what I read about manhunt, I would put it in this category. Once again amazing, that computer simulated fellatio gets media attention and being directed to kill people a variety of ways does not. That is one game that, if what I heard is true, earns and deserves an adults only rating whereas at least by virtue of that one scene, GTA does not.

[jacktion]

Wow, long thread.

Why are you people getting mad at Native Americans for saying they don't like this? It is a free country. It is ironic that you complain about the Native Americans complaining by saying "they are stifling activision's free speech!1!"

Don't these Native Americans have the right to stand up for themselves and say these bloody insulting stereotypes are not right?
The game does portray Native Americans in a negative savage light. After a history of deception and genocide, I have to sympathize with them when they are still today portrayed as animalistic savages. You would think we would be smarter than that.

I will vote with my dollars, and I urge everyone else to also not purchase this game and tell your friends not to either. Although that shouldn't be hard since it scored so poorly. Apparently ignorance and a lack of talent go hand in hand for game developers.

[Taco]

Did you read the 1st post jack? I haven't played the game so I'm going off that, haven't seen anyone refute him.

[didragondi]

Like I said before, I rented it; and the enemies were mostly white like the first post said.

[Steele Johnson]

I'm Italian and I don't have anything to say about the Godfather. It's just a damn story based on some facts. Period.

Man, there's always complainers. Sheesh...

[Savok]

I'm not sure where that line is, but the facts that every president of our country has been white, male and Christian, and at least 80% of our congressman are the same, that our only recognized religious holidays are Christian in origin, and how white English is the written standard imposed on everybody, I would say we are pretty damn far from the point where the minority is dictating to the majority. Unless, that is, you are talking about the economic minority. In that case, you are 100% dead on.

Dan
That's a painfully simple view but you're a school teacher which explains everything. It's ok, we understand.

[EternalGamer]

It is not nearly as simple as your conspiracy theory that the minorities are taking over, which doesn't seem based in any type of reality whatsoever, and certainly isn't verified by economic statistics, nor cultural norms.

If your comment was suppose to be some type of dig at the "liberal" instuition of academia, there is a reason it tends to be what a certain group of the population likes to label "liberal" (and I say a certian group because academic discourse is anything but ideologically unified but that very lack of unification is what some people label "liberal"). It is because people who actually take the time to investigate rather than prejudge and label are people that refuse to stick their heads in the sand and toe one particular, simplistic, unified ideological line. They are people that recognize that many values and percieved truths often do not hold up to scrutiny.

Dan

[Taco]

What's you said about smug superiority complexes?

[EternalGamer]

I am not smug, but I do believe there is a difference between informed and uninformed opinions. Nor do I believe that that difference is just some type of political conspiracy. I do not think that believing such means I have a "superiority" complex.

Dan

Edit: If you are refering more to my tone than the content of what I say, I agree with you. It is something I am aware of and trying to work on. But it is sometimes difficult with people constantly tossing barbs your way.

[Savok]

Many offices in England have banned any sort of pig imagery because it offends Muslims. It's not so much conspiracy as stupidity on a grand scale.

And that's awfully defensive of you, I'm just saying in my experience every school teacher I've ever met has been a raving nutter who only outclass journalists with their ability to comprehend reality.

[Taco]

Well I agree with Savok. Everything you have said is not exactly mind blowing or difficult to grasp. However it is an extremely simplistic and tunnel visioned view of the world. Simply disagreeing with you does not mean one believes in a "political conspiracy".

[EternalGamer]

It is a conspiracy when you just dismiss the arguments without offering any justificaiton for doing so other than the label you attach to them. You automatically assume the arguments are just some type of contocted scheme with made up evidence designed to trick you and deep down you know that your truth is "right" even if the evidence doesn't support it.

As for Savok, this pig comment is exactly the type of thing I was talking about earlier. People that like to take extreme examples and then falsely generalize them and pretend the whole world is that way and that the "minority are running things."

