Sony to Cut 10,000 Jobs and Focus on "Championship Products" [Archive]

fitbabits

01-06-2006, 11:33 AM

CNN (http://www.cnn.com)'s Technology (http://www.cnn.com/TECH/) section has more details (http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/ptech/01/06/ces.sony.ap/index.html).

Problems with an aggressive copy protection program attached to several CDs from Sony BMG Music Entertainment reflect the difficulties balancing the needs of artists and consumers, Sony Corp. chairman and CEO Sir Howard Stringer said Thursday.

"Clearly the perception out there is that we shouldn't be doing too much of that copy protection stuff," Stringer said at a news conference at the annual Consumer Electronics Show.

...

Stringer said a reorganization effort at Sony continues, with emphasis on ending the scattershot approach to promoting a myriad of products. He said the company would carefully select a small number of "championship products" as the focus of promotional efforts.

"Apple's market capitalization is $50 billion based on a handful (of products)," Stringer said. "We have thousands and our market cap is less than that. Is there a message in there? Can't we just keep it simpler?"

He said his efforts at cutting costs and reorganizing the company around several core units is progressing slowly but steadily.

Company executives intend to meet next week in Hawaii to assess the restructuring. The company is planning to cut 10,000 jobs.
So the corporote executives are off to Hawaii to decide the fate of 10,000 of their employees. That's some decent PR right there.

And I'm guessing the PS3 is one of their so-called "championship products".

Doomsday

01-06-2006, 11:36 AM

Taking a vacation in Hawaii while you decide 10,000 peoples jobs is fucking disgusting

Doctor Setebos

01-06-2006, 11:36 AM

Let me be the first to say: DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!

51|RandoM

01-06-2006, 11:41 AM

Taking a vacation in Hawaii while you decide 10,000 peoples jobs is fucking disgusting

Hawaii might actually make quite a bit of sense, if you figure half the execs are coming from the US, and the other half from Japan.

In between your knee jerk reactions, try checking out a world map. :-)

Citizen Philip

01-06-2006, 11:45 AM

I think a pyramid made of the 10 000 skulls and numerous chairs made of human bones would go a long way to improve Sony's current image.

bapenguin

01-06-2006, 11:47 AM

So this is how they are planning to reduce the loss for including Blu-Ray in a $400 console.

EvilBob46

01-06-2006, 11:48 AM

Taking a vacation in Hawaii while you decide 10,000 peoples jobs is fucking disgusting

Uh, where does it say they're taking a vacation? O, wait, it doesn't. What the hell? See the above post.

Fact: Sony has too many products on the market and the company has had a whole slew of other issues. If they're going to cut back on their bloated product lines and become more cost-efficient, people are going to be layed off. Sad but true. Sony might actually come out a better company in the end, after the restructuring.

bean19

01-06-2006, 11:49 AM

Hawaii might actually make quite a bit of sense, if you figure half the execs are coming from the US, and the other half from Japan.

In between your knee jerk reactions, try checking out a world map. :-)

Do they have offices in Hawii, or are they renting? It is less expensive in airfare and in hotel costs to have American execs fly to the Japanese office (or vice versa).

This might be a good move to establish neutral ground as some heads on each side are going to fly and it seperates them, somewhat, from the people they are going to have to screw over. However, it is really bad PR.

SirKnightXCX

01-06-2006, 11:57 AM

Hawaii might actually make quite a bit of sense, if you figure half the execs are coming from the US, and the other half from Japan.

In between your knee jerk reactions, try checking out a world map. :-)

If you've ever been to Honolulu, you would probably know that the whole place is Japanese! The Japanese have come back to Hawaii in a different way because they weren't able to pull off another suprise attack! Seriously, Honolulu is like 70% Japanese tourists and Japanese people living there.

Zanzibar

01-06-2006, 12:02 PM

Hawaii might actually make quite a bit of sense, if you figure half the execs are coming from the US, and the other half from Japan.

In between your knee jerk reactions, try checking out a world map. :-)

Try taking an economics course. This way, you're guaranteeing that EVERYBODY has to pay for plane fare, AND pay for hotel rooms, AND meals for everyone!

Genital Eclipse

01-06-2006, 12:02 PM

How did we determine they were going on vacation to Hawaii?

All i read was that they were meeting to determine who, what, and where job cuts will come. Sounds like business to me.

I love forums. Nice work you god damn detectives.

Zanzibar

01-06-2006, 12:05 PM

Uh, where does it say they're taking a vacation? O, wait, it doesn't. What the hell? See the above post.

Yeah, if they're working, I'm sure Hawaii is going to make it unbearable. Why not Alaska, then? It sure would be cheaper to rent rooms and meeting spaces.

fitbabits

01-06-2006, 12:06 PM

If you've ever been to Honolulu, you would probably know that the whole place is Japanese! The Japanese have come back to Hawaii in a different way because they weren't able to pull off another suprise attack! Seriously, Honolulu is like 70% Japanese tourists and Japanese people living there.
Honolulu demographics:

One race 316183 85.07%
White 73093 19.67%
Black or African American 6038 1.62%
American Indian and Alaska Native 689 0.19%
Asian 207588 55.85%
Asian indian 816 0.22%
Chinese 39600 10.65%
Filipino 43187 11.62%
Japanese 86612 23.3%
Korean 15586 4.19%
Vietnamese 5978 1.61%
Other Asian 15809 4.25%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander 25457 6.85%
Native Hawaiian 13558 3.65%
Guamanian or Chamorro 611 0.16%
Samoan 5619 1.51%
Other Pacific Islander 5669 1.53%
Some other race 3318 0.89%
Two or more races 55474 14.93%

Source (http://honolulu.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm)

ezra

01-06-2006, 12:14 PM

This just in! Large companies and their executives make lots of money and can afford to fly people to Hawaii! Woop dee doo!

This is probably the lamest possible reason to bash sony. Cmon guys.

Borys

01-06-2006, 12:14 PM

KNOTE

01-06-2006, 12:15 PM

Bad news for the Vaio and the Aibo...

bapenguin

01-06-2006, 12:16 PM

fitbabits

01-06-2006, 12:19 PM

A day without a Sony troll is a day lost to fitbabits.

I'm confused now... :confused:

Novacaine

01-06-2006, 12:21 PM

I'm sure that Hawaii was also picked because of time. Execs in the US and Japan could take a flight half as long/grueling and meet in their offices in Hawaii. It's pretty standard practice for companies with large holdings in the US and Asia. I remember thinking it was cool that SQUARE had offices in Hawaii.

And it is good PR for SONY to be firing 10,000. If you are a SONY stock holder then it is probably really good news. I bet their share prices went up right after the announcement. And if you aren't a stock holder you won't care when you go to make your next purchase at BESTBUY. I'm sure you still buy stuff at Walmart, Target, etc. knowing that the reason your purchase is so cheap is because some poor bastard in China is being worked to death and then replaced when he asks for a raise. I love it when people get outraged about people being fired or taken advantage of but the same people do absolutely nothing about it when making purchase decisions. If you don't shop at any mega stores and don't buy any products from megacorps, then I admire you for standing by your convictions, but I doubt there are many if any of you out there.

Genital Eclipse

01-06-2006, 12:22 PM

Except I said NOTHING about a vacation. Check your facts, Borys.

Wow, it's comedy hour on EA right now.

fitbabits

01-06-2006, 12:26 PM

Wow, it's comedy hour on EA right now.
And unfortunately for you, I'll be here all week!

astronautsandwich

01-06-2006, 12:26 PM

A day without a Sony troll is a day lost to fitbabits.
Gen, you didn't tell me you were a Sony troll. i can no longer be your friend. But I will still be in your gang.

CrysDark

01-06-2006, 12:27 PM

fitbabits

01-06-2006, 12:31 PM

So which products will survive? I think movies, TV Sets, the Playstation lines (ps3 & psp), cell phone lines, the proprietary formats they champion (BluRay, Mem-Stick), maybe thier PC's. Kiss the rest goodbye?
Hard to say, but their TV business is getting killed by both Samsung and Panasonic. Movies will survive. Blu-Ray will survive, even if it bankrupts them. PC side will probably fade away - too much competition and not enough return.

Rakael

01-06-2006, 12:39 PM

I think this is a great thing for Sony as a company to do. It has obviously needed it for many years. This may well be a great thing for the entertainment industry as well.

Don't get me wrong, I do feel for all of the people they fire, but thats the way things work. Sorry.

Oh, and by the way, how is it any different for Sony executives to meet in Hawaii to discuss layoffs than it is for MS or some other megacorp to meet anywhere to discuss layoffs? Either way, people get fired. Of course, its just more fuel on the fire for the crusade against Sony around here.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure all of those executives are bloated, overpaid assholes. Just like the executives for MS, Toshiba, etc, etc. Executives are concerned about the bottom line, period. If their company isn't profitable, something must be done. When that said thing is done and the company gets restructured, its inevitable for people to loose their jobs. Its just a sad fact of the fucked up world we live in. 10,000 is a lot of people, but their have been even worse layoffs in recent memory. Again, sorry.

CrysDark

01-06-2006, 12:47 PM

Hard to say, but their TV business is getting killed by both Samsung and Panasonic. Movies will survive. Blu-Ray will survive, even if it bankrupts them. PC side will probably fade away - too much competition and not enough return.

I was under the impression that they were getting killed on the value end of thier TV sets, but the high dollar sets were outstanding?

see colon

01-06-2006, 12:50 PM

fitbabits

01-06-2006, 12:51 PM

I was under the impression that they were getting killed on the value end of thier TV sets, but the high dollar sets were outstanding?
The quality of their high-end sets is fantastic, but I believe Panasonic are leading the way in sales figures, with Samsung speedily gaining ground. My father-in-law has bought Sony product his whole life, but he opted for an Aquos as his HDTV of choice.

vallor

01-06-2006, 01:02 PM

How bout instead of flying everyone to Hawaii they have a conference call? :)

Seriously though, for those of you defending Sony on this, there's no positive way to spin this. 10,000 Jobs is A LOT. A REAL Lot. Jesus, that's a friggin small town.

They would have had a conference call but the telecommunications and video conferencing divisions don't fall into the "champion products" arena and have been cut.

