PC Gaming's Not Dead Yet

[Evil Avatar]

Next Generation has posted a new article, 2005: PC Gaming's Not Dead Yet (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1907&Itemid=2) with PC Gamer's Daniel Morris looking at some of 2005's PC gaming trends and successes.

The sad part is that they point at an absurdly small number of titles as the "successes" of 2005. When you can sum up 2005's PC gaming by saying Battlefield 2 and F.E.A.R., it is hard to hold a straight face and still say that the PC gaming isn't dead.

[Sirod]

" it is hard to hold a straight face and still say that the PC gaming isn't dead."

Funny. I never ran out of things to play all year, and I could probably count the number of times I powered up my PS2 this year on one hand.

[swiftdraw]

The day PC gaming dies is the day I quit gaming. I really can't get into console games outside of some NES and SNES ones.

[WastelandDan]

I've pretty much given up on PC gaming completely. In total I've dropped maybe 600 dollars on my Xbox 360 and accessories/games, which is around the opening price for a new-generation pc video card at the cusp of when it's released. The last time I upgraded my system to play games was for HL2 and it ran me around 1000 dollars for the cpu, motherboard, ram, hard drives, fans and case and I didn't even upgrade to a new video card from my 9700 pro or my sound card.

I used to only play pc games and I essentially ignored console gaming. Now aside from WoW I pretty much don't use my pc at all to play games. It's just not worth the cost for something that can so easily go wrong. If my 360 breaks then I'll use my warranty to get a new one. I built my computer from scratch; if it breaks I'm up shit creek.

I'm about to graduate from college, I don't have the disposable income that I did when I was in high school and I can't justify paying so much for equipment for games that will not only look better on a newer console but run without me having to screw around with my settings, update my drivers, run firewalls and adaware, and in the end will most likely be ported over anyway. I can't speak for anyone else but for me pc gaming is essentially over. It's just too much of a pain in the ass.

[DeadPixel]

It will never die. Having full control of your system, hardware, OS, tweaks, mods, settings, etc. may seems like a drag to many console gamers, but to PC gamers it is the reaason of choice.

Comparing gaming on the couch vs gaming at your computer desk is not really comparing consoles vs systems. I can play my PC games on my TV and I've had my XBOX hooked up to my PC monitor through a VGA adapter which results in 640p for ages.

Now comparing the stability and compatibility issues is something more valid. If I were not a PC power user, I would probably just want to stick with the consoles only. Nothing beats popping a CD in and instantly playing a game. No installs, no tweaks, no driver issues.... Consoles resemble interactive movies to me.

[Zurik]

Don't worry, console games are getting lazier. I'm sure we'll be downloading patches on xbox live soon enough.

[Dag-Sabot]

When you can sum up 2005's PC gaming by saying Battlefield 2 and F.E.A.R., it is hard to hold a straight face and still say that the PC gaming isn't dead.
..err in all fairness he mentioned far more than those two titles. As for someone who switched to pc gaming I find the pc has more quality to offer while moding just adds more depth and replayability. Whereas consoles seem to have wave upon wave of over-hyped disposable and forgettable offerings. Remember halo 2?
Its funny.. whenever a new console comes out everyone predicts the demise of PC gaming....Ninja Please!
My PC blows away anything the 360 can port out.

[midrael]

Actually, the more that I think about it, the more I realize that almost all the games that interest me come out on the PC and not for consoles. I tend to play RPGs and Adventure type games on consoles, but I use the PC for my tactical games, MMO, more RPGs, sim-style games, etc.

The game I really want to try out right at the moment is The Movies which is PC only.

[Schnoogs]

I played more PC games this year than last.

Yeah it's dead all right...rolls eyes.

[president_fred]

it is hard to hold a straight face and still say that the PC gaming isn't dead.[/i]
I think most regulars know your opinion on this (and the DS) issue so I am not going to try and change your mind. There will always be a group of people that play games on PC as long as it gets exclusive titles and has the DIY aspect. I just think consoles and PC's are getting so similiar (high resolution screens and monitors, internet access, patches, hard drives etc) so I have always considered the whole argument pointless. Just because PC games sell less than their console counterparts it doesn't logically follow that PC gaming is dead.

[Schnoogs]

" it is hard to hold a straight face and still say that the PC gaming isn't dead."

Funny. I never ran out of things to play all year, and I could probably count the number of times I powered up my PS2 this year on one hand.

