Criterion: Nobody's Maxed Out PS3/360

[Emabulator]

In comments made to Eurogamer (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/criterion-nobodys-maxed-out-ps3-360) it's quite clear that Richard Parr and Alex Fry from Criterion Games feel there's still plenty of horsepower that can be tapped from the Xbox 360 and PS3.

Burnout Paradise developer Criterion reckons that developers who talk about maxing out the potential of a games console are being a bit silly.

"That's proof that you're not the best," technical director Richard Parr told Eurogamer's Digital Foundry channel. "It means you're out of ideas."

"You always find new ways to do things, the constraints lift. Not just with a new console generation but with every game you do," senior engineer Alex Fry added. "Whether it's a sequel or whether it's a new game, you learn to do things differently... better. The constraints go away because you learn. While it's nice to say you've maxed something out, there's not really any point."

[TeeCakes]

I'm surprised EA let a statement like "we've maxed out the 360 (http://www.vg247.com/2009/06/05/ea-says-weve-maxed-out-360-but-not-ps3/)" slip out with Peter "O' Tool" Moore in charge. But that statement, and Criterion's response, is part of a chain reaction occurring in the racing genre by game industry talking heads all stemming from this tastelessness from the Forza team (http://www.videogamer.com/news/yamauchi_hasnt_done_anything_for_me_in_years.html) . And this one (http://www.thegamersmag.com/2009/06/06/turn-10-on-forza-3-no-game-competes-with-us/). Then EA decided to respond (http://www.videogamer.com/news/ea_blur_is_completely_underwhelming.html) in kind, and the whole thing blew up from there.

Forza 3 might be a GOTY contender, but those Turn 10 guys are disrespectful twats (http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=76168&page=1).

[oldjadedgamer]

I'm surprised EA let a statement like "we've maxed out the 360 (http://www.vg247.com/2009/06/05/ea-says-weve-maxed-out-360-but-not-ps3/)" slip out with Peter "O' Tool" Moore in charge. But that statement, and Criterion's response, is part of a chain reaction occurring in the racing genre by game industry talking heads all stemming from this tastelessness from the Forza team (http://www.videogamer.com/news/yamauchi_hasnt_done_anything_for_me_in_years.html) . And this one (http://www.thegamersmag.com/2009/06/06/turn-10-on-forza-3-no-game-competes-with-us/). Then EA decided to respond (http://www.videogamer.com/news/ea_blur_is_completely_underwhelming.html) in kind, and the whole thing blew up from there.

Forza 3 might be a GOTY contender, but those Turn 10 guys are disrespectful twats (http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=76168&page=1).

Turn 10 can make those claims when they don't have any competition.

[TeeCakes]

Turn 10 can make those claims when they don't have any competition.

I'd hardly say Forza 2 and GT5: Prologue both selling 3M units worldwide as them having "no competition". Especially considering Forza 2 had 8M more console users to sell to than the "glorified demo" did.

Much less would I (if I were the aforementioned twats) try to claim that the GT series hasn't done anything significant "in years" like those asshats are claiming, seeing as how they can't even seem to surpass a "stagnant" GT5 tech demo in sales.

[the soUL TRAder]

Yeah, it's a pretty simple equation:

The PS3 has more power to tap as soon as developers become more skilled at orchestrating the different proccessing units, and developers for the 360 will find more efficient ways to use it's design to tap into more performance. PS3 games will continue to look slightly better and 360 games will continue to run slightly smoother.

It's mostly funny that this is starting from racing sim makers, since that is much easier code to develope than FPSs, TPSs or action adventure, since it uses less branchy code.

And wow, what a shock, someone turned this into a platformist arguement :eek:.

Get off your soapbox tool, it's 100% non asshatery when a developer in a genre says his product is better than a strict competitor, it's called taking pride in your work. Especially when he gives credit to that competitor for inspiring to make games.

What is asshatery is when some PR manager says you'll want to work two jobs for his product when that idiot doesn't even make games.

And of course the king of asshatery is you platformists who have to go around in a state of fanbois induced hysteria, turning everything into a console war.
Congrat's on your crown.

[yerok]

it's strange that people got their panties in a bunch over those comments. You'll notice he also said:

Kazunori Yamauchi-san is someone I have tremendous respect for. I have tremendous respect for the work of team, but I am a GT fan. I bought my first car that I stressed out about buying because I played it in Gran Turismo. I’m in this industry because of that game.

