Left 4 Dead 2 Boycott

[Evil Avatar]

http://evilavatar.com/images/thumbs/left4dead2_boycott.jpg

It looks like a few fans aren't too happy (http://steamcommunity.com/groups/L4D2boycott) that Left 4 Dead 2 has been announced a mere 7 months after the release of the first title.

The few people here who defend the decision to make L4D2 seem to not understand what everyone is upset about. I've tried to summarise the most common issues I've heard people having in hopes that it clears things up:
Significant content for L4D1 was promised, and never delivered
Valve put little faith in L4D1 since they almost certainly started working on L4D2 right after release
The fact that L4D2 is nearly identical to L4D1 will decimate the community for both games
The announced date is not nearly enough time to polish content or make significant gameplay changes
The new character designs seem bland and unappealing so far
L4D2 is too colourful to fit in with L4D1's visual aesthetic
The fiddle-based horde music is extremely disliked, though the differently orchestrated music is otherwise welcome
L4D2's release will result in a drop in quality and frequency for L4D1 content, even compared to before
The community has lost faith in Valve's former reputation for commitment to their games post-release

Steam thread: "A concise list of what people are actually angry about" (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=885287) 700+ Replies
Steam Group: L4D2 Boycott (NO-L4D2) (http://steamcommunity.com/groups/L4D2boycott) 2114 members

I will admit, I was a little shocked myself. Considering all the time and effort that has gone into Team Fortress 2, it looks like Left 4 Dead was Left 4... um... Dead.

[eth3rton]

Won't stop it from selling like hotcakes!

[Mr.Green]

Oh boy. An online petition.

Simply hilarious.

[Jamikazi]

ha. it took me a few glances to realize the the boycott art for what it was.

that said I'm sure I'll end up buying it unfortunately.

[Zetsuei]

I'm definitely not buying it, unless it is at an extremely discounted price. I don't appreciate developers lying to their customers faces, saying they're going to support a product and then show that they completely abandoned it in order to make a quick buck.

[ascl]

As much of a valve fanboy that I am... this is definitely not a day one purchase for me. First valve game for a long time. Whether I buy it in the long run, who knows, maybe.

[Capt_Thad]

Would this really do anything more than maybe push the release date back a few months? The release date they announced was for November, that's 12 months. A full year isn't considered bad for some sequels... Maybe Valve could toss in a couple half-assed "because you cried a lot" campaigns. I was hoping for more expansions to L4D, but after some thought this looks to be the better way. It sounds like there's been a major engine revamp, not really something you could include with just an expansion. I was sold by the mention of dynamic path changing alone.

Maybe they'll turn it into episodes like HL2, then update the engine for the first game down the road. They'll prolly just release it like they planned originally planned though. They had to expect this response from the get-go, and the majority of the upset is derived from an early trailer. At worst, a lot of people will hold off until the free weekend + 50% off sale a couple months after release that we know is bound to happen.

[CSargeP]

I know I'm not buying it until I'm certain it's going to be supported.

[saulob]

I'm with them... really.

[Frostburn]

I really thought Valve would release NEW campaigns for L4D, that's a big reason I picked it up. I thought there would be at least 8 by the time they stopped supporting it and moved on to a new game. I'll certainly wait and see this time around, not buying it day 1 either unless they have a lot of surprises for it they haven't announced yet.

[OmegaVader]

I agree with this, if only because (in spite of the announcement of L4D2) I still have enough faith in valve to listen to their fans...they have done so most recently with TF2 and achievement milestones. They don't want to ruin all the good faith they've built with the customer base, and I expect that, with enough complaining, they will do somethign to alleviate our worries -- perhaps make L4D2 a cheap extension for those of us who already own L4D1. This seems to be an acceptable alternative (for PC users, that is. As far as I am concerned, Xbox players are fucked).

[drakkarim]

all i can say is STFU and vote with your money. they're doing this because they know people will bend over and eat whatever shit they serve off their shovels while they laugh all the way to the bank.

[RevGored]

Does anyone know if this is going to be a full-priced product at all? Or how distribution is going to be handled?

Didn't think so.

The way that people instantly jump on Valve and are ready to demonize them REALLY surprises me, especially in the 'Valve community'. Consider the fact that we know LITERALLY nothing about this title save for a release date, and you've got yourself a big ol' pile of assumptions there.

I wouldn't be surprised if this game is 20 bucks, and it's the first official 'upgrade sequel' in a long line of games like this. If it sees a retail release, I would be extremely surprised.

[Opty]

Hey guys, I'm a spoiled gamer whose self-entitlement makes me think I'm super important and that my tears, applied over a keyboard to the internet, will make Valve do exactly what I want.

[ElfShotTheFood]

This will be forgotten by next week, when the next "gaming crisis" rears its head.

[Capt_Thad]

Does anyone know if this is going to be a full-priced product at all? Or how distribution is going to be handled?

I wouldn't be surprised if this game is 20 bucks, and it's the first official 'upgrade sequel' in a long line of games like this. If it sees a retail release, I would be extremely surprised.

http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=1138 - article from another post in here...

Shack: EA Partners helped publish the first Left 4 Dead, but yesterday's announcement didn't mention any publishing partner. Who's publishing?

Doug Lombardi: We haven't announced it yet.

Shack: But there is a publisher?

Doug Lombardi: There will be before we ship.

Shack: What price-point should we expect?

Doug Lombardi: This is a full sequel.

Shack: So full price?

Doug Lombardi: Yeah. At the end of the day, this is going to be a bigger game than Left 4 Dead. It's five campaigns versus four, all five are playable in Versus mode, Survival mode out of the box, the new multiplayer game mode. Plus over 20 new weapons and items. It's a full sequel.

So a full price retail release more or less confirmed. I do agree with your general point though, about the jumping to conclusions with almost no information. By any regards though full game = full price in my books, much as I'd like them at reduced or no cost.

[murpes]

Whatever. This is one of the dumber things I've seen gamers unite under in a while.

Left 4 Dead was fun as hell, worth every penny. I'll grab this the day it comes out as well. Most games don't hold my attention that long anyway, I can't be the only one. I'm glad to see a refresh come out so soon.

[wastedyears]

LFD was more of a mode than a full game, in my opinion.

[Undertakr]

I rushed out and got L4D1 and then...waited....and waited....and waited. No f'n way in hell I'm paying another $50-60 for L4D1 1/2 - The game as it should have been. That's $150-160 for one working game? No thanks Valve.

They make awesome games most of the time, but I'm not buying this just out of spite. All of these things should have been in the first game. They just released L4D1 to get some extra cash to actually finish the game. Instead of L4D1 it should be called L4DBeta and the second should be "L4DRelease Candidate, thanks for the free cash and testing suckers." Fuck them.

I'm getting really sick of game developers. E3 was a joke. Sorry, but just because you put in graphics of David Lee Roth it doesn't mean you deserve ANOTHER $60 for what is simply a new song pack. People need to quit buying this shit so the game companies quit doing it.

[silv]

L4D owned. L4D2 is a day one purchase.

[apollyonbob]

I rushed out and got L4D1 and then...waited....and waited....and waited. No f'n way in hell I'm paying another $50-60 for L4D1 1/2 - The game as it should have been. That's $150-160 for one working game? No thanks Valve.

They make awesome games most of the time, but I'm not buying this just out of spite. All of these things should have been in the first game. They just released L4D1 to get some extra cash to actually finish the game. Instead of L4D1 it should be called L4DBeta and the second should be "L4DRelease Candidate, thanks for the free cash and testing suckers." Fuck them.

I'm getting really sick of game developers. E3 was a joke. Sorry, but just because you put in graphics of David Lee Roth it doesn't mean you deserve ANOTHER $60 for what is simply a new song pack. People need to quit buying this shit so the game companies quit doing it.

See, me? I have money, and how, so I don't mind shelling out $100 for an awesome game. After all, I paid full price for Rock Band AND Rock Band 2. That's a helluva lot more than $150, so why not? $100 in total for Left 4 Dead seems like a savings by comparison, and it's totally worth it.

Not to mention the fact that as a software developer, I understand that these people don't just wave magic wands at a computer, or sit around on recliners with controllers punching buttons madly while a game creates itself.

Sad to say, it costs money to make a game. Expecting free stuff all the time because you get it occassionally - that's called "a sense of entitlement", and it's way, way more annoying than a game company, God FORBID, actually trying to make money off their games.

