Dungeons and Dragons Online NDA Lifted

[Harbinger]

DUNGEONS & DRAGONS ONLINE: Stormreach confidentiality obligations has been lifted!

Turbine is pleased to announce that the confidentiality obligations in the Preview and Non-disclosure Agreement for the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS ONLINE: Stormreach Beta have been lifted earlier than anticipated. This means players in the Beta Program and those who took part in the Stress Test Events are free to talk about the game on public forums. After getting so much positive feedback from our Beta players, we felt it was time to let them share their opinions and praise for DDO with the rest of the MMOG community.
Click Here (http://www.ddo.com/) to read the full article.

Soon we'll see what the community thought as the MMO developed. Wasn't too great, IMHO. Lacked some personality and, my biggest gripe, seemed VERY enclosed. I never had the opportunity to explore the wilds as in WoW, and for me the exploration was a huge part of the fun. /shrug

[Com_Gaunt]

The whole "instanced dungeon" concept sounds interesting :)

[XenonCJ]

The whole "instanced dungeon" concept sounds interesting :)"WoW" what a concept...

[TrackZero]

Funny, Alex off diggnation was already discussing this game a few weeks back. Prehaps he didn't realize he was under an NDA. He went on about how it's good, but they had stole lots of ideas from WoW (which, to be fair, WoW borrowed many of their gameplay elements from MMOs before it).

[eatme]

Funny, Alex off diggnation was already discussing this game a few weeks back. Prehaps he didn't realize he was under an NDA. He went on about how it's good, but they had stole lots of ideas from WoW (which, to be fair, WoW borrowed many of their gameplay elements from MMOs before it).

No, to be really fair, DDO is far more different from WoW than WoW was from EQ.

I also don't have any problem with people cloning games as much as they like, and innovation doesn't win you a damned thing if it's a crappy innovation.

I was looking forward to this game, but Turbine's such a cluster, I'd be shocked if they could actually run an MMO.

[Cha-Ka]

The main thing I heard from the beta testers I know is "combat isn't very fun". That put me off since the chief ingredient in any MMO is lots of fighting.

[CacheMoney]

OK OK -

I was in the beta and I'm here to report that (in my opinion) it is a very boring game. I played it for at least 15 hours but had to stop becasue my eyes were bleeding.

They do a lot of interesting things (you can climb ladders, multi-level combat stuff, narrative mission stuff, etc.) that are also ambitious. The end result however (IMO) is a lackluster experience.

Before the "you don't play D" people jump in on this, I'd like to say I am a HUGE HUGE D&D fan. I was very disappointed by this game and would tell everyone to save their money. Changes to the game later in the beta were pretty much useless to adjusting the overall experience.

Take my words for what they are - my opinion. If you have a different one, please share it. If you think I'm a jerk for posting you must obviously agree with me about the game but are too embarrassed to say it and are suffering from a severe case of fan-boy syndrome.

I put the above disclaimers so I don't have to come back and defend my opinion.

Again - 15 hours in the game and it's boring. Turbine please spice this game up.

Word.

Money

[hotdrop]

Well now that theres no NDA let me be the first to reveal that its not fun :)

[CacheMoney]

Agreed! - not fun as stated above...

[goc_sin]

I tried the beta and have to say that you will probably get a better D & D experience from Neverwinter Nights 2, and a more enjoyable one at that. Dungeons and Dragons online is not really that fun to play.

[Vermy81]

I have never played this game before but the fact that it's not in Forgotten Realms & lacks half elves, half-orcs and Druids struck me as a big turn-off. So, when is NWN2 coming out for multiplayer D&D goodness?

[Kefkataran]

have never played this game before but the fact that it's not in Forgotten Realms & lacks half elves, half-orcs and Druids struck me as a big turn-off. So, when is NWN2 coming out for multiplayer D&D goodness?

Yeah, but personally I think we NEED more games outside the Forgotten Realms. It's an overused universe, and there's plenty of other interesting ones D&D games could go to. Problem is, they need to do those games right.

[Sykus]

Everybody keeps saying it's not really fun to play. Can anyone give any specifics? I was kind of looking forward to this game.