So, basically it sounds like he's a fan who, just like most of the other fans, has been waiting and waiting for GT to bring the next experience. Seems some fans can't bear the thought of a criticism being leveled at their holy game.

[the soUL TRAder]

So, basically it sounds like he's a fan who, just like most of the other fans, has been waiting and waiting for GT to bring the next experience. Seems some fans can't bear the thought of a criticism being leveled at their holy game.

Well said.
I'd venture to guess some people aren't even really that big of fans of the game, but since it'a a hallmark of their favorite platform, PANTIES MUST GET BUNCHED!

[ElfShotTheFood]

it's strange that people got their panties in a bunch over those comments. You'll notice he also said:

So, basically it sounds like he's a fan who, just like most of the other fans, has been waiting and waiting for GT to bring the next experience. Seems some fans can't bear the thought of a criticism being leveled at their holy game.

Sorry, but those comments just prove how much he hates the PS3.

If you don't believe me, just ask TeeCakes.

[divinechaos]

Sorry, but those comments just prove how much he hates the PS3.

If you don't believe me, just ask TeeCakes.

Respect MUST equal hatred, if we're following TeeCakes' responses.

[Mr.Green]

I'd hardly say Forza 2 and GT5: Prologue both selling 3M units worldwide as them having "no competition".

Except Sony bundled Prologue with the console. A co-worker bought a PS3 as a Blu-Ray player when she bought her new HDTV and ended up with a copy of the game that she never played.

I'm not saying GT isn't a huge franchise but this is something that should be considered when using sales numbers as an argument.

[shadow763]

Except Sony bundled Prologue with the console. A co-worker bought a PS3 as a Blu-Ray player when she bought her new HDTV and ended up with a copy of the game that she never played.

I'm not saying GT isn't a huge franchise but this is something that should be considered when using sales numbers as an argument.

I dont believe GT was ever bundled in NA was it? Also Forza 2 was included in a bundle for the 360 so I am sure that helped sales as well.

[Second Century]

You'll have to pardon Richard and Alex's faux pas; they don't know any better. The two astronauts have lost touch with reality, orbiting the corporate world in EA’s R&D space station. :o

Elegant solutions take time and talent, planets that are rarely aligned a fiscal universe. So when an architecture is being "maxed out", innovation is becoming impractical.

[rjcc]

I'm surprised EA let a statement like "we've maxed out the 360 (http://www.vg247.com/2009/06/05/ea-says-weve-maxed-out-360-but-not-ps3/)" slip out with Peter "O' Tool" Moore in charge. But that statement, and Criterion's response, is part of a chain reaction occurring in the racing genre by game industry talking heads all stemming from this tastelessness from the Forza team (http://www.videogamer.com/news/yamauchi_hasnt_done_anything_for_me_in_years.html) . And this one (http://www.thegamersmag.com/2009/06/06/turn-10-on-forza-3-no-game-competes-with-us/). Then EA decided to respond (http://www.videogamer.com/news/ea_blur_is_completely_underwhelming.html) in kind, and the whole thing blew up from there.

Forza 3 might be a GOTY contender, but those Turn 10 guys are disrespectful twats (http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=76168&page=1).

Jesus you GT fanboys believe the world revolves around you. This has nothing to do with Turn10.

[oldjadedgamer]

I dont believe GT was ever bundled in NA was it? Also Forza 2 was included in a bundle for the 360 so I am sure that helped sales as well.

http://kotaku.com/assets/resources/2008/03/gt5bundle.jpg

Forza 2 outsold GT5 easily according to NPD (which doesn't count bundles btw). What Teecakes is referring to is more then likely worldwide numbers that he can't prove and will probably just link vgchartzzzzzz again. GT5 was bundled with units both in Japan and in the UK boosting the numbers artificially (remember, NPD doesn't count bundled sales at all). Looking at NPD where the only factual numbers can come from will show the GT5 $40 demo way... way behind the real Forza game in sales.

Remember, there will have been 3 full Forza games before there is even one full GT next gen game. When I said they had no competition, I meant just that. GT folks need to STFU until it's released. Until then, it's vaporware. Shoot, it will have taken them over 5 years to release GT on the PSP. FIVE YEARS for a PSP game!!!!!!!!!