Seriously though, how many of those 10k jobs could they save if they found a less expensive venue (Hawaii in the winter is peak season). This isn't going to be a shindig where they rent out the Marriot meeting space for everyone, I bet dollars to donuts these meetings will happen frequently on holes 1 - 19.

Better yet, it is cheaper right now to fly to the gulf coast, even from Asia, and I bet they'd get a humdinger of a deal on lodging/meeting spaces and would be helping re-build an economy in a country that probably accounts for a very large percentage of their annual sales; same could be said of ANY place that is reeling from the effects of a natural disaster from 04/05.

But no, they have to pick possibly one of the most expensive venues possible while they talk about dismissing tons of people.

And you are fooling yourself if you don't think the availbility of the various leasiure activites aren't factoring into the location (read: CHEAP GOLF!).

As someone who has been laid off in the past while the execs were given 1st class plane tickets each week so they could "commute" from a different city (guess they didn't want to move) this chaps my ass.

netcraazzy

01-06-2006, 01:05 PM

Sony's PC division is my vote for 1st to get the axe. Their computers have long been overpriced and I doubt they are making much money considering the fierce price competition in that industry. I also suspect their MP3 player line may go away since they have been fairly unsuccessful in getting people to adopt their DRM'd to hell audio formats.

vallor

01-06-2006, 01:05 PM

the only people who buy sony TVs are the people who buy them because they believe sony makes a better TV. they are brand oriented people. everyone else buys something that's cheap and effective, fits in their entertainment center, and has the inputs/outputs they are looking for.

The WEGA sets when first introduced seemed miles ahead in image quality. Granted they had a ton of problems but for those sets that performed correctly it was amazing.

jwbxx

01-06-2006, 01:14 PM

They'll probably cut U.S jobs first. Since that's the trend in business now.

doubtingthomas

01-06-2006, 01:15 PM

If I can jump in a be a bit of a dick here, fix the headline. It irks me when things are misspelled, but you should really check it when you quote somebody. When you put "Championsip Products" in quotes, I think that Sony or CNN can't spell Championship, since you quoted them. However, its just you that can't quote someone correctly.

/I'm probably being way too uptight............

Citizen Philip

01-06-2006, 01:15 PM

Cut off the most useless part. You tell me why they cut jobs where they do. If it's important its left alone.

fitbabits

01-06-2006, 01:25 PM

Stooby

01-06-2006, 01:34 PM

Even though TVs aren't their strongest product anymore they won't get rid of them. It still has the potential to be extremely profitable.

They may slash their car audio segment, but not their home audio. Their portable audio division will get the axe most likely.

Their games division will be fine. Their camcorder and digital camera business will also be perfectly fine, even though their digital cameras are pieces of shit.

This actually is a very good idea for Sony. They have spread themselves too thin. At one point Sony was synonymous with quality for most people. Now I hear people constantly bitch about how Sony shit always breaks first and is always the most expensive to repair.

Maybe they will wisen up and start using non-proprietary parts and formats.

Beelzebud

01-06-2006, 01:36 PM

You know. I can finally say this, knowing I'm not full of shit:

I'll never buy a Sony product again! No more of their TV's, monitors, stereo equipment, or video games!

I'm done with them.

Sl1pstream

01-06-2006, 01:42 PM

Sony's PC division is my vote for 1st to get the axe.

Didn't they just announce a new VAIO PC/Media Center?

Nite_Moogle

01-06-2006, 01:46 PM

This is my plan for allowing Sony to regain the lead: stop making shitty products.

H.Bogard

01-06-2006, 01:49 PM

I hope kutaragi is one of those 10,000.....
Chairman of bullshit department.

rein

01-06-2006, 02:09 PM

AniAko

01-06-2006, 02:10 PM

I can't help it, but I have the perfect song lyrics. I was listening to this all week awaiting Corporations decisions to slash jobs this fiscal year. My family has been the victim of many downsizing companies. Why should the little guy pay for the big dogs fucking up? If they'd do their jobs correctly, a company would NEVER grow outside of it's bounds. Fucking Fucks.

When Rhetoric Dies ~Boy Sets Fire

We raise the flags and statues to our mission.
We've spoken out in slogans and in campaigns.
We talked and talked on almost every issue,
Where oppression of the masses is the constant theme.

But what does this mean to a little town in Iowa?
Where the jobs have gone downstream, down south, down and out,
Where their fingers used to work to the bone all day,
Profits rise and fall and starvation is a game?

Where is the food that used to cover their table?
Where is the sense of pride at then end of the day?
To the face of a thriving corporation,
What could a dying family possibly say?

On the face of every american worker,
Is the constant fear that their job will not remain.
As the CEO is planning his vacation,
To kill or be killed is a nature of the beast.

Where is the food that used to cover their table?
Where is the sense of pride at then end of the day?
To the face of a thriving corporation,
What could a dying family possibly say?

Stand in line...
Take a number.
You sell your soul
Then watch it crumble
Into a pile of rubble.
That used to be
your job
your life
your ...
Family's daily bread
Dry and stale malnourished kids.
The house is sold for a degrading bid

Do we continue to talk?
Or do we take a hammer...
...to their chains?
...to their chains?
...to their ...
...chains?

Kefkataran

01-06-2006, 02:12 PM

Let me be the first to say: DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!

I'm with this guy.

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM! DOOMDOOMDOOOOOOM!

Rakael

01-06-2006, 02:16 PM

*In Gir voice*

I'm gonna sing the doom song now...doomydoomdoomdoom.....

DeadPixel

01-06-2006, 02:19 PM

I remember in 2000 at JavaONE in San Francisco I spotted a whole team of SONY employees sitting on bean bags for hours playing PS1s. That's right, $800/day company expense to visit development seminars and the employees are hogging up the bean bags with their fat EQ playing asses.

Not only that I lost most of my respect towards SONY in the recent months, I do not feel sorry for the people that stuck around working there. Don't let the office door slap your ass ont he way out.

drakkarim

01-06-2006, 02:19 PM

This just in! Large companies and their executives make lots of money and can afford to fly people to Hawaii! Woop dee doo!

This is probably the lamest possible reason to bash sony. Cmon guys.

This just in! Large companies and their executives make lots of money and can afford to fly people to Hawaii because they; first pass the costs on to the consumers as part of 'business', then take a tax write off on it as a business expense.

granted, this is all the f'ing companies, so a good reason to bash all the money whorring bitches at the top of the ladders who fire people left and right just to make sure they get a bigger bonus at the end of the year.

AniAko

01-06-2006, 02:19 PM

Sony has offices in Hawaii. I think some of you would find a way to bitch if Sony found the cure for cancer and gave it away for free.

I does suck about the lay-offs. It really sucks if you are one of the 10,000. However, it is the right move for Sony if it wants to survive.

How about Sony bucks up to the fuck ups they've made and starts slashing salaries at the top and work their way down to make up for the 10,000 headcount salary cut they want to do????

AniAko

01-06-2006, 02:20 PM

This just in! Large companies and their executives make lots of money and can afford to fly people to Hawaii because they; first pass the costs on to the consumers as part of 'business', then take a tax write off on it as a business expense.

granted, this is all the f'ing companies, so a good reason to bash all the money whorring bitches at the top of the ladders who fire people left and right just to make sure they get a bigger bonus at the end of the year.

That and you don't need a 1st class trans-pacific flight to get you to Hawaii. But god forbid they don't piss money away and wipe their assees with c-notes..... two-ply at that.

AniAko

01-06-2006, 02:24 PM

How bout instead of flying everyone to Hawaii they have a conference call? :)

Seriously though, for those of you defending Sony on this, there's no positive way to spin this. 10,000 Jobs is A LOT. A REAL Lot. Jesus, that's a friggin small town.

It will destroy the town, just like any other huge layoff blunder in corporate history.

drakkarim

01-06-2006, 02:28 PM

AniAko

01-06-2006, 02:34 PM

the sad part is nobody would REALLY have to take a pay cut even if they simply got rid of some of the perks for a year or two from the top whores. i.e. no private jets, no private cars, no private golf memberships, no private health club memberships, no private Health-Hotel memberships in Japan....oh wait, they can keep that one....

:mad: GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRR Fucking Fuckity Fucks. Sorry, but like I said, my family has suffered layoffs, and I can't stand how companies can get away with acting irresponsibly. I'm soo steaming pissed I could beat up Sony's Big dog's and their families. Why isn't Player 1 in here defending his beloved Sony now?????

thecrazyd

01-06-2006, 02:42 PM

the sad part is nobody would REALLY have to take a pay cut even if they simply got rid of some of the perks for a year or two from the top whores. i.e. no private jets, no private cars, no private golf memberships, no private health club memberships, no private Health-Hotel memberships in Japan....oh wait, they can keep that one....
Except that wouldn't solve the problem. They are not profitable because they are spreading theirselves too thin and focusing on quantity instead of quality. As I see it, this is a necessary evil in order to tighten up the company. Sorry, fired guys.

Citizen Philip

01-06-2006, 03:06 PM

The best part about bandwagons is when the wheel breaks and everyone falls off: only a few admit to have been on it, a few are accused of falling off it and the rest quietly pretend they were never there.

rein

01-06-2006, 03:07 PM

How about Sony bucks up to the fuck ups they've made and starts slashing salaries at the top and work their way down to make up for the 10,000 headcount salary cut they want to do????

They are not cutting salaries becaus it has shit to do with the problems they are facing... .they are cutting production of some items. That means they do not need as many employees. No salary cuts will solve that problem. Who knows, they may lose a few corporate level positions too.

Heretic Machine

01-06-2006, 03:37 PM

...I don't care about any of this. I don't like Sony as a company, and so I don't like their employees either. Fuck'em all, and fuck Sony too. I hope Blu-ray snorts up your money like a Tokyo business man snorting cocain off a cosplaying hooker's ass.

Citizen Philip

01-06-2006, 03:40 PM

bobbler

01-06-2006, 03:45 PM

Wasn't this announced, like, several months ago?

I believe there was even a topic about it (I can't seem to find it now though).

But here is a mention from september of it... Here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4270302.stm)

This article just happens to mention it along with some other stuff, it isn't a new happening -- this was one of the first things stringer said he was going to do.

I like the rest of the article though, glad stringer realizes that everything thinks that Sony BMG are a bunch of shit eaters.

Cool AN

01-06-2006, 03:50 PM

A Lusty Alien

01-06-2006, 04:13 PM

bobbler

01-06-2006, 04:15 PM

I wonder what side of the cost cutting axe SOE is on?

