[360] - Dead or Alive 4 In-House Review

[Everlost_MI]

Dead or Alive 4 Review (XBOX 360)
By Everlost_MI (Brian K. Nichols), Editor in Chief

Team Ninja has created the latest chapter in their Dead or Alive (DOA) franchise with the release of Dead or Alive 4 (DOA4) for the Xbox 360’s launch. While the release date did slip past the original launch window of the 360, it still repeats the similar release of Dead or Alive 3 (DOA3) for the original Xbox launch in 2001. DOA4 showcases the 360s graphical abilities and continues to raises the bar for fighting games by building on Dead or Alive Ultimate’s (DOAU) on-line and off-line gameplay. The familiar DOA characters have returned with new moves, abilities, interactive environments and sparring partners, which include Bungie's Spartan-458, to keep new and returning DOA players interested in the series.

The familiar look and feel of the DOA series has returned, which translates into a fast and smooth fighting game that is easy to get into for new and returning gamers. However, a great number of tactics, moves and combinations are waiting underneath the surface if the player can put the time and effort into the title. The changes in how to countering attacks are handled may frustrate both the novice and veteran players of the series. In DOA4, the ability to properly counter not only requires the correct timing but predicting where the blows are going to land. This results in a failed counter to open the character open for a massive attack. The A.I. of DOA4 is typical of fighting games but the game will “learn” to a point from those who are random button mashers or those who reuse a move again and again.

The level of graphics used on the characters and interactive backgrounds are some of the best that have been seen on the Xbox 360 to date. Even though the 360 hasn’t been out that long, the amount of animation, detail, color and lighting put into the title will cause players to perform a double check from the sheer beauty or actions occurring in the background. However, the sound effects and soundtrack used for DOA4 are not quite up to the same quality of the graphics, they don’t detract from the title.

The game modes that are offered in DOA4 include story, time attack, versus, survival, team battle, sparring, watch and DOA online. The story mode is the best way for players to get accustomed to the fighters as well as opening hidden characters and costumes. Story mode includes the typical setup of most fighter games with a series of fights culminating with a typical DOA movie capstoning the victory. These movies range from being bizarre to hilarious; however the real prize as stated above is the access to the unlockable achievements. The other modes, including DOA online, offer the ability to unlock even more of the DOA4 treasures. Survival, time attack, sparring and team battle mode will help prep the player for the onslaught that awaits in DOA online. The DOA online experience includes a virtual arcade where the player creates an arcade lobby area and an avatar to personalize the experience. The lobby offers the experience of mingling with other players while watching the sparring, as was the common place during the heyday of arcades in the late 70s through the early 90s. Up to sixteen players can join a single arcade lobby and the numerous gameplay variants can spice up the action based on the number and skill of players. For example, the loser-stays mode allows the less skilled or lucky player to keep facing opponents to hopefully improve their skills. The amount of lag experienced during online play was very minimal in this reviewer’s fourteen hours of online play. However, there is a obvious lag in watching a match but this disappears when it becomes the player’s turn to enter into the fray.

In conclusion, DOA4 is presently the best fighting game out on the market in both action and graphics. However, time will tell if DOA4 will maintain itself as the top dog in the fighting games in the upcoming year. To get the most of out this title, Xbox Live! is a necessity. Finally, if you are not someone who really enjoys fighting games and will squeeze this title for its money’s worth then I would wait until the price drops.


The Good
-The graphics.
-Online gameplay.
-Fast and furious gameplay.

The Bad
- The change in countering.

The Ugly
- Casual players will miss out on the depth of the title.

Score: http://www.evilavatar.com/images/icons/e4_5.jpg
4 1/2 EvilEyes out of 5.
MSRP: $59.99.


http://www.evilavatar.com/images/thumbs/doa4.jpg

[Kelegacy]

Most casual gamers missed the depth of the fighting in Virtual Figher 4: Evolution, as well. People still call the game slow and boring, but it's one of the deepest fighters around.

If it isn't fast and furious or feature weapons where you can slice someone in the head multiple times and not have them die (Soul Calibur) people lose interest.

[GrinR]

Complexity is often mistaken for depth. My need to memorize 20-100 button combos in order to master a fighter doesn't make the game deep - it makes it complex.

Bushido Blade was deep, DOA is complex.

[Nighthold]

Here here!

[DoubleUranium]

I wish someone would make a new Bushido Blade, preferrably based on the first one and not the sequel.

[Splat]

Er, what exactly is the change in countering?

[dotbomb]

Can't wait for my copy to arrive. Picked up Ninja Gaiden Black as well (never owned an xbox...) and all I can say is Team Ninja gets two thumbs way up! Going to be hard to get legit work done around here when that game is sitting in the living room. Going to be worse when DOA4 arrives.

[SymetriX]

I enjoyed the review, but I'm not sure I agree with listing the change in countering under "the bad".

Earlier DOAs became countering-festivals with people spamming out counters all day.

Now, countering is more skill than luck, and you'll definately pay if you make a mistake, which discourages spamming and forces you to block, throw, and attack more.

It may be hard to learn if you're used to the old way, but I think the game engine is more solid with the changes, and I would definitely list it as "The Good", but thats just my 2 cents.

[danhoo]

Er, what exactly is the change in countering?

From the IGN review:

The counter system will, however, make or break your love for the game. While we weren't able to get an exact breakdown of the frame count in DOA4, the window of opportunity for counters has probably decreased in frame count by nearly half. So, if you had about 22 frames for the old counter system, you'll have about 12, maybe 13 or 14 for this new one. The result is a far greater level of precision to execute a counter, making them harder to pull off. Additionally, each counter doesn't do as much damage. This significantly affects every aspect of the game. Before, you basically had a giant counter bonanza at your fingertips. Now, counters are neither free nor easy. You'll have to time the opponent's attacks at a high, mid, or low level in addition to throws (a second mid level) with a press of a button and a direction to counter.

Personally, this sounds like a good move by Team Ninja -- DOA2 & 3 put a little bit too much emphasis on countering.

[SymetriX]

Er, what exactly is the change in countering?
There is a smaller window of opportunity to execute a counter, and there are now two mid counters, one for punch and one for kick.

It also seems like you are vulnerable longer after a missed counter, so you can't spam them out as quickly. You'll also receive extra damage from attacks after a missed counter.

It doesn't make countering impossible, it just makes it more skill than luck. It's now a bigger accomplishment to counter someone, and not just something anyone can do and get lucky.

Breaking up the mid counters also helps because so many combos end with a mid attack. Now you are rewarded for mixing up combos to end with a punch or a kick, instead of being limited to just ending them low or high.

[GrinR]

Like I said, complex.

I'm still waiting for a game where I can simply sidestep, or circle an enemy to get them into a corner, or use my environment to win, or where endurance matters, or where damage is modeled per-limb, or.. or...

Pretty much anything but the Street Fighter redux we've seen - since Street Fighter.

[EternalGamer]

I recieved a copy of DOA4 from Gamefly in the mail yesterday. Excited, I put it in my 360. But literaly 10 minutes later, I was sealing it back up in the return envelope. During my 10 minutes of "extensive" play, I had enough time to beat the game with two character (Ryu and Hitomi) and become completely and totally bored out of my mind in the process. I attempted to bring up the move list a few times and learn some of the attacks, but the pace of the game was so quick as to discourage me from taking the time to learn the ten million "secret codes" that pass for special moves.