It also seems pretty convenient that everyone that deals with information and education (teachers and journalist) are "nutty." Could it at all be possible that the one labeling them at a such is the one with a world view that doesn't match reality?

Dan

[Savok]

See that's the thing with information brokers, you spend so much time flinging it about showing off you never sit down and think about what it really all means.

[Savok]

Ah, fun exmaple. Recently we had race riots in Sydney, so what does the Sydney Morning Herald do? Publish a map of racism pretty much giving assholes targets. Oh sure it was done years ago just after 9/11 and consisted of two loaded questions, but dammit, it's a map and they're gonna publish it, consquences be damned.

[Taco]

You automatically assume the arguments are just some type of contocted scheme with made up evidence designed to trick you and deep down you know that your truth is "right" even if the evidence doesn't support it.

Oh thanks, I didn't know what a conspiracy was when I wrote that :rolleyes:.

[EternalGamer]

How does one "map" racism?

And what were these questions you are talking about?

Dan

[Savok]

Taco, if a school teacher isn't patronizing you they just aren't teaching. You'll have to forgive Dan for that, it'd be instinct by now.

[Savok]

Well, rather like this (http://www.smh.com.au/media/2005/12/25/1135445487339.html)

[EternalGamer]

Oh thanks, I didn't know what a conspiracy was when I wrote that :rolleyes:.


Sorry, perhaps I should have italicized the word "is" to make the meaning more clear. To give a more specific example, my point was when you look at the history of how proper grammar developed and it's obvious class and racial components and the way one group's language usage was, without justification, labeled the "proper" or educated language--when you can look at all that and still just dismiss the argument, the history, the facts presented infront of you, you are buying into a conspiracy theory of truth.

Dan

[EternalGamer]

Taco, if a school teacher isn't patronizing you they just aren't teaching. You'll have to forgive Dan for that, it'd be instinct by now.


More generic labels.

Dan

[EternalGamer]

That map is very odd but interesting. I would like to see the survey they based it on and how they determined the medium for each level of "tolerance."

[Lord_Don]

See that's the thing with information brokers, you spend so much time flinging it about showing off you never sit down and think about what it really all means.
Seems to me like he's thought about the implications of the information he's got a lot more than people coughing up pat and stereotypical answers.

The other thing about "liberal information brokers" is they're a lot more likely to suck it up and say they're wrong if given credible evidence to suggest they are wrong.

-LD

[Taco]

I hate to break the illusion you get from teaching a bunch of kids, but there are point of views beyond "You either know the facts or you don't". I get your facts, I agree with them and understand them, any 6th grader could. This isn't math, there is not one solution that can be drawn from them. There are many and each with positives and negatives.

More generic labels.


Fact of the matter is you don't see the stereotype because you are the stereotype.

[Savok]

Seems to me like he's thought about the implications of the information he's got a lot more than people coughing up pat and stereotypical answers.

The other thing about "liberal information brokers" is they're a lot more likely to suck it up and say they're wrong if given credible evidence to suggest they are wrong.

-LD
Talking about Dan Rather are we? You know journalists are supposed to least try to check the validity of the information.

And have you been watching FOX? You'll find the whole media to be fucked, mostly because it's being treated as a business rather then journalism now.

And the survey http://www.bees.unsw.edu.au/school/staff/dunn/racismsurvey.html

[Kirath42]

Taco, if a school teacher isn't patronizing you they just aren't teaching. You'll have to forgive Dan for that, it'd be instinct by now.

It seems to me that he hasn't taken a patronizing tone at all. In fact, he's been repsonding with extreme restraint to some pretty low flung personal attacks.

I will admit that it's possible he's seeing you as someone people who needs to be taught, since you seem to defend your views by attacking his profession instead of addressing the issues you're discussing.

Were you savaged by a big nasty mean liberal teacher when you were a kid?

[Chimpbot]

You guys have gotten entirely away from the original topic and point of this discussion.