[Vermy81]

Yeah, but personally I think we NEED more games outside the Forgotten Realms. It's an overused universe, and there's plenty of other interesting ones D&D games could go to. Problem is, they need to do those games right.

One of the things I love about WoW though and would have been very interested in here is the virtual sight-seeing aspect of the game. I've been to Azeroth several times, I know the story real well both the stuff that's in all the manuals and in the games and seeing places like that is very cool bonus points as you go. A FR MMO would have had me interested just on a touristic level to go to Athlataka, Neverwinter, the forests of Tethir etc. There is so much history tied up in FR that it would have been a fantastic sight-seeing tour for a lot of stuff. I agree that their probably should have more D&D games outside of FR but I wouldn't have done it with an MMO.

[Crabby]

Newsflash

It is horrible, and they certainly did not need a NDA to protect that little secret.

Let me put it to you all in another way. The game is so bad that the recent PC Gamer article was 100% fluff due to the glaring bias of not mentioning any of the problems whatsoever.

[GrinR]

It's not fun mainly because it's clunky, the quests are just as boring as every other MOG, and the interface is user-hostile.

I'll never understand why developers don't just take the best there is and improve it, instead of reinventing the wheel OVER and OVER again.

[Kefkataran]

There is so much history tied up in FR that it would have been a fantastic sight-seeing tour for a lot of stuff. I agree that their probably should have more D&D games outside of FR but I wouldn't have done it with an MMO.

There's just as much if not more history for a setting like Dragonlance. It's just never been used much in a videogame setting. But that's one reason I'd love to see one in MMO-form -- sight-seeing.

[CrysDark]

I was in this beta, and I love most mmorpg's. They all have thier own take on the genre, and offer their own unique benifits. This game is terrible. What a wasted opportunity to cash in on one of the most well known IP's in the industry. Wizards of the Coast should be ashamed they liscensed thier product to Turbine.

You need to break MMORPG into generations, with EQ being g1, and WOW g2 Vanguard and Upcomming games will be g3.


From this game you should expect the boundries to be pushed in everything from graphics to quests, it doesn't. EQ (a g1) has a better quest system, the graphics are no where near g3 graphics. The graphics are just a slight nudge above EQ1, AC2 had better.

Clunky is the perfect way to discribe this game, the quest system is clunky, travel is clunky, grouping is awful, graphics are awful, spells are clunky. Combat, while inventive, poorly executed.

Just... Plain..... Awfull.

[Derella]

I was in the second stress test. The interface was horrible, and despite statements made to the contrary, DDO feels nothing like D&D. The combat is twitch-based, the UI is inconsistant, and several core classes/races are missing.

They dont even bother to take advantage of the interesting setting they chose... Instead of having players adventure in the fleshed-out areas of Eberron, they set it on a continent that hasn't been detailed at all. The end result is a game that isn't fun to play, and could be set in any generic fantasy game.

I feel sorry for Turbine... They have two of the most popular licenses ever lined up for MMOs, and they can't even produce a mediocre game. I'm less than optimistic about their next game, Lord of the Rings Online.

[NoName]

I've been in the game since the first beta. I tried, very very hard, to like it. I've played D&D for years.

The game is way to repetitive, and not exciting. There's nothing pulling me back.

While I liked the grouping system (there's no solo content, period. Many people don't like that...), talking to people was the most fun in the game.

The combat system was interesting, but it's a poor Diablo clone.

I dono, after playing the beta I've decided I have no interest in buying it retail. It's sad, Turbine has a great group of devs who actually talk to the people in the forums. Their vision just didn't make a good game.

[rein]

I have not connected well with Turbine MMO's. I beta tested this one some and just could not get into it. I felt the same way with Asherons Call. For whatever reason their games just do not draw me in like other MMORPGS. I don't know why.

[51|RandoM]

I had lots of fun, till I ran out of content.

With absolutely nothing in the game to do except group and run through the quests, as soon as you've run through every quest a few times, it gets really boring. At that point, you'll want to start trying different approaches/techniques, but nobody in your group will because they're in a hurry to level and fear the death penalty.