[Balhem]

I wouldn't be so upset about it personally if it wasn't for the fact that they said they were going to add all the extra stuff in. If they didn't say that, I would just overlook it, however they made promises, they didn't deliver so far, so people have a right to be angry.

I am just going to wait and see and make sure they don't add in the other stuff they promised still. You never know.

[sgtslappy]

Jesus people are retarded, it's just a game.

Sometimes I hate the internet.

Also, can anyone link Valve saying they were going to support L4D or did everyone assume they were.

[hund_]

See, me? I have money, and how, so I don't mind shelling out $100 for an awesome game.
i do too but i would of never paid $100 for l4d.

[Loganrapp]

Zombies in New Orleans? Ha! I'm so in.

Oh noes, boycott.

[WileE.Coyte]

This is an experiment plain and simple, buy this game and you will be selling the future to crappy half-assed lets make a quick buck sequals. I support the boycott to it's fullest unless LFD 2 retails new at 19.99.

[ascl]

Jesus people are retarded, it's just a game.

Sometimes I hate the internet.

Also, can anyone link Valve saying they were going to support L4D or did everyone assume they were.

http://www.videogamer.com/xbox360/left_4_dead/news/valve_details_post_left_4_dead_launch_plans.html

Valve intends to support hotly anticipated zombie survival shooter Left 4 Dead post-release with new characters, new maps, new achievements and new weapons in order to grow the community, Gabe Newell has revealed.

Speaking to VideoGamer.com at Leipzig Games Convention, the Valve co-founder and managing director said the developer intended to follow a similar downloadable content policy as it has with Team Fortress 2.

I am sure there are other sources too.

[ascl]

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/turtle-rock-project/902345p3.html

GameSpy: You said that the game is split into four campaigns. Are you planning for future downloadable campaigns?
Gabe Newell:
<snip>

And the best way to do that was to release new maps, new weapons, add achievements. They're really interested in the characters and the story behind them. Every four to six weeks we've released movies about the characters. We just released a movie about the sandwich, which actually people have really enjoyed. We still need to release these boxes, these point releases, but as we continue to release new campaigns, new characters, new weapons, and tell stories about these characters, that's the best way to grow the community.

A lot of the value of a game like Left 4 Dead or a game like Team Fortress 2 is the community around it, since those are the people that you get to play with, and that's where you're deriving a lot of your enjoyment. So we're taking the same approach that we've taken with Team Fortress 2, and doing that for Left 4 Dead.

[Reanimated]

nerd rage is so hilarious

[WpnX]

I’ve been going back and forth over the announcement of L4D2.

Valve has been great at supporting TF2. The updates have been frequent and fun, with balance issues usually taken care of within a week, IMHO. TF2 not only got new game modes, but several new maps on which to play them on. They followed through with much of the “Meet the…” series of videos, which does nothing for gameplay, but gave me a chuckle. It is safe to say that this is above and beyond what was expected in terms of support for the game.

Many people like myself were skeptical over the amount of content shipped with L4D. With only two of the four campaigns being available in Versus mode (see: unfinished), plus serious matchmaking issues (for me, anyways), I had to take Valve at their word that content was on the way. At no point did Valve promise the sort of support we enjoyed for TF2; this was something I myself had assumed, and it is unfair of me to think L4D deserves dozens of hours worth of free content. Especially in this economy.

Fast forward. New L4D content. A lighthouse level. New game mode. The game mode exhibits some polish, but aside from the lighthouse level, had little along the way of new assets. The gameplay was simply “end of campaign” mode without the “end”. In short, the new content was nothing new. It was nice to get versus working on the other campaigns, but it is hard to argue that this feature shouldn’t have been included on day one.

What really gets me is that this game is being released less than a year after its prequel. I can’t think of any great ‘AAA’ games to have a development time of less than a year. This means one of the following:


This was expansion content that was made into a full game.

This was never intended to be expansion content, but was started prior to L4D being released.

This game is being put together in less than a year, and will likely come out of the oven with a few modes only half-done.

The game will be delayed. Valve is no stranger to announcing that a game will be out in a few months, then taking a year and a half.


Now we can’t expect Valve to be the patron saint of ethics in gaming. They have a staff of people to pay, who in turn have families to feed. They need to make money.

Valve – you don’t owe me anything. Gabe Newell didn’t call me up and ask me to buy. That I did on my own.

Now, however, I consider it a mistake – my purchase of L4D. I wouldn’t have bought if I had known there would be another less than a year down the pipe - one with better features and many of the promised improvements.

Call me a whiner, but I’m rage-quitting. I can not support Valve after releasing a half-finished, yet extremely fun game. I may still purchase Half-Life Ep. 3, depending on whether or not it comes with ANOTHER copy of Half-Life 2 (“Just give it to your friend” he says). I will rent Portal 2 if at all possible.

I cannot accept another unfinished product on the heels of L4D. You can do better.

Here’s hoping the ‘continued support’ we are getting is detailed soon, because even if I am over-reacting – I am not the only person who feels this way.

[Korialstrazs]

Fuck paying full price for expansions, I'm not getting this unless one of my friends buys it for me.

[Zetsuei]

For all the people who are saying those who are pissed about the announcement to stop whining, you're a fucking dickhead.

The game was released incomplete, with many people buying it in good faith that it would be updated (as promised in many interviews - with sources linked in this thread).

This new game has the exact same engine. Recycled character models, textures, sounds, weapons, and effects. It is simply new scenarios, with some added features that they didn't think of at the original release.

That to me, and everyone else pissed off, sounds like an "expansion" that should be priced at much less than a full game. People have a right to be angry. It's a rip-off, and Valve has gone back on their promise. So again, to those who say people are whining, you're a dumb-ass.

[StANTo]

See, me? I have money, and how, so I don't mind shelling out $100 for an awesome game. After all, I paid full price for Rock Band AND Rock Band 2. That's a helluva lot more than $150, so why not? $100 in total for Left 4 Dead seems like a savings by comparison, and it's totally worth it. .

Dare I say it, more money than sense? :P

[Earth Djinn]

Enter the Valve fans with a sense of entitlement.

[Pnikosis]

I will not pay full price for an expansion. I didn't even payed full price for the first L4D (I bought in Poland), and happy about it as I discovered that it was an unfinished game.

I'm tired of people trying to charge you full price for uncomplete products.

[TDiddy]

To repeat what was said earlier: Vote with your wallet.
My vote will cost me $60 on November 17th, as this is definitely a day one purchase.

[Gedd]

As much of a valve fanboy that I am... this is definitely not a day one purchase for me. First valve game for a long time. Whether I buy it in the long run, who knows, maybe.

Was thinking the exact same thing myself.

[blackstrikex]

"hey man lets take all the extra shit we had planned and add even more too it, so we have a full sequel"

"great, the people who loved the first game will be excited we took it up a notch, and went that extra mile, I'm sure!"

[Fubl]

could this be that until Valve dropped the price of L4d nobodyreally bought it..... gee alot of people jumped on this bandwagon when the game was 50% off 2 weeks after launch.. this is a serious way for them to get a return on their probably development loses. Chances are that everyone got their monies worth out of the games just dont want to admit that they are fanboys that got hurt.

Watch this get published by microsoft also.... probably part of the deal they had to work for the content pack being free for 360.

[Duskfire]

I have roughly 100ish hours playtime on Left4Dead, so to me its a definite buy. I can understand why people are annoyed but at the same time I find it amusing that suddenly everyone seems to have lost faith in valve because of one game.

[see colon]

Has Valve stated that they have forsaken L4D? There is nothing stopping them from releasing more content for the first game and the second game. They've made no mention of not releasing content for L4D, either. We could still see other campaigns.

Also, does anyone expect this to actualy come out in November. Valve's history points more towards July 2010... maybe longer. I can't remember a game they got out the door on time.

[IveGotThatWiperFluid]

If it has more weapons and better textures I'd buy it, but otherwise there are better things to play this fall.

[Gaz]

People just don't want to spend money to receive more than the content they got first time around for the same price. Because, you know, GIEF GAMES FOR FREE and all that; you can't quite compare the Team Fortress 2 updates to a full on set of campaigns with brand new maps, characters, brand new assets, proper gameplay additions. Christ, it's like this whole band of gamers never bought an Activision sequel before... Valve always tries new policies and new approaches, this is no different. We wouldn't have Steam if they never tried coming from a different angle.

It's kids on the Internet being spoilt, thinking they can make a difference and so getting power mad, then in a couple of weeks it's all been forgotten about and everyone -still- picks the game up in the end because they can't pirate it and still play it online with their friends who never gave a shit about these 'issues'.