No, seriously. I'm asking a real question here.

EverQuest used to be a license to print money, but that was a whole other world. I wonder what the bottom line is now? And if they decide to remove themselves from the online gaming industry, would they sell it as a whole or in pieces?

They still print money, just not as much.

MMOs at the moment are quite profitable (as long as they reach a certain level of users, it's pure profit with almost no expense per person added). Blizzard's little gem is probably making a profit % that would scare most companies.

Straydog3d

01-06-2006, 04:27 PM

SOE is fine, it is still the electronics divivsion that is struggling. the 10,000 people to be cut are pretty much guaranteed to be in manufacturing. Sony surprisingly still has a fair amount of manufacturing being done in the US and Japan where it is not cost effective to pay someone to insert tab B into slot A 400 times a day

TrackZero

01-06-2006, 04:35 PM

As someone who has been laid off in the past while the execs were given 1st class plane tickets each week so they could "commute" from a different city (guess they didn't want to move) this chaps my ass.

Seconded. Anyone defending the Sony bigwigs for this simply don't have a clue. I worked at WorldCom through those years of bullshit, to finally be dropped on about the 7th round of layoffs in my office. Meanwhile, the execs kept getting bonuses for the number of us they got rid of (I swear, they didn't even know what any of us did, they just picked people who's attitude they didn't like).

Sony execs going to Hawaii while planning to lay off 10,000 people just further smacks of their arrogance, even when they should be humbled by the way their business is going.

This combined with the rootkit bullshit, I'll never buy another Sony proudct again.

thecrazyd

01-06-2006, 04:49 PM

Seconded. Anyone defending the Sony bigwigs for this simply don't have a clue. I worked at WorldCom through those years of bullshit, to finally be dropped on about the 7th round of layoffs in my office. Meanwhile, the execs kept getting bonuses for the number of us they got rid of (I swear, they didn't even know what any of us did, they just picked people who's attitude they didn't like).

Sony execs going to Hawaii while planning to lay off 10,000 people just further smacks of their arrogance, even when they should be humbled by the way their business is going.

This combined with the rootkit bullshit, I'll never buy another Sony proudct again.
Oh, comon. They are restructuring their business because it is not a profitable model. They are not laying off people because they can't afford to keep them on. Layoffs are a necessity to restructure the way they are. If they stop producing (for instance) digital cameras, then do you think they should keep everyone in the digital camera department on, just to be nice? They are in the business of making money, not throwing it away. If this is all in the name of making less products that are higher quality, then this is important. They are spreading themselves too thin, and it is good that they see this and are looking to improve. Much sadness to the people that are laid off, but it is in the name of making better products.

Player 1

01-06-2006, 05:14 PM

I does suck about the lay-offs. It really sucks if you are one of the 10,000. However, it is the right move for Sony if it wants to survive.

Ah, but there's the rub! 90% of Evil Avatar are pissed off because they don't want Sony to survive.

I can't help it, but I have the perfect song lyrics. I was listening to this all week awaiting Corporations decisions to slash jobs this fiscal year.

On the face of every american worker,
Is the constant fear that their job will not remain.
As the CEO is planning his vacation,
To kill or be killed is a nature of the beast.

Holy shit! Has it already been announced that Sony are exclusively laying off US staff?

Allow me to educate you, Inevitable Winter: America is NOT the world. Your post borders on bigotry and is incredibly vulgar.

How about Sony bucks up to the fuck ups they've made and starts slashing salaries at the top and work their way down to make up for the 10,000 headcount salary cut they want to do????

How about you and everyone else stops jumping the fucking gun and stops acting out assumptions in your head and then bitching about shit that hasn't even happened?

Jeez. I thought you guys had learned your lessons about taking a rumour to extremes. Guess I was wrong on that one, huh?

:mad: GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRR Fucking Fuckity Fucks. Sorry, but like I said, my family has suffered layoffs, and I can't stand how companies can get away with acting irresponsibly. I'm soo steaming pissed I could beat up Sony's Big dog's and their families. Why isn't Player 1 in here defending his beloved Sony now?????

That's cute - you don't mind it that other families should suffer, so long as the ones you like are ok? That's a real decent attitude you got there.

And thanks for the namecheck - only earlier today I was saying how I don't even need to be in a topic for people to bitch about me - and there you go proving me right. Again.

And I don't love Sony (but it's so nice to be judged by someone who clearly can only see things in shades of black and white and assumes a "if you don't hate them then you must love them" stance) , I just hate this ridiculous company love/hate bullshit this culture demonstrates. You have your hate campaign and you'll bitch till the cows come home (and then some) but you won't check facts and you won't acknowledge anything that doesn't add fuel to your fire.

This entire attitude is FUCKING DUMB and it's destroying the credibility of this culture. That pisses me off more than anything else. :mad:

thegameguru

01-06-2006, 05:25 PM

The Sony Bravia (sp?) LCD TV line is a JV with Samsung... thus the higher quality and lower price..

Its in many ways a much more competitive arena for Sony on pretty much all their fronts...

SMES

01-06-2006, 05:57 PM

Holy shit! fucking gun bitching about shit bitch about me bullshit bitch till the cows come home FUCKING DUMB pisses me off :mad:

Sorry, couldn't resist ;)

Seriously though, there is a love-hate reaction to any announcement about people being laid off for the greater good. This is especially true when it affects you or someone you know.

We live in a world that demands high salaries for executives/administration. It is incorrect to automatically assume that the little people are being cut in favor of high paid executives. This may very well be true, but we mostly all agree that Sony needed to make some changes, and cutting production and overhead can be the most efficient way to reduce costs. There are a lot of manufacturing jobs attached to those cuts, so the jobs go too.

With so little information it's hard to judge Sony for making a decision like this.

The "American worker" lyrics do apply, though, if you just take out the word "american" and as long as you think of it as a greater sort of humanist commentary on the lowest paid people (who often need the income the most) being the first to be laid off.

HotCoffeeDude

01-06-2006, 06:24 PM

SONY needs to get their collective head out of their collective ass and fire some of the people responsible for all the shitty business decisions they've made lately. All things being equal, however, I'd bet the majority of said people are on their way to Hawaii.

Kamalot

01-06-2006, 07:08 PM

I'm shocked to find out that Apple makes more than Sony.

HA!

Kamalot

01-06-2006, 07:13 PM

H.Bogard

01-06-2006, 07:21 PM

So...........................we forming an angry mob or what? Can i light the torch now?

bobbler

01-06-2006, 07:46 PM

The thing is, if the business was peoperly managed, they wouldn't need a move this drastic. Many smaller rounds of layoffs over the years would have kept the company smaller, more focused and less likely to bloat out of control.

Sony only has Sony to blame for its current state.

Sony isn't blaming anyone though...

And how are many smaller rounds of layoffs any better? it's still laying people off, which is apparently dispicable, because making sure the company as a whole can continue to run and give jobs to the thousands of other employees is worse. Some of you grasp at the craziest straws to try to make whatever Sony does sound bad.

There are many bad things that happen in the business world, that's life. Find another job and deal with it. Sometimes things don't work out, and that's the way it works. In this case, forgive me if I don't raise hell because they are laying people off, because, frankly, if it means Sony can start producing more things like Bravias and their Playstation line, then I'm all for it.

buckfutter

01-06-2006, 08:01 PM

You can't blame Sony for capitalism, I'm afraid. It's a pretty shitty thing to do, but if you want to yell at them like they're the only ones doing it, you might want to pick something different to get indignant about.

Kefkataran

01-06-2006, 08:21 PM

TrackZero

01-06-2006, 09:15 PM

Oh, comon. They are restructuring their business because it is not a profitable model. They are not laying off people because they can't afford to keep them on. Layoffs are a necessity to restructure the way they are. If they stop producing (for instance) digital cameras, then do you think they should keep everyone in the digital camera department on, just to be nice? They are in the business of making money, not throwing it away. If this is all in the name of making less products that are higher quality, then this is important. They are spreading themselves too thin, and it is good that they see this and are looking to improve. Much sadness to the people that are laid off, but it is in the name of making better products.

Crazy, read what you just wrote. I never had any problem with their layoffs. But you don't go on a fucking Hawaiin vacation to get together and make those cuts. It's a blatant waste of the money you're supposed to be saving! Secondly it's a slap in the face to those who are being let go. Restructuring isn't the issue, the issue is how they're going about it, which is shameful and without excuse.

Edit: And to everyone else above, I ask that you re-read my (and others) comments. Noone is blaming capitalism or the need to perform restructuring as being a problem. The issue, directly at hand is how it is being performed, noone's tangenting this off into some other field of discussion. If you still love your PS2, fine, this has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH THAT. So don't feel the need to stand up for Sony with regards to this issue, those are two seperate things. This is about being a executive asshole who doesn't know how to treat his fellow employees with the respect they deserve.

thecrazyd

01-06-2006, 10:02 PM

Crazy, read what you just wrote. I never had any problem with their layoffs. But you don't go on a fucking Hawaiin vacation to get together and make those cuts. It's a blatant waste of the money you're supposed to be saving! Secondly it's a slap in the face to those who are being let go. Restructuring isn't the issue, the issue is how they're going about it, which is shameful and without excuse.

Edit: And to everyone else above, I ask that you re-read my (and others) comments. Noone is blaming capitalism or the need to perform restructuring as being a problem. The issue, directly at hand is how it is being performed, noone's tangenting this off into some other field of discussion. If you still love your PS2, fine, this has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH THAT. So don't feel the need to stand up for Sony with regards to this issue, those are two seperate things. This is about being a executive asshole who doesn't know how to treat his fellow employees with the respect they deserve.
Why are you assuming that it is a hawaiian vacation? Sony has a headquarters in Hawaii, and, as others have said, spatially it is a middle ground between Japan and America. I understand you have been screwed by executives before, but this is not a case of them pissing away their company to reap short term rewards; this is a major step towards Sony becoming a better company. Yeah, it sucks, but it is necessary. This is nothing to boycot Sony over, as at a consumer level this is a better thing and can promote future growth, if it works.

I can't believe I am defending Sony. It just looks like some people are looking for reasons to be mad at them.

