PS3 Controller Possibly Getting Makeover?

[Rakael]

The maligned PS3 concept controller was last seen at the 2005 Electronics Entertainment Expo in Los Angeles. The concept controller received poor reviews with critics citing a "batarang" look that would not be comfortable to hold.

The absence of the controller points to signs that Sony is redeveloping the unit to be more aesthetically pleasing to the eyes and hands. Its Dual Shock 2 controller is regarded in the video game community as one of the best console controller designs.
Full Article (http://news.punchjump.com/article.php?id=1863)

Get those boomerang jokes in now.

[Nite_Moogle]

Holy ergonomics Batman!

[BleedTheFreak]

They did look really painful to hold. It's funny how these days, *everything* has to look "sleek and elegant" no matter if it's useful or not to look like that. I really like the 360 controller, I never got into the Analog stick before, but I actually found I was using it for a fighting game of all things, which I would have *never* done if I hadn't been using it for CoD2 so much.

[Cha-Ka]

I hope this is true. The idea that Sony would make such a drastic move away from the dualshock controller design that has been so closely emulated by MS and Nintendo always struck me as odd.

[Genital Eclipse]

If they're 'redeveloping' this controller anywhere in Hawaii I will never buy another Sony product again for LIFE.

[Rirath]

I really, really want to see a redesigned controller. The Dual Shock is a great design, along with the Xbox controller. The GC controller I have issues with, but it's livable. (The button layout just doesn't work for me, confusing.)

[Rafer]

I hope this is true. The idea that Sony would make such a drastic move away from the dualshock controller design that has been so closely emulated by MS and Nintendo always struck me as odd.

And the thing that seemed odd to me is that I don't recall a lot of complaints about the shape of the dualshock. The usual complaints (that I agree with) are that there's too much of dead zone with the analog sticks and that the d-pad isn't comfortable.

Personally I think they should just make L2 and R2 triggers and leave it at that, though I've read that the boomerang is a comfortable shape, some pc controller had used and it was liked.

[if76]

Ok you guys are ridiculous. First and most importantly none of you guys have actually held the boomerand design in your hands. How can you say it's uncomfortable? Would it be such a shock if sony actually designed it with ergonomics and comfort in mind rather than just to 'try something new' as most of you contend?

Secondly, the dual shock isn't really the holy grail. It's just a PS1 controller with some joysticks tacked on and the R2 and L2 buttons enlarged. I would personally prefer the left joystick placed where the dpad is much like on the Xbox controller. I also find my thumbs slipping off the PS2 sticks a lot more than those on the Xbox gpad.

I'm just glad nintendo doesn't listen to knee-jerk fan reactions otherwise we'd never see any innovation.

[Cha-Ka]

I'm just glad nintendo doesn't listen to knee-jerk fan reactions otherwise we'd never see any innovation.

Don't wave that thing at me!

[Mason]

Sure, laud the controller redesign now, but some day you'll weep about how your DualShock3 proved useless in preventing a dingo from eating your baby.

[devicelimit]

Personally I find the PS2 controller the most uncomfortable controller out there right now. It's essentially a 2/3 generation old controller. Both the Xbox and Gamecube controllers are more comfortable and easier to use controllers than Playstations. The thing with the boomerang controller was it looked like it would pop out of your hands if you squeezed it. They also need to get with the times and put the analogue stick where the d-pad is.

[bone_matrix]

I hope this is true. The idea that Sony would make such a drastic move away from the dualshock controller design that has been so closely emulated by MS and Nintendo always struck me as odd.

SO....MUCH...WRONG...WITH....THIS...POST.....

Sony RIPPED off the SNES controller for the original PS1 controller. They added 2 extra shoulder buttons and that was it. Once Nintendo mainstreamed the analogue stick and rumble, Sony put that in its controllers. I'm not sure how microsoft emulated the dualshock. The first one had triggers, and the black and white buttons. No one really liked the black and white buttons, and wanted them on the top where they were easier to use, which Microsoft did with the 360. If anyone is emulating anyone, its Sony emulating Nintendo.

Edit: The Gamecube controller is nothing like the Dualshock either. It has triggers instead of buttons for shoulder buttons. If Sony wanted to improve the Dualshock 2, it should use triggers for the R2 and L2 buttons, and improve the analogue stick performance and move the left one to where the d-pad is and then make the d-pad better, then the Dualshock would be great. It would probably be the best controller ever.

Wait....Microsoft already did that..... :D

[Cool AN]

Sure, laud the controller redesign now, but some day you'll weep about how your DualShock3 proved useless in preventing a dingo from eating your baby.

Best PS 3 controller joke I have heard so far, any where.

[Sensei-X]

Now if they only would redesign the console and remove that dumb-ass slot loading drive.

[Heretic Machine]

Its Dual Shock 2 controller is regarded in the video game community as one of the best console controller designs.

By fucktards who don't see the value of asymetricaly positioning the analog sticks. I mean honestly, both Nintendo and Microsoft adopted this style, Sony is the only one that has kept theirs in the middle, side-by-side. It's uncomfortable, and needs to change.

Look at the Gamecube controller and the XBOX/S/360 controllers, you'll see they look very similar. There is a good reason for that.

[Kelegacy]

A Dual Shock 2 upgrade, meaning a slightly bigger controller for the average human hand, is all they really need. Don't mess with near-perfection.

[Abash Alarmist]

Yeah. I always found the Dual Shock 2 to be a bit small for comfort. I thought that the original xbox controller was good, then I touched the slimmer, and near perfect S Controller. That thing is bigger than your normal Dual Shock controller and is much easier to handle because of this very reason.

[Chimpbot]

I hope this is true. The idea that Sony would make such a drastic move away from the dualshock controller design that has been so closely emulated by MS and Nintendo always struck me as odd.

As it was mentioned, Sony essentially "ripped off" the SNES controller for the PSX controller.

If anything, Microsoft ripped off not Sony or Nintendo, but Sega for their controller design. Place the original XBox controller side-by-side with a Dreamcast controller; they're virtually identical. The similarities are fewer with the Type S, but they're still there, even in the 360's design.

Sony had the right idea by copying Nintendo's designs; they consistantly have good controller. Microsoft's decision to seemingly emulate Sega's design wasn't the best idea, but they've come into their own for the 360.
Sony's always had the worst controller, as far as I'm concerned; it's just not as comfortable or logical as the others. With this in mind, their DualShock design is still decently decent...but it's certainly not one of the best.

[KSmitty]

Well count me among the fucktards because I think the PS2 is great controller design. I never had a single problem with using the d-pad, buttons, triggers or analog sticks. The buttons on GC controller face are awkwardly placed and close together. The first X box controller was a joke, I liked the S design, but I still prefer two shoulder buttons to the white/black buttons with triggers. I used to play the shit out of Timesplitters 2 on PS2 and I never had any problems with the controller, or for driving games and I have always preferred the accuracy of a d pad for fighting games (well actually an arcade stick is the best but those things are pricey)


-K

[Kagger]

One thing I hate about the Xbox controller is the button labels.

Now...I've played too much ps2, so I'm used to x being the down button, so when I play the xbox I get messed up. However, what they did goes beyond my rut. It's probably do to copyright stuff, but the A button should not be the down button. All they did was keep the labels, and swap the postion of each "set" of 2 buttons from nintendo's standard, making it very hard to pick up and play for me. Dualshock's set up I've gotten used to, where those are. And Nintendo has kep theirs since SNES, but then you have the xbox, gah!

I love the joystick and positions of them though, those are great. But...

[SMES]

360 controller FTW.

The one thing I've noticed that I don't like about the 360 controller is that the D-Pad feels cheap. It scoots around it's center point and has an imprecise feel. I actually haven't used it except to navigate menus, so I don't care too much, but still. You would think the D-Pad would be a standard level of quality/design by now.

[Cha-Ka]

The dualshock was the first two-analog stick controller that I used and I find more comfortable than any other similar product on on the market. After extensive X-box usage I was able to get used to the asymmetrical positions of their two analog sticks, but I don't prefer it and I fail to see any advantage to that design. Triggers don't really appeal to me like they do to some of you, so that's not really something I find lacking.