[TeeCakes]

it's strange that people got their panties in a bunch over those comments. You'll notice he also said:

So, basically it sounds like he's a fan who, just like most of the other fans, has been waiting and waiting for GT to bring the next experience. Seems some fans can't bear the thought of a criticism being leveled at their holy game.

I'm sorry, but that's bullshit.

It's like somebody telling you "Don't take this the wrong way" and using that as an excuse to disrespect you to your face. You can't get mad at them, because then you've obviously 'taken it the wrong way'! It's the most bass-ackwards logic I've ever heard.

Just because he gave himself the excuse that he's always been a GT fan as an "out" to make attacks against his professional rivals doesn't excuse the UNPROFESSIONAL comments. And there's still the issue of boasting how Forza is better than the competition when neither Forza 3, nor GT5 or NFS: Shift have even released yet.

You'll also notice that of all the people that have "gotten their panties in a bunch" by making embarrassing comments to the media throughout this fiasco, none of them happen to work at Polyphony. Draw your own conclusions.

[TeeCakes]

Jesus you GT fanboys believe the world revolves around you. This has nothing to do with Turn10.

1) I'm not a GT fanboy. I've played the first game in the series on PSOne, and that's it.

2) I'm not making a case for GT series > Forza series, quality-wise. That has nothing to do with anything I've said.

3) Turn 10 being asshats publicly in the media directly stems from some perceived "diss" to the 360 in terms of raw potential, which is the very subject that Criterion (one of the companies that Turn 10 says provides "no competition" in the racing genre, btw) is addressing in the OP.

But thanks for your meaningful contribution to this thread, Chuckles.

[Pumped'Up]

I'm still waiting to be wowed by the PS3 graphics processing performance.

Indeed it's Blu-ray performace is clealry amazing - on par with any DVD player and this is something no standalone BD player has achieved yet.

However, the one thing that really bothers me is that the majority of games on the PS3 support only 720p, contrary to what was stated at launch when all games were mandated to support 1080p. Now after 3 years, 1080p is possible as we've seen on some titles (i.e. MGS4). So the question is, are developers make it a priority when making or even porting games to the PS3?

Untapped power or just developer laziness???

[oldjadedgamer]

However, the one thing that really bothers me is that the majority of games on the PS3 support only 720p, contrary to what was stated at launch when all games were mandated to support 1080p. Now after 3 years, 1080p is possible as we've seen on some titles (i.e. MGS4). So the question is, are developers make it a priority when making or even porting games to the PS3?

Untapped power or just developer laziness???

MGS4 is not in 1080p. I wouldn't call it untapped power or developer laziness for the lack of 1080p in games, I would call it empty promises by Sony at the start of this gen.

[divinechaos]

inFAMOUS, a game that came out last month only outputs in 720p. An exclusive title that doesn't take advantage of what the PS3 was advertised to do and it's been... 3 years? It's a fucking fun game but those jaggies could've been less painful had it been in 1080i/p.

[the soUL TRAder]

1) I'm not a GT fanboy. I've played the first game in the series on PSOne, and that's it.

Did I call it or what, he dosen't even play the game.

I'm starting to think he doesn't play games at all, just supports his platform.

[the soUL TRAder]

Untapped power or just developer laziness???

Really neither.

It's mostly Sony chickens comming home to roost.
They were wanting to promote it's abilities to curb enthusiasm for the competitors and while the capibility to display 1080p is there, in the real development world it's very difficult to build a videogame on it in 1080p.

I think you need something like a 28mb frame buffer, before any post processing effects, to produce a true 1080p picture, especially if you wan't 30/60fps. On certain games that don't have branchy code it's possible, but FPSs, TPSs and any game with a lot of things on the screen at once have no chance.

However, GT5, like most racing games, uses less branch prediction than most genres and therefore should be able to produce 1080p at 60frames with A LOT of development. It's the reason that the racing games look so much better than most other games on any platform.

[Ebon Deth]

I'm surprised EA let a statement like "we've maxed out the 360 (http://www.vg247.com/2009/06/05/ea-says-weve-maxed-out-360-but-not-ps3/)" slip out with Peter "O' Tool" Moore in charge. But that statement, and Criterion's response, is part of a chain reaction occurring in the racing genre by game industry talking heads all stemming from this tastelessness from the Forza team (http://www.videogamer.com/news/yamauchi_hasnt_done_anything_for_me_in_years.html) . And this one (http://www.thegamersmag.com/2009/06/06/turn-10-on-forza-3-no-game-competes-with-us/). Then EA decided to respond (http://www.videogamer.com/news/ea_blur_is_completely_underwhelming.html) in kind, and the whole thing blew up from there.