Once you've done the Tempest raid mission normally (i.e. with a raid group, not with a 4 man invisible, fire immune, featherfalling, PK spamming group)there just isn't anything left even remotely interesting/exciting.

[Karmakin]

Sorry to say it.

But on the day where info is released about the Guild Wars:Factions, most things look blah to me.

Why do I get the feeling that GW is really the "bottom" level for MMO's? Meaning, in order to really be successful in any way, you NEED to have something over GW.

[Harbinger]

I am glad to see I wasn't the only one who found DDO to be a waste of a good license. I'm currently playing in a DnD game set in Eberron and it's a great campaign world full of interesting twists on the traditional fantasy---such as mundane magic to power simple items around the world (from street lanterns to elemental-powered skycoaches that ply the skies of Sharn, the City of Towers), the warforged, the lightening rails, and enough mystery to rival the Forgotten Realms. wtf, I will never understand how they managed to take something so wide open and make it feel so enclosed.

[51|RandoM]

Sorry to say it.

But on the day where info is released about the Guild Wars:Factions, most things look blah to me.

Why do I get the feeling that GW is really the "bottom" level for MMO's? Meaning, in order to really be successful in any way, you NEED to have something over GW.

GW doesn't count as an MMO to most people. It is instanced from top to bottom. DnDO isn't really an MMO either. It and guildwars are two faces of the same coin. One face = pvp, the other face = pve. As such, it boggles my mind that somebody would subscribe to DnD0.

[PIPBoy3000]

For the curious, NWN2 has an unofficial release date of June 2006, though I suspect it might slip to Fall or Christmas. The game engine is based on NWN, so the gameplay is familiar, and the graphics (http://gamebanshee.com/news/static/EEFyyyAkAFyIMwFwHP.php) look great. I'm personally planning on making a single player campaign (http://adamandjamie.com/da/) for the game, and I know you'll see a bunch of user-run MMORPGs too.

So for all you D&D fans out there, I think there's at least one good game on the horizon.

[bobbler]

I have yet to play an MMO that is actually fun when you play by yourself or don't know anyone. WoW doesn't come close, so don't try -- it has some novelty but it's still very boring if you don't have people to play with or talk to.

I think people put too much importance on gameplay in MMOs, becaues truly, MMOs have nothing to do with gameplay and everything to do with the feel of the world and players. EQ and UO thrived, and neither of them were fun in the gameplay department, but they had compelling worlds and people. WoW succeeded because it polished some stuff that worked and had the Blizzard name on it, it's gameplay isn't all that much fun if you look at it in a vacuum -- it's a continuous grind with no _real_ purpose (hence my view that gameplay doesn't matter so much in MMOs, because even the "best" sucks balls at it). If you're looking for compelling gameplay from an MMO you're going to hate every single MMO out (except maybe WoW, because people can't hate Blizzard games -- it's next to impossible ;)).

If you're going to play DnD online then play it, but you'll miss out on many fun times if you judge an MMO purely by gameplay (find a group of people or bring them with and you can have a lot of fun in any MMO that's currently out).

With that said, I can't stand MMOs anymore. Fuck them.

[Klade]

If they are smart they will release NWN2 before the fall rush when it will compete with every other game that will be released then. Of course no one ever accused a publisher's marketing dept of being smart. Still If I remember correctly, NWN came out in July? It was summer for sure, so you never know.

As for DDO, a friend of mine was in beta and he gave me the low down. Most of his comments echo what has already been said here. What most surprised me though was how painful death can be, especially when it occurs in a dungeon. Since you get no exp for killing mobs (only quests), if you die while in a dungeon you get nothing, and have to do it all again. This is very first gen MMO and something I thought we left behind when WoW took the market by storm.

As to the above.. I would say that gameplay is extremely important in an MMO and that there absolutely have been games that have had better gameplay then others and done better as a result. I don't think gameplay can be pinned down to say "combat". Instead I think it must be the entire action of playing the game to advance its goals. So that would include, questing, combat, trade skills, etc. The multiplayer portion of an MMO where you talk to people and interact is very very important, but its not the only thing that makes an MMO fun.