TrackZero

01-06-2006, 10:38 PM

Why are you assuming that it is a hawaiian vacation? Sony has a headquarters in Hawaii, and, as others have said, spatially it is a middle ground between Japan and America. I understand you have been screwed by executives before, but this is not a case of them pissing away their company to reap short term rewards; this is a major step towards Sony becoming a better company. Yeah, it sucks, but it is necessary. This is nothing to boycot Sony over, as at a consumer level this is a better thing and can promote future growth, if it works.

I can't believe I am defending Sony. It just looks like some people are looking for reasons to be mad at them.

Sony has a headquarters in lots of different countries. But it's common knowledge that their head execs would be in Japan and North America. As has been discussed earlier in this thread, it's far cheaper to just have the Asia staff go to the west coast of NA (or vice versa) than it is to bring both parties to Hawaii. Nor does it even need to be done at that location, they could have easily met at a cheaper locale entirely.

You simply do not announce that your executive teams are going to Hawaii to assess restructuring, unless you do not give a damn about your own employees.

Also, another side note. Corporate "restructuring" rarely has the effect you're thinking of. The company doesn't suddenly change it's direction or mindset on it's products/services. All it does is lays off workers to temporarily recover it's books and make their stock look tempting to investors, while changing their corporate branding strategy to make people forget about how bad they were fucking up and how they're now moving in a "new direction". But underneath the bullshit, it's the same damn company making the same types of choices in their business, just with a new coat of paint thrown on top and possibly a few product lines discontinued.

InstaPete

01-06-2006, 10:44 PM

Sony's PC division is my vote for 1st to get the axe. Their computers have long been overpriced and I doubt they are making much money considering the fierce price competition in that industry.

Overpriced, yes. Beauuuuuuutiful, also yes. the vaio laptops are SO nice, and the desktops are kind of ugly, but also really well designed. They're the easiest cases that I've ever had to open.

Kefkataran

01-06-2006, 10:54 PM

This is about being a executive asshole who doesn't know how to treat his fellow employees with the respect they deserve.

Like most executives in most big companies. That's the point that people were making, I think. The problem is that capitalism, by its nature, breeds these kind of assholes. That doesn't make it right by any means, and it doesn't make the potential behind this story any less sick, but it's still a truth that is unavoidable in our society.

Sony has a headquarters in lots of different countries. But it's common knowledge that their head execs would be in Japan and North America. As has been discussed earlier in this thread, it's far cheaper to just have the Asia staff go to the west coast of NA (or vice versa) than it is to bring both parties to Hawaii. Nor does it even need to be done at that location, they could have easily met at a cheaper locale entirely.

People are saying its cheaper, but I don't think anyone has shown any hard numbers or math here. If it's true that Sony does have a headquarters at Hawaii, I'm not sure why it would specifically or certainly be cheaper to go to any place else. Again, not really defending Sony so much as I think this is being a bit blown out of proportion (as Sony-related things tend to be around here).

51|RandoM

01-06-2006, 10:55 PM

Try taking an economics course. This way, you're guaranteeing that EVERYBODY has to pay for plane fare, AND pay for hotel rooms, AND meals for everyone!

Try learning how multi-national corps work, especially when it comes to travel and lodging.

:-)

You might also check out how much round trip tickets from tokyo to la are, then compare tokyo to hawaii and hawaii to la. You might want to rethink your position at that point, perhaps.

TrackZero

01-07-2006, 01:42 AM

Like most executives in most big companies. That's the point that people were making, I think. The problem is that capitalism, by its nature, breeds these kind of assholes. That doesn't make it right by any means, and it doesn't make the potential behind this story any less sick, but it's still a truth that is unavoidable in our society.

People are saying its cheaper, but I don't think anyone has shown any hard numbers or math here. If it's true that Sony does have a headquarters at Hawaii, I'm not sure why it would specifically or certainly be cheaper to go to any place else. Again, not really defending Sony so much as I think this is being a bit blown out of proportion (as Sony-related things tend to be around here).

Ah, you're probably right. I'm just expressing my general disgust with Sony that seems to be all the worse of late (and only gets inflamed when people actually try to defend them). Only time's going to tell if this restructuring does them any good in the marketplace.

Kefkataran

01-07-2006, 02:19 AM

Ah, you're probably right. I'm just expressing my general disgust with Sony that seems to be all the worse of late (and only gets inflamed when people actually try to defend them). Only time's going to tell if this restructuring does them any good in the marketplace.

I definitely understand the sentiments, and certainly there's been a lot of activities reported that make Sony look bad. I just fear those things tend to be reported more readily and with more attention around EvAv than anything else, which is unfortunate.

Either way, I think the main thing I got from this story is that it really does suck that 10,000 people are going to be losing their jobs. Like someone else pointed out earlier, that's a small city. Hell, it's double the population of my hometown. I hope all those people can recover and get back on their feet as quickly as possible. Real crummy way to kick off the new year, that's for sure.

Player 1

01-07-2006, 04:31 AM

And how are many smaller rounds of layoffs any better? it's still laying people off, which is apparently dispicable, because making sure the company as a whole can continue to run and give jobs to the thousands of other employees is worse. Some of you grasp at the craziest straws to try to make whatever Sony does sound bad.

Who knows.. ..maybe none of this would happen if knee-jerk reactionists didn't keep yelling things like "That's it! I'm *never* buying Sony products ever again!".

Actions have consequences.

BenN1ce

01-07-2006, 05:17 AM

From a company standpoint I would rather lay off 10,000 people than lose 4 billion dollars like MS did with the XBOX.

TrackZero

01-07-2006, 07:26 AM

Who knows.. ..maybe none of this would happen if knee-jerk reactionists didn't keep yelling things like "That's it! I'm *never* buying Sony products ever again!".

Actions have consequences.

Yes, now I, the consumer are at fault for the layoffs, since I won't buy their shitty products. Shame on me.

And once again, it had little to do with the layoffs themselves, it was how they're handling it.

TheEpicOfTyler

01-07-2006, 08:38 AM

Do you people realize how many jobs if the Playstation brand failed and were discontinued? It seems 90% of the EA audience wants this, you guys must be as horrible as the 'vacationing' Sony execs.

fitbabits

01-07-2006, 09:13 AM

Do you people realize how many jobs if the Playstation brand failed and were discontinued? It seems 90% of the EA audience wants this, you guys must be as horrible as the 'vacationing' Sony execs.
I don't recall anyone here wishing for the PS brand to fail. I am personally appalled that so many people face uncertainty while the Sony execs areoff to Hawaii. And it doesn't matter why they are going there, be it for a vacation or for business - it's a PR disaster.

Kefkataran

01-07-2006, 09:58 AM

I am personally appalled that so many people face uncertainty while the Sony execs areoff to Hawaii. And it doesn't matter why they are going there, be it for a vacation or for business - it's a PR disaster.

Hate to break it to you, but it's really not. Which is to say, it's a PR disaster here on EvAv where there's already thousands of rabid anti-Sony folk willing to take hold of any negative story that comes around. Most other places though? Hardly anyone seems to be taking notice. Especially outside the gaming community. Hell, I can't even find the story on MSNBC's website (although there are plenty of malware stories). And if you look at the original news story that was posted, the Hawaii meeting is barely even mentioned in a small paragraph at the end. The only place I can see any sort of outbreak is right here. That's far from a "PR disaster".

The Letter 3

01-07-2006, 10:05 AM

Sony ninjas killed my father. That's why I hate them.

Kelegacy

01-07-2006, 10:12 AM

Sony ninjas killed my father. That's why I hate them.
Sony molested my little brother! Granted, he is 23 and it was consentual, but that's besides the point.

Paltry

01-07-2006, 10:26 AM

and a rabbi

Kamalot

01-07-2006, 10:33 AM

I don't want Sony to fail.

I want Sony to impress me with awesome products, marketing honesty, top-notch customer service, quality construction and design that focuses on human interaction with their devices, offered at competitive prices.

Sony's attitude seems to fly in the face of my consumer values, therefore I don't want their products.

Reanimated

01-07-2006, 10:59 AM

I think it's fun to watch this company die.

Kefkataran

01-07-2006, 11:09 AM

Sony ninjas killed my father. That's why I hate them.

:(

I think it's fun to watch this company die.

They're probably still a long ways off from dying yet. Glad you're getting amusement out of people losing their jobs en masse though!

mister_slim

01-07-2006, 12:46 PM

:mad: GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRR Fucking Fuckity Fucks. Sorry, but like I said, my family has suffered layoffs, and I can't stand how companies can get away with acting irresponsibly. I'm soo steaming pissed I could beat up Sony's Big dog's and their families.
This interests me. Why are you getting so wound up about layoffs? First, if Sony hadn't been a Japanese company these layoffs would have happened years ago. Second, at least they employed those people for a while. Even after laying off all these people Sony will still be providing massively more people with jobs than MS or Google is.
Sony has a headquarters in lots of different countries. But it's common knowledge that their head execs would be in Japan and North America. As has been discussed earlier in this thread, it's far cheaper to just have the Asia staff go to the west coast of NA (or vice versa) than it is to bring both parties to Hawaii. Nor does it even need to be done at that location, they could have easily met at a cheaper locale entirely.
I don't think you realize how delicate the politics within Sony are right now. I still half believe that Stringer was brought in to do the necessary cuts and take the fall, so the Japanese execs don't look bad.
I definitely understand the sentiments, and certainly there's been a lot of activities reported that make Sony look bad. I just fear those things tend to be reported more readily and with more attention around EvAv than anything else, which is unfortunate.
You know, I don't remember many news posts on the WMF thing.

Kefkataran

01-07-2006, 01:37 PM

You know, I don't remember many news posts on the WMF thing.

As though to prove just what you said... what WMF thing? For some reason that acronym is meaning nothing to me right now.

Reanimated

01-07-2006, 01:51 PM

:(

They're probably still a long ways off from dying yet. Glad you're getting amusement out of people losing their jobs en masse though!

Leaving a sinking ship like Sony is probably the best thing that could happen to those people. They'll land on their feet with a much better company. :cool:

Subbacultcha

01-07-2006, 05:26 PM

Burn, baby burn!

fitbabits

01-07-2006, 05:33 PM

As though to prove just what you said... what WMF thing? For some reason that acronym is meaning nothing to me right now.
I believe it's in reference to the Windows Media File exploit that Microsoft released a patch for already.