Exactly...this site floors me sometimes

[ruprect]

PC Gaming allows a depth of play that isn't there as much for me on Consoles, and I don't think every could be. FPS, stealth, adventure, and GTA type games are great on console, but Civ 4, WoW, all the community mods? Never on a console.

Upgrading sucks sure, but I've been able to run every major game except F.E.A.R. on my Dell 600m Laptop (64MB Video, 1.3Ghz P-M, 1 GB memory) for the past 2.5 years. Just don't turn up the graphics all the way.

It will always be smaller, but it will always be there.

[Taco]

Consoles make real gamers cringe.

/not biased

[thecrazyd]

PC Gaming allows a depth of play that isn't there as much for me on Consoles, and I don't think every could be. FPS, stealth, adventure, and GTA type games are great on console, but Civ 4, WoW, all the community mods? Never on a console.
Wow, all those game types you mentioned, I feel are better on PC. I give consoles fighting games, party games, and platformers.

[Abash Alarmist]

While World of WarCraft came out last year, with the recent developments of over 5M paying customers, it is extremely hard to really say that PC gaming is dead with that kind of player base.

[Veloxi]

I always find it funny when console fanbois declare PC gaming dead or close to dead. It's not going anywhere. While you see less PC games on the shelves these days, that doesn't mean there are less PC games to play. ;)

[Taco]

Too be honest, are people out there really that impressed with the 360 compared to past generations? I mean it's not bad, but it's really nothing special or a massive leap over the Xbox or Game Cube. The Dreamcast and XBox were more impressive on release. I know everyone says Gears of War, who knows what it will look like or what the PC will have by the time it comes out.

And yes, with a console it's all about graphics. They have absolutely positively nothing else to offer.

Or maybe the PC has spoiled me.

[ldi222]

As the article states, PC gaming is in decline in the retail space and that's too bad but the online distribution both with vehicles like steam or amazon is where PC gaming is headed (again the leader paving the way). Aside from the top 10 blockbuster titles and ports, this will probably push a lot of PC games below the radar or "underground" at least in the American market. I mean how many gamers know about Final Fantasy vs Gothic? Still, Id take Gothic any day and if this is what PC gaming is morphing into, it could be a very good thing.

[H.Bogard]

Got tonnes of triple A titles to play this year, almost even more than i got to play on the PS2 (GoW and RE4 only...maybe sotc but with shitty framerates)

And F.E.A.R. is a once in a lifetime experience.

[Dabombpizza]

Hmm...I think the profit that PC gaming generates in monthly subscriptions needs to be analyzed and compared to over all console sales to truly compare the two. PC Gaming is dead, it's just not the same thing as console gaming.

[Vermillion]

Let's see, I'm still playing WoW, Guild Wars, Act of War, Civ 4, FEAR, Rome-Total War and CoD on my pc. I bought 1 game for my Xbox this year, NCAA football, which is more or less a roster update and I haven't played even that in months. I don't plan on buying a 360 anytime soon, just because the price doesn't justify the interest level in their current line up.

Until consoles can do consistant RPGs (KOTR was great, but KOTR II suxor) and begins to make strategy games, it will only be good for sports titles and racing games (Burnout sexah) to me. And I'm not buying any more EA sports games until they stop using them as nothing more than roster updates.

[Schnoogs]

Every generation they say the same thing. In a year when PCs have their latest CPU's and video cards we'll once again see better quality games on the PC. The cycle never ends. As long as the PC isnt bound by a 4 year restriction on upgrading its performance we will see it rebound as developers take advantage of its latest technological offerings.

Tech demos from Far Cry 2 already demonstrate technology not playable on current console hardware. We'll see those features in 4 years when PS4 and XBox 3 come out.

Meanwhile PC gamers will be enjoying games using SM4, etc.

[rein]

If pc gaming keeps declining it will be close to dead. I don't think it will ever go away.. ...for pc users it is to easy to load a program like steam and download what they need. What I do think is that brick and mortar pc sections are going to die... ..they are already on life support. My local EB when it opened 3 years ago had about 10 ft of pc wall space. Now it is 4 foot and they want to shrink it more and take it off the wall completely. You pc guys can beat your chest and shout about how hardcore you are for tweaking your games but that does not change the facts that store are not going to carry pc games much longer.

My biggest fears is that every publisher will have their own steam like program and next thing you know you are getting conflicts out the ass. That or they will start to limit how you can mod the downloaded content.

[Kelegacy]

Too be honest, are people out there really that impressed with the 360 compared to past generations? I mean it's not bad, but it's really nothing special or a massive leap over the Xbox or Game Cube. The Dreamcast and XBox were more impressive on release. I know everyone says Gears of War, who knows what it will look like or what the PC will have by the time it comes out.