[Kefkataran]

WoW doesn't come close, so don't try -- it has some novelty but it's still very boring if you don't have people to play with or talk to.

Er, well, why would you WANT to play an MMO by yourself? What's the point of having a "MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER GAME" if you're not playing with other people? Anyways, I solo'd almost all the way from 1-60 in WoW. I had friends to chat with most the time, though, so of course it wasn't too horrible.

[Emabulator]

I had lots of fun, till I ran out of content.

With absolutely nothing in the game to do except group and run through the quests, as soon as you've run through every quest a few times, it gets really boring. At that point, you'll want to start trying different approaches/techniques, but nobody in your group will because they're in a hurry to level and fear the death penalty.

Once you've done the Tempest raid mission normally (i.e. with a raid group, not with a 4 man invisible, fire immune, featherfalling, PK spamming group)there just isn't anything left even remotely interesting/exciting.That's sounds an awful lot like AC2, more so in its trappings than design. Evan worst potentially, at least in a "traditional" mmo you have a large gameworld to explore and hunt on when the "lather, rinse, repeat" quest system goes flat. With this game Turbine has taken it a step further by eliminating the whole large gameworld hunting thing and leaving you with just the quests to repeat. I don't see how they can launch so slim on content (I've read 130 quests) and expect the monthly content updates to keep up with the demand in that system.

[Deadend]

No one mentioned that the game is just poorly balanced. Players have the same stats as in PnP, monsters have majorly boosted stats.

I wouldn't mind instanced missions, but why the hell are the missions not adjusted for the number of players/class? The game is practically built for melee fighters to click through.

There is also no reason NOT to spam click attacks, as blocking seems to be almost worthless most of the time. I would rather that they did something REALLY risky and make the combat turn-based. Not delay based like most MMOs, but flat out Turn Based.

The combat is already instanced, so why not?

[Busted_Astromech]

No good reason, except maybe that'd be stepping on the pen & paper game's toes. I don't know how Wizards is treating this property, but they were very careful in making sure Magic: The Gathering Online could not replace the physical cards (mainly by charging the same for virtual cards).

I know that's the reason we'll never see an accurate Games Workshop property (Warhammer) in a game--they don't want to undercut their market of $60 plastic model kits.

Of course, the reason it doesn't resemble real D&D could be as simple as a design decision: Turbine decided Neverwinter Nights could do the "D&D simulation" market and so they consciously designed a different game. Sure, it's stupid, but that seems to be par for the course.

[51|RandoM]

What most surprised me though was how painful death can be, especially when it occurs in a dungeon. Since you get no exp for killing mobs (only quests), if you die while in a dungeon you get nothing, and have to do it all again.


just a casual fyi, your friend didn't know wtf he was talking about.

a) if your party completes the quest and you're inside the dungeon, you get the EXP, whether you're dead, or alive. There are penalties if they did significant portions of it without you in the dungeon, but those don't apply in this situation.

b) Almost every dungeon has at least one rez shrine, so that you don't have to release from the dungeon and run back. If you have to, though, as long as you're back in the dungeon when they accomplish whatever triggers 'finished', you get the exp.

c) You get an exp penalty for dying. The worst is dying, releasing, and running back. Second worst is dying and then using rez shrine. Least worse is dying, then being raised by a cleric.

d) there are very few quests in the game that you *must* do. Almost all of them are in the starting area, just to familiarize you with the game. After those quests, the only real must-do quest is the first

Basically, the death penalty and/or reentry penalties are there to greatly reduce the rewards for people who attempt higher level dungeons and die multiple times, but still chip their way to the end. The downside of the penalties are that they are percentage based, so they go up each level. Couple that with the fact there are very few quests at high level that yield significant exp, and the prevalence of mobs with instant death spells and the urge to explore is vigorously stamped out.

[51|RandoM]

No one mentioned that the game is just poorly balanced. Players have the same stats as in PnP, monsters have majorly boosted stats.

I wouldn't mind instanced missions, but why the hell are the missions not adjusted for the number of players/class? The game is practically built for melee fighters to click through.