For more details (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/81926/microsoft-patches-wmf-vuln.html).

Kefkataran

01-07-2006, 05:43 PM

I believe it's in reference to the Windows Media File exploit that Microsoft released a patch for already.

Aha. Got it. Thanks, Fit.

Balthasar

01-08-2006, 02:21 PM

I believe it's in reference to the Windows Media File exploit that Microsoft released a patch for already.
It is funny, though, that this company so many people here swear by made such a shoddy, unsecure product as Windows XP and they get absolutely no negative attention on that here, even as new exploits are found. But Sony has the DRM issue, and we get a 10 part series on the issue (all the more strange because it was done in an album by a band that very few people have even heard of before). It's kinda pointless talking about how slanted it is here at Evil Avatar. You guys will just keep denying it like it isn't obvious.

Kelegacy

01-08-2006, 02:33 PM

Leaving a sinking ship like Sony is probably the best thing that could happen to those people. They'll land on their feet with a much better company. :cool:
I think it's fun to watch this company die.

I really don't like you. I couldn't quite place the why of it, but thanks for clearing it up for me.

Balthasar

01-08-2006, 02:40 PM

I really don't like you. I couldn't quite place the why of it, but thanks for clearing it up for me.
Don't be offended. He's just a "soldier" on the frontlines of the console "wars" fighting for Microsoft. He's doing what any good Useful Idiot would do. Who cares if 10,000 people lose their jobs? SONY IS GOING DOWN!!!1!!11one

Kefkataran

01-08-2006, 02:51 PM

But Sony has the DRM issue, and we get a 10 part series on the issue (all the more strange because it was done in an album by a band that very few people have even heard of before).

Who was the band? It hadn't occurred to me, but I don't even know. I tried looking it up on Wikipedia but couldn't find the info.

Kelegacy

01-08-2006, 02:52 PM

Don't be offended. He's just a "soldier" on the frontlines of the console "wars" fighting for Microsoft. He's doing what any good Useful Idiot would do. Who cares if 10,000 people lose their jobs? SONY IS GOING DOWN!!!1!!11one

It's people that yearn for the downfall of one of the 3 companies that I don't understand. Will it make our hobby better? Answer: No, just the opposite.

Each are important in their respective roles. I don't want to mess with this pseudo-homeostasis. If you hate companies enough to ignore the good games they put out, then don't purchase and be quiet. I wont call you intelligent, but I wont think you retarded either.

Balthasar

01-08-2006, 04:01 PM

If you hate companies enough to ignore the good games they put out, then don't purchase and be quiet. I wont call you intelligent, but I wont think you retarded either.
I will, however. I don't own a GameCube, but I'm not going to sit here and say sitting down with three other friends and poping in Mario Kart Double Dash isn't insanely fun. The idea of having alligences to hardware makers and not to quality game titles is just assinine to me.

mister_slim

01-08-2006, 04:05 PM

Who was the band? It hadn't occurred to me, but I don't even know. I tried looking it up on Wikipedia but couldn't find the info.
There were a bunch of different bands. here's (http://cp.sonybmg.com/xcp/english/titles.html) the list. There were more than a million cds released (can't remember the exact number).

Balthasar

01-08-2006, 04:08 PM

Who was the band? It hadn't occurred to me, but I don't even know. I tried looking it up on Wikipedia but couldn't find the info.

My point exactly. It wasn't anything of the magnititude of any one of the numerous exploits that have been found in XP. I can't remember the band's name either. Anyone remember that one virus that would give you 30 or 40 seconds before shutting down your system entirely, preventing you from getting on the web to update your virus scanner?

Balthasar

01-08-2006, 04:11 PM

There were a bunch of different bands. here's (http://cp.sonybmg.com/xcp/english/titles.html) the list. There were more than a million cds released (can't remember the exact number).

Yeah, but I just looked at that list, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't one million sold. Compare that to the millions that are affected by all the holes in XP every day. Just last week my company was suggesting we not go on the internet so we don't risk infection by the last exploit.

Royal Fool

01-08-2006, 05:09 PM

Yeah, but I just looked at that list, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't one million sold.
No, but according to Sony BGM it was 52 albums all in all... that's a lot of products containing that stuff. The DRM code wasn't actually discovered (Or at least brought up as news) until it had been on the market for 8 months... roughly three weeks after the news had erupted, Sony stopped producing those CDs with the copy protection. 4 million were manufactured, and around 2.1 million were sold. So yes, you're right - it wasn't one million.

Microsoft and many other security groups classified the DRM protection as intrusive... if you tried uninstalling it, it crippled your PC along with opening it up to numerous vulnerabilities and generally not allowing it to function anymore. Then they released a patch for it, which made things only worse.

Compare that to the millions that are affected by all the holes in XP every day. Just last week my company was suggesting we not go on the internet so we don't risk infection by the last exploit.
Millions every day? I dunno... maybe. I don't have any data on that, but you're right that Windows is a pretty flawed piece of software, powerful as it is. Are you using IE for browsing (internally and externally) at your company?

Your company could just switch to Macs or Linux - I wonder why they haven't done that yet... :rolleyes:

TrackZero

01-08-2006, 05:42 PM

fitbabits

01-08-2006, 05:51 PM

It is funny, though, that this company so many people here swear by made such a shoddy, unsecure product as Windows XP and they get absolutely no negative attention on that here, even as new exploits are found. But Sony has the DRM issue, and we get a 10 part series on the issue (all the more strange because it was done in an album by a band that very few people have even heard of before). It's kinda pointless talking about how slanted it is here at Evil Avatar. You guys will just keep denying it like it isn't obvious.
It's Sunday, which means that I have to be nice to people, so let me just say this:

Windows is flawed, of that there is no doubt. Microsoft have a team of people working to fix the holes as they appear and are proactive in their approach to dealing with security issues.

Sony, on the other hand, spent days (if not weeks) denying that their DRM rootkit was a problem; then released a fix that made the original rootkit look like an antivirus application in that it opened more exploits than it closed. Oh, and let's not forget their infamous 'people are too dumb to know what a rootkit is' statement (and yes, I'm paraphrasing).They then spent more time denying it while people's computers got crippled by the exploits.

See the difference?

Kefkataran

01-08-2006, 06:00 PM

There were a bunch of different bands. here's the list. There were more than a million cds released (can't remember the exact number).

A few on that list I would listen to. Scary. None I've rushed to the stores for, though, thankfully.

But yeah, like everything these days, it must just be that we're biased instead.

I love EvAv as much as anyone here, maybe even more. But it's still painfully evident that a fair number of posters here (including some of the top level guys, unfortunately) will go out of their way to stir up any controversy they can about Sony. What he's talking about isn't the fact that no one's commenting about them in this thread, but that no one is at all around here. I know I, for one, am not saying people SHOULD be posting about or freaking out about every teensy Microsoft problem there is. I'm just saying they definitely do with Sony, which is sad and unfortunate and more than a little silly.

See the difference?

Definitely do here, and I think the scandal over the DRM thing was well within range of ordinary, to be expected, etc. It was a stupid, terrible thing. No doubt about that. But threads lik this one and many others involving Sony tend to feature people blowing up over much smaller things that they're refusing to comprehend in any accurate way because of their pre-determined feelings towards Sony.

Balthasar

01-08-2006, 06:51 PM

Well, from what I recall, Microsoft hasn't exploited my box in the recent past...
Sony's intention wasn't to "exploit" your box anymore than Microsoft tries to when they sell you a $100 piece of software that has so many vulnerabilities they've been releasing patches for four years. They were trying to protect their music. Do I like music "protection" such as that? Of course not. And of course their idea was bone-headed. But if you seriously think their intention was to expose to viruses the few hundred people that actually bought those CD's, you're lost.

...then decided to figure out how to lay off 10,000 employees while in Hawaii.
You think Sony execs fire people for fun? Come on now, in a post where you're trying to defend the blatant biased nature of this site, you'd be better served by not making such blind statements. And for the record--regarding this overreaction to the fact that they're meeting in Hawaii--you guys have to remember they are undergoing a restructuring which is going to affect corporate offices in the U.S. and Japan. It makes a lot of sense that they would want to meet on a more neutral ground. That their location should be one where they can relax during a high-stress situation also makes a lot of sense. As someone suggested in (I assume) a tongue-in-cheek manner, should they have meet in Alaska instead? The amount of money they spend flying people to Hawaii is ridiculous for you guys to be worrying about. You guys act like you're exposed to the executive bankroll of each major company out there to scrutinize. Companies hold meetings in Las Vegas all the time. You think the reasons for the meetings are always going to be pleasant? Give me a break.

It must just be that we're biased.
Indeed. Sad but true.

Balthasar

01-08-2006, 07:08 PM

I love EvAv as much as anyone here, maybe even more. But it's still painfully evident that a fair number of posters here (including some of the top level guys, unfortunately) will go out of their way to stir up any controversy they can about Sony...I know I, for one, am not saying people SHOULD be posting about or freaking out about every teensy Microsoft problem there is. I'm just saying they definitely do with Sony, which is sad and unfortunate and more than a little silly.
That is precisely what I am saying. This isn't even particularly interesting news. I'm sorry all these people are going to lose their jobs, but it's not worth this sort of response. This is a gaming messageboard, not a business/micro economics website. I highly doubt anyone here actually understands the real-world implications of this beyond "Sony will cut X number of products and have 10,000 less employees."

Definitely do here, and I think the scandal over the DRM thing was well within range of ordinary, to be expected, etc. It was a stupid, terrible thing. No doubt about that. But threads lik this one and many others involving Sony tend to feature people blowing up over much smaller things that they're refusing to comprehend in any accurate way because of their pre-determined feelings towards Sony.
Thank you. My feelings exactly. Sony is not the only company in the history of Man (or presently) to make a bad decision, but you wouldn't know it by reading this site. If the PS3 had limited backward compatibility, people would be panning it for being "incomplete" or "broken," but with the 360's BC issues, it's merely "a fact of life." And forget about the Nintendo stuff. God forbid the Revolution turns out to be a good idea that legitimately pushes gaming into a new generation (instead of this marketing-manufactored so-called next generation of gaming that looks a lot like the last/current one, with higher resolutions). I guess then this site would just implode on itself.