For all the people who are saying those who are pissed about the announcement to stop whining, you're a fucking dickhead.

This new game has the exact same engine. Recycled character models, textures, sounds, weapons, and effects. It is simply new scenarios, with some added features that they didn't think of at the original release.

You're not actually looking at the game through your e-rage, are you? New character models, new textures, new sounds, new weapons, new effects... if you'd seen an ounce of gameplay you'd know that. I might be a dickhead, but at least I'm not an ignorant dickhead.

Also, Fubl, Valve had the most pre-orders for L4D than any other game they've ever made. Lots of people bought it, not just day 1, but before day 1.

[lost]

I understand the anger but that much content would cost a bomb as dlc anyway.

[felix]

It'd be pretty neat of Valve to release Ep3, Portal 2 and L4D2 in the same box just like Orange box.

The Internet rage would turn back into fanboyism pretty quickly.

[Wolfgang]

I don't see what the big deal is -- people buy madden every year for $60 with less updates than will be in L4D 2. I plan on getting L4D 2 Day 1 if it has a few more maps. The number of maps is my biggest problem with the first one.

[Mephistopheles]

Considering that the two HL2 episodic content releases took well over a year each to develop and the third is approaching two years I can understand why people are surprised that Valve would be planning a full sequel in half the time it takes them to develop an episodic expansion.

I think people only have themselves to blame if they feel cheated, though. Next time buy a product on the basis of what it is and not what you're told it may be in the future.

[Cowin13]

well one thing definitely sounds good. It says on http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=1138&page=2
that there will be a map that every time you go through it the path way will be different so you won't know exactly which way you should be going, this will make game play different every time you play that campaign, sounds kinda cool to me.

Chet Faliszek: I think all this, oh, Valve's going to make Maddens every year--that's not true. There's this whole group of us at Valve who had all these ideas. When we get done with this, we're going to sit back and we have no future plans or anything like that. This could be the platform for zombie apocalypse games for a while.

Not exactly something I'm excited about. Hopefully they will work on more special infected. Anyway the game looks okay so far, I'm looking forward to melee but other than that I'm not going out of my way to buy this game.

[Demo_Boy]

L4D2 is to L4D1 as
FullAuto 2: Battlelines is to FullAuto 360.
Both sequels were shipped ~9 months after the first game released.

[sol740]

Valve could very well release a couple more maps and modes for L4D during the summer/early fall months to get everyone "re-stoked" on the L4D gameplay, right before the sequel hits the stores. Though even if they don't I measure the value of my dollar by quality, not necessarily quantity. With L4D I probably chalked up 40 or more hours of Versus mode alone. Hours I enjoyed, minus the god-awful lobby system(why every game doesn't have a party and matchmaker is BEYOND me). I too initially thought I would be perturbed by the lack of maps and modes when I first bought the game, but I had so much fun with it, it didn't really stay an issue.

Bring on L4D2, I wanna kill some more humans.

[pwnophobia]

/picard too short

[92miata]

http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=1138 - article from another post in here...





So a full price retail release more or less confirmed. I do agree with your general point though, about the jumping to conclusions with almost no information. By any regards though full game = full price in my books, much as I'd like them at reduced or no cost.

we all have to understand. a bmw m3 convertible costs ALOT to lease or own. i have tried, and can't afford it. how can you blame these people for wanting full prices.....:) seriously, bmw's are expensive!!!!!

[Venkman]

Fucking losers.

I'll be playing left for dead with approx. 2000 less whiny pussies.

[finbogg]

I have gotten way more than $50 value out of L4D1 and plan on preordering L4D2. The nerd rage over this is annoying and like someone said before stems from a sense of entitlement. Valve said that they still had plans to support L4D1 so all you people who thought you got an incomplete game can console yourself with that.

[Scaledriver]

This is the same game that got FREE dlc on the xbox, and the pc version got it's own development kit?

Day one purchase here because I got way more than paid for already.

[rv_el]

This is an experiment plain and simple, buy this game and you will be selling the future to crappy half-assed lets make a quick buck sequals. I support the boycott to it's fullest unless LFD 2 retails new at 19.99.

You live in a fantasy world! this isn't how capitalism works!

If the game is good, then it is good and we all win. If not then they will fail and it will show. The people will speak. And i speak up for fun 4 player co-op games.

Think about GTA! the first (3d) GTA's visuals were horrible compaired to other games out there at that time. The Vice city guys shirt on the main character had f'ing seams in his texture! Even during those days that was concidered pathetic. BUT people loved the game and got so much $-per-time of actual FUN out of it that they kept buying it
and by buying that game they, to use your own words, sold the future to solid game play and innovation!
And yet the future wasn't painted with 100% half-assed artwork across the board because of GTA.

So perhaps by buying "Crappy" L4D you are selling the future to solid and innovative 4 player Co-op mission based games with great systems in them!

Why so negative??? jesus. If it is truly is crappy and i can tell that my 3 buddies and i (who i played TONS of L4D1 with) wont have fun playing it for hours and hours on end..... Wile E, i promise you i wont buy it. I agree that they could try to peddle us shit, but i trust that people wont buy it if its actually bad.


-Also the whole 19.99 thing is funny because that, imo, IS the "quick buck".. your willingness to pay less for crap is very odd to me. But then again i'm older, i have money and no time. So i am only willing to pay for great experiences, even if they are short.

[WpnX]

Fucking losers.

I'll be playing left for dead with approx. 2000 less whiny pussies.

I don't understand some of you people. Maybe you feel ripped off, but I don't so FUCK YOU!

[saulob]

Does anyone know if there's a developer reply on that thread on the steamforum?

It would be nice to read it.

[Venkman]

I don't understand some of you people. Maybe you feel ripped off, but I don't so FUCK YOU!

It must be past your bed time, diddums. I'm buying L4D2 day one.

[Venkman]

I don't understand some of you people. Maybe you feel ripped off, but I don't so FUCK YOU!

Sorry to confuse, it's clear to me I must be very, very explicit when I post on this forum.

I can't wait for the release of L4d2. I will be playing that game with 2000 less whiny pussies - as in those losers not buying the next game who signed the petition. So fuck em. I'll have fun while they get angry.

[Ulysses]

Well nice to see people taking a stand, anyway.

[WpnX]

Sorry to confuse, it's clear to me I must be very, very explicit when I post on this forum.

I can't wait for the release of L4d2. I will be playing that game with 2000 less whiny pussies - as in those losers not buying the next game who signed the petition. So fuck em. I'll have fun while they get angry.

No - I understood what you said, I just can't believe someone would be so callous.

[sol740]

No - I understood what you said, I just can't believe someone would be so callous.

I can't believe you like to whine so much.

Ohhhhh ... Canada.

Whine-on.

[sol740]

I don't understand some of you people. Maybe you feel ripped off, but I don't so FUCK YOU!


Also his point was that he DIDN'T feel ripped off. So you DIDN'T understand what he was saying in the first place.

[Ulysses]

Actually Wpn's did understand that. Maybe you're reading his post wrong, the last sentence should be in quotes.

Odd thing to call them 'pussies' and 'losers' though. If they feel it's not worth their money...then by all means don't pay. Or should they man up and play it anyway?

[AversionFX]

So, people are mad about it because:

1) The game makes use of color.
2) The game makes use of a form of music common with where the game takes place.
3) The assumption that Valve has not been able to polish the game.
4) The assumption that Valve will no longer support L4D 1.
5) The game has a new cast of characters who are not whitebread urbanites.
6) The assumption that the community for both games will hate each other, and kill each other over which title is better.

And somebody had the balls to tell me that gamers, namely the people pissed about this, don't feel entitled? That's a riot. Gamers are the most self-important, entitled piss-ants I have ever come across.

People are up in arms over a video game? Get the fuck over yourselves. At least some of you have the decency to just say, "Not happy, so I probably won't buy this." But the people who are actually pissed off and offended, wow. You are a separate type of human. One that I hope dies off soon.

[Kataron]

Let's look at the facts here. Left 4 Dead was a great game. It was a lot of fun, the survival mode was just as it promised to be, and the multiplayer experience is fantastic.

Valve is a good company, with an excellent track record. Just look at Orange Box. Great group of games, great price.

This looks like a major overhaul. A lot of changes. New zombies, new weapons, new characters, new zombies. Melee weapons! And most importantly, a revamped director. Alternate paths are quite exciting.

