The PopCap Affair: Why You Shouldn't Buy Zuma [Archive]

fushi

01-21-2006, 03:57 AM

Insert Credit (http://www.insertcredit.com/), the rough diamond of gaming sites, has posted an interview with Roy Ozaki (http://www.insertcredit.com/features/hitofude/), who is the president of Mitchell (http://www.mitchell.jp/), the company behind various classic arcade games and most recently the DS's Polarium (http://polarium.nintendods.com/index2.html). A lot of topics come up, among them Mitchell's past, the Xbox 360's mindshare in Japanese development communities and, of all things, Zuma (http://www.popcap.com/gamepopup.php?theGame=zuma):

CHZ: I remember that in 2004 you intended to file a lawsuit against Popcap for IP infringement with their game Zuma, a clone of Puzz Loop (http://caesar.logiqx.com/php/emulator_game.php?id=mame&game=puzloopj) which can be played on PC and Xbox 360 (via the "Live Arcade" service). I haven't heard anything about this story since then. Was any solution or arrangement reached?

OZA: My lawyers in Japan are supposed to be on this. Progress is slow because if we do court battle in US, we would be at a disadvantage. You know the Americans and their mentality. We will be up against American jurors. You know how biased they are towards Oriental companies. Popcap games' lawyer replied my mail and the one from my lawywers' office. In essence, they don't give a shit. I think they knew what they were doing from the start and they are bad businessmen. You know that to think of a game and to actually make it takes a lot of energy and money. Ripping off someonelse's idea is bad; they don't belong in the game business. In a few months, you will see what I am doing. I am not a lawyer so we will do battle in a different court. Did you know that Popcap also has a ripoff of Puzzle Bubble?
Writing a thorough investigation on a matter such as this would in my mind be a much better example of hard-hitting video games journalism™ than asking annoying questions from the PR lead of a fledgling console that has some launch troubles. 1UP/EGM, get on it!

Emabulator

01-21-2006, 06:06 AM

OZA: My lawyers in Japan are supposed to be on this. Progress is slow because if we do court battle in US, we would be at a disadvantage. You know the Americans and their mentality. We will be up against American jurors. You know how biased they are towards Oriental companies.They may very well have been ripped off by PopCap, but it's difficult to take anything he says seriously when he throws out stereotypical, bigoted comments like that in an interview.

lpmiller

01-21-2006, 06:11 AM

All puzzle games are just rip offs of tetris anyway.

fushi

01-21-2006, 06:13 AM

They may very well have been ripped off by PopCap, but it's difficult to take anything he says seriously when he throws out stereotypical, bigoted comments like that in an interview.
I personally like it, though I'm not American. He speaks like one of those badass Japanese Yakuzabosses you seen in 80s action movies. I'm fond of that, and his honesty.

Somefool

01-21-2006, 06:25 AM

We will be up against American jurors. You know how biased they are towards Oriental companies.

Maybe some hard-hitting video games journalist™ should call him out as a bigot so we can see a humorous new Penny-Arcade about it in two weeks.

fushi

01-21-2006, 06:40 AM

Maybe some hard-hitting video games journalist™ should call him out as a bigot so we can see a humorous new Penny-Arcade about it in two weeks.
Yes, because his lack of faith in the American legal system and snide remarks towards it are obviously a much bigger problem than stealing of intellectual property and profiting from it.

What I meant to say is: Get over it and stop turning this into a debate about bigotry. The fact that PopCap is still in business is a very good reason for him to be pissed off the American legal system.

Emabulator

01-21-2006, 06:43 AM

I personally like it, though I'm not American. He speaks like one of those badass Japanese Yakuzabosses you seen in 80s action movies. I'm fond of that, and his honesty.What are you saying? You don't live in America, but you are quite sure the American people are biased against "Oriental companies" and you're pleased with him being "honest" about that? If that is what you meant, you may want to rethink that position.

see colon

01-21-2006, 06:50 AM

while i think asian people suffer from serious racism in america, the lawsuit wuld fail in the USA because it's unfounded. sure the game is similar, but how many games with names like "mr chomp" are similar to pac man. most buzzle games are variations on tetris or bust a move.

Grifter

01-21-2006, 06:51 AM

Gimme a fucking break!! almost every puzzle game out there is a rip-off of some game before it just with minor graphical and functional changes. If his game was better then maybe popcap wouldnt have been able to copy it. Sounds to me like he is just a winy little japanese nationalist who's pissed off because he wasnt smart enough to market his game internationaly.