Yes, Nintendo introduced the rumble pack, but the dualshock did it better. To say that the Xbox and Gamecube controllers weren't slight redesigns of the dualshock strikes me as delusional. Calling it a c-button doesn't make it any less of a second analog stick.

But really, what's the point of trying to talk someone out of their opinion. Why can't we all just get along?

/duck

[SMES]

The dualshock was the first two-analog stick controller that I used and I find more comfortable than any other similar product on on the market. After extensive X-box usage I was able to get used to the asymmetrical positions of their two analog sticks, but I don't prefer it and I fail to see any advantage to that design. Triggers don't really appeal to me like they do to some of you, so that's not really something I find lacking.

Yes, Nintendo introduced the rumble pack, but the dualshock did it better. To say that the Xbox and Gamecube controllers weren't slight redesigns of the dualshock strikes me as delusional. Calling it a c-button doesn't make it any less of a second analog stick.

But really, what's the point of trying to talk someone out of their opinion. Why can't we all just get along?

/duck

The point was: evolutionary improvements are what Sony has done, while Nintendo "pioneers"

Who did it 'better' is not what is being argued. The standard shape and controller design of MS/Sony is still so close to an NES/SNES controller it isn't funny. Add in the fact that the N64 was the first to have any analog thumb stick whatsoever, and that's where you get the dual shock.

Dual Shock = SNES + N64 + ergonomic evolution.

[Deathbane27]

I'll just make a few small points here.

The handles on the PS1 controller made it a LLLLLLOOOOOOOTTTTTTT easier to use the shoulder buttons. Pick up a SNES controller now and you'll start crying. Kudos to Sony for the handles, which Nintendo then copied on the N64.

My left thumb hurts after extended use of either the PS2 analog stick or the Xbox/Gamecube D-pad. I gather this is common. Leaving the d-pad where it is makes the PS1/2/3 controller more ergonomic for 2D games... which I suppose only matters if you're using it on your PC with a SNES/GBA emulator. :p

[fitbabits]

Asymetrical analog action is where it should be at. Part of the reason I seldom play on my PS2 is due to how uncomfortable the dual shock is. I get thumb and finger cramp after an hour. Oh, and add some analog triggers while you're at it.

[Player 1]

Look at the Gamecube controller and the XBOX/S/360 controllers, you'll see they look very similar. There is a good reason for that.

Would that reason be that they didn't want a game like Katamari Damacy to blight their systems?

If that game is the *only* justification for the aligned analogue controllers on a Dual Shock then that'd be good enough for me.


Yes, Nintendo introduced the rumble pack, but the dualshock did it better. To say that the Xbox and Gamecube controllers weren't slight redesigns of the dualshock strikes me as delusional. Calling it a c-button doesn't make it any less of a second analog stick./duck

The point was: evolutionary improvements are what Sony has done, while Nintendo "pioneers"

Who did it 'better' is not what is being argued. The standard shape and controller design of MS/Sony is still so close to an NES/SNES controller it isn't funny. Add in the fact that the N64 was the first to have any analog thumb stick whatsoever, and that's where you get the dual shock.

Dual Shock = SNES + N64 + ergonomic evolution.

Actually, Nintendo didn't introduce analogue controls or vibrating controllers to gamers at all. The Vectrex console had an analogue stick and was around a good decade before Nintendo decided to 'innovate'. Likewise, Microsoft had Force Feedback Sidewinder controllers for PC's before Nintendo brought rumble-packs to a forgetful gaming audience.

You know how everyone remembers the line "Play it again, Sam" from Casablanca? And you know how, when you check the facts you realise that line doesn't actually exist in the movie - just in people's heads?

That's Nintendo, analogue and vibration. Everyone thinks Nintendo did it - but they didn't (heck, they weren't even the first to produce a true 3D platformer according to Next Generation).

Let's remember that before we start pointing fingers and accusing one company of copying another. OK?


As for the boomerang controller - I actually really liked it. The fact it was curved may have helped get around the issue of hand size. I believe small and large hands would have been able to reach all the controls with ease. Looking at how used to many people are at holding an arc between there hands (anyone here familiar with a steering wheel?) I don't think the idea is as radically alien to people as they immediately assume it is.

I would very much like to have held this controller for myself to see how it felt.

[CapnBob]

I'll just make a few small points here.

The handles on the PS1 controller made it a LLLLLLOOOOOOOTTTTTTT easier to use the shoulder buttons. Pick up a SNES controller now and you'll start crying. Kudos to Sony for the handles, which Nintendo then copied on the N64.

My left thumb hurts after extended use of either the PS2 analog stick or the Xbox/Gamecube D-pad. I gather this is common. Leaving the d-pad where it is makes the PS1/2/3 controller more ergonomic for 2D games... which I suppose only matters if you're using it on your PC with a SNES/GBA emulator. :p

Sorry, Sony was not first with the handles either. That honor goes, rather dubiously, to the Virtual Boy (http://www.vr32.de/hardware/verschiedenes/protos/shoshinkai/ces_proto/vb_controller.jpg).

[Dr Quincy]

http://www.megagames.com/screenshots/images/boomgerangdebunked.gif

[Zurik]

Asymetrical analog action is where it should be at. Part of the reason I seldom play on my PS2 is due to how uncomfortable the dual shock is. I get thumb and finger cramp after an hour. Oh, and add some analog triggers while you're at it.

Do you have long or short fingers? I'm guessing short, since mine are long and it feels really comfortable to me.

[Mason]

Best PS 3 controller joke I have heard so far, any where.
Well there's no competition, no one in this thread is even trying!

Regarding controllers...Sony doesn't really get credit much of anywhere. The wacky 'rang was them trying to innovate, and look how that went. And the PS2 controller is probably the worst of the generation. No analog triggers, segmented D-pad, mispositioned left analog stick, and the "analog" button which I don't think anyone's ever had a reason to use. Perfectly usable, all minor gripes, but there they are.

[fitbabits]

Do you have long or short fingers? I'm guessing short, since mine are long and it feels really comfortable to me.
Saying as how we're talking hands and not feet, I can safely say that my hands are a little on the wee side.

[Dirty Harry]

Well there's no competition, no one in this thread is even trying!

Regarding controllers...Sony doesn't really get credit much of anywhere. The wacky 'rang was them trying to innovate, and look how that went. And the PS2 controller is probably the worst of the generation. No analog triggers, segmented D-pad, mispositioned left analog stick, and the "analog" button which I don't think anyone's ever had a reason to use. Perfectly usable, all minor gripes, but there they are.
Your so full of shit mason, get your facts straight before you come back here is my suggestion.

Fyi ds2 indeed has analog buttons.

[Kamalot]

Who here expects a redesigned PS3 controller with gyroscopes in it?

[Heretic Machine]

Your so full of shit mason, get your facts straight before you come back here is my suggestion.

Fyi ds2 indeed has analog buttons.

...Not analog triggers, which is what he said. Unless you're referring to the Analog Button in the center of the controller, which is worthless, just like Mason said.

[Dirty Harry]

...Not analog triggers, which is what he said. Unless you're referring to the Analog Button in the center of the controller, which is worthless, just like Mason said.
The d-pad, the square, circle, triangle, X buttons aswell as the L1,2 R1,2 buttons are all pressure sensitive. The whole concept of a analog trigger is to provide a button that is PRESSURE sensitive. When you push a button harder on the ps2 it has the same affect as a analog trigger. I really dont see the debate here because there is none. The fact is, ps2 has analog buttons, the same as many new consoles. Personally i prefer the triggers from the dreamcast because they were alot bigger and had more push room so to speak. So it acted like a real "gas" pedal in games.

To clarify, Masons real arguement is that the ps2 Doesnt have a trigger, which i can agree in some ways bites the big one. None the less, i enjoy the ps2 controller more, i find the GC controller hurts my hands after 40 or so minutes of play and same with the S xbox controller. I havent had a chance to play with the 360 because i wont buy one untill the ps3 is out and a few games are worthwhile.

[SMES]

Actually, Nintendo didn't introduce analogue controls or vibrating controllers to gamers at all.

My analog point was about thumb sticks. Atari had analog joysticks too, on the 5200, but that's hardly the same as a thumbstick. It was pretty clear from the timing and critical acclaim of Mario 64 that it influenced the release of Sony's thumb sticks, even if Sony had already been planning them. Maybe the "me too" effect wasn't intentional, but it almost never is. It's not like companies enjoy being perceieved as copies.