Valve generally isn't a company to screw their fans, and what probably happened is that they were looking to improve L4D, and were overzealous with their ideas, and when they realized the full breadth of them, they decided it was best to release it in a new game.

I'll pay fifty bucks for it, because it will be fun, and they deserve it. Especially with the economy the way it is, if we don't support companies that have been there for us, then we may lose out on whatever projects the future has in store. Especially since they don't make additional money on the Team Fortress franchise, and considering all the work they put into it recently, just to appease fans that already bought the game...

All that petition is doing is showing that gamers are whiny and cheap. I'm not, and I've seen that a lot of you people agree.

Also? I can't WAIT to chainsaw some freakin' zombies with three of my friends.

[Venkman]

Odd thing to call them 'pussies' and 'losers' though. If they feel it's not worth their money...then by all means don't pay.

Sure. That's manning up. Vote with their wallets. That's the only thing that matters anyway.

Or should they man up and play it anyway?

I just think 2000 anonymous people signing a petition is not "manning up". That's whining.

The feel they deserve something more - the sense of entitlement makes me think of those "Sweet 16" birthday parties on MTV.

The last game was worth $60. This next one looks better.

[rv_el]

So, people are mad about it because:

1) The game makes use of color.
2) The game makes use of a form of music common with where the game takes place.
3) The assumption that Valve has not been able to polish the game.
4) The assumption that Valve will no longer support L4D 1.
5) The game has a new cast of characters who are not whitebread urbanites.
6) The assumption that the community for both games will hate each other, and kill each other over which title is better.

And somebody had the balls to tell me that gamers, namely the people pissed about this, don't feel entitled? That's a riot. Gamers are the most self-important, entitled piss-ants I have ever come across.

People are up in arms over a video game? Get the fuck over yourselves. At least some of you have the decency to just say, "Not happy, so I probably won't buy this." But the people who are actually pissed off and offended, wow. You are a separate type of human. One that I hope dies off soon.


I should have said what you said. I concur completely! Thank you for pointing out that most of the real concerns are assumptions and that most of the semi-verifiable concerns are trivial.

I dont understand how people are so pre-emptivily threatened/offended either. Its creepy.

[the soUL TRAder]

I have a feeling this entitlement attitude will end up being another nail in the coffin for you elitists. I mean you're totally revolting against the one developer who still cared about the gamers on this platform, even though their efforts would be rewarded with more actual sales if they focused on other platforms.

[AversionFX]

I should have said what you said. I concur completely! Thank you for pointing out that most of the real concerns are assumptions and that most of the semi-verifiable concerns are trivial.

I dont understand how people are so pre-emptivily threatened/offended either. Its creepy.

The death of me is how difficult it is to identify subtle sarcasm through text. :(

[thatlukeguy]

Hey guys, I'm a spoiled gamer whose self-entitlement makes me think I'm super important and that my tears, applied over a keyboard to the internet, will make Valve do exactly what I want.

Hey guys, I'm a freakin robot whose programming makes me think that a company who I like to throw buckets of money at will for no good reason will appreciate it and that my undying love and devotion in the form of a internet-court-defense, applied over a keyboard to the internet, will make Vlave return my calls some day on go on that amazing date I've been dreaming of.

Hey, hey buddy? Can I have your money too for no reason? I sure could use some in these great, non-competitive-for-your-dollar, everyone-is-rich-as-hell, economic times. Mmm hmm. Yah.

[Froggy]

Oh, good. Most of EvAv seems to see this for what it is.

Artists are artists. You can't sign a petition because they're taking their art in a new direction, or doing something you don't care for. It's really most ridic-.

[Zetsuei]

You're not actually looking at the game through your e-rage, are you? New character models, new textures, new sounds, new weapons, new effects... if you'd seen an ounce of gameplay you'd know that. I might be a dickhead, but at least I'm not an ignorant dickhead.

No, I looked at the game for what it is. New lack-luster main character models, new skins on guns that do the exact same thing, new melee weapons that could've taken a week to create maximum. I don't see what new effects you're talking about, and even if there are new sounds and textures, they're basically recycling everything from the old game. If you don't see that, not only are you a dickhead, but your a blind dickhead.

They are taking the madden approach (which I don't support at all), and making incremental upgrades on an existing game engine. Yeah there will be new campaigns, but they until they say they're going to support L4D with new camps (which they said they would), it's safe to assume they decided they'd rather make you pay out the ass for what was supposed to be bonus content.

For all you people who have plenty of money to spend, go nuts. Buy 5 copies to offset the copy that I'm not buying. For everyone saying that the people whining feel "entitled" to get something for free - they have the right. If someone says they're going to give you something, and then decide not to - and don't even explain why - you should have the right to be pissed off.

[the soUL TRAder]

If someone says they're going to give you something, and then decide not to - and don't even explain why - you should have the right to be pissed off.

Of course, you're assuming you're not getting what you where promised, so that right there makes you in the wrong. And even if that is the case, would it be any different if they stopped supporting the first even if ther wasn't a second one?

At least tell me this, if they continue support the first, would you begruge Valve making money off of a bunch of 360 gamers who never felt they were promised anything more with L4D, don't much care about adding a bunch of new stuff to it and want to play a refined version with a different backstory?

[AversionFX]

For all you people who have plenty of money to spend, go nuts. Buy 5 copies to offset the copy that I'm not buying. For everyone saying that the people whining feel "entitled" to get something for free - they have the right. If someone says they're going to give you something, and then decide not to - and don't even explain why - you should have the right to be pissed off.

You do realize that gaming is not a necessary aspect of life, and that Valve (and other game developers) are doing you a favor by making video games in the first place, right? Stop being such a whiny bitch. You aren't entitled to anything.

[WpnX]

This opens an interesting discussion as to what's acceptable in terms of annual releases.

Sure, this has been the standard for sports games for a while. Not being one to buy Madden, or just about any game that works off of this model, I feel its too soon for a sequel. My reasoning is contained in my earlier post.

Of course we all vote with our wallets. But let's face it - everyone needs some sort of outlet. I've been frequenting EvAv for a while, and occasionally throw a post up or two. I say that I've put some thought into it, and I don't like it.

Perhaps I'm being unreasonable, but understand that the Boycott L4D2 group is now almost 5000 people strong, so I'm obviously not the only person who feels this way. Name calling won't change that.

Someone mentioned having a "Super-Sweet 16" level of entitlement. The people on that show are throwing around tons of money. I am on a fixed income, and while I can easily afford a game or two every month, I don't see why I should have to.

I just bought L4D. Why should I buy it again?

[brandonjclark]

See, me? I have money, and how, so I don't mind shelling out $100 for an awesome game. After all, I paid full price for Rock Band AND Rock Band 2. That's a helluva lot more than $150, so why not? $100 in total for Left 4 Dead seems like a savings by comparison, and it's totally worth it.

Not to mention the fact that as a software developer, I understand that these people don't just wave magic wands at a computer, or sit around on recliners with controllers punching buttons madly while a game creates itself.

Sad to say, it costs money to make a game. Expecting free stuff all the time because you get it occassionally - that's called "a sense of entitlement", and it's way, way more annoying than a game company, God FORBID, actually trying to make money off their games.

Sorry, but I will never hold the needs of a developer over the wants of the consumer. Never.

Also, considering you bought both Rock Band and Rock Band 2, let me let you in on an idea I was just having, k? See, with the rise and advent of the casual gaming market, it seems like the gaming base consumer has overall lost some savvy when it comes to purchasing decisions. Since the pubs know this, they figure they can start "boxing" products differently, with apparently less for more dollars. Until the "gaming elite" or whatever you want to call smart game buyers stand up against things they don't consider a deal and inform the casual game buyer, we will continue to be "shoveled" shit, and be expected to take it.

I applaud anyone who stands up for what they want.

[finbogg]

I just bought L4D. Why should I buy it again?

So the new story, maps, environments, effects (fire and weather to name 2) survivor and special infected characters, melee weapons, and bonuses like incendiary ammo are all just more of the same? Oh yeah don't forget a revamped AI that can change the weather and the map.

The part I find annoying is that the L4D group at Valve is being vilified for trying to give gamers more than piecemeal DLC.
This is not a Maddenesque scenario (which Chet at Valve specifically pointed out). These guys are genuinely excited about their product and came up with so much new stuff that they felt it deserved it's own release. The fact that it will be out in a year is just a bonus to me.