Forza 3 might be a GOTY contender, but those Turn 10 guys are disrespectful twats (http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=76168&page=1).

Cry more. Seriously, you and everyone wetting their panties over those comments need to cry more to show the world how silly little Sony fanboys feel hilariously threatened by Forza 3.

Cry more. It amuses me.

[Ebon Deth]

I'm sorry, but that's bullshit.

It's like somebody telling you "Don't take this the wrong way" and using that as an excuse to disrespect you to your face. You can't get mad at them, because then you've obviously 'taken it the wrong way'! It's the most bass-ackwards logic I've ever heard.

Just because he gave himself the excuse that he's always been a GT fan as an "out" to make attacks against his professional rivals doesn't excuse the UNPROFESSIONAL comments. And there's still the issue of boasting how Forza is better than the competition when neither Forza 3, nor GT5 or NFS: Shift have even released yet.

You'll also notice that of all the people that have "gotten their panties in a bunch" by making embarrassing comments to the media throughout this fiasco, none of them happen to work at Polyphony. Draw your own conclusions.


Aaaahhh....that's better.

[Ebon Deth]

1) I'm not a GT fanboy. I've played the first game in the series on PSOne, and that's it.

2) I'm not making a case for GT series > Forza series, quality-wise. That has nothing to do with anything I've said.

3) Turn 10 being asshats publicly in the media directly stems from some perceived "diss" to the 360 in terms of raw potential, which is the very subject that Criterion (one of the companies that Turn 10 says provides "no competition" in the racing genre, btw) is addressing in the OP.

But thanks for your meaningful contribution to this thread, Chuckles.

YEEESSSSS!!!

[Ebon Deth]

Did I call it or what, he dosen't even play the game.

I'm starting to think he doesn't play games at all, just supports his platform.

You're just now coming to this conclusion? Sony loyalists are EASILY the most insecure fanboys in the history of gaming. They were ALWAYS that way but were sustained by having the best selling platform (the main source of their "pride", it's NEVER about the games). Which is why you see them melting down everywhere now.

They don't have the best selling platform to brag about so they concentrate ALL of their energy in proving the graphical superiority of PS3 exclusive titles. Hell, they don't even BUY games. Their most hyped and anticipated games always sell below par (can't blame this on userbase anymore, kiddies) because they don't actually care about PLAYING games. Just fighting The Great Console War.

Nintendo loyalists are insecure as well, but they've taken Sony loyalists spot in being buoyed by having the best-selling console (not necessarily having a great lineup of games as in the past). I could write a book on insecure fanboys on the 'net. These Sony-loyalists take the cake though...

[the soUL TRAder]

You're just now coming to this conclusion?

I guess this way of thinking is so foreign to me, I didn't want to believe that the games were so unimportant to these platformists.

[TeeCakes]

Did I call it or what, he dosen't even play the game.

I'm starting to think he doesn't play games at all, just supports his platform.

You might have a point if I was trying to defend the GT series. But I'm not, and you don't.

Turn 10's behavior is simply inexcusable. You have yet to provide anything of substance to argue me on that, but continue with the unrelated fanboy accusations if that's all you're good for!

Nice sig, by the way! :D

You're just now coming to this conclusion? Sony loyalists are EASILY the most insecure fanboys in the history of gaming. They were ALWAYS that way but were sustained by having the best selling platform (the main source of their "pride", it's NEVER about the games). Which is why you see them melting down everywhere now.

They don't have the best selling platform to brag about so they concentrate ALL of their energy in proving the graphical superiority of PS3 exclusive titles. Hell, they don't even BUY games. Their most hyped and anticipated games always sell below par (can't blame this on userbase anymore, kiddies) because they don't actually care about PLAYING games. Just fighting The Great Console War.

Nintendo loyalists are insecure as well, but they've taken Sony loyalists spot in being buoyed by having the best-selling console (not necessarily having a great lineup of games as in the past). I could write a book on insecure fanboys on the 'net. These Sony-loyalists take the cake though...