I had an incredible paradigm shift as I realized that this is what all fighting game are now-a-days-- their "gameplay" essential revolves around entering a series of arbitrary button presses (but sometimes carefully timed arbitrary button presses whooo!!!) to see on screen characters flail their limbs about in a frentic manner. Binding a command to a particular action maybe limiting, but at least it helps create a belief that your actions on the controller are tied in a direct fashion to the actions of the on screen character. When I hit "A Up A A A X" and then my character proceeds to flip about wildly doing a variety of actions that I can not in anyway link to the buttons I pressed and then I press Down A A A A X and my character proceeds to flip around in a completely different but equally disconnected manner, the illusion of a binding become player and character is completely and totally shattered. It becomes something more akin to Dragons Lair where you are just entering arbitrary codes so that the onscreen action continues. It becomes a very very lame excuse for "gameplay."

I'm sure alot of fighting fans will find a lot to dig about this game, but a word of warning to those who are not fans of this genre: this game will seem equally retarded to you as all the others, it just looks prettier. I remember when I used to love fighting games: Street Fighter, Virtua Fighter, and even Tekken (up to number 3) I played an awful lot. But for me, the pace in modern fighters has just become too ridiculiously over-the-top fast and erratic. I have no love for DOA or any other of it's hyper-combo games. Whether you have to "time" your "dial a telephone number" combos or not, they are still incredibly banal.

Dan

[Heretic Machine]

I recieved a copy of DOA4 from Gamefly in the mail yesterday. Excited, I put it in my 360 but litteraly 10 minutes later, I was sealing it back up in the return envelope. During my 10 minutes of "extensive" play, I had enough time to beat the game with two character (Ryu and Hitomi) and become completely and totally bored out of my mind in the process. I attempted to bring up the move list a few times and learn some of the attacks, but the pace of the game was so quick as to discourage me from taking the time to learn the ten million "secret codes" that pass for special moves. I had a sudden paradigm shift as I realized that this is what all fighting game are now-a-days-- their "gameplay" essential revolves around entering a series of arbitrary button presses (but sometimes carefully timed arbitrary button presses whooo!!!) to see on screen characters flail their limbs about in a frentic manner.

I'm sure alot of fighting fans will find a lot to dig about this game, but a word of warning to those who are not fans of this genre: this game will seem equally retarded to you as all the others, it just looks prettier. I remember when I used to love fighting games: Street Fighter, Virtua Fighter, and even Tekken (up to number 3) I played an awful lot. But for me, the pace in modern fighters has just become too ridiculiously over-the-top fast and erratic. I have no love for DOA or any other of it's hyper-combo games. Whether you have to "time" your "dial a telephone number" combos or not, they are still incredibly lame.

Dan

Dan

Just so you know, fighters don't take long to beat with multiple characters... and as far as DOA's move sheet goes, you don't need to memorize it. It's meant to be somewhat intuitive. Though, some people don't seem to understand this...

[Adam Blue]

Complexity is often mistaken for depth. My need to memorize 20-100 button combos in order to master a fighter doesn't make the game deep - it makes it complex.

Bushido Blade was deep, DOA is complex.

Are we talking about the same DOA?

[GrinR]

2 LOLs:

1. "Whether you have to "time" your "dial a telephone number" combos or not, they are still incredibly lame."

Hilarious, and hits it dead on.

2. "It's meant to be somewhat intuitive. Though, some people don't seem to understand this..."

Intuitive: "spontaneously derived from or prompted by a natural tendency; "an intuitive revulsion"

Understand: "know and comprehend the nature or meaning of"

You don't understand intuitive things, you simply do them naturally. That's the point.

[Kelegacy]

2 LOLs:

1. "Whether you have to "time" your "dial a telephone number" combos or not, they are still incredibly lame."

Hilarious, and hits it dead on.

2. "It's meant to be somewhat intuitive. Though, some people don't seem to understand this..."

Intuitive: "spontaneously derived from or prompted by a natural tendency; "an intuitive revulsion"

Understand: "know and comprehend the nature or meaning of"

You don't understand intuitive things, you simply do them naturally. That's the point.

Oooohh, BURN!

[GrinR]

Are we talking about the same DOA?

I think so... I bought DOA4 the day it came out. I forgot that it's still the same 2D axis it was, unfortunately. For some crazy reason I recalled rotating around my opponent as if I was in real 3D. Stupid, I know.

(note: I say this all without sarcasm)

[EternalGamer]

Just so you know, fighters don't take long to beat with multiple characters... and as far as DOA's move sheet goes, you don't need to memorize it. It's meant to be somewhat intuitive. Though, some people don't seem to understand this...


There is nothing intuitive about me hitting "X, X, X, Up, X" and then watching my character do an arbitrary set of stylistic limb flailings. This is especially true when hiiting "Back, X, X, X, Up, X" makes them do a completely different set of stylistic limb flailings. The individual button presses no longer have any contextual binding to them. It would be like if you were playing Contra only the goal was to keep up with the rhythm of the in game music and your character succeeds in dodging bullets based upon your ability to input random button sequences on time. Imagine a Contra "rhythm and music game" whereby you watch your character dance around and shoot enemies by pressing buttons that appear at the bottom fo the screen. Modern fighters are only one step away from this level of lameness.

Dan

[GrinR]

Oooohh, BURN!

Really not intended as an insult at all - I just thought it was funny.

[GrinR]

I'm with Dan on this one (obviously). I think in part, having participated in some MMA myself, it really accentuates just how little control you have over your fighter when you want to do something as basic as move out of the fucking way when someone is running at you - and you can't. You must stand there, or attempt to time a combo-key command. It's very, very counterintuitive.

[EternalGamer]

I realize that all this changes somewhat as the point is that rhythm games are alway the same mindless button pressing combinations while the button presses change depending on the context of the current fight, especially with human opponents. But with the way there are no specific connections between the inputs and the actions on screen, it ends up more like a dialogue based on a set rhythm. Player 1 is all like I'll "X, X, X Up, X" and Player 2 is all like "Well if you're gonna X,X,X, Up, X" then I'll "Y, Y, Back, Forward, Y!" And Player one is all like, well then, I'll "Y, X, Y" you're "Y,Y, Back Foward, Y!" It's like some stupid game of trying to "secret code" each other to death.

Dan

[EternalGamer]

I'm with Dan on this one (obviously). I think in part, having participated in some MMA myself, it really accentuates just how little control you have over your fighter when you want to do something as basic as move out of the fucking way when someone is running at you - and you can't. You must stand there, or attempt to time a combo-key command. It's very, very counterintuitive.


BUt don't you see? WHen they X,X, Y, Forward, Y" you can "Y, Y Forward, Up, Y" them right back! See? Intuitive!

Dan

[Kelegacy]

Really not intended as an insult at all - I just thought it was funny.
Me, too. As a connoisseur of language, I can appreciate using the actual definition of words to checkmate confused definitions.

[Steve_Erhardt]

I'm with Dan on this one (obviously). I think in part, having participated in some MMA myself, it really accentuates just how little control you have over your fighter when you want to do something as basic as move out of the fucking way when someone is running at you - and you can't. You must stand there, or attempt to time a combo-key command. It's very, very counterintuitive.
Agreed; though I've said all along I've always felt a very bothersome "disconnect" between what I do on the controller and what the DoA character's doing on the screen. DoA4 is no different, unfortunately. I love seeing all these cool moves happen on the screen. I just wish I felt more like it was because I meant it, and not because I'm furiously rapping away on buttons and slapping the directional control around like a crack monkey with palsy hoping I get a hit on the opponent to break their latest 12-hit combo on my sorry ass.

That said, I'm having enough fun with it to keep playing, and I still consider it money well spent, but it's definitely another example of why the DoA series will never be one of my favorites.