And yes, with a console it's all about graphics. They have absolutely positively nothing else to offer.

Or maybe the PC has spoiled me.
Not impressed with the 360 and wont be impressed by the PS3. Why? Because I have been a PC gamer for years and also eye candy doesn't floor me anymore. I know a lot of people on this site care way too much about graphics, but I'm not one of them. This is why the GBA is so great...graphics do not matter one iota.

[KarmaGhost]

The sad part is that they point at an absurdly small number of titles as the "successes" of 2005. When you can sum up 2005's PC gaming by saying Battlefield 2 and F.E.A.R., it is hard to hold a straight face and still say that the PC gaming isn't dead.Every so often, and it's usually only when you're talking about PC Gaming, I read your news posts and think someone like Red Cloak has written them.

PC gaming will always be radically different than console gaming. I look at it as a hobby of sorts. Every time, and I mean every time, a new console comes out, its graphics rival those of the PC and the end of PC gaming is announced. Every time, the PC sticks around and the graphics improve over their console counterparts. This is how it works, it is the nature of technology. The Xbox360 is, no doubt, the best looking console made to date, but of course it is. In another 5 years or so, there will be another generation of consoles and, no doubt, they will look better than the current PC games. Etc, etc.

[Heretic Machine]

Update: Console Gaming's Not Dead Yet!

I am teh news.

[Montgomery_Python]

I am teh nude.

[Citizen Philip]

*blink*

My computer is doing fine, and there were more titles across a wider range of genres than the consoles combined.

What I will say is: PC gaming has not grown explosively as console systems become more widespread. No one.. two or three specific company can control PC gaming (Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo), because it's an open standard; which has its flaws. As such PC gaming has no main front man honking the PC gaming horn, sponsoring websites and magazines to lament the greatness of their PC flavour... you get the idea.

[RevXwise]

# of console games I have purchased over the last year: 0
# of PC games I have purchased over the last year: 12

I also own just about every console (except xbox360) and have maybe played a total of 20 hours on all of the consoles over the last year. I play on my PC for at least an hour a day, sometimes all day. As someone said before, the day PC gaming dies is the day I am no longer a gamer.

[thecrazyd]

I think what Red Cloak... oops, I mean Evil Avatar, means is "I AM TEH DIRTY LITTLE TROLL! WATCH ME SPREAD DISCONTENT AND FOSTER ARGUMENTS WITH MY FLAME BAIT CLEVERLY DISGUISED AS NEWS!"

[BenN1ce]

I play mostly FPS shooters so PC will never die for me. Nothing like the precision of keyboard and mouse headshots. No need for a 360 yet cuz Oblivion will also be on PC.

[president_fred]

You pc guys can beat your chest and shout about how hardcore you are for tweaking your games but that does not change the facts that store are not going to carry pc games much longer.
Since when does number of games sold physically in stores equate the total number of sales. Programs like steam while imperfect are, at least I hope so, indicative of the future. The sooner I don't have to deal with publishers, huge game stores and the fuckwads who run them (ceo's not average workers although I find so many places are so unpleasant) the better. The more money I give straight to the developer the better. I think PC's will lead the way as they tend to do. Just because companies like sony and MS pay money to have their consoles take up a great deal of physical space in store doesn't mean that PC gaming will die just that soccer moms will buy games for these consoles.

That or they will start to limit how you can mod the downloaded content.
Why would they do it anymore than they do it now? And how would that be different from consoles?

[Onea]

PC is the king for some genres such RTS and FPS simply because of the mouse and keyboard. I can't stand playing either with a controller, and its great being able to communicate with the keyboard. I can't stand headsets because I hate listening to 11-year olds scream shit every three seconds.

Also, PC's are generally more useful all-around. I can switch between playing games, talking on IRC, and browsing websites all while listening to music. Once consoles can do all that, I wouldn't even say PC's are dead. They'll simply have moved to the living room.

Oh and if you haven't picked up Age of Empires 3 yet, hurry out and do it right now. Its the best RTS I've played since Starcraft.

[XenonCJ]

Hehe what a fucking JOKE. PC Gaming is about as dead as World Cup Soccer.

Until people and companies stop making MILLIONS and MILLIONS on PC Game sales, then you can think about calling it dead. Sorry, but GET REAL and off the crack.