As for the boomerang controller - I actually really liked it. I don't think the idea is as radically alien to people as they immediately assume it is.

I wouldn't be suprised if sony tries to keep the general aesthetic design of the boomerang. The sleeker curves seem to be the theme with both the 360 and the PS3. Maybe they're just re-tooling the proportions or ergonomics a bit?

[SMES]

The d-pad, the square, circle, triangle, X buttons aswell as the L1,2 R1,2 buttons are all pressure sensitive.

I didn't realize this for a long time, and since I'm such a limp wristed pansy, I remember getting frustrated that the effect of pressing the buttons seemed inconsistant.

After I realized that it mattered how hard you pushed in some games, I immediately had a negative opinion on how it is implimented. I have since then come to accept some of the advantages, but at the time I remember thinking that pressure sensitivity was a needless complication and inherantly inferior to trigger and other buttons with a clear range or sweep.

[TheEpicOfTyler]

I love the Dual-Shock 2 and I think it is superior to every other controller on the market. It fits me perfectly.

[Dirty Harry]

I didn't realize this for a long time, and since I'm such a limp wristed pansy, I remember getting frustrated that the effect of pressing the buttons seemed inconsistant.

After I realized that it mattered how hard you pushed in some games, I immediately had a negative opinion on how it is implimented. I have since then come to accept some of the advantages, but at the time I remember thinking that pressure sensitivity was a needless complication and inherantly inferior to trigger and other buttons with a clear range or sweep.
personally i find the only games that are worthwhile with this feature are sports game and racing games. I want to see more advancement on pressure sensitive controlls for games. Like for example the lock picking in splinter cell, maybe it should be pressuresensitive and the such.

All im saying is its a feature that is so underused its a shame, it could make games all that more interesting. Gta Sa is an example of an awesome implimentation, with running if you hit the button lightly and fast you will run but you pound the button you will really book it.

[vladthedog]

I don't care what anyone says. the original xbox control is the best controller i've ever used. I still have one (even though neither my roommate or me have an xbox anymore) that I use on my PC and will never get rid of :) Any other control (including the dual shock) start cramping up my hand after a few hours, wheras I can game all night w/ the original xbox and not have any problems :)

[The Iron Weasel]

I'm all about the 360 controller from what I've used of it, its just so....perfect! The PS3 controller maybe ugly and I can make fun of that, but if its comfortable then I don't really care.

[Doctor Setebos]

Oh, I have an idea! Maybe instead of everyone having a pissing contest and every controller thread devolving into "MINE is the best!" "NO! MINE is the best!" "Nintendo invented it!" "NO! It was around longer than that!" How about we all understand the concept that there are many differing opinions on the perfect controller design, and no one will ever agree on the best one.

It's just like movies and games and books and everything else that people have opinions on. Not everyone will agree on what the best solution is, but we all have our own personal favorites.

The end.

[Wander]

Oh, I have an idea! Maybe instead of everyone having a pissing contest and every controller thread devolving into "MINE is the best!" "NO! MINE is the best!" "Nintendo invented it!" "NO! It was around longer than that!" How about we all understand the concept that there are many differing opinions on the perfect controller design, and no one will ever agree on the best one.

It's just like movies and games and books and everything else that people have opinions on. Not everyone will agree on what the best solution is, but we all have our own personal favorites.

The end.
I still say OJ had nothing to do with the murder.

[bone_matrix]

Actually, Nintendo didn't introduce analogue controls or vibrating controllers to gamers at all. The Vectrex console had an analogue stick and was around a good decade before Nintendo decided to 'innovate'. Likewise, Microsoft had Force Feedback Sidewinder controllers for PC's before Nintendo brought rumble-packs to a forgetful gaming audience.

You know how everyone remembers the line "Play it again, Sam" from Casablanca? And you know how, when you check the facts you realise that line doesn't actually exist in the movie - just in people's heads?

That's Nintendo, analogue and vibration. Everyone thinks Nintendo did it - but they didn't (heck, they weren't even the first to produce a true 3D platformer according to Next Generation).

Let's remember that before we start pointing fingers and accusing one company of copying another. OK?

I realize (and you probably weren't posting that towards me, but I feel that I need to defend) that Nintendo didn't invent rumble or analogue, but they put it out in the mainstream. Would they have come at a later time? Probably, but without Nintendo, I doubt it would have happened so soon. Plus, it helps that they did it pretty damn well.

Nintendo also didn't invent touch screen gaming, but I would wager that many people here at EvAv would agree that they did it right.

One last thing: I tend to view Nintendo in sort of the same way I view Apple. Apple didn't invent MP3 players, but for most people, they did it right and made them more mainstream than before.

[Kamalot]

Sony copied the analog stick from the N64 controller. How much longer before they copy the gyroscopes from the Revolution? Is that what this redesign is for?

[GWhite]

I don't care what anyone says. the original xbox control is the best controller i've ever used. I still have one (even though neither my roommate or me have an xbox anymore) that I use on my PC and will never get rid of :) Any other control (including the dual shock) start cramping up my hand after a few hours, wheras I can game all night w/ the original xbox and not have any problems :)

I agree, but that may also have something to do with expectations. I went from the Dreamcast (I need to go buy one again) to the XBox and only later bought a PS2. Of course the fact that I have really large hands may have something to do with it as well.

[Kelegacy]

Sony copied the analog stick from the N64 controller. How much longer before they copy the gyroscopes from the Revolution? Is that what this redesign is for?

And Microsoft used the Dual Shock as a template for their S overhaul. Everyone borrows and steals.

Personally, I found the Dual Shock controllers excellent. The sticks don't really bother me, the button layout is goddamn superb (I don't miss analog triggers when playing games where a ton of tapping is required, like pedaling your bike in GTA:SA, and on the S controller during Indigo Prophecy alternating L/R triggers was actually painful), and I find it's comfortable...but could be marginally bigger. That is all. I liked the SNES controller, but the Playstation took that design and made one of the better console input devices ever, IMO. The Dual Shock improved on that, but they do need an overhaul. Releasing the DS3 with a 3 on it is not enough. The MS controller has evolved into something excellent, the Sony controller needs to do the same.

And Nintendo controllers have always been awkward at times, at least starting with the 64. I was playing some Mario Kart: DD tonight with some friends and that goddamn Z button is a pain in the ass. The others can be troubling at times as well. Controller comfort is something Nintendo doesn't exactly do well...as I've found once again with my DS.

[imagecreature]

"One last thing: I tend to view Nintendo in sort of the same way I view Apple. Apple didn't invent MP3 players, but for most people, they did it right and made them more mainstream than before."

I like this line of thought.

...and didn't the PS1 with added later analogue come out before the N64?

[TrackZero]

I hope this is true. The idea that Sony would make such a drastic move away from the dualshock controller design that has been so closely emulated by MS and Nintendo always struck me as odd.

Or considering the dual shock is *gasp* a SNES controller with two analog sticks (which were stolen from the N64 controller). I wouldn't be so quick to say who emulates who.

If anything the PS3 controller is just further proof that when it came to Sony making their own controller from scratch, they completely botched it. It's just about as practical as the PSPs "nub" and craptastic d-pad.

[TrackZero]

...and didn't the PS1 with added later analogue come out before the N64?

No. It did not.

[imagecreature]

I might have replied to fast. Orginal PS not the PS1 ( Which is the mini version)?

[TrackZero]

I might have replied to fast. Orginal PS not the PS1 ( Which is the mini version)?

Once again, no, it did not. The PS1 (Playstation, Original, I couldn't give two shits about the "mini") later had their "dual shock" after the N64's analog had already been released.

Edit: Check any joystick site to see how things evolved over the years. I had a good one bookmarked somewhere, but I can't find it, so here's the first one I see on google:

http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/gpad.htm

Edit Edit: I did the extra double-checking, the N64 controller was released Sept 29, 1996 in Japan (technically the controller was shown off long before that as well) and March 1, 1997 in North America, the dual-shock controller for the PS1 was released in late 1997 in Japan, early 1998 in North America.