[mister_slim]

I had an incredible paradigm shift as I realized that this is what all fighting game are now-a-days-- their "gameplay" essential revolves around entering a series of arbitrary button presses (but sometimes carefully timed arbitrary button presses whooo!!!) to see on screen characters flail their limbs about in a frentic manner. Binding a command to a particular action maybe limiting, but at least it helps create a belief that your actions on the controller are tied in a direct fashion to the actions of the on screen character. When I hit "A Up A A A X" and then my character proceeds to flip about wildly doing a variety of actions that I can not in anyway link to the buttons I pressed and then I press Down A A A A X and my character proceeds to flip around in a completely different but equally disconnected manner, the illusion of a binding become player and character is completely and totally shattered. It becomes something more akin to Dragons Lair where you are just entering arbitrary codes so that the onscreen action continues. It becomes a very very lame excuse for "gameplay."
Nicely said. I think the reason I enjoy Soul Calibur more than other fighters (though I couldn't really get into III) is that the moves are very contextual (generally). It feels like the combination of the movement and the attack button (vertical, kick, etc) leads naturally to the particular move, and the animation emphasizes that fluidness. DOA feels more like controlling a puppet, where I have to learn what arbitrary movement leads to what arbitrary action.

[MosBen]

I think fighting games have gotten to the point where the hardcore crowd are so important to the genre that they can't afford to make a game that doesn't cater to their tastes. I was happy playing at the level of complexity that games like Street Fighter offered, just like I was happy with the level of complexity in Dune 2000. Now both genres have gotten to the point where success is really defined at a level that I'm simply not interested in achieving. Memorizing 20 hit combos or being able to tell what a character is doing based on two frames of movement just isn't what I call fun, it's work.

Who knows, maybe it's that the single player portions of fighting games are so perfunctory that they don't teach you anything. Whereas with some games you play the single player game and by the end you naturally acquire the skills you need to succeed fighting games require you to practice on your own time. That may be part of it, but I still doubt that there's really a way to make long memorization fun in what has been accurately been called a dressed up rhythm game.

At least I still have the brawler genre.

[Benanovich Jaminovski]

Not to be overly negative but did anyone actually read that review?

I mean i get that EA isn't known for its journalistic merit but i mean come on, for an in house review that was pretty poor.

I know i'm being an ass but a 13 year old could have written a better review.

...i feel a ban coming on.

damn.

[Kelegacy]

Not to be overly negative but did anyone actually read that review?

I mean i get that EA isn't known for its journalistic merit but i mean come on, for an in house review that was pretty poor.

I know i'm being an ass but a 13 year old could have written a better review.

...i feel a ban coming on.

damn.

Ouch, dude. That was a little harsh, I think.

[Everlost_MI]

Not to be overly negative but did anyone actually read that review?

I mean i get that EA isn't known for its journalistic merit but i mean come on, for an in house review that was pretty poor.

I know i'm being an ass but a 13 year old could have written a better review.

...i feel a ban coming on.

damn.

If you can write a better review, then do it. Back up your words.

For the record, I would never request someone who has an opposing or negative opinion to be banned. That's childish even for a 12 ½ year old hack like myself.

[Benanovich Jaminovski]

well i know... but i mean as a pretty respected news source its not a great thing to have sub par reviews i feel.

I dont mean to be an ass about it it's just i feel EA can be better than this. I'd try to say no disrespect to the author but i already have pretty much disrespected him, but i feel that the fact nobody has picked him/her up on this kinda shows something about the community here i.e. not actually reading the news post itself.

EDIT: I'd happily write a review if i had access to the game, it's not out here yet as far as i know but i'd expect anyone to pull me up aswell if it were a poor review.

EDIT2: Sorry about the disrespect by the way, i was a little drunk when i wrote this and didn't realise that i didn't apologise for it, even though i highlighted it.

[Mozain]

I think fighting games have gotten to the point where the hardcore crowd are so important to the genre that they can't afford to make a game that doesn't cater to their tastes.

I am not sure what "Hardcore" crowd your talking about really.... I like to consider myself pretty Hardcore about fighting games, same with my friends (Infact fighting games comprise about 90% of my game library). I definatly do not find DOA that "Hardcore". To point this out, since I am a Hardcore fighting game type guy, I will be buying an X-box360 soely on the premesis of playing DOA 4, which I am not a huge fan of but find enjoyable with my friends (Tag team, and have the disposible income to do such things). Just like I bought the Original X-Box when GGX:Reloaded was released and solely to own that game for which I already owned the PS2 version of (GG is my favorite fighter of all time). But you do not need skill to play a game like DOA. It is a button mashing fighter, much like say Bloody Roar (God I wish they would make another one of those.... One that wasn't BR 4). My friend owns DOA 4, and he plays is quite alot, then I come over, don't know any moves, hit the buttons and win. Go figure.... The reason its a button masher isn't that just anyone can pick up and win easily against skilled players (Prehaps hes not that good? But he does quite well online.), its that every button-directional combination does something. You can hit any button, moving any way and you will do something that works. Can't say that for... Oh, Street Fighter, or Guilty Gear. Infact I think the only true "hardcore fighter" type people are like me.... And I'll see you at the arcade, squished in next to the asians playing Third Strike and countering like mad!

[Achilles]

I didn’t mind the changes to the reversal system. They made it harder to do, but it’s still easier than in SC, or any of the other fighting games.

What I mind is the paper-thin single player. The story mode is okay (the endings are great), but why are you never fighting anything other than one guy? They have tag mechanics, why not have Hayate and Ayane double team you?

They don’t do any of the more modern things with their single player that Soul Calibur 3 is doing. Stuff like a branching story mode with quick-timer events, and other modes of play are very important for keeping single player interesting for more than the 3-5 hours it’ll take you to beat it with every character.

My other complaint about it is that the AI does nothing to help you learn how to fight a human opponent. If it wants to reverse it’ll just do it, no matter how interesting and varied you make your attacks, and so on. They should have made fighting the AI like fighting a human opponent so that it encourages the player to learn different moves, use feints, and other sorts of things that would help them in the multi-player, or at least make the single player more predictable and fair. Even the lowest level AI will stop nearly every throw. What's up with that? I have yet to be able to stop a throw against a human, but working throws into your strategy is actively punished by the AI opponents.

I've put probably 30 hours into the single player, and it's nothing compared to Soul Calibur 3, though it easily could be given what they have to work with.

[Achilles]

I definatly do not find DOA that "Hardcore". To point this out, since I am a Hardcore fighting game type guy, I will be buying an X-box360 soely on the premesis of playing DOA 4, which I am not a huge fan of but find enjoyable with my friends (Tag team, and have the disposible income to do such things).I don't think there's one person in the hardcore fighting game community that considers DOA a hardcore series, or DOA 4 a hardcore game. It's easy to play actually. Easier to play than Tekken or VF for sure, because the moves behave intuitively, and you can pull them off without extremely practiced timing. The counter window in DOA4 is like 11 frames. In SC3 it's what? 9? In Street Fighter it's 5. In DOA 4 you can also reverse someone after they've already hit you, which you can't do in the other games. I like how this system works actually, I find it a lot friendlier, but it is certainly not hardcore.

There was talk earlier of dial-a-combo type games and how the moves aren't intuitive. DOA isn't like that, you push the kick button while holding 'down' and you kick low generally speaking. Press it while holding 'up' and you kick high. Want to back away from your opponent press away twice. Want to run toward them, press toward twice. Tekken is actually the most abstract fight system I've played recently. DOA and SC3 would be the least abstract.

[Pumped'Up]

Final Fight is the best fighting game ever. Final answer!

[mightbe]

I'm with Dan on this one (obviously). I think in part, having participated in some MMA myself, it really accentuates just how little control you have over your fighter when you want to do something as basic as move out of the fucking way when someone is running at you - and you can't. You must stand there, or attempt to time a combo-key command. It's very, very counterintuitive.