Again, some dipshit who can't argue has to resort to "You're a fanboy! That means I don't need to use logic, I can just twist everything you say into some defense of the PS3!" You guys are a dime-a-dozen around EvAv!

Please re-read all of the comments you quoted by me. Where did I say ANYTHING about the PS3 being the best system? Where did I even mention the GT series? This is about unprofessionalism by the douchebags at Turn 10, leave your whole "platformist" obfuscation tactics out of it.

Or just admit that you don't have a pot to piss in about denying that I'm right. But I guess it makes sense for someone like you to defend a buncha dicks, amirite?

[the soUL TRAder]

You might have a point if I was trying to defend the GT series. But I'm not, and you don't.

Turn 10's behavior is simply inexcusable.

Umm, you are the platformist with fanbois induced hysteria who, instead of talking about what the thread was about, saw an opportunity to attack a developer for no other reason than he makes games exclusively for one of the platforms you don't support.

Get a clue, clueless, any objective gamer knows that there's is nothing new, and definately nothing inexcusable about what Turn10 said. Especially when they preface it by saying: "as a fan of the series", referring to GT.

I mean at most, saying:
'Yamauchi hasn’t done anything for me in years'
is nothing more than a slight jab at it taking almost four years to release GT5 when Turn10 are releasing F3 in 2 and a half, plus the fact that they have release two nexGen titles when PD has yet to release one.

And what would you want a developer to say? My game sucks and Gran Turismo will always be the best EVA?

Ya you probably would platformist. ;)

[TeeCakes]

What would I want a developer to say? Nothing-- I would MUCH rather them humbly go to the competition's booth at E3 and take notes, and save the trash talking for people like you who seem to eat it up and cheer on that sort of pointless behavior. Turn 10 has no excuse, and if you think the worst thing they said was 'Yamauchi hasn't done anything in 10 years' (again, a lie considering GT5: Prologue), then you should reread the links.

And I've explained how this relates to the OP. You continue to neglect to mention how me liking the PS3 over the 360 has anything to do with anything, though! :D

[the soUL TRAder]

You continue to neglect to mention how me liking the PS3 over the 360 has anything to do with anything, though!

You've already proven by your posts that, in your mind, your liking the PS3 over the 360 has everything to do with everything, even when it dosen't have anything to do with with what Turn10 said; which, in turn :D has nothing to do with Criterion saying the PS3/360 aren't maxed out yet.

And, I sincerely doubt you are that concerned with companies in gaming "humbly go"ing anywhere, because if that's true, your defending Sony makes you the greatest hypocrite EVA!

[Anenome]

I'm so tired of statements like this. Yeah, they're not maxxed out. And they never will be. Each increment of performance at the bleeding edge comes at increased cost and time to the developer without am equivalent corresponding increase in consumer value.

If you wanted to spend a billion dollars maxxing out the system for one game, you could get pretty damn close, but you'd still have potentialities unexplored.

[MasterKwan]

TeeCakes' posts aways amuse me because you ALWAYS know what he's going to say before he says it. I assume he's drawing a paycheck from Sony as part of their viral defense program.

GT has become the "Duke Nukem Forever" of driving sims. I'll buy it if it ever comes out but, I'm not holding my breath. I own every Forza and GT Prologue. My only wish is that they'd encode my local tracks, Summit Point, VIR and Beaverun.

[TeeCakes]

TeeCakes' posts aways amuse me because you ALWAYS know what he's going to say before he says it. I assume he's drawing a paycheck from Sony as part of their viral defense program.

GT has become the "Duke Nukem Forever" of driving sims. I'll buy it if it ever comes out but, I'm not holding my breath. I own every Forza and GT Prologue. My only wish is that they'd encode my local tracks, Summit Point, VIR and Beaverun.

Well, that was original :rolleyes:

Making this about GT vs Forza is completely on topic, too :rolleyes:

[oldjadedgamer]

Well, that was original :rolleyes:

Making this about GT vs Forza is completely on topic, too :rolleyes:

What idiot brought Forza into this discussion? Let me go back through the thread and find out........