A Native American group has a problem with GUN; this problem is, ultimately, unfounded when one plays through the entirety of the game and witnesses the full story; if anything, Native Americans are portrayed in a far better light than the white male "Americans", who are more savage than the "savages".
I do agree that Native Americans are shit on left and right; they were never treated fairly, and they still aren't to this day. Just because this one complaint is, for the most part, unfounded does not mean that all complaints by minority groups are.

Cut the crap, guys. Dan's pretty much right on most points.

[Taco]

Speaking in overly general terms and pointing out interesting yet irrelevant facts does not make you right. If you think it does then the public school system has indoctrinated you well.

[bean19]

Ebonics is and was developed from slang. If there are rules now, then it's just developed slang.

Teaching ebonics was turned down because it poorly prepares people who study it to communicate in a way that will allow people to find work in many fields.

If taken as a second language course, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but standard English is the international language used for trade and science.

Most other countries teach their native tongue, English, and then a choice of any other languages people might choose to learn, because learning English is profitable to nations that wish to grow their economies.

If we wanted to teach ebonics as a native tongue, then English as the standard language needed to communicate effectively to get work, then I wouldn't have a problem with ebonics.

What I would have an issue with is crippling black children's ability to suceed outside black culture by only teaching them ebonics, or teaching it to them and not giving equal time to standard English. . . the problem that arises here is that you must skimp on some other subject to find extra time to teach these children a dialect that has no real use outside their culture.

[sinclair122]

asian people spreak gooda engrish too, why no one say asian engrish is valid as you ebonics? I asian, I sray no fair!

[EternalGamer]

I agree with almost all of what you are saying, bean. But there is one other benefit to at least bringing up the subject of ebonics in the class room. Kids from minority backgrounds tend to feel very low self esteem about their language abilities just because their dialect doesn't match the norm. Teaching them (perhaps briefly) about these different dialects might help them better to understand the difference between the written standard and their own variation of language. I know it has been sucessfully done in a number of schools where they teach them to identify what type of dialect a sentence is written in.

By allowing them to recognize their own variation, they become more conscious of how they need to adapt it to fit the written standarded needed to suceed. This strategy is also widely used on college campuses. The reason kids in college are required to take a foreign language is not because 1 or 2 years of that language will make them fluent, it is because it actually improves their own native language usage because they have to learn the grammar of the foreign language and have a point of compairson to understand the variations and become more conscious of them.

Dan

EDIT: I realize we are very far off topic here. But the thread conversation was pretty much buttoned up on the first page.

[sinclair122]

Come on, when are we going to stop babying kids. I think it's pretty well established as to what skills are "necessary" to "succeed" in this society. While I do agree that it is necessary to adjust education programs for kids from diverse ethnic backgrounds, the underlying point is for them to learn "standard" english. The same argument can be made of different dialects w/in America itself, i.e. Midwestern english is the most neutral and is the "norm," as can be seen and heard spoken by newscasters on national networks. Why don't we bring southern or new england dialects to the forefront? Are they not just as valid as ebonics in your opinion?

[EternalGamer]

Come on, when are we going to stop babying kids. I think it's pretty well established as to what skills are "necessary" to "succeed" in this society. While I do agree that it is necessary to adjust education programs for kids from diverse ethnic backgrounds, the underlying point is for them to learn "standard" english. The same argument can be made of different dialects w/in America itself, i.e. Midwestern english is the most neutral and is the "norm," as can be seen and heard spoken by newscasters on national networks. Why don't we bring southern or new england dialects to the forefront? Are they not just as valid as ebonics in your opinion?

They are all valid. I was just using ebonics as an example and it is probably one of the best examples considering it is a dialect that is very common and also one of the ones that is furthest from the written standard. We agree on what the goal is. Whether or not it is a morally justifiable to enforce this standard, it is a reality that we still have to prepare kids for. But the idea that we need to stop "coddling" kids or that kids need to "toughen" up is just empty rhetoric that gets nobody anywhere. It might be true that some of these kids lack work ethic, and that that might come from the environment they grow up in (I would argue that the unstable economic environment itself creates a viscious cycle but that's another conversation). However, we aren't going to help them gain it by just telling them to "tough up." There needs to be new strategies put into play that attempt to do something about the discrepancies.