You more of a UFC or Pride man? I'm a huge fan of MMA. I cry like a sissy when I get hit though. I've been hooked on the UFC since I met Chuck Lidell at E3 a handful of years back.

I just wish they'd make another good game in the vein of the UFC for Dreamcast.

[EternalGamer]

Achilles, that may be true of the basic attacks, but the meat of the game is the combo system, which does not hold up to that "intuitive" claim. There is nothing Intuitive about pressing "Up, Guard+Kickx3 to watch Ryu go spinning through the air and his opponent a bunch of times. I suppose in the vaguest since I am presssing "up" and he is attacking high, but there is still no binding connection between each button press (in a combo) and the action that results from it.

Dan

[Achilles]

Achilles, that may be true of the basic attacks, but the meat of the game is the combo system, which does not hold up to that "intuitive" claim. There is nothing Intuitive about pressing "Up, Guard+Kickx3 to watch Ryu go spinning through the air and his opponent a bunch of times. I suppose in the vaguest since I am presssing "up" and he is attacking high, but there is still no binding connection between each button press (in a combo) and the action that results from it.

DanAh see you're thinking of it too technically, I think. Most fighting games can be broken down into mashing the type of attack you want to do while holding in the direction of the height you want to attack at. You can do extremely well with that method even against veteran players as I was doing today at SC3 (I know like 4 moves in that game, and intuit all the rest while mashing square and triangle in different ways). All that matters is what height your attack is coming in at so you can get around their block, apart from that if the button mashing makes your character do anything at that height, mission accomplished.

Generally you can also tell if the attack will move you toward your opponent or away usually, since attacks that move you toward the opponent have you pressing forward, and attacks that move you away usually have you pressing away.

If you want to get way technical about it as the hardcore gamers do, than go for it, but you don't really need that to enjoy the game, or even beat hardcore gamers on occasion. The disadvantage is that since you don’t really know what you’re asking your guy to do, you’ll on occasion do something freaky as you mentioned. It would be nice if those freaky things were more intuitive, but hardcore fans like them abstracted, probably because the game being hard to play gives them a bigger advantage.

Some characters are also more freaky than others, and you'll probably want to find one that suits your playstyle and seems intuitive to you. Brad-Wong, for example, is not your guy. Neither is Voldo.

That's all just my opinion by the way.

[Balthasar]

Most casual gamers missed the depth of the fighting in Virtual Figher 4: Evolution, as well. People still call the game slow and boring, but it's one of the deepest fighters around.

If it isn't fast and furious or feature weapons where you can slice someone in the head multiple times and not have them die (Soul Calibur) people lose interest.
I think it's more that Virtua Fighter has a harder learning curve just for basic entry, whereas a game like Soul Caliber can be picked up by anyone and played on a very basic level. If you're implying that SC isn't a very deep fighter, I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

[Balthasar]

The counter window in DOA4 is like 11 frames. In SC3 it's what? 9? In Street Fighter it's 5. In DOA 4 you can also reverse someone after they've already hit you, which you can't do in the other games.
Is it really 9? I would have figured much lower, like 5. I've never been terribly adept at countering in SC. But in SC, you can counter-counters, if that's what you mean. I can't remember if you can counter those special moves that themselves are counters that turn into hits (such as Cassandra's counter-to-flying shield move)

There was talk earlier of dial-a-combo type games and how the moves aren't intuitive. DOA isn't like that, you push the kick button while holding 'down' and you kick low generally speaking. Press it while holding 'up' and you kick high. Want to back away from your opponent press away twice. Want to run toward them, press toward twice. Tekken is actually the most abstract fight system I've played recently. DOA and SC3 would be the least abstract.
I don't know how much I can agree with that myself, being an avid Tekken player. It feels less abstract to me, because unlike those other fighters, when you hit right punch, you will punch with your right hand, and when you hit left kick, well, you're going to kick with your left foot. SC has a vaguely defined "vertical" and "horizontal" slash, which only generally tells you the plane on which your attack can strike. That seems somewhat abstract to me.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

How can you not love DOA?

Can anyone post a screen,or link to, of the guy who gropes a female character[cant picture who it was so Im not sure] in the CG cutcene on the train.

[bapenguin]

On the intuitive comment. I'd say this. DOA 4 is 3 buttons. I guess technically 4. The way moves are execute are natural. For instance, Up and any button is high attack/counter/block. Down and any button etc. While you are fighting your natural tendency is to do that with the D-Pad. If someone is coming at you, you have a tendency to push back on the d-pad...now depending on what's coming at you you can counter that attack. I think that's where the intuitive controls come in. The game has a certain flow to it that's just beautiful. Most other fighting games have at least 6 or so attack/defend buttons.

I find that I really don't need to memorize moves in this game to have an effective round, in fact, I find that if I try to execute moves that I remember I lose.

Excellent review Everlost...there's really not a whole lot you CAN say about a fighting game.

[Morratut]

I loved DOA2 and 3. For me the countering was best then. I returned DOA Ultimate after not really playing it. I was so dissapointed with the laggy online part of the game and plus for me DOA is still on a 2D plane. You can't really move around the 3D arena easily and move out of the way of players moves unlike SC2. Many a game on DOA Ultimate I found if you got the first move in you would win. A round lasted 10 seconds.

For me my favorite 3D beat em up is still Soul Calibur and Soul Calibur 2. I had no problems in countering in Soul Calibur 2. I've had some truly great battles with my friends on that game. Sometimes the fights due to countering and dodging took on a capoeira like fluidity. Great and exciting.

I found it much harder to counter in DOA Ultimate. If the time has been cut in half again reg countering then I may have to wait for another fighter.

Still a part of me wants to try DOA though because i'm a fighting fan :confused:

*EDIT*

By the way Everlost I enjoyed the review. For me it was well written review which covered a lot of my questions about the game.

[Balthasar]

On the intuitive comment. I'd say this. DOA 4 is 3 buttons. I guess technically 4. The way moves are execute are natural. For instance, Up and any button is high attack/counter/block. Down and any button etc. While you are fighting your natural tendency is to do that with the D-Pad. If someone is coming at you, you have a tendency to push back on the d-pad...now depending on what's coming at you you can counter that attack. I think that's where the intuitive controls come in. The game has a certain flow to it that's just beautiful. Most other fighting games have at least 6 or so attack/defend buttons.
Tekken only has 4, unless you count pressing back for defend, and SC only has 4 as well. Which games were you thinking of?

I find that I really don't need to memorize moves in this game to have an effective round, in fact, I find that if I try to execute moves that I remember I lose.
Sounds like a defining characteristic of a button-masher.

[Taco]

Soul Calibur on the Dreamcast will forever be my #1. Never got into DOA and the followups for Soul Calibur all suck.

[bapenguin]

Tekken only has 4, unless you count pressing back for defend, and SC only has 4 as well. Which games were you thinking of?


Sounds like a defining characteristic of a button-masher.

Button mashing tends to get me killed a lot faster. I'm definitely carefully picking how I attack.

I forgot Tekken has 4, I guess I was thinking more along the lines MK, SF, VF, etc.

[IagoTheHunted]

memorizing combos for yet another fighting game = boreing chore.

I could pick apart the game for hours but in the end that's all that matters.

