PS3 Easier to Develop for than PS2

[bapenguin]

According to a certain Killzone developer (http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=killzone&message.id=71586&view=by_date_ascending&page=69) from Guerrilla Games games, the PS3 is "crazy easy" compared to the PS2 to develop for.

Thanks VE3D (http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/682/682968p1.html) for the info.

[mister_slim]

Well, there's that debate settled.

Carry on.

[Taco]

And compared to Pluto, Mars is located quite near my residence.

[jeffool]

Wow, good news on the PS3? That's kinda inspiring.

[Silversmith]

So the killzone video is real!!!! OMFG!!!!! woot! Thanks sony. The nay sayers are wrong. Graphics is going to win the war, not games.

[Vandenh]

>And compared to Pluto, Mars is located quite near my residence.

ROFL

Sony owned guy says PS3 is great on internet forum!!!! OMG!!!

[rjcc]

Well, hopefully killzone for ps3 won't suck like it did on ps2, since the difficulty of development was the only thing holding it back.

[Kelegacy]

I'm not one of his groupies, but so far mister_slim is the only one is this thread worth his father's sperm.

[rjcc]

I'm not one of his groupies, but so far mister_slim is the only one is this thread worth his father's sperm.

You could have just said that you really value loads of sperm. We won't think badly of you, seriously.

[Borys]

>And compared to Pluto, Mars is located quite near my residence.

ROFL

Sony owned guy says PS3 is great on internet forum!!!! OMG!!!

ROFL

Vandenh yet again posts trash!!!! OMG!!!

1) You really think they didn't up their dev tools?
2) PS2 was also "hard" to dev for. So "hard" that infact only 23 games were made for that platform in its entire life. Damn that "hardness"!

[bapenguin]

ROFL

Vandenh yet again posts trash!!!! OMG!!!

1) You really think they didn't up their dev tools?
2) PS2 was also "hard" to dev for. So "hard" that infact only 23 games were made for that platform in its entire life. Damn that "hardness"!

The only reason so many games were made for the PS2 is because it was the most lucrative platform. Just because something is hard doesn't mean you don't do it, just look at the pyramids. :)

[bjornbarspingvinen]

Hi, I am a sony owned guy, I never tell half-truths or lies, the Killzone demo was in-game (no, really, it was!) and the PS3 is super easy to code for. It´s true!!! I am not biased...

[Taco]

I'm worth my father's sperm.

[antoniogaud]

Hmmmm. I guess from a certain point of view, it would be easier for an experienced developer to initially develop for PS3 than PS2. When the PS2 first came out, the leap from PS1 to PS2 was much greater than the leap from PS2 to PS3.

Games like Shadow of the Colossus and Prince of Persia: Two Thrones show that the PS2 was being pushed to the edge last year - its a relative matter of small work to make those games PS3 'worthy'; faster framerates, more graphic effects, bigger poly counts, etc.

The question should properly be how hard is PS3 to develop for than X360 and how easily could PC games be ported to PS3. As a follow-up, how much better looking (or not) are PS3 games compared to X360 and PC.

[Vandenh]

>1) You really think they didn't up their dev tools?

Probably... it is just such a non-news item. It's like a Bungie guy saying 360 is better than sliced bread.

My post had nothing to do with the quality of dev tools of PS3 (and who knows.. they might be amazing), just that some random guy on a forum who works for Sony says something, doesn't mean it is so. If I was Sony I would at least try to give some real info about PS3 soon...

[Taco]

My post had nothing to do with the quality of dev tools of PS3 (and who knows.. they might be amazing), just that some random guy on a forum who works for Sony says something, doesn't mean it is so.

Your standards are too high. That's more than enough to settle this debate. I know that whenever this comes up I'll be linking to that post, which in effect will cause the end of any and all arguments. It will be known as Motherh's Law of Ease of Development Debate and no one can question it.

[kokyunage]

It will be known as Motherh's Law of Ease of Development Debate and no one can question it.

LOL. You should write a book and make millions!

[Heretic Machine]

Nazi's built the PS3!

Topic over, move on.

[DanAmerson]

And compared to Pluto, Mars is located quite near my residence.