There is also no reason NOT to spam click attacks, as blocking seems to be almost worthless most of the time. I would rather that they did something REALLY risky and make the combat turn-based. Not delay based like most MMOs, but flat out Turn Based.


You're actually pushed towards a clickfest, as clicking is more efficient than using auto-attack.

The only person who ever has to use shift for blocking is the main tank. This is actually pretty important in the higher levels. Even with the puny ac on my rogue, a blocked minotaur rush = trivial damage, an unblocked mino rush usually = knocked unconscious, slowly bleeding to death

The missions are balanced towards an average full group, and I think that is actually the proper way to do the balancing. That is the way that promotes grouping. Most of the stuff under 6th level or so, you can just bull through with lots of tanks and a healer, but past that, if you don't have a mage, you become very inefficient. Sticking 6 trolls in a web and then laying down burning hands or fireball, with melee from acid/fire and/or giant bane weapons and a fight that would destroy the melee-centric group is trivial.

If they stick as closely to DnD character progression as they have so far, they're going to have serious issues with high level wizards(they already do, matter of fact).

[bobbler]

Er, well, why would you WANT to play an MMO by yourself? What's the point of having a "MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER GAME" if you're not playing with other people? Anyways, I solo'd almost all the way from 1-60 in WoW. I had friends to chat with most the time, though, so of course it wasn't too horrible.

Sorry, I may have not explained it fully. Many people in these betas (infact, I'd say most) just play it for a bit and judge it based on gameplay because they often don't have friends to play with (or talk to even)... so comparing an MMO without friends to the current one you play (assuming that much, if you're beta'ing an MMO) will give you a bit twisted view. Granted, I have no idea what DnD online is like, and I don't really care to find out, I was just trying to throw that out there. Far too often I see MMOs being thrashed for their gameplay value when they all actually commit the same crimes in that respect -- they flat out suck at the compelling gameplay part (turn on auto attack and mash 1 2 3 4 (or whatever macros you got) until the guy is dead, you don't even need to move your character most of the time!).

[51|RandoM]

That's sounds an awful lot like AC2, more so in its trappings than design. Evan worst potentially, at least in a "traditional" mmo you have a large gameworld to explore and hunt on when the "lather, rinse, repeat" quest system goes flat. With this game Turbine has taken it a step further by eliminating the whole large gameworld hunting thing and leaving you with just the quests to repeat. I don't see how they can launch so slim on content (I've read 130 quests) and expect the monthly content updates to keep up with the demand in that system.


Yep, that is it in a nutshell. If they had all of the fluff that most MMORPGs surround the real content with, the game would actually seem fairly complete, at least up to lvl 6 or 7. They don't have ANYTHING, though, nothing, nada, zilch. You don't even get to play music with your buddies like you could in AC2(probably the only thing in AC2 done right, sadly).

This is like PnP D&D, with a set number of modules, and a DM who never significantly mixes anything up. The game will throw in some optional boss encounters here and there, but the primary goals and path of every quest never differs.

It is a one month game, imho, and will need significant monthly updates to justify a subscription from all but the most casual of gamers.

[brekhus]

When I played through the first two stress tests, I thought that the rogue skills were pretty fun. The traps were kind of cool, and rogue felt a lot more traditional than in other MMO's.

That said, it is a ridiculous game to try to play on your own. The solo difficulty got exponentially higher before I even hit level 2. Being relegated to a city and its various cellars and sewers was pretty ridiculous too... an MMO without wilderness just isn't appealing to me. I still have hope that Turbine can pull off something cool by release, as the game always seemed to have huge potential... but I sort of doubt it.

[gawaintheblind]

I really wanted to like this. My group and I have two D&D games going right now, and I've always enjoyed mmorpgs over other games, so this seemed right up my alley. Unfortunately, this particular game plays like a tightly inclosed version of COH, except without any sort of imaginative quests or character customization. In fact, its so closed in, that it makes you feel clastrophobic when you play it. At least, it did to me. More than anything, as I played, I desperately wanted to "escape" the city, but coudn't. I don't know if you eventually get "out" at higher levels, as I only made it to level 3 or 4, but the early portion of this game is terrible.