[morose]

Tekken is definitely amongst the most technical of fighters. A good Tekken player is extremely hard to defeat, button mashing character or not. Personally? While I think that's great for some, I like that the DoA series is more accessible. It combines some of the spectacular combos from Tekken with a system that allows you to do well timed, simple attacks and still be competitive. Soul Calibur is much like this as well, hence it's popularity. There is a depth to both games that can be achieved through practice, but both encourage you to think before you attack more than just memorize combos to win. In my opinion anyway. Though this opinion is formed from experiences playing the series in general since I have played no DoA4 (but hours and hours of DoA3) and only 4-5 hours of SC3 (but spent a LOT of time with SC on the Dreamcast and, to a lesser extent, SC2 on my Xbox).

By the way, I'm exceedingly impressed with the general comments about the review. I think it's great that there is so much constructive discussion taking place about the intricacies of fighters and even the complexity of games in general. It almost brings a tear to my eye. ;) Yes, there are some technical issues with the writing in the review itself that more editing might have resolved (sorry Everlost), but it was a good overview without being needlessly detailed just to increase it's length. And hey, only one comment regarding groping in a DoA related thread. Now that... that's just amazing. ;)

[Javi]

Achilles, that may be true of the basic attacks, but the meat of the game is the combo system, which does not hold up to that "intuitive" claim. There is nothing Intuitive about pressing "Up, Guard+Kickx3 to watch Ryu go spinning through the air and his opponent a bunch of times. I suppose in the vaguest since I am presssing "up" and he is attacking high, but there is still no binding connection between each button press (in a combo) and the action that results from it.

Dan

Dan, you make it seem like that these "dial-a-combos" are the only thing in the game. I do see your point, however. It's definitely no Street Fighter or Tekken.

It's definitely not the be-all, end-all in this game. Against other decent players, that dial-a-combo stuff will get you punished. Tecmo did it right with the learning curve of this game - anyone can pick up this game and do pretty little combos, but it takes a bit of skill to be consistient in winning. Not so with Street Fighter... that learning curve is really high. But as a former "hardcore" player, this game is a nice little diversion until SFII: HF reaches the Arcade in Xbox Live.

[EternalGamer]

My problem isn't just with DOA in this sense, I think it's with almost all modern fighters. I have been thinking about this a lot since yesterday. I'm not sure why it is, but when I press the "A" button and the gun fires in Contra I feel like there is a connection between my actions and the characters. If I press "Down" and "A," the gun simply fires down. If I press "Up" and "A" the gun fires up. If I press "A" three times the same three bullets come out of the gun. If I press "Down" and "A" three times, my gun fires down three times.

Now let's compair this same set of actions to a fighting game. If I press "A" my character kicks. Good. But when I press "Down" and "A" they do some sort of spinning circular kick. Ok, now why does simply pressing "down" make her swing her limbs in a circular motion? This gets more confusing when I press "Up" and "A," she does some type of hopping kick. So if I press one direction while I kick, they do a swooping kick, if I press another direction it does a completely different type of motions, a hopping kick.

Things only get worse when I start doing combos. I press "Down" and "A" once and I get the aformentioned swooping kick. But if I press "Down" and "A" three times in a row and I get two swooping kicks following by a outward thrust kick. Um... what's going on here? Doing the same repeated action is leading to different movements on the screen. At this point, in my mind, the binding connetion between my movement of the controller and the character's actions have been completely broken. There is no rhyme or reason why each command = each resulting action.

In other games, once I know the established rules (Controll stick moves my character, "X" button makes him duck, etc.) I can begin to create this connection in my mind between my inputs and his movements. But in fighting games, there are NO consistent input=results. Everything is contextual. If I hit "A" after hitting "Y" a completely different move results than when I hit "A" after hitting "X." What is worse, Pressing "Down" and "A" in no way resembles the action I get on the screen--the swooping circular kick motion. At least in Contra when I press down and A I can see how it relates to the action of aiming a gun downward and shooting. Now this gets complicated in actions that are more contextual. In X-men Legends I might Hit X to open a door and also hit X to pick up an item off the ground. You might say that neither of these button presses direction releates to the action of the character, but at least they are consistent (even if they are contextually so). It doesn't matter which button I had just hit previously or which direction I am facing. Hitting "X" near an item is always going to make my character pick it up off the ground. But even if this involves a series of animations which I watch, it is not a main part of the gameplay activity.

This is an attempt to dissect the diconnect I feel while playing fighting games. Of course, I am not consciously dissecting it in this way while I am playing, but I'm pretty sure this is the type of thought goes through my my subconscious which subsequently realizes it's being tricked. It realizes that I really am not controlling the actions of the character, what I am really doing is putting in a bunch of arbitrary codes in order to watch some onscreen animations. To an extend, this is true of every videogame every made, but the disconnect is much more prominent in fighting games than in any other genre, save the FMV game genre.

Dan

[EternalGamer]

Addendum: The only fighting game I can think of that avoided this sort of problem was Bushido Blade. What a great game. Someone should take that concept and update it, as mentioned earlier.

Dan

[Lord Dongkey]

As a "hardcore DOA 3 player", I personally feel DOA has just as much depth as SC, Street Fighter, and I'm not particularly concerned with Tekken since the delay between button input and action on the screen is long enough that I feel like the entire game flows in a buffered state. :)

Having spent four hours a day managing a *very* slow game store playing DOA against my assistant manager... for about two months, I'm fairly confused by everyone's assumption that just because a button masher can pick up the game and make some things happen, that the game is somehow "less deep". In about 30 matches I played against customers/regulars that had never played the game, I wasn't beaten once. Now, I'm not saying this to claim some form of godly DOA power, but there's a limited spectrum of things a button masher is likely to produce, and there's a slew of attacks with each character that tend to either cirumvent (in a circular break-the-2d-plane kinda way) mashing attacks, or break through them. Do you have to know the "special moves" to make that happen? Of course. But if it's as simple as just doing a fireball motion (much akin to the beloved original street fighter) and hitting kick, or back then forward punch (like a yoga flame or sonic boom without charging, for instance), to perform one of five or ten moves that will smush a button-masher... well, suffice it to say, I'm confused on that point.

As far as depth of a fighter is concerned, I think from an empirical standpoint, no fighter has any more depth than any other. Even a game as simple in construct as the original Street Fighter II reached levels of depth comparable to the fighters in the modern day. The psychological warfare, feints, taunts, and everything in between - these things are universal to any game in which one person plays against another, and that's where the true depth of gameplay lies, in my opinion. A match between amazingly skilled Street Fighter II players, much like a match on DOA, or SC, or a deathmatch in Doom 1/2/3, all of these things are icebergs, with 90% of the real happenings going on in ways a less skilled/less experienced player wouldn't even consider. Once a player has a complete mastery of the building blocks of their interaction with their environment, the depth of gameplay opens up and is only limited by the creativity and speed with which the player can make things happen. Do some games allow more control over that environment? Sure. Are some more complex? Yeah. But we should all know by now that complex != fun, something Nintendo has evidently known for years.

As for intuitive vs. counterintuitive... I think the first comment throwing out the concept of "understanding" something "intuitive" was a mis-perception on the part of the people that read that.

"It's meant to be somewhat intuitive. Though, some people don't seem to understand this..."

Some people don't seem to understand what the control system was *meant* to be. Not some people don't understand that it's intuitive. It's entirely within the realm of possibility to understand someone's intentions.

Control schemes by their nature aren't intuitive, however. What part of hitting a little red button making a plumber leap into the air is intuitive? Or hitting... the same little red button to make the guy on the screen pull a trigger and shoot bullets... hitting right on a little + pad to make a super-high-speed futuristic racecar lean to the right to steer that direction (although technically the viewport on the screen changes and your car remains stationary...). The entire reason behind the new controller in the Revolution, aside from being new and all that, is that your "average" joe/jane won't pick up a controller on a game and just start playing... because they're not intuitive. A steering wheel for Burnout? Intuitive. A gun for Time Crises? Intuitive. Any control scheme on any fighting game that involves a stick, d-pad, and little buttons?