This quote is so true. The PS2 is a real pain to develop for because you have to understand the hardware on such a low level. PS3 is significantly eaiser from what I hear, but it's no cake walk. Note that I have only done PS2, GameCube, and 360 development. My PS3 knowledge comes from others in my company and my discussions with them.

The real step up for PS3 is that is has a powerful and useful GPU compared to the graphics chip in PS2 which lacked some really important features forcing you to code them yourself. The hard task with PS3 will be harnessing all the little SPUs dangling off the Cell chip. However, someone could make a decent game using just the main core on Cell and the GPU in my opinion.

dba

[Qoz]

I have installed a filter in my brain. Whenever SONY bullshit is detected it will not get stored anywhere. No thought process what-so-ever is involved in processing this information. So I have no idea what you guys are talking about. All I hear is "SONY *beeeeeeeep*" whenever I read it. A vital tool for parents everywhere! Now I just need to get ahold of that "P0rn Amplification Filter".

[thecrazyd]

I have installed a filter in my brain. Whenever SONY bullshit is detected it will not get stored anywhere. No thought process what-so-ever is involved in processing this information. So I have no idea what you guys are talking about. All I hear is "SONY *beeeeeeeep*" whenever I read it. A vital tool for parents everywhere! Now I just need to get ahold of that "P0rn Amplification Filter".
I've got the same thing for Microsoft.

[Taco]

Don't make me pull out the phenomenon quote. Sony trumps MS by quite a large margin.

[fitbabits]

And still no 'official' news from Sony. Instead, they are leaving it up to their in-house developers to hype up a machine that for al intents and purposes does not yet exist (except in picture form). :rolleyes:

[jacktion]

Why is this worthy of a post here? This is a thirdhand quote on an internet forum. It is one sentence. It is complete random BS. And now it gets picked up and bounced around the internet by game sites all over as an official "story"? Talk about Sony Fanboys. This is ridiculous.
Here is another story for you guys. A new console is going to be released this summer called "The Buttchunk". It will outsell the PS3 and 360 and cure cancer. Quick! Post it up!

[Yeti2005]

Err this post kinda of contradicts the latest post on the site which quotes BusinessWeek:

"While he states his game will take advantage of the chip's multiple processors, he admits it isn't easy. "It's very much a lot of fumbling around at this point," and a lot of "trial and error," to get something to work on the PS 3, says James Kosta, chief architect for BattleBorne Entertainment, a studio developing a game for both the PlayStation 3 and the Xbox 360. "It could take three or four generations of games (i.e., years) before we see anything taking advantage of the Cell's real potential."

[fitbabits]

Talk about Sony Fanboys. This is ridiculous.
Seems like we can't win for losing here. Post pro-Sony news and we're Sony fanboys. Post anti-Sony news and we're 'Micro$oft's bitches'. And vice versa. All of which leaves Nintendo and the Revolution out in the cold. Almost like they don't even merit a mention for the 'next generation'.

[thecrazyd]

All of which leaves Nintendo and the Revolution out in the cold. Almost like they don't even merit a mention for the 'next generation'.
Bull shit. Never thought I would see the day where fits was trolling. Who do you think you are? Evil? Baps? You know Nintendos got a couple of supporters here.

[Kelegacy]

And still no 'official' news from Sony. Instead, they are leaving it up to their in-house developers to hype up a machine that for al intents and purposes does not yet exist (except in picture form). :rolleyes:
Epic has stated that the machine is "easy" to develop for as well.

[IndependentGMR]

Killzone kind of sucked.

[handsalad]

From reading the Sony message boards it looks like the "developer" for GG is really a tester. Testers have no clue about how easy it is to code for a system. Their job is to break the game and write down what they did to break it. At least this true at the studio I work at.

[fitbabits]

Bull shit. Never thought I would see the day where fits was trolling. Who do you think you are? Evil? Baps? You know Nintendos got a couple of supporters here.
Must remember sarcasm smiley in future! :)

[fitbabits]

Epic has stated that the machine is "easy" to develop for as well.
The sarcasm smiley wasn't enough? Lots of people have said that the PS3 is easy to develop for (relatively speaking, of course), a 'fact' that I am very much aware of. Perhaps I should lay off the sarcasm in future - at least until I've mastered the skill of applying it to the written word.