Citizen Philip

01-08-2006, 08:48 PM

EvAv is becoming more like a jumping board for bashing Sony and ocassionally other gaming news. The proof is in the pudding, as soon as a negative Sony post comes up: the complaining, the speculation, etc piles up so fast it outstripes actual GAMING NEWS by multiple pages. The regular crowd comes here to bash Sony, talk about movies and a few comments about games.

i remeber originally coming here for gaming news, which I find more frequently at Blues. It's been so lopsided that when someone posts something NOT BAD about Sony, no one responds because they don't know how to.

Makes me annoyed. because I liked reading/adding comments originally.

SMES

01-08-2006, 08:53 PM

a restructuring which is going to affect corporate offices in the U.S. and Japan. It makes a lot of sense that they would want to meet on a more neutral ground.

Because US soil is 'neutral' between the US and Japan? ;)

Just kidding.

The comment about there being a ton of Japanese tourists in Hawaii notwithstanding, of course.

SMES

01-08-2006, 08:56 PM

as soon as a negative Sony post comes up: the complaining, the speculation, etc piles up so fast

True, but I'm dismayed at the negative attitudes in general. There should be a disclaimer before every post that we're just talking about games. Then, maybe a short quicktime movie of parents at their 9 year old kids soccer games fighting in the bleachers to remind us that arguing about games is idiotic.

Balthasar

01-08-2006, 09:25 PM

Because US soil is 'neutral' between the US and Japan? ;)

Just kidding.

The comment about there being a ton of Japanese tourists in Hawaii notwithstanding, of course.
Man, I'd love to visit Hawaii sometime.

Kefkataran

01-08-2006, 10:06 PM

True, but I'm dismayed at the negative attitudes in general. There should be a disclaimer before every post that we're just talking about games. Then, maybe a short quicktime movie of parents at their 9 year old kids soccer games fighting in the bleachers to remind us that arguing about games is idiotic.

Ha! I love it. I've been combatting this silly supposed iteration of the EvAv 'attitude' since I came here. In fact, I think Kelegacy (think it was him) once called me the den mother of Evil Avatar. But yeah, some people just take stuff about games too seriously and get waaaay too upset. People need to chill and stop shouting doom long enough to realize that we live in way good times for gaming and culture in general.

TrackZero

01-09-2006, 01:55 AM

Sony's intention wasn't to "exploit" your box anymore than Microsoft tries to when they sell you a $100 piece of software that has so many vulnerabilities they've been releasing patches for four years. They were trying to protect their music. Do I like music "protection" such as that? Of course not. And of course their idea was bone-headed. But if you seriously think their intention was to expose to viruses the few hundred people that actually bought those CD's, you're lost.

Yes, and we're all on moral highground there, because you know the percentage of people that actually pay for windows on the consumer level is insanely low. Any software, ANY software should be being continually patched in production as exploits are being addressed (especially when it's the number one consumer operating system in the world), to not do so is pure foolishness. But once again, this isn't about Microsoft at all, so don't change the subject.

Sony's CD protection was more than boneheaded, it was a direct violation of my system security and was coded to be as such. The only part Sony's sorry about is being caught.

You think Sony execs fire people for fun? Come on now, in a post where you're trying to defend the blatant biased nature of this site, you'd be better served by not making such blind statements. And for the record--regarding this overreaction to the fact that they're meeting in Hawaii--you guys have to remember they are undergoing a restructuring which is going to affect corporate offices in the U.S. and Japan. It makes a lot of sense that they would want to meet on a more neutral ground. That their location should be one where they can relax during a high-stress situation also makes a lot of sense. As someone suggested in (I assume) a tongue-in-cheek manner, should they have meet in Alaska instead? The amount of money they spend flying people to Hawaii is ridiculous for you guys to be worrying about. You guys act like you're exposed to the executive bankroll of each major company out there to scrutinize. Companies hold meetings in Las Vegas all the time. You think the reasons for the meetings are always going to be pleasant? Give me a break.

No, I think execs like to make money, lots and lots of it. If it means laying people off, they aren't shedding a tear, nor should they, that's fine. We've already gone over this in the thread, but you seem to be ignoring that. It's the crass way in which they're going about deciding on the layoffs that bothered most people. Nor do I think the cost of going to Hawaii specifically is a point of contention. It's the knowledge that some exec is going to Hawaii to chill out and decide who gets let go. It's not exactly sending a nice message to the employees who work for the company, that while the proverbial sword of Damocles is swung over their head, the guy holding the blade is kicking back in the sun. I know logically it's not that bad of a thing, but from an outside perspective, it's dirty.

Anyways, it's not that big of a deal to get worked up over. I just think it's shit and just a further reason why Sony can suck my balls. Some other people on here seem to agree. Your defense of the Sony executives is touching, but it isn't about to change the way I feel about it.

TrackZero

01-09-2006, 01:58 AM

Kefkataran

01-09-2006, 02:17 AM

It's the knowledge that some exec is going to Hawaii to chill out and decide who gets let go. It's not exactly sending a nice message to the employees who work for the company, that while the proverbial sword of Damocles is swung over their head, the guy holding the blade is kicking back in the sun. I know logically it's not that bad of a thing, but from an outside perspective, it's dirty.

See, but the problem we're having is that everyone on this thread seems to be assuming this is a vacation. Maybe it is. But there's no way to know that. I see no reason to assume they'll be 'kicking back in the sun' during their trip, especially since we know they have an office there and will probably be very busy discussing stuff, etc. People are way too ready to jump to conclusions about anything involving Sony.

Your defense of the Sony executives is touching, but it isn't about to change the way I feel about it.

I doubt any one on here feels much for any Sony execs. It's more that some of us are a little disgusted at how willing people are to say shit like 'Sony can suck my balls' at the purported actions of Sony execs while downplaying anything from, say, Microsoft execs. No one's opinions are going to get changed, but we need to keep bitching about this desperately if we want to even attempt to make the discussion here a little more balanced.

Player 1

01-09-2006, 03:24 AM

See, but the problem we're having is that everyone on this thread seems to be assuming this is a vacation. Maybe it is. But there's no way to know that.

But Track_Zero and others don't care about that. They've got their rumour, they've made their assumptions, they've got their villain and they're going to boo and hiss and jeer inspite of any common sense you throw at them. Their mind is made up. Facts won't change that. Track_Zero clearly sees a fat Sony exec drinking a cocktail on a beach whilst decimating 10,000 jobs of people he thinks should be employed. He's not interested in whatever the truth may be, he prefers his fiction.

Welcome to Evil Avatar, where alchemy is an everyday occurence: we can turn rumour into solid gold fact to base our hate campaigns on!

I doubt any one on here feels much for any Sony execs. It's more that some of us are a little disgusted at how willing people are to say shit like 'Sony can suck my balls' at the purported actions of Sony execs while downplaying anything from, say, Microsoft execs. No one's opinions are going to get changed, but we need to keep bitching about this desperately if we want to even attempt to make the discussion here a little more balanced.

It's all in the opinion, not the fact. If a company that's universally adored by your general gaming public were to do the same?... ...well, I'm sure we'd see reasonable excuses about 'the necessities to survive in today's cut-throat industry' and other such sympathetic statements.

TrackZero

01-09-2006, 03:41 AM

But Track_Zero and others don't care about that. They've got their rumour, they've made their assumptions, they've got their villain and they're going to boo and hiss and jeer inspite of any common sense you throw at them. Their mind is made up. Facts won't change that. Track_Zero clearly sees a fat Sony exec drinking a cocktail on a beach whilst decimating 10,000 jobs of people he thinks should be employed. He's not interested in whatever the truth may be, he prefers his fiction.

Welcome to Evil Avatar, where alchemy is an everyday occurence: we can turn rumour into solid gold fact to base our hate campaigns on!

It's all in the opinion, not the fact. If a company that's universally adored by your general gaming public were to do the same?... ...well, I'm sure we'd see reasonable excuses about 'the necessities to survive in today's cut-throat industry' and other such sympathetic statements.

If Nintendo were to lay of 10,000 employees and then go to Hawaii to discuss how to do it? Yeah, that'd piss me off too.

TrackZero

01-09-2006, 03:50 AM

I doubt any one on here feels much for any Sony execs. It's more that some of us are a little disgusted at how willing people are to say shit like 'Sony can suck my balls' at the purported actions of Sony execs while downplaying anything from, say, Microsoft execs. No one's opinions are going to get changed, but we need to keep bitching about this desperately if we want to even attempt to make the discussion here a little more balanced.

Ah, well see the "Sony suck my balls" stems more from the rootkit mess, the layoff decisions in Hawaii just pushed it over the top for me to make that comment.

But the part that bothers me is that those of you thinking this is a one-way street. If this article were posted for Microsoft or Nintendo execs doing the exact same thing, my feelings would be the same. It so happens this is Sony doing it though, so I made my thoughts known, which these days apparently constitutes Sony-bashing.

Maybe I should just keep from posting in any more Sony threads until the PS3 comes out and people feel a little more secure about things. As I think much of this "anti-Sony" viewpoint is more perception because Sony fans are in the middle of watching one platform end and another begin and feel on some kind of weak ground as of late.

I try to be critical in my views of all the companies out there, it just so happens that lately Sony's been the ones with the bad press. Personally I'm immensely statisfied with the PS2 and I look forward to seeing if the PS3 delivers us some kickass games down the road. I just wish Sony would get on the ball and start showing off more of what they've got coming down the pipe (c'mon E3!).

bean19

01-09-2006, 04:22 AM

It is funny, though, that this company so many people here swear by made such a shoddy, unsecure product as Windows XP and they get absolutely no negative attention on that here, even as new exploits are found. But Sony has the DRM issue, and we get a 10 part series on the issue (all the more strange because it was done in an album by a band that very few people have even heard of before). It's kinda pointless talking about how slanted it is here at Evil Avatar. You guys will just keep denying it like it isn't obvious.

The difference is that Windows XP's security holes are old news, but the Sony DRM is new. The reason it got so much coverage is that there was a lot of information on the story: spyware, causes security problems, class action suit, WoW cheats.

The fact is that Evil Avatar reports the news for every company. It isn't pick or choose. . . it's ebb and flow. Sometimes one big corporation is screwing up and sometimes it is the other.

What I don't understand is how fanboys of Microsoft OR Sony can look at these bad news articles and see them as slant instead of merely reporting the facts? Is this story erroneous or a figment of EvAv's imagination? The answer is no.