[GrinR]

Consoles are one keyboard and mouse away from the death of PC gaming. Sure, the die-hards will always be there, but look, let's be honest; there are still people playing games on the Mac and saying they are real gamers. We know how we look down on them, don't we?

The 360 isn't the killer, but the next gen will be. 360 can already plug into my Dell LCD widescreen. It plugs right into my DSL line. It already has a hard drive for movies and pictures and music. Hell, it has native DD5.1 output. I heard you can plug a keyboard in (but not a mouse?), but ultimately it doesn't matter since there aren't any games that need one. That's about 70% of my PC right there.

Put a keyboard and mouse on there and port over WoW - and I might just never use my PC again.

[Kelegacy]

Consoles are one keyboard and mouse away from the death of PC gaming. Sure, the die-hards will always be there, but look, let's be honest; there are still people playing games on the Mac and saying they are real gamers. We know how we look down on them, don't we?

The 360 isn't the killer, but the next gen will be. 360 can already plug into my Dell LCD widescreen. It plugs right into my DSL line. It already has a hard drive for movies and pictures and music. Hell, it has native DD5.1 output. I heard you can plug a keyboard in (but not a mouse?), but ultimately it doesn't matter since there aren't any games that need one. That's about 70% of my PC right there.

Put a keyboard and mouse on there and port over WoW - and I might just never use my PC again.

So basically the consoles will kill the PC but will eventually become PCs. I like this stripping down, building up thing that MS is trying to do. That way they will be lords of the PC realm when Xboxes are the only PC's on the market.

[Adam Blue]

I think MS made a good move with the 360...they kept the gap between console and PC gaming from narrowing this generation. The 360 became more of a media center than a PC, and that's good for PC gamers.

[XenonCJ]

Consoles are one keyboard and mouse away from the death of PC gaming. Sure, the die-hards will always be there, but look, let's be honest; there are still people playing games on the Mac and saying they are real gamers. We know how we look down on them, don't we?

The 360 isn't the killer, but the next gen will be. 360 can already plug into my Dell LCD widescreen. It plugs right into my DSL line. It already has a hard drive for movies and pictures and music. Hell, it has native DD5.1 output. I heard you can plug a keyboard in (but not a mouse?), but ultimately it doesn't matter since there aren't any games that need one. That's about 70% of my PC right there.

Put a keyboard and mouse on there and port over WoW - and I might just never use my PC again.Then all of a sudden you'll realize you're playing on a PC. Funny how that works isn't it?

Also lets see how well you do in any RTS game without a mouse.

Think b4 u speak.

[Thin_J]

PC gaming isn't going anywhere, just like this topic isn't going anywhere because people just won't let it die.

[didragondi]

I played Dungeon Seige 2, Fear, Guild Wars, all of which I think were commercially successful, and as long as they continue to make money, the games will come. ALso, I am not sure anyone else here plays sstrategy games, but Civ 4 is going to make millions, it is just getting started. The ones we may unfortunately lose are the gems like Freedom Force the 3rd Reich which I also played, and was good, just not sure if it make money. Frankly, it was better than Dungeon seige 2, but how fair is that?

[bapenguin]

Look at the long term...there used to be a weekly release of a solid PC title, now we are lucky to get it monthly. PC Gaming may not be dead, but it's surely not the preferred platform anymore.

[Taco]

It hasn't been the preferred platform since the PS1, if that.

[devicelimit]

I'd say PC gaming is dead when no more games are released for it. As of now, there are still games being released. You can definitly argue that it's dying, that there are less games being released and consoles are getting closer in hp etc., but saying PC gaming is flat out dead on the ground is just ignorant.

[Taco]

Hypothetically, lets say it crashed, how would that happen? Everything continues to get consolidated to the EAs, who slowly but eventually cash out of the PC market and into the console market. Are we dead or is there a void that smaller companies can now afford to fill without having to go up against the giants?

So someone hits the reset button, I'm okay with that.

[Draft]

Digital distribution is going to revive pc gaming in a big way. Programs like Steam are going to be a godsend for independent developers. And larger developers will migrate over when the business model becomes a bit more mature.

[SynapseLapse]

Actually, the more that I think about it, the more I realize that almost all the games that interest me come out on the PC and not for consoles. I tend to play RPGs and Adventure type games on consoles, but I use the PC for my tactical games, MMO, more RPGs, sim-style games, etc.

The game I really want to try out right at the moment is The Movies which is PC only.

The movies is availble for PC and all three consoles.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/search/index.html?game=the+movies&x=0&y=0
Although, I can't imagine playing it on a Ps2 with an 8mb memory card.