[see colon]

It's pretty easy to "max out" hardware, depending on how you define "max out". If you look at things like % of CPU useage, or % of fillrate used, or whatever, even a novice programer could max those things by writing some sloppy code that takes forever to execute. Think about some of the crappy games available for whatever platform that don't appear to be doing enough work behind the scenes to constitute the poor performace you see. Many console<->PC ports do this. Look at how Quake4 stuttered more and had blurrier textures than Call of Duty 3 on XBOX360. Look at the performance of any GTA game after 3 on the PC. Even at lower resolutions those game have performance issues on solid hardware setups.

If you are "maxing out" a system in that regard, and other people aren't, maybe you are doing something wrong.

[WholeWheatCracker]

Considering the current attrition rate of the 360, I'm honestly worried if we're nowhere near to maxing out the system's potential - will the thing then burn my house down rather than red-ring or give me a general hardware failure message? My Elite is heading in for replacement for the second time tomorrow - my Premium shipped today for the fifth time (sold it to a coworker). I've said it before, but if Live wasn't one of the single most brilliant pieces of tech I've ever used, and I didn't have hundreds of dollars (possibly over $1k) in downloads on that bitch, I would've bailed long ago. My wife is quite the "piece of ass" and has a great personality, but I dated some absolutely SMOKING hot girls/women in my earlier days - the 360 reminds me of a few of them. Great 70% of the time, but then the bipolar kicks in. Son of a BITCH. Just when things were looking good... But I always hung on too long because of the "software".
If Sony had been first to bat with a better version of Home, I have little doubt they'd own the "Next Gen" console market now. Loved my PS1 and PS2, never had an issue with either - and I think I owned the PS2 for 8 or 9 years. My wife bought me an original XBox a year before the 360 launched - it didn't take long for me to build up a substantial library of new and used games. Loved the crap out of that thing - never had a single problem with it. Both companies deserve merit, and both have made some big mistakes. I'm not a fanboy (I can't bring my 34 year old, non-gay male self type out "fanboi" with a straight face), I want all the systems. I want to be able to play all the blockbuster, proprietary titles. I'm surprised anyone that considers themselves a true gamer would limit themselves to one brand or a single system. This isn't a Honda vs VW or Chevy vs Ford debate - but I don't have much loyalty in those regards, either. Just as it's the design, spirit, and exhaust note of a car that stirs the soul, it's the game/software that should be of primary concern to a true gamer. Otherwise, you're missing out on a shit-ton (word I picked up from one of my contemporaries recently) of great games.

[see colon]

My wife is quite the "piece of ass"

Pictures or work!

[TeeCakes]

What idiot brought Forza into this discussion? Let me go back through the thread and find out........

The idiots in question would be the Turn 10 developers I quoted on the previous page, since they're the entire reason Criterion felt the need to make the comments they did in the OP.

But of course, you meant something entirely different, which is typical. Just ask yourself why I would even comment in this thread if I didn't have sufficient ammunition-- for it's a given that any thread I post in will be me VS the majority *** Loyalty here on EvAv.

Turn 10's arrogance is the only reason why I ever commented in this thread to begin with, but if you want to spin it as me being pro-GT and anti-Forza, feel free to make a fool out of yourself!

[oldjadedgamer]

The idiots in question would be the Turn 10 developers I quoted on the previous page, since they're the entire reason Criterion felt the need to make the comments they did in the OP.

But of course, you meant something entirely different, which is typical. Just ask yourself why I would even comment in this thread if I didn't have sufficient ammunition-- for it's a given that any thread I post in will be me VS the majority *** Loyalty here on EvAv.

Turn 10's arrogance is the only reason why I ever commented in this thread to begin with, but if you want to spin it as me being pro-GT and anti-Forza, feel free to make a fool out of yourself!

Funny, I didn't see anything in the OP article about Forza... at all. You were the only one that brought it up. Even every link you had in your post said nothing about maxing out any system.

You are paranoid and you drove this thread straight off topic with your very first post with your hating on Turn10 because you feel they insulted a Sony first party which again has NOTHING to do with the OP.

[Anenome]

Just ask yourself why I would even comment in this thread if I didn't have sufficient ammunition-- for it's a given that any thread I post in will be me VS the majority *** Loyalty here on EvAv.


God you're an idiot.

[Anenome]

TeeCakes' posts aways amuse me because you ALWAYS know what he's going to say before he says it. I assume he's drawing a paycheck from Sony as part of their viral defense program.


- That's a reasonable assumption. It helps to have credibility though, I don't think he has much.