Dan

[sinclair122]

This discussion is not going to be productive unless you suggest an alternative. Saying that there is a problem without providing a solution is slightly more useful than not saying anything. "But the idea that we need to stop "coddling" kids or that kids need to "toughen" up is just empty rhetoric that gets nobody anywhere." I disagree with this statement. I don't think it's empty rhetoric, it's just a fact of life. Our education system needs to stop praising mediocrity and trying to be "fair" to everyone, (e.g. the "no child left behind" program) and actually reward achievement.

[EternalGamer]

I did provide a potential strategy. See post #97, which I believe was the one you were responding to when you said we need to stop babying them.

Dan

[didragondi]

I agree with almost all of what you are saying, bean. But there is one other benefit to at least bringing up the subject of ebonics in the class room. Kids from minority backgrounds tend to feel very low self esteem about their language abilities just because their dialect doesn't match the norm. Teaching them (perhaps briefly) about these different dialects might help them better to understand the difference between the written standard and their own variation of language. I know it has been sucessfully done in a number of schools where they teach them to identify what type of dialect a sentence is written in.


I adress this here, and I think rather than babying them or whatever, requiring them to recognize the standard they are compared against is important. See, the child I discussed below is a pretty bright young man, but as long as he calls something 'mines', then large sgements of the population will prejudge him. It is easy to say that that is wrong, but I am encouraging the child to be realistic and understand that even if ebonics is a seperate dialect of english with its own patterns of usage, you do not want to utilize it in an interview situation.

In reference to ebonics versus 'proper' english, eternal gamer, I have a similar profession to a teacher and work as a social worker/counselor, and I will tell you what I told an african american adolescent that I worked with: Even though we might understand what he means when he says 'that is mines' and 'axe a question', that in order to adapt himself to his best possible chance of success, he needs to learn to speak/write 'proper' english because even if ebonics is a language of itself, certain job interviewers and college entrance interviewers will judge you unacceptable if you do not demonstrate an ability to communicate in 'proper' english. RIght or wrong, that is reality and youdo children a diservice to let them believe that your unconditional positive regard means no one will judge them.

[OUX]

If the Indians wanted to be respected they should have fought harder.

[sinclair122]

I did provide a potential strategy. See post #97, which I believe was the one you were responding to when you said we need to stop babying them.

Dan


I'm sorry, you're right, I totally glossed over that; since that is what I termed as "babying." While I do see how that could help, the desire to change still resides in the individual. I guess I'm pretty unqualified to argue against your point, since I basically lack the social conscience to care; I only have personal experience to back my standpoint.

[didragondi]

eternal gamer, looking at the thread I think we are saying almost the same thing; its just after working with more troubled youth, it makes me nervous if I hear discussion appearing to make allowances for them rather than challenging them. Kids can respond to challenges well, and we do them no favors to sheild them from every judgement possible while in school, while real life following school has its own rules of operation.

[Lord_Don]

If the Indians wanted to be respected they should have fought harder.
Yeah, because fighting against a plague when you have no background or science regarding microbiology is easy.

-LD

[Savok]

eternal gamer, looking at the thread I think we are saying almost the same thing; its just after working with more troubled youth, it makes me nervous if I hear discussion appearing to make allowances for them rather than challenging them. Kids can respond to challenges well, and we do them no favors to sheild them from every judgement possible while in school, while real life following school has its own rules of operation.
A social worker that gets it? My god hell just froze over. Of course the fact you can no longer fail at school is another debate, I'll just say that I've learnt more outside the education system then I ever did in it.

Also can you guys start teaching stereotypical Southern culture in schools? We should seriously consider wasting more time teaching them to say "y'all".