[TrackZero]

personally i find the only games that are worthwhile with this feature are sports game and racing games. I want to see more advancement on pressure sensitive controlls for games. Like for example the lock picking in splinter cell, maybe it should be pressuresensitive and the such.

All im saying is its a feature that is so underused its a shame, it could make games all that more interesting. Gta Sa is an example of an awesome implimentation, with running if you hit the button lightly and fast you will run but you pound the button you will really book it.

I know in Halo your rate of fire was sensitive to the trigger.

Yeah, I'd like to see it used more across the board though, definitely.

[abso]

I wouldn't touch a damn thing with the existing controller. It is great as is. Why mess with what already works?

[Mason]

The d-pad, the square, circle, triangle, X buttons aswell as the L1,2 R1,2 buttons are all pressure sensitive. The whole concept of a analog trigger is to provide a button that is PRESSURE sensitive. When you push a button harder on the ps2 it has the same affect as a analog trigger. I really dont see the debate here because there is none. The fact is, ps2 has analog buttons, the same as many new consoles. Personally i prefer the triggers from the dreamcast because they were alot bigger and had more push room so to speak. So it acted like a real "gas" pedal in games.

To clarify, Masons real arguement is that the ps2 Doesnt have a trigger, which i can agree in some ways bites the big one. None the less, i enjoy the ps2 controller more, i find the GC controller hurts my hands after 40 or so minutes of play and same with the S xbox controller. I havent had a chance to play with the 360 because i wont buy one untill the ps3 is out and a few games are worthwhile.
So you agreed with everything I said, but you still called me full of shit for saying it? You're good at making sense and friends.

[Deathbane27]

Sorry, Sony was not first with the handles either. That honor goes, rather dubiously, to the Virtual Boy (http://www.vr32.de/hardware/verschiedenes/protos/shoshinkai/ces_proto/vb_controller.jpg).

I stand corrected.

Curious. Did the Virtual Boy controller have shoulder buttons?

[ElectricMonk]

The most comfortable controller design to me was the sega dreamcast one, which if I recall, was based on a sega saturn controller.

the dualshock was one of the worst. pretty much impossible to reach all of the buttons at the same time.

[Dr Quincy]

I wouldn't touch a damn thing with the existing controller. It is great as is. Why mess with what already works?

Because there are very well educated and well paid research and development teams who've put much more thought into this than some random in a games forum and know better. Rawr!

[Goronmon]

I always thought the PS2 controllers were my least favorite. They are just a bit too small for my hands, the shape just doesn't feel right, the analog sticks were positioned wierd and the triggers never felt right even after long play sessions.

Hell, I'll take the "batarang" style controller over the PS2 one as long as its more comfortable...

[Player 1]

..but without Nintendo, I doubt it would have happened so soon. Plus, it helps that they did it pretty damn well.

Nintendo also didn't invent touch screen gaming, but I would wager that many people here at EvAv would agree that they did it right.

One last thing: I tend to view Nintendo in sort of the same way I view Apple. Apple didn't invent MP3 players, but for most people, they did it right and made them more mainstream than before.

So, the tone I get from this post (and others that follow it) is

1) Copying is bad
2) Unless Nintendo copy, then it's ok
3) It's also ok to copy if you make it mainstream
4) It's ok to ignore point no.3 if it's Sony that made it mainstream.

Example of point 4:

I don't see anybody here bringing Nintendo to task over the sudden appearance of a 2nd analogue stick on their controllers years after Sony introduced the idea.

All I see is constant excuses being made for Nintendo and constant dismissals being made of Sony. I see hardly any objectivity or willingness to actually stick to the facts of the situation.

I mean, look at the link (http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/gpad.htm) that TrackZero supplied. Look at that Atari 7800 joypad. That sure looks like the classic 'Nintendo' D-pad plus 2 buttons control that they cunningly patented. Except it seems abundantly clear that Atari came up with the design first but Nintendo are happy to take the credit for 'inventing' it.

This, and other reasons, are why I generally don't trust Nintendo and their hallowed 'innovation masters' status. Nearly every time I dig for some facts, I find that Nintendo aren't as magically gifted as so many people assume them to be.

It doesn't make me a Nintendo hater, just a fan of the truth.

[Bydo_Empire]

The ps2 controller isn't my favorite, but the only thing that really bugs me is that my thumbs slip off the analog sticks too easily. MS really nailed their analog sticks - non-slip rubber with an indentation for your thumb. As for the ps3 controller, the boomerang sure *looked* uncomfortable, but it's hard to say without actually holding it to get a feel for the size, weight, and button/stick placement. If it offered tilt-sensing it might have made a nice half-steering wheel.

[Bydo_Empire]

link (http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/gpad.htm) that TrackZero supplied. Look at that Atari 7800 joypad.
Not that it matters, but was that ever released in the states? I've never seen one before.

[TrackZero]

I don't see anybody here bringing Nintendo to task over the sudden appearance of a 2nd analogue stick on their controllers years after Sony introduced the idea.

What 2nd analog stick are you refering to? The gamecube only has ONE, just like the N64. Fuck man, at least get simple facts straight.

[Montgomery_Python]

Madcatz!!!!

[Player 1]

What 2nd analog stick are you refering to? The gamecube only has ONE, just like the N64. Fuck man, at least get simple facts straight.

You know, calling a bright yellow analogue stick "C" doesn't make it any less of an analogue stick.

Unless, of course, you want to pretend that it isn't one.

Fuck man, at least get simple facts straight.

Quite.:rolleyes:

[Kamalot]

Here it is, plain and simple.

The Xbox 360 controller and the Wavebird were designed with the end-user and the games in mind. The left analog stick was placed in the primary left-thumb position because that's the control used most often. That explains why the action face buttons are placed in the right-thumb primary position. Triggers are analog and give resistance for user feedback so people can tell how far the trigger has traveled, much the same way a gas pedal travels to the floor of the car.

The Playstation controllers are designed to look nice. Sony does not want to 'mess up' the symmetrical nature of the design. This is a clear case of form over function, of design taking the front seat while the needs of users and games take a back seat to looks.

Everyone has preferences. Sadly, these preferences are often not based on usability but because of what people have 'learned' to like. Humans are very adaptable. If you've already learned and adapted to a shitty designed controller, it may feel comfortable to you but that does not make the design of the controller superior.

[imagecreature]

I mean, look at the link (http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/gpad.htm) that TrackZero supplied. Look at that Atari 7800 joypad. That sure looks like the classic 'Nintendo' D-pad plus 2 buttons control that they cunningly patented. Except it seems abundantly clear that Atari came up with the design first but Nintendo are happy to take the credit for 'inventing' it.

I forgot about the "joypad". Did you ever use the original joystick for the 7800 link (http://www.atari7800.com/catalogue/pg4.htm)? Twisted for steering and it read how far from the 0,0 position the stick had been push.

The 2600 joystick was really just four directional buttons with a fifth fire button.

[CapnBob]

I mean, look at the link (http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/gpad.htm) that TrackZero supplied. Look at that Atari 7800 joypad. That sure looks like the classic 'Nintendo' D-pad plus 2 buttons control that they cunningly patented. Except it seems abundantly clear that Atari came up with the design first but Nintendo are happy to take the credit for 'inventing' it.

Sorry, but you are entirely full of shit. Nintendo's D-pad was created for the Game And Watch toys, which pre-dates the 7800 by at least 4 years.

[SMES]

Yes, Sony's dual sticks were a good idea. One thing Sony did very well was how they decided to multiply things. Two shoulder buttons not good enough? Tack on a couple more. One thumbstick for the N64, eh? Well, that's cool cause we got TWO, SUCKA!

Despite my sarcasam, I really do think this is important. Sony understood that there was not neccisarilly some artificial limit to the number of buttons you could place on a controller. The N64 tried to add more buttons, while also holding onto their idea of 'simplicity' by only giving the player access to 2/3 of them at any given time. But the three-pronged controller was an abomination of functional design as a result. They should have made it two-pronged and left off the d-pad entirely, since no one I knew ever used the 64 D-pad. Hard for them to give up their D-pad herritage, though, as is evidenced by the Rev controller.

Also, even though the GameCube controller indicated that they realized Sony's way was better, the inclusion of the GC's crappy Z button shows that they were still too stubborn to completely copy Sony with four shoulder buttons.