[Venkman]

I am on a fixed income, and while I can easily afford a game or two every month, I don't see why I should have to.

You don't have to. Although you spend more on games per month than I do!


I just bought L4D. Why should I buy it again?

Only if you want to play with different characters and new levels, of course! :)

[Venkman]

I applaud anyone who stands up for what they want.

Than give those gamers who want to pay $60 for L4D 2 a round of appluase. ;)

[WpnX]

So the new story, maps, environments, effects (fire and weather to name 2) survivor and special infected characters, melee weapons, and bonuses like incendiary ammo are all just more of the same? Oh yeah don't forget a revamped AI that can change the weather and the map.


Story isn't important in L4D. Characters, likewise, aren't that important. This is not what L4D is about.

New campaigns sound nice, as do new weapons and enemies. However, there are links on this very thread where Valve reps said these things were coming down the pipe for L4D1. Instead we got survival mode.

I can see how branching paths is a significant update.Weather effects are nice, but hardly necessary.

Did anyone ask for an improved AI director? I tend not to think about it. I think they could easily put in the same AI director in L4D2, and no one would notice.

You can list the improvements all you like, but consider the fact that two campaigns weren't even playable in L4D1 versus until patched. This is uncharacteristic of Valve, but so is pushing a new game out the door before the franchise is a year old.

So how come when the content is full-priced, we get it after a year? Meanwhile, the discounted episodic content takes twice as long.

Finbogg, I appreciate how you can be excited for more L4D. The prospect excites me. But contrary to what some of the other L4D2 supporters seem to think the economy doesn't ONLY affect Valve. It also affects the people who have supported Valve through buying a few copies of Half-Life, then a few copies of Half-Life 2 because it was bundled with this, that or the other thing.

Heck - what the hell happened to expansion packs? They literally released a half-dozen for Half-Life, why not take that stance? After a year, an expansion makes perfect sense!

Granted, Valve hasn't released pricing, but everything seems to indicate this will be full priced.

[brandonjclark]

Than give those gamers who want to pay $60 for L4D 2 a round of appluase. ;)

slow. golf. clap.

;)

[AversionFX]

Story isn't important in L4D. Characters, likewise, aren't that important. This is not what L4D is about.

What, praytell, then, is important in a game about a zombie apocalypse that focuses on 4 individuals? Are you trying to say that the title, which makes obvious use of the number four, which is the exact number of survivors players control, isn't important?

What is important, then?

New campaigns sound nice, as do new weapons and enemies. However, there are links on this very thread where Valve reps said these things were coming down the pipe for L4D1. Instead we got survival mode.

And when did those Valve reps say they wouldn't be adding more content for L4D? You're being a whiny bitch for the sake of being a whiny bitch. What's the old saying about assumptions?

[TeeCakes]

I'm definitely not buying it, unless it is at an extremely discounted price. I don't appreciate developers lying to their customers faces, saying they're going to support a product and then show that they completely abandoned it in order to make a quick buck.

If you own a 360, you should've seen it coming the way MS handled their first console.

Meanwhile, the PS2 and even PSOne classics (MGS, FF7) are still getting full support from Sony to this day. If you wanted a 10-year guarantee, you definitely bought into the wrong company! :D

[finbogg]

Story isn't important in L4D. Characters, likewise, aren't that important. This is not what L4D is about.

New campaigns sound nice, as do new weapons and enemies. However, there are links on this very thread where Valve reps said these things were coming down the pipe for L4D1. Instead we got survival mode.

I can see how branching paths is a significant update.Weather effects are nice, but hardly necessary.

Did anyone ask for an improved AI director? I tend not to think about it. I think they could easily put in the same AI director in L4D2, and no one would notice.

Well I guess if none of these improvements interest you, then of course you shouldn't buy it. But then I have to ask what new content would have to be there for you to purchase an new game. That seems like a pretty large amount of new material and worthy of a stand alone game.

Valve has not said that they are abandoning L4D1 and in fact one developed interview said that more material was coming for L4D1.

I get the feeling that most of the outrage is from PC gamers who expected a lot of free stuff down that road. As an xbox gamer I knew better than to expect free DLC and was surprised that the first DLC content came free of charge.

Yes I am excited and not at all put-off by buying a new game. My gaming limitation is time not money.

[WpnX]

What is important, then?


gameplay is important. They don't need to change up Bill, Zoey and the gang. They don't need to tell a sweeping narrative. These were not the stand-out features about L4D. There is no reason to think L4D2 will be any different.


And when did those Valve reps say they wouldn't be adding more content for L4D? You're being a whiny bitch for the sake of being a whiny bitch. What's the old saying about assumptions?


Yes, I know Valve plans on putting out more content. However, as I mention in my first post, we're going to have to wait and see. Still, I find it difficult to believe that Valve will be going into L4D DLC full-throttle knowing the sequel is around the corner.

And seriously, L4D2 is due out less than a year after the first one. It is clear they have been developing this sucker for a while. This has taken development time away from L4D1, meaning I didn't get to play Versus on two of the maps until recently. The development kit for user mods was likewise very late. Sounds to me like someone starting their second project before finishing the first one. How do you explain these events without suggesting that Valve is being a tad self-serving?

By the way - I'm genuinely sorry if I offended you somehow. I am just trying to have a conversation here without being called a "whiny bitch". I know some people around here are too cool for school, but name-calling is the last resort of pre-pubescent internet trolls. We can do better.

[finbogg]

And seriously, L4D2 is due out less than a year after the first one. It is clear they have been developing this sucker for a while. This has taken development time away from L4D1, meaning I didn't get to play Versus on two of the maps until recently. The development kit for user mods was likewise very late. Sounds to me like someone starting their second project before finishing the first one. How do you explain these events without suggesting that Valve is being a tad self-serving?

From the interviews I have seen and read, they said that employees at Valve can choose their next project and that much of the team wanted to continue to work on L4D. The flood of ideas that came out justified a stand alone game but that there was still a team working on and improving L4D1. So yes, L4D1 probably did lose resources in favor of L4D2 (why wouldn't they hold their best stuff for the new game) but they have by no means abandoned L4D1. Chet from Valve specifically said that they still wanted to do stuff with the original 4 characters.

And I agree, name calling is for trolls.

[Kataron]

I am just trying to have a conversation here without being called a "whiny bitch". I know some people around here are too cool for school, but name-calling is the last resort of pre-pubescent internet trolls. We can do better.

Says the guy who earlier in this thread gave a very loud "fuck you" to people?

[WpnX]

Well I guess if none of these improvements interest you, then of course you shouldn't buy it. But then I have to ask what new content would have to be there for you to purchase an new game. That seems like a pretty large amount of new material and worthy of a stand alone game.

Valve has not said that they are abandoning L4D1 and in fact one developed interview said that more material was coming for L4D1.

I get the feeling that most of the outrage is from PC gamers who expected a lot of free stuff down that road. As an xbox gamer I knew better than to expect free DLC and was surprised that the first DLC content came free of charge.


You make a fine argument Finbogg. Yes, I did expect more in terms of free content. Granted, this was only an expectation, never a promise.

What gets me, however, is that once L4D2 is out, much of the playerbase migrates. I'm then left with the L4D elite, and can't get a good game in at my skill level. This is what happened with games like Starcraft and CoD4.

Really, it comes down to my perception of Value. I don't think L4D exhibited the level of finish I'm used to from Valve. By the time they get it fixed, they tell me they want me to buy a new one. I say "hey, it seems to me you only just finished the last one", but Valve doesn't seem to care what I think. Fortunately, I am not the only person a bit cheezed off.

Really, I don't know why I keep replying on this thread. I guess its just that I don't agree with you, finbogg, but I can see that Valve is acting within their rights, and eventually lived up to their commitments. In many regards you are 100% correct.

But why can't some of you see where I am coming from? I'm not asking for a gold watch and a pat on the back, I'm just asking not to be discounted as the village idiot.

Can anyone name a "AAA" title developed in less than a year? Something they would pay full price for? Have I taken crazy pills?

[the soUL TRAder]

If you own a 360, you should've seen it coming the way MS handled their first console.

Jeez, this thread isn't even about your fanbios BS.

Just because to you everything is about the platform, not the games, which really means you're not a gamer at all, but a platformist, dosen't mean you need to inject your bias where it dosen't fit.

[WpnX]

Says the guy who earlier in this thread gave a very loud "fuck you" to people?

You misread my post. I thought the italics would make it more clear. I was trying to point out that I only wanted state my dissatisfaction, but everyone else seemed to take it personally.