I know that last statement sounds bad but it's no worse than what he said.

fushi

01-21-2006, 06:56 AM

What are you saying? You don't live in America, but you are quite sure the American people are biased against "Oriental companies" and you're pleased with him being "honest" about that? If that is what you meant, you may want to rethink that position.
Haven't you seen any old action movies where oftentimes there's this token Asian guy (usually portrayed as Japanese) who is very hot-blooded and flips out because of little things? Yeah, he reminds me of that, just a little.

Why must I rethink my position? I like his outspoken attitude towards the way the American legal system has treated him, that's all. Stop acting like an insecure teenager and please, please stop turning this into a silly political debate. Please.

Edit: Um, okay. As I see defending him has absolutely no merit here because the National Guard has already arrived. I give up.

rein

01-21-2006, 07:01 AM

Fushi, don't worry about it, You have to be as big as Sony or EA before people care about who you rip-off.

Evil Dude

01-21-2006, 07:27 AM

As if the japanese themselves are not bias when the chinese brought the 'jap ww2 criminal cases' to court....

fix

01-21-2006, 07:46 AM

Yay, racism! Let's all pitch in!

Hello, my name is Felix, I'm from Germany and i'm a racist. I hate how there are more flavors of brown chocolate than white! I DEMAND a white mint chocolate flavor!

Seriously though, I didn't read up on the story so I don't know how much of a ripoff the game is, but if it's really obvious, those copycats should get punished. Despite everybody doing it (the Japanese themselves were famous for copying western technology and then expanding on it), it's still not right.

I also can understand his preconceptions about the American court system. I mean, come on, didn't you have big warnings on your microwaves instructing you to _not_ put your cat in it dry it off? This kind of ridiculous BS wouldn't even make it to court in another country. Honestly, you shouldn't get rewarded for your lack of common sense.

Besides, everyone's a little bit racist. And the internet is FOR PORN! :)

EternalGamer

01-21-2006, 08:03 AM

inmostlight

01-21-2006, 08:05 AM

I've played Puzz Loop on MAME. It's from like 1997 or so...besides the fact that I don't think lawsuits for similar works have any merit, they had at least six years where they were just sitting on a title, not making sequels, and not releasing it in America. I can hardly fault Popcap for making a game that builds off their ideas.

And as I said, I think that's too much of a slippery slope; Popcap took an idea, polished it up, and enhanced it. To bring a lawsuit against them is like Softdisk suing Valve because Half-Life is similar to Catacomb.

Now if Popcap had directly stolen source code, image files, or sound files, THEN there would be grounds for a lawsuit.

mkelehan

01-21-2006, 08:24 AM

Yeah, that's bad and all, but it's nothing like Snood. How have we not crucified David Dobson for his direct ripoff of Puzzle Bobble? How has Nintendo approved the game on their systems?

fushi

01-21-2006, 08:30 AM

An example of a good news interesting news story would be one that examines both his and PopCap's responses, and examines both games, their production history, and possible crosscurrents. Basically the EXACT opposite of what you find on message boards where people seem to arbitrarily take sides and yell at each other a whole bunch without any real information...

Dan
I must apologise, because I re-read my newspost and it reads as if I'm implying that my own newspost is a great journalistic endeavour -- it obviously isn't. I'll re-edit it once more.

Edit:
I've played Puzz Loop on MAME. It's from like 1997 or so...besides the fact that I don't think lawsuits for similar works have any merit, they had at least six years where they were just sitting on a title, not making sequels, and not releasing it in America. I can hardly fault Popcap for making a game that builds off their ideas.
It's from 1998 and they published a sequel in 2001. A DS version is in the works for 2006. Also, the amount of polish PopCap gave to the basic concept of the game is minimal.

Seriously, I wouldn't be so pissed by this if they at least would mention that they stole the concept. They have never ever done that and have actually picked up small-time awards for game design IIRC.

And your Half-Life example doesn't work here because there many many levels of depth in an FPS game that need to be tuned and enhanced, whereas most puzzlers survive on their basic concept.

Banacek

01-21-2006, 08:31 AM

Yeah, that's bad and all, but it's nothing like Snood. How have we not crucified David Dobson for his direct ripoff of Puzzle Bobble? How has Nintendo approved the game on their systems?

hahaha, I know so many people who play snood, and when I ask them about Bust-a-Move they just look at me, puzzled.