The 360 controller ignores all of these rivalries in design and has a controller that does the best of all previous controllers, combined. It's true that some times the four regular shoulder buttons of Sony are better than two triggers that MS has. But for all intents and purposes, the 360 has got it right in my opinion.

However, like I said before, saying that because Nintendo was not the first company to think that it would be good to have four directions to go, or that they were not the first company to think analog was a good idea- misses the point. Nintendo is good at thinking of new ways to combine stuff that seems like gimmicks with tried and true game input methods (D-Pad, usually). The DS and the Revolution are the most recent examples, but even the Virtual Boy and Game Boy are included.

The Revolution has the potential to be VERY gimmicky. And it is very unlikely to start any real gaming revolution, at least not one larger than the NES already started. But it might be fun, and to say otherwise is to be more than a troll, it's to be a negative, pessimistic person. I prefer to be optimistic.

[TrackZero]

You know, calling a bright yellow analogue stick "C" doesn't make it any less of an analogue stick.

Unless, of course, you want to pretend that it isn't one.

Quite.:rolleyes:

Uh, it isn't one....are you crazy? I can't think of a single game that has ever shown the yellow C stick to be anything but digital.

[Dark Hamlet]

Dual Shock 2 controller is regarded in the video game community as one of the best console controller designs

Obviously, just from reading this thread, there is not a general concensus by the "gaming community" that the DS2 is one of the best consle controllers (personally, it is my least favorite of its generation). This article is full of shit. Not just because of this, but also because they assume the PS3 controller is being redesigned just because it is not being displayed with the console itself. How did they come up with that conclusion? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Sony announce that the 'rang was the final design for the controller less than two months ago? Why would they go and change it after it was already finalized?

Personally, I welcome the boomerang design. Anything that differs from the DS2 is probably a step forward :D

[AbinSur]

I was at CES today, and I walked through Sony's huge "booth" area. The glass case containing the PS3 DID have the batarang controller in it. It also had black, grey, and white versions of the PS3.

I can't say whether the controller was in the glass case when the article was written, but it is definitely in there now. If I pass by it tomorrow, I'll try to take a picture.

[Kamalot]

Uh, it isn't one....are you crazy? I can't think of a single game that has ever shown the yellow C stick to be anything but digital.
The C stick on the GameCube is an analog stick. Many games utilize it as another D-Pad to select items, but play games like Pikmin or TimeSplitters to see the C stick used in all its analog glory.

Shoot, Even Luigis Mansion made great use of the analog stick. The mechanics used to vaccum up ghosts was immensely fun.

[TrackZero]

The C stick on the GameCube is an analog stick. Many games utilize it as another D-Pad to select items, but play games like Pikmin or TimeSplitters to see the C stick used in all its analog glory.

Shoot, Even Luigis Mansion made great use of the analog stick. The mechanics used to vaccum up ghosts was immensely fun.

Hrm. Of those titles I only have Pikmin, I'll have to try this when I get home. But I don't recall it acting in any fashion other than digital.

Edit: Well shit, looks like I have to admit I'm wrong and Player 1 is right. FUCK, I really don't like having to do that.

http://www.gc-linux.org/docs/yagcd/chap9.html

Though for all intents and purposes, the C-stick is used in most games as if it was digital (I know I've had conversations with friends before over why they didn't just bother to keep the 4 C buttons from the N64 controller).

Also, to use Player 1's original comment:

"I don't see anybody here bringing Nintendo to task over the sudden appearance of a 2nd analogue stick on their controllers years after Sony introduced the idea."

The gamecubes C-stick is hardly even a comparison to Sony's implementation, it's not used in gameplay at all to the same effect. Otherwise Metroid Prime wouldn't have the god-awful controls it does (I love that game, but goddamn I wish it used a second analog stick so I could strafe and aim at the same time).

Now if MS is brought up for it's 2nd analog stick, I'd definitely agree, but it just used what works and moved on (considering the original Xbox controller is essentially a Dreamcast one).

[Player 1]

Sorry, but you are entirely full of shit. Nintendo's D-pad was created for the Game And Watch toys, which pre-dates the 7800 by at least 4 years.

OK, throw the insults (what a surprise).

Care to tackle the analogue and vibration 'innovations' that Nintendo claim were theirs?

Or is that full of shit too?

And, TrackZero, I love the way you have to admit Nintendo copied Sony and then totally downplay it because YOU haven't seen it exploited much - then turn the spotlight onto MS. That's just beautiful.

So many people willing to lay down their credibility and take a bullet for Nintendo. It's such a waste.

[TrackZero]

OK, throw the insults (what a surprise).

Care to tackle the analogue and vibration 'innovations' that Nintendo claim were theirs?

Or is that full of shit too?

And, TrackZero, I love the way you have to admit Nintendo copied Sony and then totally downplay it because YOU haven't seen it exploited much - then turn the spotlight onto MS. That's just beautiful.

So many people willing to lay down their credibility and take a bullet for Nintendo. It's such a waste.

It should be downplayed. I can't believe you'd consider Sony some leader of the market for *gasp* adding a second analog stick. That's an obvious evolution of the controller that would have happened had Sony not did it first (who was only forced to do so to compete with the N64 and the Saturn (who ALSO copied it from Nintendo) which both already had single analog sticks). Hell, while you're at it, why don't you thank Sega for "innovating" that third button the Genesis controller? Or maybe the big N for putting four buttons on the SNES controller! What amazing additions!

Since Nintendo did bring something new to the fold though, you need to drag it through the mud claiming the Vectrex had it first. Did you even own one of those? Because I did, and I'll tell you their implementation of analog controls left a lot to be desired. You could not use it like analog sticks today, your thumb would be shredded if you tried to put it on top:

http://chokocat.chez-alice.fr/s_v_controller.jpg

The fact of the matter is that almost all of the major controller innovations have come from Nintendo. A quick look at all the controllers down the years makes this obvious:

http://www.axess.com/twilight/console/

So let's see what Nintendo has brought into the mainstream for controllers:

- D-pad
- Shoulder Buttons
- Rumble (yes, PC controllers were doing it before this, but noone else on the consoles were)
- Analog Stick (Go actually try the Vectrex. The joystick was so bloody small you'd need tweezers to get any analog sensitivity out of it.)
- Controller expansion slots.
- And even the "Start" and "Select" (or equiv.) buttons, yes, they did it first.

One of the only other significant additions was the Dreamcast "triggers" instead of shoulder buttons, big props to Sega for that one.

So no, I'm not too impressed with the addition of a second analog stick. Nor would I call anyone a copycat for following that obvious change.

I wish you wouldn't troll like this, sidelining the entire discussion of the redesign of the PS3 contoller to instead "bringing Nintendo to task over the sudden appearance of a 2nd analogue stick on their controllers years after Sony introduced the idea".

And finally, to respond to your one comment:

"I mean, look at the link that TrackZero supplied. Look at that Atari 7800 joypad. That sure looks like the classic 'Nintendo' D-pad plus 2 buttons control that they cunningly patented. Except it seems abundantly clear that Atari came up with the design first but Nintendo are happy to take the credit for 'inventing' it."

Yes, well, anyone wanting to spend a whole two minutes doing research can find out that the NES controller came out on July 15, 1983, while the Atari 7800 came out in June 1984. So Atari ripped off Nintendo. Yay. Now let's stop getting sidetracked. PS3 controller redesign. Good thing? Bad thing? I don't know. I haven't held one. Hopefully either way it'll turn out for the best though. It's good to know Sony is listening to consumer feedback on that design.

[Player 1]

It should be downplayed. I can't believe you'd consider Sony some leader of the market for *gasp* adding a second analog stick.

No, you want it downplayed because it shatters your image of a perfect Nintendo. *any* addition to a controller's design is an evolution. Both Nintendo's AND Sony's. But you'd rather hail any effort by Nintendo as earth-shatteringly important and any effort by Sony as 'meh'. You're so patently biased in favour of one and against the other it colours everything you say. You have no credibility in this debate whatsoever - you've proved yourself to be factually incorrect and overly biased in favour of one and against another.

Since Nintendo did bring something new to the fold though, you need to drag it through the mud claiming the Vectrex had it first. Did you even own one of those? Because I did, and I'll tell you their implementation of analog controls left a lot to be desired.

