Rage Runs Faster on Xbox 360

[Evil Avatar]

http://evilavatar.com/images/thumbs/rage_logo.jpg

Computer & Video Games (by way of Edge Magazine) is reporting (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=220530) that id Software's upcoming shooter, Rage is running at nearly triple the performance on the Xbox 360 or PC vs. the Playstation 3.

The Xbox 360 and PC versions of id's Rage sport higher framerates than the PlayStation 3 version, the latest issue of Edge magazine reveals.

In a ten-page reveal in its latest issue, Edge writes that the Xbox 360 version of Rage - which uses id's new Tech 5 engine - matches the 60fps framerate of the PC version, while PS3 runs at just "20-30fps".

It's not mentioned whether the PS3 framerate will be addressed by the game's eventual release.

[MrSatan]

Edge is one of the worst mags out there, I would certainly take this with a grain of Salt. I also have a hard time believing this, as I remember reading an article about how they had to scale down textures to fit on the 360.

[KidNicarus]

Why is this news? Isn't this game over a year away? I highly doubt it'll ship like that.

[Evil Avatar]

Edge is one of the worst mags out there, I would certainly take this with a grain of Salt. I also have a hard time believing this, as I remember reading an article about how they had to scale down textures to fit on the 360.

Read the article, that is a quote from John Carmack.

[Samstag]

So is the news that Carmack sucks at PS3 porting, or that he's planning on phoning it in?

[OmegaVader]

Surprise surprise, a game runs better on easier to program for architecture than the hopelessly obtuse PS3. What a shocker.

[Blade]

They'll figure something out. There's no way the PS3 version will be a complete mess.

[ElfShotTheFood]

That sound you hear is TrollCakes firing up the spin machine.

[Skytram]

Funny thing is - I remember when id was saying that their revolutionary new engine was pretty much platform-independent.

From a Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23580) article:

"The company first announced id Tech 5 in 2007, and claims it can seamlessly support multiple platforms -- with "90 percent" of game code working across PC, Mac, Xbox 360, and PlayStation 3."

I yearn for the days of olden times (the glorious nineties) when id would release revolutionary titles on a regular basis. They have gone ahead and sold the company in order to grow, which is fine, but I would think that they would have at least waited to get Rage out there and earn some solid revenue and give independent growth a better shot.

Oh well, I'm still holding out and hoping for the best from Rage and "Doom 4". At least they are doing an original idea.

[shadow763]

I thought Carmack was so smart. Way to fall behind.

Surprise surprise, a game runs better on easier to program for architecture than the hopelessly obtuse PS3. What a shocker.

Hey look at this...its an original comment. I applaud you.

Let me see, I can look at two games right off the bat...Killzone 2 and Uncharted 1 or 2 and see games that look better then anything on the 360. So guess what, if you have a clue you can make stuff look amazing.

[gzsfrk]

Probably a similiar situation to Valve and the Orange Box release. PS3 version sucked because inadequate resources were put into porting it well. Now don't get me wrong--nothing tickles me more than hearing "PS3 performance sux compared to teh 360", especially given all the smack talk Sony did early on in this console cycle. However, the fact remains that, overall, the two consoles are very similiar in power potential, and any discrepancies between ports of the same title on either console are all but certainly the result of either a lack of effort or expertise.

[dirtbag]

I thought Carmack was so smart. Way to fall behind.

I think this may be a way for him to take a back-handed swipe at the PS3 architecture and coding difficulties, more than anything else. I'm sure it's easier to go from PC -> 360 than to take that extra step to the PS3, so it's expected for it to be behind during the earlier stages of the development process.

Now, if it ships like that, they may as well have clipped the PS3 completely, and use that staff to further refine the PC and 360 versions.

[NuK]

man, i think Carmack likes to flame-bait...

[DarkDaY]

So is the news that Carmack sucks at PS3 porting, or that he's planning on phoning it in?

hmm, ya, cause we all know Carmack is a shitty programmer.......:rolleyes:
As for trouble with size, I thought that was due to storage, Ie, multiple disks, not textures.

[DarkDaY]

That sound you hear is TrollCakes firing up the spin machine.

lol, not sure why that made me laugh...and its TEECAKES MAN. Get it right.
Don't knock the Cake. His posts are up there with the best of them.