EvAv reports what news is out there, when it is out there. Also, I can think of about 10 unfavorable stories written about Microsoft's Japanese release. Every company is fair game at EvAv.

Balthasar

01-09-2006, 06:08 AM

Yes, and we're all on moral highground there, because you know the percentage of people that actually pay for windows on the consumer level is insanely low. Any software, ANY software should be being continually patched in production as exploits are being addressed (especially when it's the number one consumer operating system in the world), to not do so is pure foolishness. But once again, this isn't about Microsoft at all, so don't change the subject.
Subject was changed long ago, buddy. The idea that the number of people paying for Windows being "insanely low" is completely irrational. You can't assume because you and your friends don't pay for your software that other people don't. Microsoft didn't just find a chest burried under a big X with a few billion in it, you know.

Also, I don't see OSX getting patched every month. It is a fact that Windows XP is particularly vulnerable to attack.

Sony's CD protection was more than boneheaded, it was a direct violation of my system security and was coded to be as such. The only part Sony's sorry about is being caught.
No, it's coding suggest they value the security of their copyrights over the security of your system. That a company that depends so much on various intellectual properties would think like that in this day and age should not be in any way shocking. Again: Do I agree with it or like it? Absolutely not. My point is not that I don't think it should have never been posted about. My point is the particularly rabid way in which many posters here latch onto something like that while ignoring the security threats their system is exposed to every goddamned day.

It's the knowledge that some exec is going to Hawaii to chill out and decide who gets let go. It's not exactly sending a nice message to the employees who work for the company, that while the proverbial sword of Damocles is swung over their head, the guy holding the blade is kicking back in the sun. I know logically it's not that bad of a thing, but from an outside perspective, it's dirty.
I don't care what it looks like from an uninformed perspective. This story isn't gaming news, period.

Your defense of the Sony executives is touching, but it isn't about to change the way I feel about it.
I'm not defending Sony so much as I am attacking the obvious bloodlust for them around here. I'm not naive enough to think the loyalty I bestow on a company means anything more to them than a dollar amount. Wish you guys would realize the same.

AniAko

01-09-2006, 06:35 AM

Holy shit! Has it already been announced that Sony are exclusively laying off US staff?

Allow me to educate you, Inevitable Winter: America is NOT the world. Your post borders on bigotry and is incredibly vulgar.

Those are song lyrics like I said. They were written about a local problem, I can't help that. I refered to they lyrics because the local problem it addresses is a global issue as well. IT'S a song and shouldn't be taken literally anyways.

Bigotry and vulgarity. Your judgement of some text I posted doesn't apply to my values. You don't know me, you only know my poor writing skills you attack. But then again many people are prejudice against Americans and our values.

How about you and everyone else stops jumping the fucking gun and stops acting out assumptions in your head and then bitching about shit that hasn't even happened?

Jeez. I thought you guys had learned your lessons about taking a rumour to extremes. Guess I was wrong on that one, huh?

That's cute - you don't mind it that other families should suffer, so long as the ones you like are ok? That's a real decent attitude you got there.

And thanks for the namecheck - only earlier today I was saying how I don't even need to be in a topic for people to bitch about me - and there you go proving me right. Again.

And I don't love Sony (but it's so nice to be judged by someone who clearly can only see things in shades of black and white and assumes a "if you don't hate them then you must love them" stance) , I just hate this ridiculous company love/hate bullshit this culture demonstrates. You have your hate campaign and you'll bitch till the cows come home (and then some) but you won't check facts and you won't acknowledge anything that doesn't add fuel to your fire.

This entire attitude is FUCKING DUMB and it's destroying the credibility of this culture. That pisses me off more than anything else. :mad:

I am disappointed in Sony's decision, but as a professional I understand the many reasons why downsizing occurs. My flamboyant posts were mearly to see if I could get under your skin, like you do to so many others. Looks like I succeeded.

Standing on top of the forums scrutinizing posts because you refuse to use a shred of reasoning to fill in obvious holes in statements and defying to humor views from other angles makes your posts more ignorant than those posters you criticize.

I made you dance like a puppet with a slight change in online persona.

Balthasar

01-09-2006, 06:36 AM

The difference is that Windows XP's security holes are old news, but the Sony DRM is new.
It's not old news. It's a continuing saga. By the way the DRM issue was handled here, we should be at part 300 of the XP issues. It's not like XP's security is being compromised the same exact way every time.

The reason it got so much coverage is that there was a lot of information on the story: spyware, causes security problems, class action suit, WoW cheats.
Again, I'm not saying it should not have been reported on. But it arguably affects EA readers far less than all the issues Windows and Explorer foist on its users. The attacks levied are simply not proportional in the slightest.

What I don't understand is how fanboys of Microsoft OR Sony can look at these bad news articles and see them as slant instead of merely reporting the facts? Is this story erroneous or a figment of EvAv's imagination? The answer is no.
That's nonsense. What about the comments in this thread resemble fact? Let's not pretend this is the New York Times here.

Also, I can think of about 10 unfavorable stories written about Microsoft's Japanese release. Every company is fair game at EvAv.
Yeah, and the reaction to Microsoft falling on their face in Japan was "Well they're just jingoistic isolationists who refuse to accept Western products, no matter how superior!" Give me a break.

TrackZero

01-09-2006, 07:17 AM

I'm not defending Sony so much as I am attacking the obvious bloodlust for them around here. I'm not naive enough to think the loyalty I bestow on a company means anything more to them than a dollar amount. Wish you guys would realize the same.

Cutting out all the smack, I'm agreeing with you on this. You'll note I thought people should take a chill pill on this (check a few posts back), saying that Sony can suck my balls does not equate to bloodlust. If it was Bloodlust, I'd be threatening some form of violence, instead of saying that Sony needs to do more to please me (like, by sucking my balls).

TrackZero

01-09-2006, 07:19 AM

I made you dance like a puppet with a slight change in online persona.

Oh Ani, you sly fox. If only I could be so subtle.

Balthasar

01-09-2006, 07:22 AM

I don't recall anyone here wishing for the PS brand to fail.
Either you are being intentionally dishonest, or else you have managed to miss the numerous posts in this thread and others that hold such gems as "I love seeing this company go down" and other such nonsense.

fitbabits

01-09-2006, 07:29 AM

Either you are being intentionally dishonest, or else you have managed to miss the numerous posts in this thread and others that hold such gems as "I love seeing this company go down" and other such nonsense.
Sorry, let me fully explain. My statement was in reference to the staff at EA, not the members. Apologies for the confusion.

Player 1

01-09-2006, 07:29 AM

I made you dance like a puppet with a slight change in online persona.

Well, aren't we the cunning reverse-psychologist!

What a shame it took you three days to think up that piece of backpeddling. It makes your effort totally transparent.

Additionally, my efforts are not to deliberately rile people or get under their skin, it is to play devil's advocate and show the equally valid flipside of the argument. Too many people simply take their first impression as the only one it could be without even firing one synapse. (Unless I agree in the first place) I usually see the other side.

I think - to make up the deficit of thought that goes on around here.

Balthasar

01-09-2006, 07:33 AM

Cutting out all the smack, I'm agreeing with you on this. You'll note I thought people should take a chill pill on this (check a few posts back), saying that Sony can suck my balls does not equate to bloodlust. If it was Bloodlust, I'd be threatening some form of violence, instead of saying that Sony needs to do more to please me (like, by sucking my balls).
"Bloodlust" cannot be taken litterally here to mean the physical letting of blood, as a company does not have a tangible body. In this case, it means the insatiable desire to see harm or ultimate demise fall on the company. When I say "you guys," I am only refering to those that feel/behave in this manner. I wasn't smack-talking, though if you want to tell me there aren't a lot of people here who are "loyal" to one of the the big three, then I guess it would be.

Balthasar

01-09-2006, 07:35 AM

Sorry, let me fully explain. My statement was in reference to the staff at EA, not the members. Apologies for the confusion.
That would be a different story, then. While I certainly have strong suspecions about certain biases (I have little doubt Evil Avatar himself dislikes Nintendo and enjoys seeing them lose market share), I can't say I've ever read a post from one of you guys explicitly wishing for one of the big three to fail.

fitbabits

01-09-2006, 07:36 AM

Additionally, my efforts are not to deliberately rile people or get under their skin, it is to play devil's advocate and show the equally valid flipside of the argument.
But you don't play devil's advocate because you often come down on one side of an arguement and stick steadfastly to it, often at the expense of your obvious historical knowledge.

Are you saying you don't really believe in what you are arguing about and that you're just testing the voracity and legitimacy of any one person's claims or opinions? Or are you debating just for the sake of debating? Because those two definitions are what being a devil's advocate is all about.

fitbabits

01-09-2006, 07:40 AM

That would be a different story, then. While I certainly have strong suspecions about certain biases (I have little doubt Evil Avatar himself dislikes Nintendo and enjoys seeing them lose market share), I can't say I've ever read a post from one of you guys explicitly wishing for one of the big three to fail.
Yeah, I certainly have my preferences (if you hadn't noticed), but I would never wish absolute destruction to any of the big three. I may be ticked off at Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo, but that's all it is.

bapenguin

01-09-2006, 07:47 AM

I think - to make up the deficit of thought that goes on around here.

The funny thing about Player 1 is while he claims Evil Avatar (he LOVES to generalize and groups us together as a whole) is biased towards one thing, he is hypocritical and completely biased the other way and somehow that makes it right.

Myself, I don't want Sony or EA or any of the companies to go bankrupt or not exist. I do want them to fail one generation to a get a dose of reality and start making decent products.

fitbabits

01-09-2006, 07:52 AM

I think - to make up the deficit of thought that goes on around here.
And the subtext here, everyone, is that Player 1 is always right and everyone else is wrong - but we're too stupid to know that for ourselves.

I have no beef with you, Player 1, but the above comment is sheer arrogance and very insulting. Ignorance and arrogance are part of the same unlikeable package where character traits are concerned.

AniAko

01-09-2006, 08:02 AM

Well, aren't we the cunning reverse-psychologist!

What a shame it took you three days to think up that piece of backpeddling. It makes your effort totally transparent.

I never post on weekends, I do otherthings than EvilAvatar. I read my email monday and respond to everything from the weekend posts. But nice try on trying to judge me again, your efforts are outstanding.