The movies looks a lot like the Old PC game Stunt Island if anyone ever played that.

[Taco]

We'll see, if they consolidate a bit. I'm not too interested in juggling a dozen steam-like applications. Steam has grown on me, but not to the point where I'd want Steam squared.

[Rirath]

For pete's sake... WoW has how many million subscribers? End of story.
Stupid sensationalism as usual. As long as people have PCs, they will have PC games.

Look at the long term...there used to be a weekly release of a solid PC title, now we are lucky to get it monthly. PC Gaming may not be dead, but it's surely not the preferred platform anymore.

Great! The signal to noise ratio was getting a bit poor anyway. PC games tend to, in my view, last far longer than console games. We don't /need/ weekly hits.

[Taco]

But when consoles are upgradeable, allow email and web browsing, connect to your monitor and TV and have a keyboard and mouse the PC will be dead!!

;)

[Frogleg Special]

FPSes in consoles exist because they're subsidized. For example, Halo exists because Microsoft bought Bungie, and the humongous marketing arm of MS creates the greatest hype in gaming world ever. Add that the price and accessability of a console like Xbox make this a success.

I think Intel, AMD, Nvidia, ATI and Microsoft should start subsidizing PC gaming as a platform. They all have interest in the PC as a gaming platform. Practices like keep selling expensive video cards is not the way of maintaining your business intact. The rate of people turning to console would become faster and as a result the sales of PC would decline, Vista won't be deemed as an important OS to purchase, and Nvidia/ATI would become the console manufacturers bitches.

[SynapseLapse]

A lot of people sight PC gaming as dying because it costs so much to get a gaming class PC from scratch.

Which is true if you were to buy a PC to play ONE game and nothing else.
The $250 I spent for my 6800 is about the same as a console.
But I use my PC for internet, Photoshop/graphics work, video editing, 3d rendering and word processing. So I really don't feel like I've spent $1500 just to play HL2 well.


It really seems like there are two types of people that predict the death of PC gaming.
1. Those that use a pc for nothing more than a souped up game console and are tired of drivers/updates/upgrades/cost compared to a console. And never bother to learn anything about their PC.

2. Those that love PC style games, hate console controllers, and are afraid that PC games are going to disappear entirely.

Look at Electronic Arts for example. Remember when they were a tiny little software company that made interesting and complex RPGs for the computer? What was the last RPG they put out? Lord of the Rings for PS2? An RPG lite title.

[Frogleg Special]

Look at the long term...there used to be a weekly release of a solid PC title, now we are lucky to get it monthly. PC Gaming may not be dead, but it's surely not the preferred platform anymore.

Yeah, yeah we know the preferred platform is Xbox.

Now that doesn't sound too PC, right.

[Evil Avatar]

I always find it funny when console fanbois declare PC gaming dead or close to dead. It's not going anywhere. While you see less PC games on the shelves these days, that doesn't mean there are less PC games to play. ;)

Um... Yes it does. If there is less shelf space devoted to PC games and less games on the shelf... it means there are less games to play.

Face it, as far as retail goes most stores already consider it a dead platform. I may have mentioned that my local Gamestop is down to only two tiny shelves for PC games. Compare that to four years ago when they had an entire wall devoted to PC gaming.

[XenonCJ]

So basically the consoles will kill the PC but will eventually become PCs. I like this stripping down, building up thing that MS is trying to do. That way they will be lords of the PC realm when Xboxes are the only PC's on the market.Which is why there will probably ALWAYS be a devide between consoles and PCs.

Consoles are locked down per the company that releases them. You will never see a PS3 built by Dell for example... Games released for the PS3 go through a pretty rigorous development\license\distrubution process pretty much controlled in one way or another by Sony.

PCs can be "whatever" OS, and "whatever" builder can build them. Games released for PCs include regular retail channel games from the likes of EA and so forth, 3rd party shareware suprise games like Doom by Id for example, flash or whatever games on the web, then of course everything else a computer can do.. Office\engineering\design\art\music stuff to computer game and console game developent itself.

This is why PCs always have the edge when it comes to graphics and cpu performance.

Consoles are designed as powerful as possible for the mass market for a 3 to 5 year timeslice.

Computer hardware is ultimatly designed for "the now", for scientists, engineers and architects who need REAL power at whatever the cost. A lot of us use that same power (I'm an engineer) for both work and pleasure. And it works out great. =)

There will be a market for computer games for quite some time.