[Ebon Deth]

Bu, bu, but "more potential!!"

[Ebon Deth]

An, an, and blu-ray MAKES GAMES BETTER!!

[Sarconix]

They probably won't ship with such a disparity. If they do, it will be because they decided PC/360 were more important or cost-effective to optimize than PS3, and they are certainly allowed to make that decision. It won't be because PS3 "can't" handle it.

[Reanimated]

"The PS3 lags a little bit behind in terms of getting the performance out of it," John Carmack told Edge. "The rasteriser is just a little bit slower - no two ways about that."

"The RSX is slower than what we have in the 360. The CPU is about the same, but the 360 makes it easier to split things off, and that's what a lot of the work has been, splitting it all into jobs on the PS3," he said.


It's not exactly breaking news that the ps3 lags behind the 360 in terms of performance.

[Mike Jones]

It's not exactly breaking news that the ps3 lags behind the 360 in terms of performance.

But it has more headroom....;)

[lost]

Ugh.

I see multi-platform games left and right that look great, have technical ambition and work equally well on both platforms. Carmack is just making himself look out of touch. He has achieved a lot but id hasn't seemed cutting edge for several years now. Remember mega-textures? Woop woop.

Infinity Ward, Rockstar, Criterion and even the 360-favoring Epic, along with the majority, can pull off cross-platform games. This is an issue with their tech and with id and not an issue of 360 vs. PS3. He is just flame-baiting.

[E Huntington]

Can't we just let these go and agree the consoles are fairly even? I'm sick of the back and forth. Either let the whole console power debate die or go buy a PC.

[Skytram]

Can't we just let these go and agree the consoles are fairly even? I'm sick of the back and forth. Either let the whole console power debate die or go buy a PC.

Or buy a Mac. *runs for cover*

[RMan]

A game runs better on the platform it was developed on or for before it's released? What a shocker.
Can't we just let these go and agree the consoles are fairly even? I'm sick of the back and forth.
NEVER!! Yea, most people know they're pretty similar, and most people don't care about this, but it's an enthusiast website, so what most people want or care about is generally not in line with the mindset of those discussing it.

[InfiniteAmmo]

They'll figure something out. There's no way the PS3 version will be a complete mess.

Yeah, it's not like when EA brought over The Orange Box.

Oh, wait...

[saulob]

I thought Carmack was so smart. Way to fall behind.



Hey look at this...its an original comment. I applaud you.

Let me see, I can look at two games right off the bat...Killzone 2 and Uncharted 1 or 2 and see games that look better then anything on the 360. So guess what, if you have a clue you can make stuff look amazing.

Two games? I read that you said three... strange :rolleyes:

[drakkarim]

Read the article, that is a quote from John Carmack.

so at best this is saying they don't know how to program for the ps3.

still, like was said, this game is still long way from being ready, so who knows what will come out in the end.

in any case, i'd take the pc version at high rez over the 360's 720p version of this.

[dub3000]

from the linked page...

"Lazy developers deserve little of my time and patience."

carmack (with a few others e.g. michael abrash) is pretty much singlehandedly responsible for 3d gaming happening when it did. anyone who's seen his code or read any of his technical writing would know the dude isn't lazy, he's a pioneer.

if he can't get it running fast, it's probably not possible to do what he's trying to do fast. that doesn't mean the ps3 can't do stuff fast, it just means it probably can't do *those particular things* quickly.

[TheBot]

Probably because it's toned down for the Xbox, can be toned up and down for the PC, and is set at a certain res for the PS3.

I think he's already said that programming for the PS3 is a pain in the ass anyway. Meh, whatever, I wouldn't play it on the PS3 anyhow, my PC can run it better than both old generation consoles :P

[Nachokoolaid]

Not trying to add fuel to the fire, but I see Killzone 2 and Uncharted mentioned above as "games that look better on the PS3."

But since those games aren't even on the 360, isn't that an unfair comparison?

Serious question here, has a game that's appeared on both consoles EVER looked better on the PS3? All I ever hear about is how it's always better on the 360.

[Scramble]

Well, we all know how much Carmack likes to code. I'm sure as dev for PC and 360 slows down, he'll probably figure out some super sick technique to the all the SPU's working on the PS3. This is more like a progress report, Not how it will be.