Meh.

I know there's a boat load of people that will disagree with me, and it's the same mentality of everyone wanting their precious favorites to be the best, but the reality is, they're all good enough that someone, somewhere, is willing to buy them, and debating which is deeper and which is better ad nauseam is... well, it's what we do here on these forums. ;) I say, hat's off to anyone willing to write a review to help somebody else out - free of charge.

So now that I've written a damned novel, I will return to my relative obscurity and hibernate until some other post/thread bothers me enough to warrent a response. :)

[bapenguin]

This is why I love this forum. Excellent posts Eternal Gamer and Lord Dongkey. And welcome to the forum Dongkey! Both well worded arguments providing valid points for both sides.

[Xerxes]

Agreed; though I've said all along I've always felt a very bothersome "disconnect" between what I do on the controller and what the DoA character's doing on the screen. DoA4 is no different, unfortunately. I love seeing all these cool moves happen on the screen. I just wish I felt more like it was because I meant it, and not because I'm furiously rapping away on buttons and slapping the directional control around like a crack monkey with palsy hoping I get a hit on the opponent to break their latest 12-hit combo on my sorry ass.



I've always felt a nice connect. One that only eddy could offer me in Tekken or rapheal in soul caliber. Normally consider "cheap characters". Maybe it's cause i use to alot of capoeiristas and fights but I still thing he was a well done character, even with his mild exaggerations. I just like that martial art and even fencing for that matter. I burned alot of hours trying to just play with them and learn how to move them until it was intuitive/instinct. With street fighter it was like always trying to get that fireball off.

Then we get the over exaggerated with doa which is much akin to controlling superhumans. I meean the way the way they toss each other around at such speed isn't exactly a more grounded game like the VF series. Yes it's slow. More so compared to the DOA series. It is one button smashers could love or get tired of. I've made button smashers want to want to play more through tourneys. Just talking to folks before it starts they say crap like the game ain't hard, I'd wish we was playing something better like tekken, you don't have to know nothing to win and all of those could be true in there eyes. But when I play as Ryu or Bayman, it's different. Much like Raphael and Eddy, it's about a offensive hurricane. Stop it if you can. Some folks thought it was easy but you can move so fast and hit so hard and just going until it's like fuck. DOA3 counter was shady and I remember folks getting a few lucky shots in. But that's like standing in a room with some one swing their arms like windmills and you have to hit them ten times without them even touching you. It's a good chance they might tap you once or even twice. They can even block too, but you have low point, mid point, and high point to connect. Where is it going. With Ryu it's damn near like controlling him with my mind. I don't know what the hell my fingers are doing. If someone said whats the command for my favorite kick or some shit I wouldn't know. How do you do the Izura Bomb Drop or whateva it's called? I don't know I just see a chance and he does it.

Hating DOA is like hating macs. We all do it for now reason at all other than it's not the other product we use or even like.

[Xerxes]

I find that I really don't need to memorize moves in this game to have an effective round, in fact, I find that if I try to execute moves that I remember I lose.


Yeah and doctors would kill people if they went in trying to memorize shit too. They been practicing over and over again on fake dead folks and all and even when they make it to the table shit could occur thats instinct. I mean if blood comes out of somewhere it isn't supposed to he's not going or shouldn't be taking a time out to try and figure out what's next. It's chop chop in that, and it's should just click on whatever it is he needs to do to fix em up. Much like it should snap on what you need your avatar on screen to do to not get thrown off a cliff.

I've seen one guy who was able to block damn near everything. He was pure counter. And instead of a offensive onslaught i relied on he beat folks with a countering onslaught. Not even luck, he just knew where you heading. Didn't want to tell me how he was always able to act on it in time in the right spot too.

[Achilles]

I've seen one guy who was able to block damn near everything. He was pure counter. And instead of a offensive onslaught i relied on he beat folks with a countering onslaught. Not even luck, he just knew where you heading. Didn't want to tell me how he was always able to act on it in time in the right spot too.The problem that some hardcore fighting game fans have with DOA is that you can do nothing but counter. They think the combo, regular attack game is too weak compared to the counter/throw game. I'm not sure if I agree since I mostly just attack and I have yet to find someone who will just beat me all the time using only counters and throws.

[EternalGamer]

As for intuitive vs. counterintuitive... I think the first comment throwing out the concept of "understanding" something "intuitive" was a mis-perception on the part of the people that read that.

"It's meant to be somewhat intuitive. Though, some people don't seem to understand this..."

Some people don't seem to understand what the control system was *meant* to be. Not some people don't understand that it's intuitive. It's entirely within the realm of possibility to understand someone's intentions.

Control schemes by their nature aren't intuitive, however. What part of hitting a little red button making a plumber leap into the air is intuitive? Or hitting... the same little red button to make the guy on the screen pull a trigger and shoot bullets... hitting right on a little + pad to make a super-high-speed futuristic racecar lean to the right to steer that direction (although technically the viewport on the screen changes and your car remains stationary...). The entire reason behind the new controller in the Revolution, aside from being new and all that, is that your "average" joe/jane won't pick up a controller on a game and just start playing... because they're not intuitive. A steering wheel for Burnout? Intuitive. A gun for Time Crises? Intuitive. Any control scheme on any fighting game that involves a stick, d-pad, and little buttons?


The control scheme for Super Mario Bros, might not be intuitive but at least it is universal. Pressing A, at anytime in the entire game is going to make me jump. Pressing B is always going to make me run. Once I get over that initial "gap" by assigning my button presses to the onscreen action, player and character are united as one. This never happens in a game like Dragon's Lair, where pressing "Up" does nothing more than trigger a specific video sequence, and the resulting animation is different EVERY TIME I press it. This is less the case with modern fighters---there is certainly more consistency and less contextualism than FMV games, but compaired to all other genres of videogames, they have evolved to becoming the closest to reaching this level of non-interactivity. When the gameplay button presses become this contextual, it becomes impossible for the player to make immediate associations between their actions on the controller with the onscreen animations that result. This is the experience I had playing D04, I just felt like I was trying to memorize a series of secret codes and watching resulting animations. It is also the only genre where the word "button masher" applies. When people can play games "successfully" without consciously intending the on screen results, you have a serious problem. The entire modern fighting genre is plagued by this very problem.

Dan

[Xerxes]

Achilles this guy was a monster... When i say I attack like a hurricane, without pause and full force, his defensive was as strong. And I don't mean I am a lame button smashing when i attack hurricane, I have control and know what the hell I'm doing. I have Ryu down to instinct. I couldn't beat him 100% and I think after a while he figured me out. Sure he worked at the Game Crazy and didn't play anything else but it was crazy how he did button smashers. He had a good offense too. Like with Leon, he got cheap. I mean once he countered you the first time he'd fold you like a card table and the chairs that go with it.

[Xerxes]

Addendum: The only fighting game I can think of that avoided this sort of problem was Bushido Blade. What a great game. Someone should take that concept and update it, as mentioned earlier.

Dan

I don't remember that game being that great... I remember running on a beach away from some guy and you could get far away from each other, then turning around and slicing him down. I remember this being a boring expierence that game. O_o

[Achilles]

Achilles this guy was a monster... When i say I attack like a hurricane, without pause and full force, his defensive was as strong. And I don't mean I am a lame button smashing when i attack hurricane, I have control and know what the hell I'm doing. I have Ryu down to instinct. I couldn't beat him 100% and I think after a while he figured me out. Sure he worked at the Game Crazy and didn't play anything else but it was crazy how he did button smashers. He had a good offense too. Like with Leon, he got cheap. I mean once he countered you the first time he'd fold you like a card table and the chairs that go with it.I'd like to see two of those guys go at it and see if the game is balanced at that level of defense. That's the complaint from the hardcore players, that once the game reaches that point attacking is so punished that the game stagnates.