[bapenguin]

Why is this worthy of a post here? This is a thirdhand quote on an internet forum. It is one sentence. It is complete random BS. And now it gets picked up and bounced around the internet by game sites all over as an official "story"? Talk about Sony Fanboys. This is ridiculous.
Here is another story for you guys. A new console is going to be released this summer called "The Buttchunk". It will outsell the PS3 and 360 and cure cancer. Quick! Post it up!

It's not a 3rd hand quote. It was a Q&A from a developer.

[thecrazyd]

Must remember sarcasm smiley in future! :)
Holy shit. You are really bad at sarcasm.

[fitbabits]

Holy shit. You are really bad at sarcasm.
So I gathered, but thanks for the confirmation!

[thecrazyd]

So I gathered, but thanks for the confirmation!
No offense of course, it is hard to be sarcastic on a board. But damnit, every day I feel like I am going to start off a giant Internet battle with you, only to see it was sarcasm.

[fitbabits]

No offense of course, it is hard to be sarcastic on a board. But damnit, every day I feel like I am going to start off a giant Internet battle with you, only to see it was sarcasm.
I know, I've picked up on that. My concern recently has been that people see me claiming sarcasm as a way to back out of a controversial statement. Anyway...

Rest assured, there will come a time when you and I 'have at it'. :)

Edit - And no offense taken.

[Reanimated]

This just in: According to a Microsoft employee, Windows ME kicks ass.



Ahem, pardon me if I put more stock in the 3rd party dev comments that pretty much all say it's a nightmare. This is, of course, excluding Epic games, who have sould their souls for far less than game engine licensing.

[Kelegacy]

This just in: According to a Microsoft employee, Windows ME kicks ass.



Ahem, pardon me if I put more stock in the 3rd party dev comments that pretty much all say it's a nightmare. This is, of course, excluding Epic games, who have sould their souls for far less than game engine licensing.
So basically you trust no one that says anything good about Sony. Epic's a bunch of whores who will give their endorsement to the highest bidder. Apparently.

[Reanimated]

I've had a general distrust for Sony ever since Kuturagi told me that the PS2 would jack me into the matrix.

[Taco]

I'd tend to be a little less cynical if these revelations by Epic were done in a forum not put on and controlled by Sony, such as a Playstation 3 announcement press conference.

[fitbabits]

I've had a general distrust for Sony ever since Kuturagi told me that the PS2 would jack me into the matrix.
Dude, you must have got totally screwed. Each and every time I turn on my PS2, I'm beamed to an otherworldly place I like to call la-la-land. My only thought is that your PS2 is buggered - take it back for a replacement.

[Taco]

I really doubt that happens fitbabits.

[fitbabits]

I really doubt that happens fitbabits.
Shhhhh! :)

[thecrazyd]

I really doubt that happens fitbabits.
It does when your power button is coated with a thin layer of LCD.

[Citizen Philip]

I think we should just change this to EvAv: Console War Flaming. ATI 1900 XT & XTX released today with an incredible launch lots of hardware to buy from many vendors across the board: wicked frames in FEAR and many other games. Newsposts: 0. Console Flaming: As strong as usual.

[Taco]

So submit the news you shmuck.

[Atorak]

The Phantom is the easiest to develop for. Case closed.

[Reanimated]

Dude, you must have got totally screwed. Each and every time I turn on my PS2, I'm beamed to an otherworldly place I like to call la-la-land. My only thought is that your PS2 is buggered - take it back for a replacement.




This is certainly not outside of the realm of possibility. I HAVE had 3 PS2's go belly-up on me, so a 4th not working properly wouldn't be terribly shocking to me.

I've been wanting to see this matrix world that Kuturagi promised me. The closest I've been able to get with my apparently-busted PS2 is a couple of shitty games of SOCOM with a bunch of twits performing Neoesque wallhax.

[fitbabits]

This is certainly not outside of the realm of possibility. I HAVE had 3 PS2's go belly-up on me, so a 4th not working properly wouldn't be terribly shocking to me.