[dub3000]

i think there are a few which have nicer lighting models or different filter modes on ps3.

in simple terms, the ps3's video card has significantly less grunt than the xb360's video card. but the ps3 cpu is better at particular kinds of bulk math (e.g. video decompression, some kinds of geometry work, signal processing, physics and weather effects) but not as good at just running regular logic/AI type code.

the original ps3 design would have had one of the two cells it was meant to ship with cleaning up data before it got to the video card so it wouldn't have to have done as much work. but they gutted it for cost reasons. i haven't developed for the ps3 but the stuff i've read about it (e.g. round-robin allocation of code to cell co-processors, omg) strikes me as incredibly painful to work with and i know people who've worked (note:past tense) on big ps3 projects and it just sounds like a total dog to get any kind of serious performance out of it at all on regular code.

[the soUL TRAder]

Efficiency beats raw power when framerates are concerned, especially with branchy code.

Nothing new here, including the platform apologists.

[DeathtollWRX]

It was almost as if this guy was paid off by Microsoft to say that.

Of course this is not really new since many of the cross platform titles have been a bit smoother on the xbox but who really cares? Both systems have been out so long that I feel that both experiences should always be the same.

HEre is the true question.

PC version for graphics? (4890 Radeon) or Xbox version for the Achievements (I know i'm petty)

[earthworm48]

I think Edge is one of the best mags around. Fuck knows what else you reckon is better.

[Evil Avatar]

HEre is the true question.

PC version for graphics? (4890 Radeon) or Xbox version for the Achievements (I know i'm petty)

Or PS3 version for one-disc ease. The PC version will also be multiple DVD's like the 360 version.

I know it is silly, but I still lean toward the 360 due to the achievements even though I have a monster PC. It is the whole carrot and the stick thing.

[lost]

I think Edge is one of the best mags around. Fuck knows what else you reckon is better.

gamesTM and almost anything else. They court controversy like it tastes of jelly beans.

[Kleeze]

They updated the news story with further details:


Everything is designed as a 60 hertz game. We expect this to be 60 hertz on every supported platform. The work remaining is getting it locked so there’s never a dropped frame or a tear, but we’re confident that we’re going to get that.

Seems like a non-story to me really. So the game doesn't run as smoothly on one platform as it does on another a year or so before release? Shocking.

[DarkDaY]

They updated the news story with further details:



Seems like a non-story to me really. So the game doesn't run as smoothly on one platform as it does on another a year or so before release? Shocking.

Logic, nice. Also good 4th post. Though most won't like it as it does little to fan the flames.

[caenelgren]

Seems to be just sensationalism at its best (or worst).

Pretty sure it's "mission completed" for Edge, since it probably got them a good number of hits =p

[brandonjclark]

It was almost as if this guy was paid off by Microsoft to say that.

Of course this is not really new since many of the cross platform titles have been a bit smoother on the xbox but who really cares? Both systems have been out so long that I feel that both experiences should always be the same.

HEre is the true question.

PC version for graphics? (4890 Radeon) or Xbox version for the Achievements (I know i'm petty)


Oh, so this won't be a GFWL release, I guess. Otherwise there would be achievements built in, right?

[Demo_Boy]

I think its a lame hits grab by edge. No $h17 the game runs slower on the platform farthest from the native development platform.

John can gripe about how hard it is to code for the PS3, but I bet he secretly relishes the challenge.

[JawaSnack]

Let's all just calm down we're all "frightened and horny" but the games a good year away from release and I'm sure Carmack will have it running just fine on the PS3 before it's done.

[the soUL TRAder]

They court controversy like it tastes of jelly beans.

Is this jealousy?
Because it's a bit ironic for you to criticize a gaming portal for courting controversy, especially where the console wars are concerned.

At least this is a real quote from a qualified developer rather than some empty opinion from a PR asshat.

[Thanatosis]

I never ran them side by side, but I have re-bought and re-rented a number of the games that I used to play on my 360 for my PS3 and the differences haven't been noticeable. Bad Company looks slightly better (might just be in my head) and Fallout 3 seems to run much more smoothly, but it could all just be me. IMO, there is no console war- each system serves a different style of gamer. Again, that's probably just me.