As was pointed out earlier, the italicized portion should probably be in quotes.

[Zetsuei]

You do realize that gaming is not a necessary aspect of life, and that Valve (and other game developers) are doing you a favor by making video games in the first place, right? Stop being such a whiny bitch. You aren't entitled to anything.

No shit gaming isn't necessary. They aren't doing me a favor when they create a second game which means they are abandoning the first game, when buyers are indeed entitled to content updates. You sound like a fucking dumbass.

If the first game had been released in a complete form (all levels playable as they are now), all the bugs resolved before release, and they had never once mentioned content updates, then I would be all for L4D2. Also, if L4D2 had an upgraded graphics engine, and used entirely new content (as a fucking sequel should), then I will also be entirely for L4D2. As it stands, the game is just one large DLC that they're turning into a sequel.

There's still time for them to publicly announce that they are still working on creating content for L4D, but until they do (which is doubtful) one can only assume they are indeed abandoning the game. But hey, if tomorrow Valve says, "Hey, don't worry guys. We'll still release a couple new campaigns to L4D like we said we would," I'll never talk shit on L4D2 again. Simple as that.

[lockwoodx]

I'm not buying L4D2. The first one had less content than an original game boy game.

[Kataron]

No shit gaming isn't necessary. They aren't doing me a favor when they create a second game which means they are abandoning the first game, when buyers are indeed entitled to content updates. You sound like a fucking dumbass.

What I'm unclear about is why you're entitled to content updates. You paid for the game, therefore they should add to the game for free just for you?

I paid for the game and very much enjoyed my purchase, with or without content updates, and fell that it was completely worth it.

If they're going to put this much effort into it, and it does look like quite a bit of effort, then they deserve to be paid for their effort.

[WpnX]

If they're going to put this much effort into it, and it does look like quite a bit of effort, then they deserve to be paid for their effort.

Granted, but how much money for how much effort?

[Kataron]

Granted, but how much money for how much effort?

Considering the new characters, new campaigns, new weapons, new zombies, and most importantly the improved AI director that can alter the levels themselves, I'd say they deserve the full game price for it. It's so much more than just extra content. They're probably been developing it since L4D came out, it will be a full year's worth of work, we can't possibly demand it all for free.

[Zetsuei]

"So each time we've released one of those for Team Fortress 2 we've seen about a 20% increase in the number of people who are playing online. And that number is really important because it determines how many community created maps there are, how many servers are running, and so on. So we'll do the same thing with Left 4 Dead where we'll have the initial release and then we'll release more movies, more characters, more weapons, unlockables, achievements, because that's the way you continue to grow a community over time." - Gabe Newell

That is why we're entitled. Granted he didn't sign a contract with every gamer promising new content, but I and many others took him for his word.

If you're happy paying 50 dollars to beta test a game, and another 50 to play that same game with some added content, go for it. I don't care what other gamers do. No one's forcing me to buy L4D2, and that's why I don't give a shit about new Madden every year. I don't have to buy the same game with incremental upgrades. Buuuuut I will definitely judge people who are foolish enough to do so.

[Kataron]

Incremental upgrades? So everything they've done, that's just incremental to you? Good Lord. When has a game delivered everything it promised to? Did Fable have the real-time aging it promised? Did Halo 3 have the fully destructible environments it promised? No, no they did not. Were they bad games? No, they were great games.

Valve continues to update TF2 though it came out two years ago, and L4D2 is not on the shelves as of yet, so there's no reason to assume that they're simply giving up on the original game. Valve has a good track-record of not screwing gamers over.

[Zetsuei]

There's still time for them to publicly announce that they are still working on creating content for L4D, but until they do (which is doubtful) one can only assume they are indeed abandoning the game. But hey, if tomorrow Valve says, "Hey, don't worry guys. We'll still release a couple new campaigns to L4D like we said we would," I'll never talk shit on L4D2 again. Simple as that.

Same game engine, re-used models and animations, re-used textures, re-skinned guns, re-used sound effects. A few new melee weapons and special infected. Some new campaigns. That sounds incremental to me.

[Venkman]

That is why we're entitled.

That's why you act entitled. You pay for what is described on the box. If you looked at the box, you got exactly what you expected and then some based on the free updates.

[finbogg]

But why can't some of you see where I am coming from? I'm not asking for a gold watch and a pat on the back, I'm just asking not to be discounted as the village idiot.

Can anyone name a "AAA" title developed in less than a year? Something they would pay full price for? Have I taken crazy pills?

Actually I don't think you're completely wrong that L4D1 will not get the expansive treatment that people initially hoped for and expected. My issue is more with people (like the ones that started the boycott) who seem to automatically assume that Valve is giving us the finger by putting out a sequel within a year. The presumptuous outrage is out of line with what most of us already know about how Valve treats gamers.

Can they deliver a great game in a year? In this case, I believe they can. They have the creative staff and the technical framework they need to do a great job. As I said before the only limitation on my gaming is time, not money, but I realize that is not that case for everyone and some people won't feel they can justify buying another game. Personally, I got way more than $50 value out of L4D1 so I'm okay with moving on to a sequel and paying $50 for that as well even if it was just as good as the first one. Since this one is being touted as better, then that makes the decision even easier.

[WpnX]

Considering the new characters, new campaigns, new weapons, new zombies, and most importantly the improved AI director that can alter the levels themselves, I'd say they deserve the full game price for it. It's so much more than just extra content. They're probably been developing it since L4D came out, it will be a full year's worth of work, we can't possibly demand it all for free.

Assuming they started on this game right after finished L4D, then yes, it would be a tad less than a year's worth of content.

However, as I have stated in previous posts, full-priced retail games generally take longer than a year to complete. The only exception is with annual sports franchises, which everyone agrees is not the way L4D should be going.

I'd be happy to give Valve another $25 for an official L4D expansion pack. After a year, this makes sense. I just object to be charged full price for a whole new game.

L4D was unfinished when it came out. This is a fact. It was finished with the recent patch, which probably would have come out sooner if Valve wasn't hard at work on the sequel.

Please tell me where my logic fails.

[Kataron]

Most sequels I've played have used the same, usually somewhat tweaked, game engine. We don't know much about the animations, textures, guns, or most of the rest of the game because they haven't announced it yet.

Not to mention the improved director AI.

I'd hardly call that incremental.

[WpnX]

Most sequels I've played have used the same, usually somewhat tweaked, game engine. We don't know much about the animations, textures, guns, or most of the rest of the game because they haven't announced it yet.

Not to mention the improved director AI.

I'd hardly call that incremental.

Except for the AI director, what you described could also be a free mod.

And I say again: did anyone ask for a new AI director? It worked fine. I'm not convinced that anyone would notice an improved AI director.

[Zetsuei]

The AI now changes the level lay out in certain spots of the level depending on how many health-packs/ammo you have left.

That's incremental. If you look at the videos of the game, you'll see for yourself about the other stuff. They don't need to announce it. It's all recycled.

Except for incendiary ammo that catches zombies on fire as if they were burlap sacks dipped in gasoline. WOAH~!

[finbogg]

Here is an interview with Chet Faliszek explaining the motivation for a sequel and not just piecemeal updates:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/06/before-its-time-valve-explains-left-4-dead-sequel-to-ars.ars

I think he does a decent job of explaining their thought process on the matter. As usual, there's a lot more work and consideration that goes into game changes/improvements than most gamers will give a developer credit for. As it stands we know only a bit of what will be in the sequel and yet, everyone is lighting the torches and sharpening their pitchforks.

[Kataron]

Are you kidding me? You think nobody will notice a different path every time they go through a campaign?

I asked for that. I got tired of the same campaigns, knowing all the twists and turns of the levels. That's what I'm most excited for in this game, and that could hardly be done in a mod.

And if you want the other things from a mod so badly, then go program it. Oh wait, you don't know how to? Well, who would. Oh, I've got it, Valve would. Buy the damn game or don't, have fun or don't. It's not a huge sum of money.

[finbogg]

The AI now changes the level lay out in certain spots of the level depending on how many health-packs/ammo you have left.

That's incremental. If you look at the videos of the game, you'll see for yourself about the other stuff. They don't need to announce it. It's all recycled.

Um no. The AI director changes the placement of consumables now. In L4D2 it will actually change the map and the path you have to take to get to the next safehouse. That feels more than incremental to me if used to its full effect.