Whatever way you wish to paint it, the fact remains, Nintendo did not introduce analogue control to gamers (Not only Vectrex but dozens upon dozens of early PC joysticks were analogue controllers). Oh, Nintendo may have made it their centerpiece (let's not forget they weren't first out the door with a 3D-ready console) but they sure as hell didn't invent it.

Nintendo copied it, plain and simple - and THAT'S the point that's being made.

You're demonstrating the 4 points of copying I made in an earlier post to a tee. Once again, showing personal bias over historical fact.


The fact of the matter is that almost all of the major controller innovations have come from Nintendo.

Utter bullshit. You want to believe this, but it's simply not true. When Nintendo do it, they make a huge song and dance about it (NONE of the technology in the Revolution controller is invented by Nintendo, it's all in existence today - Nintendo are copying what's already there and applying it for their means). Easily led, biased gamers fall for the hype that Nintendo spout and believe them to be the champions of innovation. This is Nintendo's smartest move - convincing people they did it first.

And you're the mug that'll do anything you can (like sacrifcing your own credibility) for them.

I'm amused, but unimpressed.


I wish you wouldn't troll like this, sidelining the entire discussion of the redesign of the PS3 contoller

I'm not trolling - another post started ranting on about how Sony steal from Nintendo. I've merely demonstrated that Nintendo steal from others and that Sony have also added to control standards over the years. Points raised by OTHERS but addressed by me. We are still on the topic of Sony and still on the topic of controllers (you don't seem to mind people praising Nintendo over Sony in this topic - even though, by your standards, introducing Nintendo to the topic must be trolling. You only regard it as off-topic or trolling if you happen to disagree with it. Bias, once again.)

I haven't called anyone names, I've taken points raised by OTHERS and given full, detailed statements to demonstrate why I believe they're wrong.

That isn't trolling, that's debating. If you're not capable of handling a detailed debate or are sore about being proved wrong then please don't try to bring things down to a level where you accuse others of going off topic or calling them trolls.

Grow the hell up.

[TrackZero]

No, you want it downplayed because it shatters your image of a perfect Nintendo. *any* addition to a controller's design is an evolution. Both Nintendo's AND Sony's. But you'd rather hail any effort by Nintendo as earth-shatteringly important and any effort by Sony as 'meh'. You're so patently biased in favour of one and against the other it colours everything you say. You have no credibility in this debate whatsoever - you've proved yourself to be factually incorrect and overly biased in favour of one and against another.

Bra-fucking-o. As if your comment about the Atari 7800 controller wasn't just as unfactual as my mistake about the Gamecube controller. That eliminates your comments as biased as well then. You're more than willing to jump at straws to make a point. I've admitted my mistake and moved on from it.


Whatever way you wish to paint it, the fact remains, Nintendo did not introduce analogue control to gamers (Not only Vectrex but dozens upon dozens of early PC joysticks were analogue controllers). Oh, Nintendo may have made it their centerpiece (let's not forget they weren't first out the door with a 3D-ready console) but they sure as hell didn't invent it.


What's that? Switching the topic now about who made the first 3D console? What in the world does that have to do with the PS3 controller redesign? NOTHING. Get off your Nintendo bashing and get back on thread.




Utter bullshit. You want to believe this, but it's simply not true. When Nintendo do it, they make a huge song and dance about it (NONE of the technology in the Revolution controller is invented by Nintendo, it's all in existence today - Nintendo are copying what's already there and applying it for their means). Easily led, biased gamers fall for the hype that Nintendo spout and believe them to be the champions of innovation. This is Nintendo's smartest move - convincing people they did it first.


Oh, priceless. Re-read my posts Player 1. I haven't even brought up the Revolution, at all. Nor would I, because that isn't what this thread was about. The only reason the N64 was brought up is because someone thought the dual shock controller introduced Analog, which, any way you cut it was wrong, I corrected him. So drop the Nintendo thing, it's not the topic here, no matter how much you wish it was. As to me being some easily led pawn, I've owned almost every console since 1983 and loved them all. Don't mistake my comments that yes, Nintendo did do some major things in this industry that are credited to them, does not mean I'm biased. My recognition of controller advancements by Nintendo have absolutely nothing to do with their horrible development strategies concerning 3rd party developers, nor their feet dragging regarding their media formats, or constant cash cowing on peripheral additions for every bloody console that they make which go unsupported. They're not some perfect company. But they're the guys who are still in this industry after over 20 years of duking it out and they do know how to do certain things right. So I give some props where they're due.


And you're the mug that'll do anything you can (like sacrifcing your own credibility) for them.

I'm amused, but unimpressed.


My credibility is just fine, thanks. I'm not worried that down the road, people will be "oh, you can't trust him, the thought the C-stick was digital. tch tch tch.". What stupidity is that? Nor was I aware I'm supposed to be impressing you somehow, I'm trying to get you back on to the thread you seem wildly interested in ignoring.


I'm not trolling - another post started ranting on about how Sony steal from Nintendo. I've merely demonstrated that Nintendo steal from others and that Sony have also added to control standards over the years. Points raised by OTHERS but addressed by me. We are still on the topic of Sony and still on the topic of controllers (you don't seem to mind people praising Nintendo over Sony in this topic - even though, by your standards, introducing Nintendo to the topic must be trolling. You only regard it as off-topic or trolling if you happen to disagree with it. Bias, once again.)


No, trolling is when you come in and cherry pick a fight for something that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is exactly what you did.


I haven't called anyone names, I've taken points raised by OTHERS and given full, detailed statements to demonstrate why I believe they're wrong.

That isn't trolling, that's debating. If you're not capable of handling a detailed debate or are sore about being proved wrong then please don't try to bring things down to a level where you accuse others of going off topic or calling them trolls.

Grow the hell up.

Oh I know, how dare I make comments in response to you. I'm really having to bring you down to my level on this. ;) You forget so quickly that while you were only giving "points raised by OTHERS and given full, detailed statements to demonstrate why I believe they're wrong.", you then, once again said:

"I don't see anybody here bringing Nintendo to task over the sudden appearance of a 2nd analogue stick on their controllers years after Sony introduced the idea."

Which was not in response to anyone, that's a direct comment on your part to ask a question that has nothing to do with the PS3 controller.

In response to name calling, all I've said was:

"Fuck man"
"are you crazy?"
"Well shit"
"FUCK"

Now, I did say "I wish you wouldn't troll like this", which is, as I just proved above, is true. But I didn't call you a troll, I said you were trolling (which just about anyone could do).

So once again, all things being equal in this, let's get back on thread. I really don't give two shits about if you meant something, or if you think I meant something else. Jesus, are you going to even make a comment about this topic at all man? PS3 controller redesign, what are your thoughts?

[SMES]

I haven't called anyone names I've taken points raised by OTHERS and given full, detailed statements to demonstrate why I believe they're wrong.

At least he acknowledged that he was wrong about the C-Stick being digital. You completely ignored being wrong about the 7800 coming before the Famicom.

PS- What's with all the anger? Full, detailed statements and a big vocabulary doesn't seem to do much for your temper. Or should I say, mood? Disposition? Spirit? Frame of mind? Attitude?

[Player 1]

At least he acknowledged that he was wrong about the C-Stick being digital. You completely ignored being wrong about the 7800 coming before the Famicom.

Perhaps that's because he's done everything he can to ignore the three other 'Nintendo copy too!' points I made which remain unchallenged. Or, when he's had to admit to it he then plays it all down as "well, it's ok because Nintendo did good with it / I didn't notice it in games I played".

Allow me quote myself:

So, the tone I get from this post (and others that follow it) is

1) Copying is bad
2) Unless Nintendo copy, then it's ok
3) It's also ok to copy if you make it mainstream
4) It's ok to ignore point no.3 if it's Sony that made it mainstream.

Which sums up TrackZero's contribution to this topic perfectly.

But, let's ignore all that eh? Let's just harp on about why, when others raise the issue of copying, that it's only when I mention it that it becomes off-topic?

And that, when, on that same subject of one company copying another, it's only when I continue to emphasize my stance on Nintendo's copying antics (analogue control, dual analogue, vibration and a 3-D ready console) that it all suddenly become irrelevent and off topic?