[lost]

Is this jealousy?
Because it's a bit ironic for you to criticize a gaming portal for courting controversy, especially where the console wars are concerned.

At least this is a real quote from a qualified developer rather than some empty opinion from a PR asshat.

Edge isn't a gaming portal. It's a print publication and it is this print publication I spoke out against. My issue lies with it as a whole rather than this story. If you choose to drag the 'console wars', as you see them, into that then on you go.

They hand out whichever review score, preview comment or feature article that will cause the most fuss because 'Edge said it'.

As for jealousy? I'm not quite sure what there is to be jealous about.

[TeeCakes]

I got a good laugh out of this entire thread. Thanks guys! :D

[the soUL TRAder]

As for jealousy? I'm not quite sure what there is to be jealous about.

Your attempt to distract aside, you might be jealous that another gaming portal (medium to get info on gaming) is doing a better job courting controversy than you are. ;)

Or maybe this controversy offends your personal opinions?

My point still stands: this is info on technical abilities of two platforms coming from someone who has proven himself as a expert in the technical side of making games, if this comparison between the two is somehow "out of touch" how can you justify threads like these as relevant?
PS3 to Surpass 360 Sales by 2015 (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89187) from Pachter or Agent the next GTA? (http:/lwww.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87373) from some R* PR clown.

I don't mind an agenda, since I can see right threw them, but condemning someone else for an agenda you have as well is just hypocritical.
And I HATE hypocrites!

[the soUL TRAder]

I got a good laugh out of this entire thread. Thanks guys! :D

Wow, the 360s advantage on this is so uncontrovertible, Cakey can't even pull a defense out of his arse!

[lost]

Your attempt to distract aside, you might be jealous that another gaming portal (medium to get info on gaming) is doing a better job courting controversy than you are. ;)

Or maybe this controversy offends your personal opinions?

My point still stands: this is info on technical abilities of two platforms coming from someone who has proven himself as a expert in the technical side of making games, if this comparison between the two is somehow "out of touch" how can you justify threads like these as relevant?
PS3 to Surpass 360 Sales by 2015 (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89187) from Pachter or Agent the next GTA? (http:/lwww.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87373) from some R* PR clown.

I don't mind an agenda, since I can see right threw them, but condemning someone else for an agenda you have as well is just hypocritical.
And I HATE hypocrites!

Because EvAv is in the same league as Edge? An independent news aggregate compared to a commercial print mag?

In case you hadn't noticed we post news as seen at other locations which is clearly interesting to gamers. It doesn't mean I, or any other mod, has to agree or support the message of that story and it's the message that makes the headline.

Your examples are good. My tag comment for each...

PS3 2015 - "I'll place a bet on this not happening unless Microsoft has brought out a new console."
Agent Next GTA - "I'm not sure the spy thing will be as popular as the violent criminal thing. Should still be a great title though."

...I'm totally supporting the views expressed in the story huh? My hypocrisy is out of controooool.

Move along.

P.S. I loved your twisted use of 'out of touch'. Classy!

[Venkman]

Some of you take this shit WAY too seriously.

[the soUL TRAder]

Because EvAv is in the same league as Edge?
Actually, for gaming news, I look at EvAv as being in a better league than any print mag. Which is why we should encourage discourse about quailified opinions rather than get mired in PR fluff and fanbois flaimbait.

...I'm totally supporting the views expressed in the story huh? My hypocrisy is out of controooool.

Even though I have to give you credit on keeping your opinion muted during your news posts, we all know from your comments were your loyalties stand.
But the hypocracy is in calling those threads "news" while accusing Edge of sensationalism with a respected developers comments about hands-on experience.

P.S. I loved your twisted use of 'out of touch'. Classy!

Earlier in this thread:
Carmack is just making himself look out of touch.

Not even sure how I twisted it, but at least I didn't out right unfairly misuse it.

[gzsfrk]

Which is why we should encourage discourse about quailified opinions rather than get mired in PR fluff and fanbois flaimbait.