Reanimated

01-21-2006, 08:32 AM

They may very well have been ripped off by PopCap, but it's difficult to take anything he says seriously when he throws out stereotypical, bigoted comments like that in an interview.

My thoughts exactly.

And now I'm off to purchase Zuma on Live Arcade.

kid cabelgo

01-21-2006, 09:23 AM

Klade

01-21-2006, 09:24 AM

The reason why the lawsuit would fail in america has nothing to do with jurors. It actually wouldn't even make it to that stage. It would fail because theres no reason why it should be brought in America. All the harm occured overseas, anyone he sued in America could get it transfered out of the country pretty easily. And they would prefer to have it done that way since American jurors tend to produce much larger monetary damages then jurors of other countries.

laggerific

01-21-2006, 11:54 AM

They have puzzloop at the boardwalk in santa Cruz, and I remember seeing my wife play it and we both thought it was a cheap rip off of zuma...

Puzzloop was lame, but I am curious if everything that copies tetris pays a license fee back to that IP. I don't know...I guess, though, since it is pretty much the exact same game, that popcap should pay some royalties to the originator.

Demo_Boy

01-21-2006, 11:56 AM

How about he has been harmed from licensing his game to be ported for the NA audience?
Its unlikely that ppl will buy a copy of Zuma now that Zuma is already out.

And pop cap winning design awards for zuma in gameplay should be revoked. They clearly didnt design the gameplay.

Its big league american capitalism stomping all over the little guys great inspiration. He's clearly not getting licensing fees for the concept with should be paid to him.

For example we all remember when there were two versions of Tetris on the NES, the good one and the one that was liscenced. One got pulled begause it hadnt been autorized by the owner. Its not like they could have resitckered it "Tetras" and continued selling it.

laggerific

01-21-2006, 12:08 PM

Yeah...all of this makes me wonder who originally created the concept behind insaniquarium...that was totally from the japanese...I mean, a fish tank, and then aliens invade, and you feed fish to get them to drop money...

I never really thought about popcap, mainly because I assumed it was a collection of people that brainstormed about gaming, or joined up to use their clout to push their original ideas. This is dissappointing...

I am curious what popcaps official response is to this incident...I mean, if they are just ignoring this person and expecting them to just push them out of the way...WTF? Just work out a deal and get your name in the clear. I'm sick of every friggin company I want to deal with having major honesty issues.

jacktion

01-21-2006, 12:10 PM

Game ideas are constantly recycled, cloned and remade. This is not illegal. If it was, then we would only have one fps, and all the others would be infringing on its patents.

The legal bottom line is that a basic game concept cannot be patented. If you change the art and terms and throw in a slight variation then it is considered a new game. If you take the name and art then you have a legal case.

This guy is not prosecuting in the US because it is not illegal in the US so he knows he has no case. He is hoping that he can win somewhere else.

Nadreck

01-21-2006, 12:11 PM

As has been discovered in prior lawsuits in games and particularly in literature, you can't copyright an idea, just an implementation of an idea. So, you can sue for derivative graphics or sound, but you can't sue for the concept of the game (what the game is).

His case will fail not because he's asian and suing an american company, but because unless he can show that code was copied (again, that would be an implementation), he has no grounds for suit.

Returner

01-21-2006, 12:22 PM

I just bought Zuma on Live arcade lol I'm an evil American.

Rafer

01-21-2006, 12:24 PM

Game ideas are constantly recycled, cloned and remade. This is not illegal. If it was, then we would only have one fps, and all the others would be infringing on its patents.

There are lots of game patents though, ghost cars in racing games are covered by one patent, mini games during loading screens (like Ridge Racer) is covered by another patent, John Carmack has bitched about one method of making shadows in a game that is patented.

Kefkataran

01-21-2006, 12:49 PM

Writing a thorough investigation on a matter such as this would in my mind be a much better example of hard-hitting video games journalism™ than asking annoying questions from the PR lead of a fledgling console that has some launch troubles. 1UP/EGM, get on it!

What I meant to say is: Get over it and stop turning this into a debate about bigotry. The fact that PopCap is still in business is a very good reason for him to be pissed off the American legal system.

Only if you get over it and stop turning it into a debate about a story from a couple days ago that has nothing to do with this.