And some folk wonder why the education systems of the western world are conisdered a joke...

[Thenetcase]

ok, if I can write a book about how people traded black people, called them "niggers" and made slaves out of them, because I love history, why can't there be a game about it? Geez.

[51|RandoM]

I'm not sure where that line is, but the facts that every president of our country has been white, male and Christian, and at least 80% of our congressman are the same, that our only recognized religious holidays are Christian in origin, and how white English is the written standard imposed on everybody, I would say we are pretty damn far from the point where the minority is dictating to the majority. Unless, that is, you are talking about the economic minority. In that case, you are 100% dead on.

Dan

Those holidays aren't christian in origin, fyi. Most of them are just co-opted pagan holidays.

[51|RandoM]

If the Indians wanted to be respected they should have fought harder.


Fighting harder isn't the solution vs. superior numbers, superior weapons, and oh yeah, small pox.

[EternalGamer]

And some folk wonder why the education systems of the western world are conisdered a joke...

It's considered a joke because people are compairing apples and oranges. In most European countries there is a division of kids based upon aptitude at an earlier age than High School. The kids that don't do so well academically end up going into a trade school type program. So it's only the kids that academically gifted that are tested and compaired to our general population kids. We score worse because we are essentially compairing their honor students against our entire student body. But when certain people start raving about the current quality of education they just ignore all of this.

School overall are much better today than they were say in the 50's. The only difference is that now everybody is getting an education, whereas before there was a portion of the population (mainly made up of blacks and other minorities) that was made invisible and segregated out of the system. I teach at a college and I can definitely tell you that there are a lot of freshman that have many problems with basic reading and writing skills. Is this because education is worse? No, it's because these kids are actually getting a chance to go to college today, whereas in the past they would have never had that opportunity. The traditional college student, well informed and gifted, is still in the college classroom. She just has company now. I suppose some people would call that "lowering the standard" but I call it trying to fix the huge economic and social gap by giving them opportunities to get out of the viscious cycle. I am very demanding in my classroom, but I also try not to get frustrated with what they don't know how to do something. You have to meet them where they are. Elistist comments of the social darwinism type do nothing to help anybody. I'm not interested in telling them to "suck it up" nearly as much as I am in attempting to "help them up."


Dan

[EternalGamer]

Those holidays aren't christian in origin, fyi. Most of them are just co-opted pagan holidays.


Yeah, I'm aware of this. It was a clumsy description, but you know what I mean. They are all currently percieved as "Christian" hollidays.

Dan

[Savok]

You bitch about labels but then you just keep playing into that role perfectly. Some people are stupid, they will always be stupid, should we help these people? Yes, should we cripple everyone else's development for them? Fuck no.

I'm talking about statistics I'm talking about what's being taught, we did TEN WEEKS on the Titantic in history, can you even comprehend just how insane that is? We're getting fluff so the stupid kids don't feel so stupid.

If you don't know the basics of written English you have no business being anywhere NEAR a college (unless it's an exchange student thing).

[Savok]

Oh and it's a Christian fucking country, that's why there are Christian holidays, let us have our culture in our own damn countries.

[OUX]

I was talking about in game

[EternalGamer]

I'm talking about statistics I'm talking about what's being taught, we did TEN WEEKS on the Titantic in history, can you even comprehend just how insane that is? We're getting fluff so the stupid kids don't feel so stupid.


You spent ten weeks on the Titanic? In a high school history class? That sounds like a pretty bad hyperbole, but even if it is not, I am 100% that that does not represent the state of the average history class in the U.S. today.

Dan

[EternalGamer]

Oh and it's a Christian fucking country, that's why there are Christian holidays, let us have our culture in our own damn countries.

I never said anyone should be forbidden from celebrating these religions. My only point was that Christian traditions are the cultural norm. I was only using that example as part of a rebuttal to the absurd notion that "minorities are taking over" our country.