But... the PR fluff, fanboi discourse, and flamebait are the main reasons I come to this site. It's like that ragged old sweatshirt you wear on Saturdays--it's all just so darned comfortable. :)

[the soUL TRAder]

But... the PR fluff, fanboi discourse, and flamebait are the main reasons I come to this site. It's like that ragged old sweatshirt you wear on Saturdays--it's all just so darned comfortable. :)

OK, you're right, let me re-phrase since I like the fluff as well:

Let's not dismiss news simply because it's from a source most can agree knows what they're talking about. :D

[lost]

Actually, for gaming news, I look at EvAv as being in a better league than any print mag. Which is why we should encourage discourse about quailified opinions rather than get mired in PR fluff and fanbois flaimbait.


But they aren't nearly the same thing are they? EvAv posts things from other locations, correct? Therefore our tag comments represent our own opinions, if we have them, about a story. PR fluff? Fanboi flamebait? What relevency do these things have here?


Even though I have to give you credit on keeping your opinion muted during your news posts, we all know from your comments were your loyalties stand.
But the hypocracy is in calling those threads "news" while accusing Edge of sensationalism with a respected developers comments about hands-on experience.


I have no loyalty - right now I play my 360 95% of the time, that's just how it is. I didn't accuse Edge of sensationalizing - I accused them, and I have repeated this, that they court controversy as a whole. My comment against them wasn't even in reply to a comment about this story.

You have now completely changed your stance on this matter having been shown to be wrong. I was originally a hypocrite for supposedly courting controversy while criticizing Edge for the practice.


Not even sure how I twisted it, but at least I didn't out right unfairly misuse it.

That comment, if you choose to read it rather than cherry pick for your own means, was in relation to id's ability to produce a multi-platform game that runs equally well on it's varied platforms. It had nothing to do with his comparison of the two consoles - you decided to twist it into that.

[the soUL TRAder]

My comment against them wasn't even in reply to a comment about this story.

Ooops, my bad, I didn't realize you weren't commenting about the thread you posted your comment in. Carry on.

But, no, my critisicm has remained constant: it's hypocritical to condemn Edge for sensationalizing when EvAv does the same, including many of your posts, reguardless if you think they have a higher standard to maintain.

Although I want to make it clear, I don't want it to change, because I do love the sensationalism!

[lost]

Hah. Good stuff buddy. See you next time.

[RMan]

Let's not dismiss news simply because it's from a source most can agree knows what they're talking about. :D
If you read the story, it basically says 'unfinished game is less finished on PS3, dev says it should be finished when released'. Without blowing things WAY out of proportion or making assumptions, there's little to discuss. I don't think fanboys on one side dismissing the comments are any worse than the fanboys on the other side thinking they really mean something.

[Grumsh]

Or PS3 version for one-disc ease. The PC version will also be multiple DVD's like the 360 version.

I know it is silly, but I still lean toward the 360 due to the achievements even though I have a monster PC. It is the whole carrot and the stick thing.

The whole achievement whoring is a fun meta-game that has even seduced me into playing a game longer than I really should have.

[the soUL TRAder]

I don't think fanboys on one side dismissing the comments are any worse than the fanboys on the other side thinking they really mean something.

Well, even though that's debatable just in the fact that this is futher evidence to something that anybody who is objective already accepts: the 360 is easier to develope for since it's design is based on efficiency rather than power, I wasn't arguing with what the platformists were saying, however.

I disagree with the people trying to minimize the validity of the messengers just to distract attention from the message.

Of course the real problem is the people who assume that the end performance on any plarform will be markedly different than the others, which is probably not gonna happen.
And yet it does validate all the developers who are belly aching that profibility on PS3 games sucks compared to the comp.

[RMan]

Well, even though that's debatable just in the fact that this is futher evidence to something that anybody who is objective already accepts: the 360 is easier to develope for since it's design is based on efficiency rather than power, I wasn't arguing with what the platformists were saying, however.
Disregarding your efficiency vs. power assumption, yea, you're right about the general consensus. Of course, 1000 is greater than 999, but not so much that it's worth discussing.

[TeeCakes]

Wow, the 360s advantage on this is so uncontrovertible, Cakey can't even pull a defense out of his arse!

Hilarious! Only the truly insecure fanboy gamer needs some non-story like this to make him feel "proud" about his console of choice!

Thank you for making me LOL :D:D:D

[the soUL TRAder]

..... non-story like this......