[Zetsuei]

It's going to change certain parts of the map. You go into a garden maze, and it changes the lay out. You go into a parking lot full of cars that you have to go around, and it changes the layout. It's not going to change entire levels from beginning to end.

And if you want the other things from a mod so badly, then go program it. Oh wait, you don't know how to? Well, who would. Oh, I've got it, Valve would. Buy the damn game or don't, have fun or don't. It's not a huge sum of money.

How the fuck do you know if I don't know how to program or not. Wait to make a stupid-ass assumption to prove a stupid-ass point. And 50 bucks isn't a small sum of money either, assuming you aren't getting weekly allowances from mom and dad, and have to pay bills monthly. Not everyone makes 50,000 dollars a year.

[WpnX]

Are you kidding me? You think nobody will notice a different path every time they go through a campaign?

I asked for that. I got tired of the same campaigns, knowing all the twists and turns of the levels. That's what I'm most excited for in this game, and that could hardly be done in a mod.

And if you want the other things from a mod so badly, then go program it. Oh wait, you don't know how to? Well, who would. Oh, I've got it, Valve would. Buy the damn game or don't, have fun or don't. It's not a huge sum of money.

Multiple paths is one of the more appealing aspects of L4D2, granted. But one can hardly attribute the AI director to this feature. This is an improvement to the campaigns, not the director.

An improvement to the director would be something more akin to zombies focusing attacks on the person with the most powerful weapon, or the person best able to deal with an upcoming obstacle.

[Kataron]

I simply assumed that if you had the ability and the time to do so yourself, you would already make the mod, and not be whining about the game. Fair assumption. And yes, fifty dollars IS a small sum of money. No, I do not get a weekly allowance, and yes, I have monthly bills. If you can't afford it, then it hardly matters, does it?

And the multiple paths not being attributed to the AI director? That's just incorrect. It's already been stated that the director will observe how well the players are doing and adjust these sections of the maps accordingly. That is entirely and completely in the realm of the director. And that is a large update.

I grow weary of this argument, I'm moving on with my day now.

[RoflusPrime]

It's not surprising that a lot of people are mad, it's simple human nature. The way I see it, there are two primary principles at play:
1. Not meeting expectations.
2. "Close but no cigar" phenomenon. (i.e. we are MORE upset when we miss a flight by a few minutes than if we had missed it by a few hours).

Left4Dead is a fun, well designed game that most players expected frequent updates and new content. Instead we had a lot of server issues early on, and bug/exploit fixing updates seemed few and far between. We waited how long for versus mode to be available for half the maps? Personally I thought that was a little ridiculous. Now we are hearing about a sequel shortly after the first game has been polished with patches but no real new content has been released.

When expectations are not met, people become unsatisfied regardless of the quality of the product (sometimes even MORE unsatisfied when the quality is good, because in their minds just a few tweaks would make the product so much better). Whether or not those feelings are valid, I'll let someone else decide.

[WpnX]

And if you want the other things from a mod so badly, then go program it. Oh wait, you don't know how to? Well, who would. Oh, I've got it, Valve would. Buy the damn game or don't, have fun or don't. It's not a huge sum of money.

I would try to program it, only the SDK was promised, then released horribly late. And now there's a sequel, so why bother with the SDK at all? It's not even out of beta, according to that Ars article.

[Froggy]

Sorry, but I will never hold the needs of a developer over the wants of the consumer. Never.


But I thought that...
Wal-Mart can sell whatever the hell they want. IT'S THERE STORE, AND THERE IS NO GREY AREA.
And I guess it's Valve's company...? Why can't we complain about Wal-Mart's inconsistent censorship policies but we can complain about the sale of presumably less-than-stellar product at full retail?

...we will continue to be "shoveled" shit, and be expected to take it.

Or not. You don't have to buy it. But you shouldn't expect Valve (Or Wal-Mart) to uphold your values. You said it yourself:

Do you feel entitled to purchase Trent's CD there? Do you feel your values should be upheld by Wal-Mart?

And then there's...

I applaud anyone who stands up for what they want.

Except, of course, Trent Rezner, Green Day, and anyone else who speaks out against Wal-Mart. I presume, though. You may need to clarify.

[AversionFX]

By the way - I'm genuinely sorry if I offended you somehow. I am just trying to have a conversation here without being called a "whiny bitch". I know some people around here are too cool for school, but name-calling is the last resort of pre-pubescent internet trolls. We can do better.

Take a step back and consider your stance: You are upset because a game developer is releasing a sequel to a wildly popular game.

It is absolutely beyond me why video game hobbyists would be mad about a game developer giving them more of what they want. It's my understanding that the people who create the entertainment we consume do so because they enjoy creating the entertainment that we consume. So... why would you be mad about it?

It's obviously not about the money, because most of the people prevalent in online communities are shelling out X amount of dollars for the myriad Sims packs, or the yearly roster updates for any given sports title, or the constant barrage of music games and the premium DLC offered for those. This whole "outrage" about L4D 2 just reeks of a sense of entitlement.

So in short, I don't know what people are complaining about. If it's some big deal, don't buy it, problem solved. I don't know what you hope to accomplish by pissing and moaning about it. I understand the notion of trying to tear down the people who are genuinely interested in the game, but the idea that people have to support "their side" is so insanely ridiculous. We're talking about video games, here.

And 50 bucks isn't a small sum of money either, assuming you aren't getting weekly allowances from mom and dad, and have to pay bills monthly. Not everyone makes 50,000 dollars a year.

So, rather than just resign yourself to not buying the game, you throw a tantrum about how it's expensive, and that it won't be free. My Entitlement'o'Meter just broke!

[WpnX]

Take a step back and consider your stance: You are upset because a game developer is releasing a sequel to a wildly popular game.


This is not why I am upset. You can read my other posts, because I've already spent more time on this thread than it's worth.

After you've done that, you can give me the name of a full-price "AAA" title that was made in under a year which doesn't start with Madden or Rockband. Then you can tell me why SDK took so long to come out.

I'm not trying to tear down anyone interested in the game. I would be very interested if I didn't already buy it a few months ago at full price. I only speak up because video games are something I feel passionate about, and I'm really only in it for friendly debate. That's why I hate it when people start taking shit personally or making fun of me because I'm from Canada. These are games - lighten up - we can still talk about them.

But hey, the boycott group made it to past 6000 people today. I guess we're nuts.

[DarkDaY]

lolol, internet anger. This world is fuked.

At least I get a laugh out of it.

o, I have an idea.....uh........don't buy it if you aren't happy????

[wahlnut1977]

People need to quit their pointless whining. L4D was an amazing game that they have supported with FREE DLC. Now they are releasing an all new game. new levels, characters, weapons, game modes. If you don't enjoy L4D, don't buy it and shut up. But don't pretend like Valve is trying to screw gamers over by releasing after 1 year.

[Begrimed]

Well, while all you girls are bitching about having to spend $60, I'll be enjoying an awesome game. Have fun complaining.

[Venkman]

My original post stands.

That boycott petition online is for losers and whiney emo teenagers. I'm sure Valve will cave in under the enormous pressure of an anonymous internet petition.

Ah, well. And I'm sure you boycotters are overdue for a diaper change.

Somebody call the "WAAAAAAAmbulance!"

[Fubl]

Im still trying to figure out how people are saying an expansion pack is <25 dollars most of the ones that have came out in the last 5 years the few that there are where actually in the 30-40 range..

[Evil Avatar]

Im still trying to figure out how people are saying an expansion pack is <25 dollars most of the ones that have came out in the last 5 years the few that there are where actually in the 30-40 range..

Console expansion packs run about $30.00. In the good old days, PC game expansion packs were $19.99.

Though, lets give props to Rockstar for giving us a major expansion pack for $20 and to Criterion for giving us a major expansion pack for... um... free!

[Cantatus]

L4D always struck me as not necessarily matching Valve's vision, which makes sense since it was primarily developed by Turtle Rock (until Valve bought them out, but even then, the team working on it was mainly the same). L4D2 seems like it's more along the lines of what Valve would've wanted were they to develop the game from the start.

As far as the complaints go, some I find largely stupid. L4D2 is going to take place during the day!? Oh no! Because zombies never come out during the day? It's too bright and colorful? Because everywhere should look like Pennsylvania?

I can't say I disagree much with the concerns over the pricing though. Despite what Valve may say, I don't see this as really being a "full sequel". It is certainly not a sequel in the way TF2 was to the original Team Fortress or the way Half-Life 2 was to the first Half-Life. They're reusing a ton of stuff from L4D, which saves them a significant amount of work. It seems to be more of an expansion than a sequel, so I can't see why it's worth the "full price".