Dan

[Savok]

That is not hyperbole, I assure you, and yes it was high school, about 3 years in. We did four things, one each term, Titantic, Vikings (which I'll go into if you want), Romans (not Rome, but Romans, what booze they drank and so on, I'm serious) and something else I've blocked from my memory because it was too awful.

[Savok]

I never said anyone should be forbidden from celebrating these religions. My only point was that Christian traditions are the cultural norm. I was only using that example as part of a rebuttal to the absurd notion that "minorities are taking over" our country.

Dan
Here in Australia they've banned any religious Christmas songs in many places in case it offends Muslims and other cultures.

[EternalGamer]

You mean as in public schools? I sure can't find anything about this using Google. Have a link?

Dan

[DigiWiz]

"My only point was that Christian traditions are the cultural norm"

No, based on pure population, whatever the Chinese and Indians decide is the norm.

[mister_slim]

And that's awfully defensive of you, I'm just saying in my experience every school teacher I've ever met has been a raving nutter who only outclass journalists with their ability to comprehend reality.
Are you trying to say journalists and teachers are very perceptive?

[mister_slim]

"My only point was that Christian traditions are the cultural norm"

No, based on pure population, whatever the Chinese and Indians decide is the norm.
In the US?

[EternalGamer]

"My only point was that Christian traditions are the cultural norm"

No, based on pure population, whatever the Chinese and Indians decide is the norm.

Yeah, well. Since the whole conversation was about American (or at least Western) politics, I sort of worked under the assumption that that was the region of the world we were talking about.

Dan

[Laughing_Penguin]

Actually many linguist argue that a lot of the characteristics of ebonics came from a French and English creole (such as the use of the double negative, which is used in french--je ne parle pas francias). Ebonics is not new, it's a fairly old language and the rules haven't changed much since their original use by the first blacks that were brought to the United States through slavery. (Actually, some argue that it goes back earlier and is based on an African creole used to communicate and trade with Europeans much earlier but that's another discussion.)



This is quite true. In fact, a noted linguist I just made up wrote an insightful article where the popular term "Off the chain" is not, in fact, slang, but actually a reference to the above mentioned period of slavery. When a slave was released from servitude, his chains were removed, which was naturally seen as a very good thing to the person involved. To this day, something seen as being exceptionally good is therefore referred to as being "Off the chain".

Other recent studies have linked today's popular internet speak as having it's roots in pre-European South American cultures. Recent translations indicate that the Incan Empire was actually "pwn3d" by the invading Spaniards, who were considerably more "l33t". It is theorized that the inclusion of numbers in with the European letters is a result of the Incans' imprecise grasp of the Latin-based alphabets.

Historical fact? Sarcasm? You decide.. potentially to be taught in your school district in the near future.

[EternalGamer]

Not that you care with your bombastic satire, but I was referring to the GRAMMAR of Ebonics. The lexicon (slang terms included) certainly have adapted (although you would be surprised how many of them are just recycled back into use). It seems that you would rather believe that blacks just made up their own language in the last 10 years because they suddenly decided to be "different" or linguistically lazy, but that it is simply not true.

Dan

[Savok]

Been digging around, can't find the link to the (rather old) story, so here's an even sillier one from way back that's still going to this day in qute a few preschools.

http://www.education.netpresence.biz/pagedetail.asp?intpageid=1005&strsection=students&intsectionid=0

[muddi900]

cqfey9rirja

[Mav]

Seriously, you had to necro a 6 year old thread?

Where's lockwood with an epic face palm photo when we need one.

[BeardedSonOfNel]

Holy hell dude. Not only did you necro this, you provided a broken youtube link too!

[Orphiuchus]

This does get me thinking, I had a lot to say about the release of Madden 05 that I never got around to posting... It seems like the perfect time!


Seriously though, threads should lock after like 6 months of inactivity. Maybe you could do some sort of "Soft-lock", where postings have to be approved by an administrator?

[Meusli]

Wow, flash back with the names there.