Yeah, I know for you the constant reminder that Sony totally screwed the pooch on the PS3 design is a non story, that's what you get for drinking the water from D'Nile, flavored with a little Kutagari man-juice ;).

Of course for me, it's the ONLY story because it's exactly what I said would happen way back in summer '05.

I also said the PS3 wouldn't be worth a purchase till the fall of '09/ winter '10 and I was right on that one. Even you agree since you haven't picked yours up yet.

[the soUL TRAder]

Of course, 1000 is greater than 999, but not so much that it's worth discussing.

And yet the 360 is slightly better than the PS3, but we seem to discuss their differences ad nauseum, so maybe for some this is worth discussing.

Especially since I've heard from other quailified developers that the developement resource cost is 20% more on the PS3, so that would be more like 1000 is greater than 800. Maybe you wouldn't mind giving me 20% of your next paycheck, or is that difference worth it?

[RMan]

And yet the 360 is slightly better than the PS3, but we seem to discuss their differences ad nauseum, so maybe for some this is worth discussing.
Yea, people also watch Nascar too :).
Especially since I've heard from other quailified developers that the developement resource cost is 20% more on the PS3, so that would be more like 1000 is greater than 800. Maybe you wouldn't mind giving me 20% of your next paycheck, or is that difference worth it?
Meh, another case of wishful thinking and tunnel-vision. I'd believe a programmer who says he, perhaps even his team, had to spend an extra 20% overall development developing for the PS3. However, that's one project, and almost assuredly dismisses the time spent getting it working on their primary platform, in the case of id the PC/360 (after all, that's free, right?). Also, if they have to do that on every project, they're idiots, the porting hurdles should only happen once. Then there's the assumption that that's all the development, no, the vast majority of the game's development is not programming. This is a matter of you looking at a small portion of the worst cases, and projecting that across everything, that's what fanboys do, but I do not, and will not buy it, no sale pal.

[the soUL TRAder]

.....no sale pal.

Is that like saying if you have a friend that lives 8 miles away and other that lives 10 miles away and after you've gone to both of them once, you should now be able to get to both in the same amount of time?

[RMan]

Is that like saying if you have a friend that lives 8 miles away and other that lives 10 miles away and after you've gone to both of them once, you should now be able to get to both in the same amount of time?
Thanks for demonstrating your lack of understanding of software development by comparing it to linear travel. And to answer your simple question simply, as if the analogy was apt, yes, you'd be able to get there in the same amount of time, and that time is 0. Software doesn't destroy itself after you ship a product using it.

[donkeydrop]

Let's put it another way; on a platform (PC) that is 10x more powerful than either the 360 or PS3 it's only running at a barely acceptable 60 fps. Does this mean the 360 is as powerful as a PC ???????

[the soUL TRAder]

....linear travel.

I didn't say you had to use linear travel ;).

Use whatever short cuts you want, beem yourself there for all I care.

However, your assumption that because a procedure for developing on the PS3 more easily is learned on the first couple attempts that it closes the gap between the 360 is flat out false.

Even with all the shortcuts you learn and code that can be reused, the architecture of the PS3 has a lot more physical parts that must be programmed for it reach the same performance as the 360/PC, SPEs, split memory, static piplines of the GPU. Something further proven by the article this thread is based on. Furthermore developers are refining their skills on the 360 at the same time, finding shorcuts and reusing code to make their 360 coding easier each time also.

So not only is it likely that the developement time advantage of the 360 will stay at 20% but it might even increase since developers can use the UMA and USA to do more with less code.

[RMan]

However, your assumption that because a procedure for developing on the PS3 more easily is learned on the first couple attempts that it closes the gap between the 360 is flat out false.
No, I’m not saying it’s about learning, I’m saying it’s about having it done. You assume that newer games require a vast amount of engine work to make a new game, they do not, and most of the time new things that are added require no platform specific coding. Why do you think people are only complaining about their first games made on a system, and only when developing an engine?
Furthermore developers are refining their skills on the 360 at the same time, finding shorcuts and reusing code to make their 360 coding easier each time also.
Of course they are, but you seem to be assuming that PS3 developers are not learning as fast, and doing the same thing. Your views are completely backwards, if you are going to make assumptions about platform advancement, the newer ones have greater chance for growth due to learning, because they’re less known. The 360/PC have the advantage of being relatively old, and thus are more likely to be easier to develop for and more familiar, but they are not more likely to hold new discoveries.