How strange it is that so many of you are only happy to yell "copycat!" when it's about someone copying beloved, perfect Nintendo. How strange that the instant the tables are turned so much effort is made to shut me up and prove me wrong?

Before you continue to sideline this topic further by questioning my behaviour (I notice TrackZero didn't feel the need to comment on that particular brand of sidelining, I wonder why?) please address the points I made earlier in this topic. That'd be great. Thanks.

PS- What's with all the anger?
Deluded fanboys piss me off.

[SMES]

How strange that the instant the tables are turned so much effort is made to shut me up and prove me wrong?

The fact that you tend to be the loudest anti-Nintendo viewpoint in any thread might give you the impression that people are standing up for Nintendo when they argue with you, but you may want to consider that it has something to do with the way you treat people.

please address the points I made earlier in this topic. That'd be great. Thanks.

Like you have pointed out in the past, why respond when I agree with something? I mostly agree with your points (not your vitriol, though).


(I notice TrackZero didn't feel the need to comment on that particular brand of sidelining, I wonder why?)

I was trying to point out that he admitted that he was wrong, and I didn't see that he had already done it himself.


As if your comment about the Atari 7800 controller wasn't just as unfactual as my mistake about the Gamecube controller. That eliminates your comments as biased as well then.

[Player 1]

OK, so let's just recap:

In a topic where COPYING has become a major part of the conversation (before I entered it) we have established:

TrackZero has shown Nintendo to have the D-pad control in evidence prior to Atari

Player 1 has shown Nintendo to have taken the concept of analogue control, vibration and dual analogue from other, non Nintendo, game devices. And I am happy to show more instances of Nintendo copying if need be.

So, let's stop pretending that Nintendo don't plagarise as much as any other company (or even moreso) and let's not exclusively focus on one point in favour of Nintendo at the expense of the many points against them.

I'm not anti-Nintendo, but I see them stealing credit from the true innovators and being championed as innovators when they blatently aren't. I then see people making excuses for Nintendo copying by saying "Ah, but they made it mainstream!". This is a serious warping of facts to suit what the outspoken majority like to hear. The outspoken majority, unfortunately, is wrong.

Copying is copying. Whoever does it.

[TrackZero]

Perhaps that's because he's done everything he can to ignore the three other 'Nintendo copy too!' points I made which remain unchallenged. Or, when he's had to admit to it he then plays it all down as "well, it's ok because Nintendo did good with it / I didn't notice it in games I played".

Let me quote myself:

"So, the tone I get from this post (and others that follow it) is

1) Copying is bad
2) Unless Nintendo copy, then it's ok
3) It's also ok to copy if you make it mainstream
4) It's ok to ignore point no.3 if it's Sony that made it mainstream."

1) I never said this.
2) I never said this.
3) I never said this.
4) I never said this.

The only thing I can even think you're refering to was my comment to SharpMonkey who was claiming MS and Nintendo copied the dual shock controller, to which I said:


Or considering the dual shock is *gasp* a SNES controller with two analog sticks (which were stolen from the N64 controller). I wouldn't be so quick to say who emulates who.

Which is me pointing out, everybody copies successful designs. SharpMonkey had just made comment about Xbox and GC copying the Dual Shock design, so I was letting him know everyone stole from someplace before it. Prehaps the word "stolen" was a little harsh sounding, but it's the same thing as copying. But this was just as much a correction for the Xbox as the Gamecube. I never implied that doing so was a bad thing, just that everyone does it.

Which is why I never replied to those points, they weren't addressing me (unless you were talking to another, imaginary TrackZero). My only comments in this thread was a correction someone had regarding who did something first with the analog sticks (which again, either way was wrong), that copying is the same thing everyone does, and that the PS3 controller redesign is probably a good thing. So I don't know what else you'd be refering to.

Copying controller features is common sense and should definitely be done. That being said, it doesn't detract from anyone who implemented said feature first, they should get mention for doing so. But it's not a hate-on.


Which sums up TrackZero's contribution to this topic perfectly.

Uh, no, it didn't, at all. If you've got something personal against me, then just say it, but don't make up responses to be about things I haven't said and then stereotype me into some imaginary Nintendo fanboy.

But, let's ignore all that eh? Let's just harp on about why, when others raise the issue of copying, that it's only when I mention it that it becomes off-topic?

Uh, because the question of copying that was a misconception had been addressed, and laid to rest. Then you began demanding Nintendo be "brought to task". That's when it started going back off-topic, but to an even further extreme.


And that, when, on that same subject of one company copying another, it's only when I continue to emphasize my stance on Nintendo's copying antics (analogue control, dual analogue, vibration and a 3-D ready console) that it all suddenly become irrelevent and off topic?

You took things that were already gone offtopic regarding evolutionary controller design and essentially were wrapped up and pushed it further and further away from the thread. Especially when you went into the whole 3-D console thing, that's just out to lunch to even be anything to do with a PS3 controller redesign.


How strange it is that so many of you are only happy to yell "copycat!" when it's about someone copying beloved, perfect Nintendo. How strange that the instant the tables are turned so much effort is made to shut me up and prove me wrong?


Everyone copies, that's not an issue. But you seem to want to make a case here that anyone who even gives Nintendo it's due for it's controller additions over the years are completely biased and unable to appreciate any other systems, which isn't the case at all. The Sony Dual Shock controller is a great design, as most people will agree. However, it's not like Sony designed it from the ground up without having to compete with any other controller designs up to that point. That's just common sense. So correcting someone that Sony did add the Analog controls in because it's competitors already had is merely stating the obvious, not some fanboy attack on Sony. Calm the fuck down.

As for "beloved, perfect Nintendo", at this point I should just stop even replying to you. That isn't how I view Nintendo and you're continuing to act as if we're all in some secret cabal to give Miyamoto handjobs or something.


Before you continue to sideline this topic further by questioning my behaviour (I notice TrackZero didn't feel the need to comment on that particular brand of sidelining, I wonder why?) please address the points I made earlier in this topic. That'd be great. Thanks.


What particlar brand of sidelining? Your 1-4 points I just answered that never had anything to do with me? Sure, I did that.


Deluded fanboys piss me off.

No fucking shit, they do to me too! You need to take a serious chill pill man. Re-read my comments in this thread. I've said that I think Sony's doing a great thing by taking a step back and do some re-analysis of their controller. I've also pointed out many of the dumbass shit that Nintendo's been doing over the years. How am I being a fanboy? Do you want me to start calling Nintendo a shit company and light my Gamecube on fire? Or how about my PS2, Xbox and Dreamcast? Fuck, seriously, what do you want to see from me?

All I said was Nintendo brought some major controller innovations into the mainstream, and they have. That's all. Sheesh.

And thanks for not replying to me directly, that was classy.

[Player 1]

Track_Zero, I didn't reply to you because I don't regard your input into this topic as credible. I felt I made that perfectly clear.

[TrackZero]

Track_Zero, I didn't reply to you because I don't regard your input into this topic as credible. I felt I made that perfectly clear.

Nice way to dodge everything I just said back. Thanks man, you're a real winner.

[TrackZero]

OK, so let's just recap:

In a topic where COPYING has become a major part of the conversation (before I entered it) we have established:

TrackZero has shown Nintendo to have the D-pad control in evidence prior to Atari

Player 1 has shown Nintendo to have taken the concept of analogue control, vibration and dual analogue from other, non Nintendo, game devices. And I am happy to show more instances of Nintendo copying if need be.

So, let's stop pretending that Nintendo don't plagarise as much as any other company (or even moreso) and let's not exclusively focus on one point in favour of Nintendo at the expense of the many points against them.

I'm not anti-Nintendo, but I see them stealing credit from the true innovators and being championed as innovators when they blatently aren't. I then see people making excuses for Nintendo copying by saying "Ah, but they made it mainstream!". This is a serious warping of facts to suit what the outspoken majority like to hear. The outspoken majority, unfortunately, is wrong.

Copying is copying. Whoever does it.

Exactly, it is copying, whoever does it. I agree with all of this post, except for the mainstream comment. I do agree that taking credit from the original party that did design a technology is wrong. However, bringing a technology into the mainstream (especially when the innovator who made the technology failed to implement it in the market) definitely deserves credit.