I've been wanting to see this matrix world that Kuturagi promised me. The closest I've been able to get with my apparently-busted PS2 is a couple of shitty games of SOCOM with a bunch of twits performing Neoesque wallhax.
You mean Enter the Matrix and Path of Neo haven't scratched your Matrix itch?

[Citizen Philip]

So submit the news you shmuck.

Yeah, because news like this is something an editor would just happen to miss, right? Oh wait, looking for game related hardware news that has nothing to do with the current consolesport oneupmanship that is more popular than actual gaming news. So far the score is nothing, nothing both groups of retards are flailing away at their chests: it's speculated the team of retards that can bang their chest the loudest will win the console war at EvAv.

[Reanimated]

You mean Enter the Matrix and Path of Neo haven't scratched your Matrix itch?





Well I played ETM on the Xbox and actually enjoyed it despite the bugs and stiff animations. I've only played PoN for a couple of hours. It seemed ok, but I can't be bothered to finish it.

I was actually under the impression that sony had created a massive online community like the matrix and that my PS2 would "jack me in".

The closest I've gotten to this is Xbox Live, so maybe Kuturagi should be working for MS since they seem to be the ones that actually deliver on all of his empty promises. :p

[Taco]

Yeah they get paid to catch this stuff Philip!! We are entitled to news and not a topic missed.

Oh wait, you can submit it in 2.5 minutes and get the same money they do.

[Zanzibar]

Yeah, because news like this is something an editor would just happen to miss, right? Oh wait, looking for game related hardware news that has nothing to do with the current consolesport oneupmanship that is more popular than actual gaming news. So far the score is nothing, nothing both groups of retards are flailing away at their chests: it's speculated the team of retards that can bang their chest the loudest will win the console war at EvAv.

Fuck you, this place runs on word-of-mouth, there's nobody being paid here. EA and Fit and Bap find some stuff on their own, but by and large this is a COMMUNITY website, so if we hear some news, we submit it to share with everyone else. Yes, we have lots of fanboys here, and if fanboys find news for/against a platform, it gets submitted. If people find OTHER news, it gets submitted too, but only if fucktards like you actually help out.

[Citizen Philip]

Fuck you, this place runs on word-of-mouth, there's nobody being paid here. EA and Fit and Bap find some stuff on their own, but by and large this is a COMMUNITY website, so if we hear some news, we submit it to share with everyone else. Yes, we have lots of fanboys here, and if fanboys find news for/against a platform, it gets submitted. If people find OTHER news, it gets submitted too, but only if fucktards like you actually help out.

No no. Fuck this! This news is 2 days old, people were buying these cards before they were officially announced, that was no secret. Today was only the offical annoucement by the company.

So either no one else here is interested or the few that do, DON'T BOTHER POSTING because this site is about console fanboys bashing the e-shit out of one another, so there is no point in submitting news that the console jockey's won't read.

You decide. Because the viewership already has.

[Zanzibar]

I'm not a PC gamer, but I agree that the ATI stuff is/was news. But why the hell didn't you post about it when you heard? There are a lot of console fanboys, we both agree, but why should CONSOLE fanboys A. hear about PC video cards, and B. care enough to submit?

We submit the news that's interesting to us. As a console-primary guy, I report on stuff that I hear and stuff that I read that has to do with the X360 and PS3. If you're a PC guy and you hear news, then it's up to YOU, not ME, to submit stuff about it. Not everyone submits news; some just come to read. I fail to see how you can call us out on not having a particular news story when you didn't submit it.

[Citizen Philip]

I'm not a PC gamer, but I agree that the ATI stuff is/was news. But why the hell didn't you post about it when you heard? There are a lot of console fanboys, we both agree, but why should CONSOLE fanboys A. hear about PC video cards, and B. care enough to submit?

We submit the news that's interesting to us. As a console-primary guy, I report on stuff that I hear and stuff that I read that has to do with the X360 and PS3. If you're a PC guy and you hear news, then it's up to YOU, not ME, to submit stuff about it. Not everyone submits news; some just come to read. I fail to see how you can call us out on not having a particular news story when you didn't submit it.

1) I'm not around on the weekends, so I never post. I might read for 20 minutes late Sunday evening before I go to bed.

2) I am very busy on Mondays, and other than a brief flame war about boobies I don't have time to put a good news story in.