[Xerxes]

I'd like to see someone with my offense and his defense. I'm sure there were folks on the DOA ultimate top board like that but I never had time to fight my way into that class.

[fitbabits]

Nice review, Everlost. Almost makes me want to run out and buy it. I am, however, going to rent it now and I had no intention of doing so before reading the review.

[GrinR]

I don't remember that game being that great... I remember running on a beach away from some guy and you could get far away from each other, then turning around and slicing him down. I remember this being a boring expierence that game. O_o

How is this different from any fighting game? I could do what you describe with Guile just as well as Sub-Zero, or Lily, or ... any fighter. Clearly you missed the core gameplay of Bushido Blade, which was positioning and timing.

[GrinR]

"Hating DOA is like hating macs. We all do it for now reason at all other than it's not the other product we use or even like."

First of all, I don't think there is a lot of HATE here. I just think a lot of us are not inspired to play the type of game DOA offers.

Second, the age old argument of "if you understood it properly, you'd like it" has never held water. People who have bothered to learn and/or master the combos in a particular game are people who liked the game enough to do so from the get-go. I understand what I need to do in order to enjoy DOA - I need to practice the commands (intuitive or not) for enough hours to get to the point where I can make my fighter move the way I want by reflex (and intuition!). This is precisely why I won't ever enjoy it, because the distance between beginner and master is far, far too long.

I've had this discussion/argument many times before in the MOG context. Some people think that WoW is a kiddie MOG for "losers" who don't have the "gamer spirit/balls/hardkore ethic" to play a real MOG like Eve or Everquest or AO, where the TIME between a new player and a maxed character is measured in years instead of months. The perspective is that you have to earn your entertainment through pain, and if you don't then you're not "serious" about the game.

This type of argument belongs in the schoolyard, where participants actually have all the time in the world and don't have anything else to be "serious" about.

When I want to play a game, a fighting game in this instance, I want to be able to at least master control of my avatar right away. After that, I want to master the environment PDQ. THEN, I want to spend time mastering my opponents (live or otherwise), and it's fine if that takes a short while or a much longer while. I do not want to spend time "working" to earn the reward of playing the game - I work at work, and earn the reward of enough money to BUY the game. Good games keep this initial learning curve very very shallow and make it deeper as you go (*cough* Street Fighter *cough* Soul Caliber *cough*) - bad games have a shallow learning curve for a "target audience" as in fans of the previous iteration. I think DOA4 describes that situation.

[Balthasar]

How is this different from any fighting game? I could do what you describe with Guile just as well as Sub-Zero, or Lily, or ... any fighter. Clearly you missed the core gameplay of Bushido Blade, which was positioning and timing.
I remember there was this one character whom, for reasons I could not figure out, would always clash swords with mine whenever we fought. I think it was the next to last or third to last character that always had to be fought. I remember it making the battle feel more visceral somehow. Honestly, though, while I definitely did like it and wanted to see more fighting games like it, it was pretty flawed. I really wish Tekken or Soul Caliber or even Virtua Fighter (which I rarely ever play) would start incorporating some sort of damage model. It might be more adaptable for Tekken because you have so much more control over specific body movements than any other fighter, you could have a character who's left arm is broken and it would more litterally affect how you play without it being superficial.

[GrinR]

I remember there was this one character whom, for reasons I could not figure out, would always clash swords with mine whenever we fought. I think it was the next to last or third to last character that always had to be fought. I remember it making the battle feel more visceral somehow. Honestly, though, while I definitely did like it and wanted to see more fighting games like it, it was pretty flawed. I really wish Tekken or Soul Caliber or even Virtua Fighter (which I rarely ever play) would start incorporating some sort of damage model. It might be more adaptable for Tekken because you have so much more control over specific body movements than any other fighter, you could have a character who's left arm is broken and it would more litterally affect how you play without it being superficial.

No doubt Bushido Blade was flawed. No doubt at all. The sequel was even more flawed. But the core gameplay was great. It had the right idea, and after a few minutes anyone who wanted to play got "the idea" of stances, distance, and timing. It was the definitive anti-button masher.

[Balthasar]

"Hating DOA is like hating macs. We all do it for now reason at all other than it's not the other product we use or even like."
Same here. I don't "hate" DOA so much as I have no interest in it. Perhaps I just don't have any respect for it? I'm not a Virtua Fighter fan at all, but I respect the series, especially VF4.

Good games keep this initial learning curve very very shallow and make it deeper as you go (*cough* Street Fighter *cough* Soul Caliber *cough*) - bad games have a shallow learning curve for a "target audience" as in fans of the previous iteration. I think DOA4 describes that situation.
It's funny you say that, because I'm not sure anyone who actively plays fighting games would call Soul Caliber I-III a "button masher," but it's the only fighting game I have ever gotten a girl to play (let alone girls, plural). They just sat down with hit, tapped a few buttons, and had a blast. They felt like they were actually doing something constructive and learning. Of course, the only way we could play against them without completely destroying them was to adjust the handicap.

[GrinR]

It's funny you say that, because I'm not sure anyone who actively plays fighting games would call Soul Caliber I-III a "button masher," but it's the only fighting game I have ever gotten a girl to play (let alone girls, plural). They just sat down with hit, tapped a few buttons, and had a blast. They felt like they were actually doing something constructive and learning. Of course, the only way we could play against them without completely destroying them was to adjust the handicap.

It's not a button-masher unless you want it to be. I've found that girls play better when you insist they couldn't possibly beat you and they'll give up too fast anyway. That way you've got them locked in. Oh, also, it's critical to remain silent the whole time - no encouragement or criticism... let them find their center and they'll whoop on you in weird ways.

Girls have zero hesitation in using "cheap" tactics. They don't even understand what you mean when you call it that.

[Balthasar]

It's not a button-masher unless you want it to be...Girls have zero hesitation in using "cheap" tactics. They don't even understand what you mean when you call it that.
Oh, I wasn't saying it was a button-masher. I was just trying to give an example of what I've seen in real life in terms of "cost of entry," which I thought made SC2 pretty fun. Soul Caliber in general is pretty deep.

My female friends made no bones about their cheap tactics. They knew damn well what they were doing and they didn't give a fuck. So long as they won and got to dance on my grave. Fuckers.

[GrinR]

My female friends made no bones about their cheap tactics. They knew damn well what they were doing and they didn't give a fuck. So long as they won and got to dance on my grave. Fuckers.

A. EX-AAAACTLYYY
B. I love it.

[Xerxes]

How is this different from any fighting game? I could do what you describe with Guile just as well as Sub-Zero, or Lily, or ... any fighter. Clearly you missed the core gameplay of Bushido Blade, which was positioning and timing.

If I'm thinking of the right game, no you can't do that in MK or SF. I mean you had free reign. But the sword play it was like slash slash fight over. Nothing was difficult about the game. And it was slow. What timing? Now a game with timing was Tobal. I haven't seen a game like it, since it.