And analog, on the Vectrex, BTW wasn't a "thumbstick" as Nintendo introduced it (and everyone console has used it since). It was still a joystick (and a shitty one at that), there is a definite difference between the way you used them. Call that making an excuse if you will, but try using the Vectrex and N64 controllers, you cannot use that analog stick in the same method, unless you want a bleeding thumb.

[Player 1]

I dodged nothing - you just refuse to accept anything I say. I know what the fuck I'm talking about because I've been involved in the industry for longer than I care to quote and from retail to development. But you feel that your opinion or excuses for a company copying another carry some weight?

They don't.

Basing your argument on stuff like that isn't credible. Not in the real world. Not the world *I* inhabit. I don't find your statements credible, I don't find you credible. Trying to make you understand simple, historical facts appears to be a futile excersize when you suddenly want to champion one innovation (by brand X) over another (by brand Z).

Dual sticks aren't significant? Try telling the legions of console FPS fans that! Tell a HALO player that. Try telling a fan of Katamari Damacy that. They'll laugh at you and your attempt to rubbish one innovation over another.

You sir, are not credible. You're not worth responding to.

And if people don't like the way I deal with the whole COPYING issue, they want to be careful when bringing copying accusations into a discussion about controller design.

Copying is copying, Sony do it, Nintendo do it. Both acts are equal.

[TrackZero]

I dodged nothing - you just refuse to accept anything I say. I know what the fuck I'm talking about because I've been involved in the industry for longer than I care to quote and from retail to development. But you feel that your opinion or excuses for a company copying another carry some weight?

They don't.

Oh, and yours do? Like I have zero experience in gaming and what makes them fun. Sorry, I must have missed that somewhere. You think anyone in this forum respects your opinions over mine?

Basing your argument on stuff like that isn't credible. Not in the real world. Not the world *I* inhabit. I don't find your statements credible, I don't find you credible. Trying to make you understand simple, historical facts appears to be a futile excersize when you suddenly want to champion one innovation (by brand X) over another (by brand Z).

Yes, thanks for explaining how the Vectrex analog stick works like the N64 one, because they don't. Instead now it's about me mis-comparing brands and fudging historical facts.

Dual sticks aren't significant? Try telling the legions of console FPS fans that! Tell a HALO player that. Try telling a fan of Katamari Damacy that. They'll laugh at you and your attempt to rubbish one innovation over another.

I never said they weren't significant. I NEVER SAID THAT. I said it was an obvious thing to add to a controller. Something being significant has nothing to do with it being obvious or not.

You sir, are not credible. You're not worth responding to.

Goddamnit you are the most aggravating forum-goer I think I've ever encountered. You attack people on a personal level as some judgement of who they are simply because they had the gall to disagree with your apparently infalliable logic. Even when I did recognize a mistake in my argument, you wouldn't let it go, it suddenly became some "ace" card that you could then wave about claiming my views no longer mattered because I was unsure about about a single fact. Even though I agree wtih you by and large on almost everything discussed (except your opinions on me and why I'm not worthy of response). There's simply no satisfying you, except to apparently reply to you, giving you reasons to make further long-winded posts in reply to why the comments in question aren't worth talking about.

And if people don't like the way I deal with the whole COPYING issue, they want to be careful when bringing copying accusations into a discussion about controller design.

Copying is copying, Sony do it, Nintendo do it. Both acts are equal.

Yes, they BOTH DO. I AGREE.


In retrospect, I honestly don't understand why this escalated so far. All I did was pointed out that copying is the norm (which you agree with) and let someone know that dual shock wasn't the first analog controller (which you agree with). Prehaps it was my tone more than the content of my comments that aggravated you.

You want to point out that many of the innovations that are often made are mis-allocated to Nintendo from their original creators? That's true. My statement is that Nintendo took those ideas and put them into mainstream gaming, and we should thank them for that, otherwise many of them would not be in use today (or at least not yet). That's all, that's it. I'm out.

Peace.

[phantomhitman]

Sure, laud the controller redesign now, but some day you'll weep about how your DualShock3 proved useless in preventing a dingo from eating your baby.

good one

You know the ps3 is made to look in awe at, you do not play it, it plays you.™

[dr_wily]

track zero:

why do you even try? Arguing or justifying anything with Player 1 is a waste of time, breath, air, webspace, etc.

hes like a guy who comes to a shrink to talk then goes LALALALA when they make a diagnosis.

just ignore him and hopefully he'll go away. unfortunately its just too much of a good time to make fun of him.

[Kamalot]

why do you even try? Arguing or justifying anything with Player 1 is a waste of time, breath, air, webspace, etc.

The only way to win is not to play.

[SMES]

My statement is that Nintendo took those ideas and put them into mainstream gaming, and we should thank them for that, otherwise many of them would not be in use today

For a lesson in how to discuss the history of console controller design in a civil manner, refer to the following link:

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1980&Itemid=2

Understanding that changing something in a slight way (adding a second stick/more buttons) can be just as profound as a completely new invention is the key here. A simple evolution can make a big difference, and refinement on previous ideas is a fundamental element of modern civilization.

It is harsh and oversimplifying to use the word "copy" unless the form factor and implimentation is exactly the same. The shape of controllers, subtle button layout choices, and the inclusion of certain key features is what makes or breaks a controller.

Copying becomes irrelevant if Sony, Nintendo, or Microsoft are able to take something that was a failure in the past and make it a success. Nintendo with the D-Pad, analog sticks, shoulder buttons. Sony with prongs, dual analog, multi-shoulder buttons, standardized rumble. Microsoft with overall refinement and standard wireless controllers.

[SMES]

I think it's creepy, but did the author of the Next Gen article read this thread? A quote from the article:

"[Sony's] stolen from the best, and then – in most cases – doubled it. The SNES had two shoulder buttons? The Dual Shock makes 'em four. The N64 had one analog stick? Sony gives you two."

Compare to what I said...

Yes, Sony's dual sticks were a good idea. One thing Sony did very well was how they decided to multiply things. Two shoulder buttons not good enough? Tack on a couple more. One thumbstick for the N64, eh? Well, that's cool cause we got TWO, SUCKA!

Hmmm...

[SMES]

Upon further comparison, there are a number of points made in both this thread and the article on Next Gen. The fact that the Next Gen article was released mere hours after most of the posts in this thread were made raises a lot of flags in my mind.

Can't prove it, but re-read the points raised in this thread, then read that Next Gen article. The Next Gen article was posted at 11:57 PM last night... well after all the most relevant comments on the subject had been made, giving a brown nosing staff writer at Next Gen just enough time to digest and reword this thread into a paycheck for himself.

Hmmmmm!

[Player 1]

track zero:

why do you even try? Arguing or justifying anything with Player 1 is a waste of time, breath, air, webspace, etc.

hes like a guy who comes to a shrink to talk then goes LALALALA when they make a diagnosis.

just ignore him and hopefully he'll go away. unfortunately its just too much of a good time to make fun of him.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Another dr_wily troll post.

"Attack the person, not the argument" still working for you then is it?

Folks like you are hilarious. You demonstrate more and more that you'd rather not have people post *different* views because you'd rather not hear them and "hopefully he'll go away".

What a nice little bubble you live in.

I will concede to Dr_Wily that arguing with me *will* be a waste of time unless you truly have your shit together. I don't make statements that I can't back up with factual proof. If you feel opinion, insults or introducing some sort of conveniently constructed get-out clause for your preferred company "Oh. they made it mainstream so that's ok!" is going to devalue my point of vew then yes, you are totally wasting your time.

Beat my statements down with fact, back up what you say with something more substantional than your opinion or swear words. Making attacks on my character doesn't make your argument any more valid, it just demonstrates your inability to remain composed and mature.

I'll happily concede against facts and inarguable logic. But, Dr_Wily's right - all else will be a waste of time.

[dr_wily]

Beat my statements down with fact, back up what you say with something more substantional than your opinion or swear words. Making attacks on my character doesn't make your argument any more valid, it just demonstrates your inability to remain composed and mature.



I know what the fuck I'm talking about..



Utter bullshit. You want to believe this,



You sir, are not credible. You're not worth responding to.



Deluded fanboys piss me off.


..........

[Player 1]

Congratulations Dr_Wily. You found the QUOTE button.