Ah well, I didn't pay $50 for L4D, and I'm not going to pay it for L4D2. I'm satisfied with waiting for the price to drop enough to where I feel it is worth it. I respect Valve too much as a company to say I'm going to boycott this product, but the whole thing does give me pause.

[AversionFX]

After you've done that, you can give me the name of a full-price "AAA" title that was made in under a year which doesn't start with Madden or Rockband. Then you can tell me why SDK took so long to come out.

But hey, the boycott group made it to past 6000 people today. I guess we're nuts.

I fail to see why the length of development is so important. If L4D2 has the same amount of content or more than L4D had at launch, I would be stoked. And I love how people are comparing this to shit like Madden. The first sequel, and they're already calling it shovelware. Oh the sense of entitlement!

I would usually reserve a boycott for racial discrimination, but hey, we can boycott a video game because ... because dammit, we were screwed over! :confused:

[finbogg]

So here's an interview with Doug Lombardi about Valve's thinking in why it's a sequel and not DLC.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/06/04/valve-on-l4d2-trust-us-a-little-bit/#more-12542

Since I'm already on board with their thinking it doesn't change my point of view. He brings up a good point that people need to trust them an bit and wait until they know all the details about what L4D2 will contain before they freak out.

[E Huntington]

I'm just an outsider to this whole argument, but I can't believe the hostility of this thread. It reminds me of the early 360 / PS3 arguments. As someone who really didn't like L4D, I find all this hostility puzzling. This "issue" is hardly important enough to get into camps over, just accept that there's going to be some feedback for L4D2 and go enjoy L4D for a bit.

[TheBot]

I'm w/ Mr Green, and I can't believe I'm saying that, but yeah.

What I think may have sounded better was that they go in the direction of episodic content, because it seems to be faster for L4D than it ever was for HL2. Am I right or am I right? Car Ep3 where are you? Maybe the #2 is throwing people off, but it appears to be a simple expansion, and not a complete sequel to it. Maybe they'll change the name to like, L4D:New Orleans or something.

I'd be interested in different cities as locations, even if it's not the real city, but similar, much like F3 is doing w/ Anchorage, the Pitt, etc.

[brandonjclark]

My original post stands.

That boycott petition online is for losers and whiney emo teenagers. I'm sure Valve will cave in under the enormous pressure of an anonymous internet petition.

Ah, well. And I'm sure you boycotters are overdue for a diaper change.

Somebody call the "WAAAAAAAmbulance!"

Doesn't matter what thread I visit, I can always find Venkman whining about someone other than himself. It'd be nice to see YOU STOP YOUR BITCHING.

[WpnX]

I fail to see why the length of development is so important. If L4D2 has the same amount of content or more than L4D had at launch, I would be stoked. And I love how people are comparing this to shit like Madden. The first sequel, and they're already calling it shovelware. Oh the sense of entitlement!

I would usually reserve a boycott for racial discrimination, but hey, we can boycott a video game because ... because dammit, we were screwed over! :confused:

Lenght of development is a good indicator of how much effort was put into the game. Please keep in mind that everything Valve has said seems to support the idea that this pack started out as DLC, then became a sequel once the L4D team realized it would be too complicated to release as a patch.

However, any MMO player knows that patches can be huge, overwriting a large portion of existing code. This would be especially easy for Valve, as L4D runs off of Steam as a platform, and large chunks of code can be overwritten automatically. As such, I think what Valve meant to say was this was too complicated to release as an Xbox 360 patch, but I digress...

Still, I think 18 months is the least amount of time I would expect to go into a really good, 'AAA' game from a reputable studio. The fact that Valve is pushing this out the door in less than 12 months indicates to me that several short-cuts were made. The only type of games that enjoy sequels this often are sports games such as Madden is why you keep seeing that comparison, in case you were still wondering.

Additionally, I don't think it's fair that you trivialize my opinion by essentially saying "It's not racial discrimination, and thus you are stupid for boycotting it". The fact that I've been discriminated against based on my citizenship (in this very thread) aside, I can boycott anything I please, and if I consider it a valid reason to do so, then that's my prerogative. You don't have to agree with it.

However, if and when Valve offers some sort of pricing deal to people who bought L4D, then felt ripped off, would you have the strength of character to pay full price for the sequel? Would you say thanks to myself and the others in this thread who felt short-changed, and made their tiny voices heard?

[see colon]

I bought L4D on the PC with some friends in the 4 pack. We all pitched in about $35. Acording to my Steam profile I've put 96 hours into the game. That's, what, between 35ȼ and 37ȼ an hour?

L4D2 is supposed to have more content than the original. I'll buy it on day one.

[sol740]

Lenght of development is a good indicator of how much effort was put into the game. Please keep in mind that everything Valve has said seems to support the idea that this pack started out as DLC, then became a sequel once the L4D team realized it would be too complicated to release as a patch.



So I guess Duke Nukem would be the greatest game of all time. You know what another indicator of a good game is ? The developer's past efforts.

[WpnX]

So I guess Duke Nukem would be the greatest game of all time. You know what another indicator of a good game is ? The developer's past efforts.

We can sit around pretending that no one here has any idea what conditions typically contribute to a good game, or you can acknowledge that it is unusual to have a full sequel within 12 months.

Granted, Valve has a good track record. It's just obvious to me that this game is built out of L4D, and feel that it would be dishonest to charge full price.

[rv_el]

The death of me is how difficult it is to identify subtle sarcasm through text. :(

lol i know! i wasn't being sarcastic though. I agreed with you.

Our generation is drunk on sarcasm, to the point that it truly is hard to tell in text, and even in voice at times, if somebody is being sarcastic or not. I choose to talk straighter than most people usually, cause i'm sick of the sarcasm.

[sol740]

Granted, Valve has a good track record. It's just obvious to me that this game is built out of L4D, and feel that it would be dishonest to charge full price.

So, and Halo 2 was built from Halo:CE. You need to put your preconceived notions about what developers are capable of away, until you can view the end product for yourself. The pre-whining is weak, cause all I hear now is WAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH, BUT IM ENTITLED, WAHHHHAAHHAHAHHAHH.

We can sit around pretending that no one here has any idea what conditions typically contribute to a good game, or you can acknowledge that it is unusual to have a full sequel within 12 months.


It may not be normal to have a sequel within a year, but that doesn't mean its going to bad. Coming from Valve, I fully expect the opposite. Though please, make up some other reason that you couldn't possibly have any substantial information about besides your "hunch".

[WpnX]

So, and Halo 2 was built from Halo:CE. You need to put your preconceived notions about what developers are capable of away, until you can view the end product for yourself. The pre-whining is weak, cause all I hear now is WAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH, BUT IM ENTITLED, WAHHHHAAHHAHAHHAHH.

Halo 2 had more than two years development time and it showed. I'm scared L4D2 will have less than a year of development time, and that it will likewise show.

And what's this about preconceived notions? If anything, you have as much of a reason to be optimistic as I do to be skeptical.

But nice with the all-caps though. Really classy. In all seriousness, it makes you sound foolish. I'm discontent, but you're the one making the big fuss. But go ahead and make fun of me some more if it makes you feel better about yourself.



It may not be normal to have a sequel within a year, but that doesn't mean its going to bad. Coming from Valve, I fully expect the opposite. Though please, make up some other reason that you couldn't possibly have any substantial information about besides your "hunch".


I'm not saying L4D2 will be a bad game. I'm saying they took L4D and put an extra year's work into it. They will then charge me full price to play their game, even though I had already paid for it the first time it was released. I don't mind paying for the extra year, but I already paid for all the work they put into it from 2005-2008.

2005-2008 = Three years
2008-2009 = One year

Three years > One year.

My 'hunch' has nothing to do with it.

[sol740]

WAHHHAHHHAHHHAHAHA I'M A BITCH WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Sorry all I could hear was WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

[blackzc]

Im going to boycott L4D2 as soon as im done boycotting L4D1

[trent0090]

I don't Valve will making any new friends on the PC side this time around. Here's a pretty funny video (http://is.gd/YyQt) that even talks about all the updates L4FD1 players where promised.

[Druxk]

Getting past my initial excitement of seeing the footage during E3 week, I am beginning to see the group's point. It really irks me the more I think about it. At the very least Valve should sell it for $19.99 a la GTAIV.