Heretic Machine

01-21-2006, 12:50 PM

There are lots of game patents though, ghost cars in racing games are covered by one patent, mini games during loading screens (like Ridge Racer) is covered by another patent, John Carmack has bitched about one method of making shadows in a game that is patented.

Ya, but they don't hold up in court. Nintendo has a patent on "sanity" systems, but like most video game patents, it's complete bullshit.

RMan

01-21-2006, 12:57 PM

I like his outspoken attitude towards the way the American legal system has treated him, that's all.
BTW, what I read was an outspoken attitude towards the way HE THINKS the American legal system will treat him. It's clear prejudice, and I do not get the impression he wants to just avoid the potential prejudice from American jurors but also to gain the prejudice from oriental ones. Seems to me it’s about fighting his battle on favorable turf, and he’d react the same to any other country because any country’s jurors are going to identify better with their own people. Well, you know Orientals and their mentality.

mister_slim

01-21-2006, 12:57 PM

Did PopCap change the gameplay at all?

thegameguru

01-21-2006, 01:55 PM

For example we all remember when there were two versions of Tetris on the NES, the good one and the one that was liscenced. One got pulled begause it hadnt been autorized by the owner. Its not like they could have resitckered it "Tetras" and continued selling it.

If by Owner you mean Nintendo then you are correct.. It had nothing to do with the author of Tetris.. simply that Tengen at the time put out a Tetris game without the official license. Which is why the game ended up become a collector's item.

http://www.classicgaming.com/rotw/ttetris.shtml

fushi

01-21-2006, 02:16 PM

Only if you get over it and stop turning it into a debate about a story from a couple days ago that has nothing to do with this.
That was just a silly remark and indeed, it has little to nothing to do with this. I don't see why you are even mentioning it because I haven't referenced that article at all after the first post. It was just a bit of 'tude, that's all.

So yeah, whassamattayoo?

I mean, I've learned my lesson, I will refrain from posting possibly controversial news in the future because the people here can't take a jab at their country's legal system unless it comes from one of their own.

mister_slim: they tweaked it, but the core mechanics (which are quite complex) are the same.

TKO

01-21-2006, 03:50 PM

Jeez.. Are y'all really so sensitive about yer legal system? I thought it was perfectly valid he might feel he wouldn't get a 'fair' deal in another country's courts. (Or *any* courts: aren't they all beauracratic behemoths, detached from reality?) But the *point* of all this, heck, if ya just take a look at screenshots of the two games: Zuma is obviously the same game with a different skin. IMHO PopCap have a case to answer here. I'll be interested to see how it turns out.

mister_slim

01-21-2006, 03:54 PM

Yeah, this is going to be an interesting problem for the casual game industry. As they start moving towards traditional distribution, cloning games is going to be a problem. Look at Bejeweled/Zooo.

holycrapper

01-21-2006, 03:54 PM

the real issue here is how an american company would fare in an oriental court system...

that outta get them all foaming at the mouth....

did I just write that....?

Crap!

ElectricMonk

01-21-2006, 04:12 PM

I think any sort of copyright or patents on gameplay will only hurt the industry in the long run. Just imagine if these guys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maze_War) had patented their inventions.

There would be no gaming as we know it today.

Rone

01-21-2006, 08:18 PM

Say, if they want to sue over Zuma, they should take a look at Luxor (http://www.mumbojumbo.com/luxorar.html), too. Or Atlantis (http://www.bigfishgames.com/downloads/atlantisarcade/index.html). Or any of the other clones that have appeared thanks to Zuma's popularity. Seriously, if you started to sue over every incident of copied gameplay, there'd be no video games industry left. Popcap didn't copy the graphics, sounds, or name from Puzz Loop, which means there's nothing to sue over.

Bejeweled was hardly original, either, but as far as I've heard, nobody has sued the creators over it.

Kefkataran

01-21-2006, 08:30 PM

That was just a silly remark and indeed, it has little to nothing to do with this. I don't see why you are even mentioning it because I haven't referenced that article at all after the first post. It was just a bit of 'tude, that's all.

I find the "'tude" exercised around here usually pointless and silly. But if you're going to write off THAT pointless remark as simpley "'tude" then all the other remarks about the man being a bigot that you're getting so angry at could be written off as the same.

I mean, I've learned my lesson, I will refrain from posting possibly controversial news in the future because the people here can't take a jab at their country's legal system unless it comes from one of their own.

Hey, I hate the way our system works as much as the next guy. I was just annoyed by your original comment. I say keep the controversy coming.