Additionally, my efforts are not to deliberately rile people or get under their skin, it is to play devil's advocate and show the equally valid flipside of the argument. Too many people simply take their first impression as the only one it could be without even firing one synapse. (Unless I agree in the first place) I usually see the other side.

I think - to make up the deficit of thought that goes on around here.

And we rebuttal to ensure your comments, correct as most of yours are, on poster's logic, grammar, and position in statments aren't taken as a token of the the validity of your message. Palor tricks; smoke and mirrors.

Additionally, my efforts are not to deliberately rile people or get under their skin, it is to play devil's advocate and show the equally valid flipside of the argument....

...(Unless I agree in the first place) I usually see the other side.

A devil's advocate looks at the flip side of all accounts, not where it doesn't coincide with his or her opinions. Hiding behind that definition "when you want to" is a cop out for trying to justify your opinions and criticisms as a matter of role playing thus abandoning any responsibility of your comments. You're not a devil's advocate, you're claiming to be one while spinning your own web of propaganda. That's just as bad, if not worse than the said "ignorance" that caused you to respond.

I also noticed you seem to have forgotten the statement you made about my bigotry and vulgarity. You made it, but when I denied it you didn't back it up, mearly bounced to the EvAv community as a whole being "thought-less". Who's back-peddling now? It's easy to call someone a name, but if it's unjustified or dis-proven, aren't your accusasions just as "thought-less"?

bean19

01-09-2006, 08:14 AM

Yeah, and the reaction to Microsoft falling on their face in Japan was "Well they're just jingoistic isolationists who refuse to accept Western products, no matter how superior!" Give me a break.

I think that might be the problem Balthasar. I think you hear opinions contrary to your own loudest. This is a discussion forum, so there are going to be opinions across the spectrum.

For instance, in that thread, I said that I think the reason is that the Japanese are brand loyal. . . not isolationist. The same way that Sony fans here are brand loyal. They've been delivered the most and thus more of the best games on that system for two successive generations. I also said that I think a large reason for the poor sales is that Microsoft has POOR Japanese branding. They were the box no one bought in the last generation and they had fewer games that appealled to the Japanese market than even Nintendo (who make very few games for any market).

I also mentioned that they released with only 6 games, and none of them appeal to the Japanese market except Ridge Racer.

The point is, there is a spectrum of opinion and I don't think you should judge EvAv, or it's readers, based on the part of the spectrum that you disagree with most. There are obviously plenty of people who are moderate or even extreme oppossite spectrum on each of the issues.

Citizen Philip

01-09-2006, 08:26 AM

The only thing I would add is: Why do some posters who already claim indifference feel the need to defend anything? I don't particuarly care for any of the big 3 console providers, but more often then not one particular provider gets perpetually slammed and another given a very light touch.

Or it is not important? The mudslinging hatefests generate more hits on the site, so lets keep doing it.

AniAko

01-09-2006, 08:31 AM

Player 1

01-09-2006, 08:49 AM

I have no beef with you, Player 1, but the above comment is sheer arrogance and very insulting. Ignorance and arrogance are part of the same unlikeable package where character traits are concerned.

So thoughtless, narrow minged, ignorant, insulting hate-mongering are character traits that should be admired then? Those appear to be the Evil Avatar approved alternatives to my rhetoric.

A good half of the news (re)posted on this site is simply there to create friction and cause arguments. The "...with attitude" branding of all comments in the news ensures total bias in each and every news topic. Don't, for one minute, attempt to claim some sort of moral high ground.

And, for everyone else, don't turn this into ANOTHER Player 1 with-hunt. I'm sick and tired of the whole "We won't accept anything he says until he proves every last point and justifies his character". No other person get's the full cross-examination treatment like I consistently get on Evil Avatar.

But, then again, no other person speaks out against riding on such stupid, populist, biased, company-bashing bandwagons as much as I do.

Is Evil Avatar about free speech? Certainly - so long as you say what the rest of the gang likes to hear or, if not, you can prove yourself in some kangaroo court.

AniAko

01-09-2006, 09:15 AM

So thoughtless, insulting hate-mongering are character traits that should be admired then?

Please, don't make me laugh.

And, for everyone else, don't turn this into ANOTHER Player 1 with-hunt. I'm sick and tired of the whole "We won't accept anything he says until he proves every last point and justifies his character". No other person get's the full cross-examination treatment like I consistently get on Evil Avatar.

But cross-fire from you on someone's nearsighted-ness on a subject is totally acceptable? I commend people for standing up what they believe in, whether they be right or wrong. They under-go your your "degrading" scrutiny, and stand up for what they believe in, no matter how dumb you make them look.

You on the other hand have not yet responded to any of the claims on your character treating this community as "too low of stature" to question your it. You have not admitted nor denied the claims. I believe us "groundlings" call that being a coward, but I could be wrong.

And, for everyone else, don't turn this into ANOTHER Player 1 with-hunt.

Instead of making fun of your obvious mistake like you would, I'll assume you meant witch-hunt. I could deduct from your typo, considering it is correct later in your post, that you are not taking the time to review your submission, due to a heat of anger or frustration that is causing you to type fast. But I won't be prejudice, and assume it was an honest mistake.

My writing sucks, but if you wish, you can submit your posts to me for review. I'd be happy to correct grammatical errors, so no one makes an ass out of you for an apparent mistake. I don't want anyone getting cheap shots on you.

But, then again, no other person speaks out against riding on such stupid, populist, biased, company-bashing bandwagons as much as I do.

No you're just so full of yourself, you refuse to see other's standing up for what they believe in.

Is Evil Avatar about free speech? Certainly - so long as you say what the rest of the gang likes to hear or, if not, you can prove yourself in some kangaroo court.

Hey dumbass, you ARE getting to say what you want. No one is censoring you. Free Speech doesn't protect you from people lashing out for what you have to say. That's their freedom too. That's one of the admirable aspects of people who exercise their rights to free speech, over-coming the status quo, and having their views being heard.

bean19

01-09-2006, 09:54 AM

Is Evil Avatar about free speech? Certainly - so long as you say what the rest of the gang likes to hear or, if not, you can prove yourself in some kangaroo court.

I like Evil Avatar BECAUSE it has people from all sides of the spectrum and your POINTS are part of that.

However, I don't really enjoy the content-free flame wars or the victim-playing. You shouldn't start fights or join fights and then complain about the fighting.

But do please keep posting. I won't always agree with you, but occassionally you have added facts or clarified points with information. That is, when you are discussing the topic and not flaming the site.

Player 1

01-09-2006, 10:25 AM

You on the other hand have not yet responded to any of the claims on your character treating this community as "too low of stature" to question your it. You have not admitted nor denied the claims. I believe us "groundlings" call that being a coward, but I could be wrong.

I've never explicitly stated this community as "too low of stature" - on the contrary, I've gone on record and said it is better than many others - just not as peerless as it likes to think it is.

Please note my comment about a kangaroo court and the text I have highlighted in green. Do you think I am answerable to your cross examination about "claims on my character". Am I being tried for a crime?

Dear me, and some say I take things too seriously..

Instead of making fun of your obvious mistake like you would, I'll assume you meant witch-hunt. I could deduct from your typo, considering it is correct later in your post, that you are not taking the time to review your submission, due to a heat of anger or frustration that is causing you to type fast. But I won't be prejudice, and assume it was an honest mistake.

My writing sucks, but if you wish, you can submit your posts to me for review. I'd be happy to correct grammatical errors, so no one makes an ass out of you for an apparent mistake. I don't want anyone getting cheap shots on you.

Your paragraph amounts to "instead of making fun of your typo, I'll make fun of your typo".

How fucking big of you! Please pull up any post of mine where I stoop to such obscenely childish levels as to criticise someone for the quality of the typing, language or grammar. You're playing at a stunningly immature level, why don't you grow up?

No you're just so full of yourself, you refuse to see other's standing up for what they believe in.

I know bandwagonning when I see it. If you believe you're speaking for what you believe in you do a very poor job of making your own bleating stand out against the rest of the herd. Especially with the shoddy reasoning you provide.

Hey dumbass, you ARE getting to say what you want. No one is censoring you.

Except attempts to discredit my character are littered after everything I say (and, in increasing cases, BEFORE I say anything). You're merely trying to excuse such behaviour on a technicality.

If you check, you'll see I *never* enter a thread and start badmouthing another poster with my opening post. I may comment on the tone of the community or give my perspective on the news posting. However, in most cases the insults will start being directed at me for saying what I think, at which point I *will* respond to the content in those comments (after all, when I don't respond to them I am simply challenged further - as you so conveniently demonstrate at the top of this post).

Most of the feedback I'm given is not about what I say but personal attacks on my character. This is the weakest form of response (along with playing Mr. Spellcheck) that it's possible to give - it distracts from what's been said and directs attention to the person, not the words. It is not a credible contribution to any debate...

...you only seem to notice that when you find yourself on the receiving end. And yet, you never seem to learn.

AniAko

01-09-2006, 10:44 AM

I've never explicitly stated this community as "too low of stature" - on the contrary, I've gone on record and said it is better than many others - just not as peerless as it likes to think it is.

Please note my comment about a kangaroo court and the text I have highlighted in green. Do you think I am answerable to your cross examination about "claims on my character". Am I being tried for a crime?

Dear me, and some say I take things too seriously..

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...you only seem to notice that when you find yourself on the receiving end. And yet, you never seem to learn.

Dance my puppet DANCE!!!!!! You're barking up the wrong tree. If you took some time to notice what YOU are doing and saying, instead of what others are saying and doing, you would realize what's happening.

bapenguin

01-09-2006, 10:57 AM

If you check, you'll see I *never* enter a thread and start badmouthing another poster with my opening post. I may comment on the tone of the community or give my perspective on the news posting. However, in most cases the insults will start being directed at me for saying what I think, at which point I *will* respond to the content in those comments (after all, when I don't respond to them I am simply challenged further - as you so conveniently demonstrate at the top of this post).

By generalizing and attacking Evil Avatar (the community) you ARE attacking another poster because 9 times out of 10 you open up with "Oh how typical of Evil Avatar, blah blah blah" then post a quote from someone, then turn and trash it. This is how you always post, and like I said in another thread, every time you post it is an attack on someone.

This shit is getting old, this thread is getting old, this argument is getting old. Please everyone get it back on topic.