I understand that an online version of a game normaly played tabletop cannot use the rules for the game verbatim. If you leveled at 1000exp (which normally nets you lvl 2 in 3rd ed D&D) in an mmorpg, then you would quickly have players maxing out in a few days. That being said, multiplying the exp required to level by 10 (making 10,000 lvl 2, if I remember correctly) means a whole lot of the same skills and abilities for way way too long. The little achievement skills or whatever that you got in between levels weren't varied enough to make up for the massive amount of time playing without any kind of character advancement.

I actually liked the combat. Having it "twitch" based instead of "run up and hit a key" made it seem more visceral, and I enjoyed being able to circle-strafe around enemies. Saying that its a poor diablo clone is misleading.. yes, its a clickfest, but you're also moving constantly.. I found that if I kept moving at all times, I got hit far less. It played more like a melee version of an fps to me. So combat I liked. Of course, last time I checked, they made the MOBs more resistant to circlestrafing, I think they probably just swing at you wherever you are now, though I havent played it recently to be sure.

The color palette for the world itself seems to be based on the same one for EQ2, except with a few colors devoted to neon. So basically you end up with giant patches of brown and gray, with every shade in between, with the addition of bright fluorescent pink and green lights everywhere. I suppose this is to make the world seem more "magical".

As far as graphics go otherwise, its not that impressive either. Im running dual Geforce7800 gtx cards, and turning it up even close to max made me lag in any areas where there were any number of people at high resolution. I realize its still in beta, and that further optomizations will more than likely occur (if they haven't already) but that kind of put me off, when doom3 and hl2 run so smoothly at max. I realize that the addition of other players adds just that much more graphics to process, but it seems to me that if its really that intensive, I should be getting something a little less blah, and with this game, im not.

Im not even going to talk about character balancing. Every mmorpg suffers from this, if you read the forums, and ever since I quit playing DAoC ive given up on any kind of balance. (and yes, that game wasn't particularly great at it either.) I can tell you that if it followed the Pen and Paper version of the game, then the powerful magic of the casters would be balanced (at least until very high levels) by the combat feats and multiple attacks of the melee classes. Unfortunately, since that kind of thing doesn't translate into a real time combat environment, I don't see that happening here, and I think they're going to have to basically dumb it down into "more hitpoints and ac for melee, more powerful spells for casters" that every other mmorpg has.

Overall, and Im sorry this was so long, but i've been wanting to bitch about this game for a while, I would say the biggest problem this game suffers from is the lack of large outdoor areas. One of the missions you run early in the game allows you to go and defend an outdoor area from kobolds or some such.. but the place is so choked with trees that you really can't see anything anyway. And the trees, if I recall correctly, were just godawful graphically.

[Citizen Philip]

So, after reading all these posts what your saying is: This game will replace WoW?

[EL CABONG]

I was thought D&D looked cool till I heard there was no pvp and the level cap is only ten.
Was it a mad grind to get to level 10?

[eatme]

I can tell you that if it followed the Pen and Paper version of the game, then the powerful magic of the casters would be balanced (at least until very high levels) by the combat feats and multiple attacks of the melee classes. Unfortunately, since that kind of thing doesn't translate into a real time combat environment, I don't see that happening here, and I think they're going to have to basically dumb it down into "more hitpoints and ac for melee, more powerful spells for casters" that every other mmorpg has.

I agree that 3rd Edition did a pretty awesome job of balancing out casters vs. melee with a fantastic feat system.

I disagree, though, that they couldn't translate into a real time combat environment. It's the unwillingness of MMO developers to deepen combat for melee classes that has led to most melee classes being simply brain dead to play.

Melee combat could be exciting! It doesn't have to be an autoattack or click-fest. If MMO developers would actually let players make important decisions in real-time, you wouldn't have to dual box (or more) to get an interesting play experience.

[Royal Fool]

I haven't been following this game that much, but I recall Turbine saying the game had mid-level feats and skills? Or something like that.

[bickle]

Feats of Strength? Sounds like Festivus =)