3) The news was widespread and unofficial. All the reviewers were under NDA until sometime this morning. That is why there are so many reviews at the exact same time. And like point 2, it was unofficial and only posted in the forums of tech sites (or at least the one I frequent).

4) I am a prick.

5) I was proving a point. Which ultimately holds no value, but I was trying to stress something I think is important.

A) People are more interested in picking console fights then gaming related news.

B) I knew about it for a few hours, so did anyone else who reads about hardware or pretty much any tech site in general. None of them submitted the news. Why?

6) Let me say it again. I AM A PRICK.

[Taco]

You need to summarize your points better, as your meaning gets lost in the mess. I'll help you out emphasizing the more pertinent facts.

1) I am a prick.

2) Let me say it again. I AM A PRICK.

[Zanzibar]

You're contradicting yourself here:

3) ... it was unofficial and only posted in the forums of tech sites (or at least the one I frequent).

B) I knew about it for a few hours, so did anyone else who reads about hardware or pretty much any tech site in general. None of them submitted the news. Why?


So which is it, is it only available on the forums of the tech sites YOU FREQUENT, or was it available to everyone?

Cit, I dub thee 'honorary PC Tech News Submitter.' You visit PC tech websites, so you're in the minority here, but it's news nonetheless. I hope everyone who knew this news ahead of Philip's submission posts here so we can see exactly how many people knew about this.

[thecrazyd]

Blah blah blah. You want to bitch about something not being submitted when you didn't submit it? Blow.

[Citizen Philip]

I'm sorry. Go back to your console bashing.

Let me start it for you.

"I heard a rumour on a website that when you combine 6 XBOX 360s they tranform into a super XBOX"

I also heard

"The PS3 using it's hightech DRM spyware has stolen the plans to Voltron. Combining 6 PS3 will transform your home entertainment system into a Voltron-Sony hybrid. The details are unclear where the Voltron-Sony hybrid will get his Voltron Sword, but it's believed that it maybe a Blu-ray weapon of some sort."

[thecrazyd]

I'm sorry. Go back to your console bashing.

Let me start it for you.

"I heard a rumour on a website that when you combine 6 XBOX 360s they tranform into a super XBOX"

I also heard

"The PS3 using it's hightech DRM spyware has stolen the plans to Voltron. Combining 6 PS3 will transform your home entertainment system into a Voltron-Sony hybrid. The details are unclear where the Voltron-Sony hybrid will get his Voltron Sword, but it's believed that it maybe a Blu-ray weapon of some sort."
I'm sorry. If you want PC news, then fucking post it. It is not like we cannot have both. Citizen Philip bashing is way more fun then console bashing, anyway.

[Mr.Green]

Hey Citizen Philip, don't let the door hit your ass... you knew this was coming.

[aversion2k]

"the PS3 is "crazy easy" compared to the PS2 to develop for."


DUH

And did you know its easier to develop for a modern pc then for a comadore 64
Seriously if it was harder to develop for ps3 then ps2...then..well... I cant even comprehend that happening

[PixelSamurai]

PS3 + red vines = crazy delicious!!!

It may be easy to develop for, but will it deliver story lines and gameplay so compelling that it'll feel like a lucid dream?

[Zanzibar]

The real step up for PS3 is that is has a powerful and useful GPU compared to the graphics chip in PS2 which lacked some really important features forcing you to code them yourself. The hard task with PS3 will be harnessing all the little SPUs dangling off the Cell chip. However, someone could make a decent game using just the main core on Cell and the GPU in my opinion.

dba

Amen. Multipass texturing on the PS2 consists of DUPLICATING THE MESH FOR EACH PASS. Want a 2500-poly mesh to have 4-layers of multitexturing? Say hello to 10,000 polys. Goddamn rat bastards.

I think you're right on with the SPEs. Several PS3 launch titles probably won't even use 'em but the games will still look great.

[dr_wily]

PS3 + red vines = crazy delicious!!!

It may be easy to develop for, but will it deliver story lines and gameplay so compelling that it'll feel like a lucid dream?

nice one, er twos

[Serapth]

Amen. Multipass texturing on the PS2 consists of DUPLICATING THE MESH FOR EACH PASS. Want a 2500-poly mesh to have 4-layers of multitexturing? Say hello to 10,000 polys. Goddamn rat bastards.