[the soUL TRAder]

Does this mean the 360 is as powerful as a PC ???????

No, but it does indicate that it's easier for developers to work with, since it can get a game up and running at it's max settings as quickly as a PC that is 10x more powerful :D.

And that is what Carmack is indicating in this interview.

[the soUL TRAder]

..... and most of the time new things that are added require no platform specific coding.
Every game made on the PS3 requires a lot of platform specific coding if you want to get the performance out of it.
Why do you think people are only complaining about their first games made on a system, and only when developing an engine?
Most developers have only had time to make one game or optimize their engine once on the PS3, especially since it takes 20% more resources. We also haven't heard any developer claiming the advantage has been minimized now that they are on to their second game, so who's assuming now?
Of course, if you take Activision's threat to abandon the plaftform as any indication, experience isn't helping enough. ;)

Your views are completely backwards, if you are going to make assumptions about platform advancement, the newer ones have greater chance for growth due to learning, because they’re less known.

No, it's actually your views that are muddled.
Distributive processing (i.e. the cell) has been around for years and in systems without an instruction window it will always be a bitch to do.
It's actually UMA and USA that are newer technologies, plus they are specifically designed to help in graphics creation.

So yes I agree, newer technology does have greater chance for growth due to learning, which is why the 360 might have a greater upgrade in graphics at the end of it's lifecycle than the PS3.

[RMan]

Every game made on the PS3 requires a lot of platform specific coding if you want to get the performance out of it.
You still seem to not understand the difference between a game and an engine.
We also haven't heard any developer claiming the advantage has been minimized now that they are on to their second game, so who's assuming now?
Umm, I said IF you are going to assume, so you're saying it's a better assumption that their initial hurdles somehow resurface each time? Again, I've developed enough software to know how it works, and I think your assumptions are wrong, period.
Of course, if you take Activision's threat to abandon the plaftform as any indication, experience isn't helping enough. ;)
Hehe, I'll believe it when I see it, and the main thrust of their complaint was they want more PS3s in the market.
Distributive processing (i.e. the cell) has been around for years and in systems without an instruction window it will always be a bitch to do.
Distributive processing has been around for a long time, but not in a way that developers really had to deal with. While I'm by no means defending the Cell's architecture here, I am saying that the way to develop for it is far less familiar to developers, something you likely would have said before it's natural link to potential growth was mentioned.
It's actually UMA and USA that are newer technologies, plus they are specifically designed to help in graphics creation.
UMA isn’t remotely new, and isn’t that different from what you deal with on systems without. A unified shader architecture is barely different than what we had in DX9, good luck explaining how that’s gonna be heavily exploited. You’re just looking for anything you can call new tech, and saying ‘it’s got massive, untapped potential!’. Again, no sale. These are both good technologies, but they're also very easily exploited.

[oldjadedgamer]

Let me see, I can look at two games right off the bat...Killzone 2 and Uncharted 1 or 2 and see games that look better then anything on the 360. So guess what, if you have a clue you can make stuff look amazing.

If the PS3 was really that much more powerful don't you think you could come up with a huge laundry list of games rather then just two games who's developer is owned by the console maker and had unlimited budgets?

[Johan]

If the PS3 was really that much more powerful don't you think you could come up with a huge laundry list of games rather then just two games who's developer is owned by the console maker and had unlimited budgets?

I think comparing exclusives isn't the best way to compare the "abilities" or "power" of the consoles. The best way is to compare multiplatform titles, IMHO, and how they turn out on the respective platforms.

[oldjadedgamer]

I think comparing exclusives isn't the best way to compare the "abilities" or "power" of the consoles. The best way is to compare multiplatform titles, IMHO, and how they turn out on the respective platforms.

Agreed since mutltiplatform games are the norm and exclusives are the exception.

[the soUL TRAder]

Again, no sale.

Well, we'll simply have to disagree on much of this since we are both really speculating.

I do agree though that the developers will make strides in learning the cell and how to maximize it's performance, but I also believe there are going to be improvements in their understanding of the 360s arch so that the end result won't be too much different in than it is today.