[Lord Dongkey]

On the topic of the DOA series treatment of various moves, I've always personally been quite a fan. The gap between "hitting A jumps" and "hitting up and punch does this. Down and punch does this" etc, is not a huge gap in terms of complexity or detachment from a game, it's more a matter of learning the organic feel of which directions and attacks lead to what results. Anybody who's played the piano for long enough to produce something non-hideous is familiar with this idea, that the mechanical memory/fingers and the conscious don't communicate directly, but rather, you have desires and intentions, the subconscious takes them and processes them, and then shit happens with the fingers. :)

Having mastered about four of the characters and being proficient with all of them in DOA 3, it's like learning a new song, or learning a new process. You do something, repeat it a few times, and then make it happen... and once you get past mastering one character in DOA, the "organic" nature of their combo building becomes apparent, and then all it takes to get a grasp on a new character is the 5 minutes it takes to run through the sparring mode and see what their moves are. Are you going to walk out the gate and have complete mastery of all of the character's moves and nuances? Of course not. But you're going to understand the premise of the character's motif, and be able to build on that.

In DOA, the assumption that their combo list/move list is 100% complete is completely false. Understanding the way the character's flow and the way they move from one set of moves to the next, a skilled DOA player can build on that momentum with other moves not listed on the combo list, or even break out of it with a direction shift and momentum stopping move to hit from an unexpected angle. The entire point of the counter system, other than grinding your opponent into the dirt and getting serious bragging rights, is to allow the player that truly knows all the characters in the game to counter out of the combo, assuming they win the mind-game of selecting which elevation the attack is coming from, as well as at what time. The number of times I started wailing in to my assistant manager with Ayane, only to pull back halfway through a combo, laugh at him when his character hit the counter animation, then flip over, grab the bastard by the head, and slam him into the ground... well, let me just say, it's a beautiful thing.

I'm starting to think I may just be a fiend with my devotion to the game... but hey, every genre, and every game, needs its devoted fanatics to preach the good word. ;) Now I just need to find an XBox 360 here in the States... and convince my wife it'd be a good thing for me to have it... hmm...

Good dialogue though on this one, keep it coming so I can stay occupied here at work. :cool:

[GrinR]

But the sword play it was like slash slash fight over. Nothing was difficult about the game. And it was slow. What timing?

I think you could get this impression if you never played against a human, assuming of course you had superhuman reflexes for the single player game.

It also occurs to me you could say the same thing about Samurai Showdown, Soul Caliber, or any other game - and it would be just as untrue.

Bushido Blade is well-known for being one of the best dueling games ever made. I don't know how you could play it for any length of time and miss that.

[Xerxes]

I played the game for a good amount of time and you are right only against a computer. I just didn't think much of it. Again, in a vs format Tobal was where "it" is at and it's been hidden for a while. I don't know. Bushido ain't very clear in my head. I didn't think much of it then so it's not like I have the greatest memories of it. I didn't really think it was much of a fighter in it's presentation as far as i can remember. Not in the traditional setting. The character to actually move in 3-d and like I said run away during the fight to get distance from the opponent. Give you time to readjust.

And I love Soul Caliber as much as the next person but how is it sooo deep. I mean to newbie to becoming a master at the game I think is about the same distance on doa. Same for tekken. I found Brad Wang(DOA) to be much like Eddy(Tekken) with a ecclectic style from what's the norm. Same for Raphael(SC). I could sit there tapping buttons and get a hit with any of them. Fighting Games is a button smashing genre cause there isn't anything to fall off of most the time. You only have one target. SC you can ring out however to cut some silliness.

I can admit SC is quicker to just figure out simple stuff but you still wouldn't know what you doing. I mean what the hell does really mean to left + (horizontal slash) mean to someone who just found something and use it here or there, to someone who figured out the right timing and best position for a move.

Everyone in DOA is much alike. KICK KICK KICK is a linked up Tri-Kick in DOA. For mostly everyone. If you figure out something with one you know something with them all. To get good at DOA isn't hard. I wasn't saying the game need a 8 hour training session for one character. I don't really recall saying if you got good at the game you would like it.

[Lord Dongkey]

Hitting kick three times to perform a combo, and knowing the ramifications of using that "combo" with the various characters, including elevation of the strikes, time left open on the beginning of the combo and the end, dead time between the kicks to gauge whether someone can take the hit and counter out of it easily... (the list goes on) are two very different things.

I think there's a differing opinion of what "good" is. Can you hit buttons and make things happen? Yes. Can you be reasonably in control of what's going to happen? Sure. Would someone who actually catered to the game's mechanics and knew all the characters and played the mind game thoroughly and utterly destroy you?

Absolutely.

[GrinR]

Xerxes, were you talking about Tobal or Tobal 2? If you mean 2, I agree that by far that was the best fighting game I've ever played. Utterly fluid, with attacks that were no more than a second, it relied 100% on your ability to "feel" your opponent. Man, I miss it.

[Balthasar]

And I love Soul Caliber as much as the next person but how is it sooo deep. I mean to newbie to becoming a master at the game I think is about the same distance on doa. Same for tekken. I found Brad Wang(DOA) to be much like Eddy(Tekken) with a ecclectic style from what's the norm.
You can't take arguably the cheapest character in the Tekken series and say he proves the game is as deep as DOA. Anyone who has played Tekken knows that people who just hit buttons mindlessly tend to play very, very poorly. There is just too much going on at once. And this series hasn't even fully integrated countering in it yet.

[Balthasar]

Xerxes, were you talking about Tobal or Tobal 2? If you mean 2, I agree that by far that was the best fighting game I've ever played. Utterly fluid, with attacks that were no more than a second, it relied 100% on your ability to "feel" your opponent. Man, I miss it.
Never got to play it; I think I passed it buy and picked up Bushido Blade instead. I can't remember, but I feel like it was on the rack when I picked BB up.

[Xerxes]

Xerxes, were you talking about Tobal or Tobal 2? If you mean 2, I agree that by far that was the best fighting game I've ever played. Utterly fluid, with attacks that were no more than a second, it relied 100% on your ability to "feel" your opponent. Man, I miss it.

I hear about tobal 2 and wish i got to play it. I'm talking about 1 but everyone says 2 blew 1 out the water. Where the fuck is Tobal 3 then you know?

[Xerxes]

You can't take arguably the cheapest character in the Tekken series and say he proves the game is as deep as DOA. Anyone who has played Tekken knows that people who just hit buttons mindlessly tend to play very, very poorly. There is just too much going on at once. And this series hasn't even fully integrated countering in it yet.

I think all three of those characters are considered cheap. I don't because I know someone who knows what they are doing and someone smashing buttons. I like capoeira so it's not cheap in my eyes. Devil would be cheap. Button smashers play poorly regardless. What series doesn't have countering? DOA?!?

[GrinR]

I hear about tobal 2 and wish i got to play it. I'm talking about 1 but everyone says 2 blew 1 out the water. Where the fuck is Tobal 3 then you know?

Tobal 1 was to Tobal 2 what Street Fighter was to Street Fighter 2. A good beginning but really just an appetizer.

Ahh those were the days...

[Mozain]

Just throwing in a few comments of my own. First point, on the subject of the "You just don't understand it, if you did you would like it "Or the "If you just played it lots and learned how the game works you would like it.". I will be buying this game, and like I said I will be buying an Xbox 360 simply to play this game, but it is certainly not one of my more favorable games, I don't care much for DOA. It is not a game I wish to master, or even play that much. But, such is my enjoyment of playing Fighters against skilled human opponents I will most certainly get it to play against my friends (Mostly one actually, of whom loves DOA and swears its the best game ever). There is little enjoyment in me playing fighters against my friends who don't own them themselves, they usually are not very good so it poses no challenge. Thus in the "Fighting" spirit I am forced to purchase games/systems I don't even care that much for just to get that challenge. And, as a true "Hardcore" fighting game guy (With disposible income), I will happily pay this price! Secondly, just a short one, Bushido Blade definatly rests near the top of my favorite games.... It is battle personified by tense motions and quick reflexes... A great play against people.