I think you're right on with the SPEs. Several PS3 launch titles probably won't even use 'em but the games will still look great.

Please explain. I havent had hands on with the PS2, so im just going from specs. Yet, I thought at its core it was a unified memory architecture, so that each pass would reference the same chunk of memory. So, instead of generating a 10K poly mesh you would still end up with a 2500 poly object, just you would have to iterate through it 4 times.

[Zanzibar]

Please explain. I havent had hands on with the PS2, so im just going from specs. Yet, I thought at its core it was a unified memory architecture, so that each pass would reference the same chunk of memory. So, instead of generating a 10K poly mesh you would still end up with a 2500 poly object, just you would have to iterate through it 4 times.

Well, yes, that's what I'm talking about. The object is still 2500 polys, but at runtime, the code treats each pass as a separate iteration, so in essence it's drawing 10k polys instead of 2500 polys, thus significant slowdown. The Xbox hardware, meanwhile, allows up to four textures to be considered on a poly in a single pass.

It's just amazing that the Sony guys couldn't see this coming. Multipass texturing was already available on the PCs of the day; why they thought that they didn't need hardware support for it for the PS2 is beyond me.

[bobbler]

The multipass stuff is the reason the PS2 had (needed) the 48gb/s bandwidth to it's little framebuffer. Multipass worked because of the design... you try it on a PC now days and you'll find it doesn't work so hot. It was a design decision similar to TBDR/TBR -- there are positive and negative tradeoffs (taking into account the time period the design was made). It was a multipass/accumulation whore. It's also why it was rather good at particles and things like it... of course, being good at particles didn't exaclty make up for it being an aging design more akin to a voodoo1/2 in terms of graphical power (the GS, that is).

The EE+GS combo was created before programmable shaders really showed their face, so its hard to fault them for the lack of some features. I'll jump on the other side of the whole "what they were thinking" debat and say: considering that even today the VU0/1 are in many ways quite superior to the vertex shaders we have today, I think they did pretty good while remaining within the ~$400 limit for the time.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

I'm not one of his groupies, but so far mister_slim is the only one is this thread worth his father's sperm.

LMAO!!
Actually, its still there, but this is the only useful info I have gleaned from this post. I most certainly will be using this to put someone else down when i get back to work.

I don't pretend to know sh_t about sh_t, but here is my two cents:
-Wasn't the Killzone producing company Guerilla Games purchased by Sony?
-The PS2 has been around for ages and they have managed to put out far more compelling content then what has been released on Xbox or the Gamecube. The argument that PS2 was hard to develop for has been around forever...yet companies have found ways to make kick ass games on it.
-Why is everyone complaining about the lack of any formal announcements from Sony? Does it suck, yeah. Would it be nice to hear something...hell yeah. But Sony doesn't have to do a thing because rumors and speculation keeps their system on most gamers lips....even moreso than the already released (and kick ass game sytem devoid of software) 360.
-I think I'm worth my daddy's sperm...but I hear you can get $1000 bucks or so from a sperm bank, so i really can't confirm that.

Later EvAv...as always it has been a pleasure.

[mister_slim]

And the real question: How many games will the PS3 get from Derek Smart?

That'll determine the winner.

[Achilles]

I only read the first 2 pages of this thread. But of course it’s easier to program for! The PS2 didn’t even have hardware mip-mapping. It didn’t have a real video card so developers had to low level code and run in software every damn thing that video cards had been doing in hardware for the last 4 years.

Saying the PS3 is easier to program for than the PS2 is the same as saying “Hey it’s better than a kick in the teeth”. Good to know, but that’s not saying a lot. This time they’ve got a good, standard-ish video card and Sony licensed a ton of 3rd party tools.

Guerilla being owned by Sony isn’t that big a deal, they’re not comparing it to 360 hardware, and they’re not saying it’s amazing and easy to develop for, they’re just saying it’s easier than the PS2, which apart from being a reinforcement of common sense, is just comparing two platforms which were made by Sony.

[Zeal]

Wow, EA has become a joke.

Goodbye.