[Frogleg Special]

So basically the consoles will kill the PC but will eventually become PCs. I like this stripping down, building up thing that MS is trying to do. That way they will be lords of the PC realm when Xboxes are the only PC's on the market.

That's when geekdom dies. When Xbox becomes PC, Microsoft (Windows and Web) programmers would think that "hey, we're not going to DO anything on a joke gaming machine. Time to convert to Sun-IBM-Oracle world"

This is what Microsoft wants to avoid. Xbox can never be a PC because in Microsoft mind, geekdom is still king, not gamerdom. Microsoft is a company made by nerds not gaming slackers.

[Evil Avatar]

Then all of a sudden you'll realize you're playing on a PC. Funny how that works isn't it?

Also lets see how well you do in any RTS game without a mouse.

Think b4 u speak.

All of the sudden you realize you are playing on a system that doesn't require an operating system, hardware upgrades or driver updates every time a new game comes out.

That would be heaven.

[Shifteh]

Yeah, sure it's dead.

F.E.A.R., Battlefield 2, and nothing else! Oh, well, Guild Wars. Oh yes and Civilization IV and Age of Empires III. Maybe we could add the five million or so people still playing World of Warcraft. How about that Counter-Strike game? I hear a couple of people play that.

The fact that anyone would claim PC gaming is "dying" with a straight face is laughable.

[Vermillion]

Look at the long term...there used to be a weekly release of a solid PC title, now we are lucky to get it monthly. PC Gaming may not be dead, but it's surely not the preferred platform anymore.

Honestly, I doubt you can really say there used to be solid pc titles released weekly and be truthful. If so, name the year and give me the 52'ish titles that were solid.... :)

And I look at the flip side, I don't see consistant SOLID console titles (on a single platform that I can't get on PC) being released monthly yet. You'll have to convince me that console gaming is alive before you use the same logic to compare the pc dead.

Hey, maybe I'm getting old and am no longer "hip" to what the kids are buying these days. All I have is my own perspective which is heavily favored in the pc column..

[Taco]

Evil's right. Installing video drivers ruins everything.

[Evil Avatar]

The fact that anyone would claim PC gaming is "dying" with a straight face is laughable.

I take it you haven't been into a retail store in the last two years then, right?

[XenonCJ]

Um... Yes it does. If there is less shelf space devoted to PC games and less games on the shelf... it means there are less games to play.

Face it, as far as retail goes most stores already consider it a dead platform. I may have mentioned that my local Gamestop is down to only two tiny shelves for PC games. Compare that to four years ago when they had an entire wall devoted to PC gaming.That's really a dumb and generalized way to look at it. How about sales? While suffering a dip in sales, a 1.1 BILLION dollar industry is HARDLY dead my friend:

http://www.writenews.com/2005/021105_gamesales_04.htm
According to the data compiled by the NPD Group, overall U.S. video game console software sales reached $5.2 billion (160.7 million units), computer games sales were $1.1 billion (45 million units), and a record $1.0 billion (42.3 million units) in portable software sales. In terms of total units sold, approximately 248 million computer and video games were sold in 2004 -- nearly two games for every home in America by ESA estimates. These numbers released by the ESA do not include sales of game hardware or accessories. By way of comparison, 2003 figures were: U.S. video game console sales reached $4.9 billion (149 million units), computer games sales were $1.2 billion (52.7 million units), and portable software sales were $903 million (37.4 million units). In terms of total units sold, 239.3 million computer or video games were sold in 2003.

[Vermillion]

All of the sudden you realize you are playing on a system that doesn't require an operating system, hardware upgrades or driver updates every time a new game comes out.

That would be heaven.

Damn Evil, now I really think you are drinking your own cool aid. Let's see, I've had the same computer setup for 2 years. I upgrade drivers on a need basis (which isn't hard by the way and I honestly couldn't tell you the last time I did it) and last I checked, consoles run on an O/S and still get patched online.

I sure as hell am not buying hardware upgrades, having to download new drivers or doing anything to my O/S every time I get a new game. I'd hate computers too if I had to go through all that, but something tells me that you are trying hard to spin the topic to prove your own opinion. Either that, or you are just the most unlucky guy I know of in the computer department... :)

[Evil Avatar]

Evil's right. Installing video drivers ruins everything.

Video cards and drivers are the bane of PC gaming. I have a lot of friends who work at big game publishers and you can't imagine how many people are purchasing DELL, HP and Gateway computers that come with S3 Unichrome or Intel on-board video cards (or the older GeForce 2 MX that is no longer supported in current titles).

When people go out to purchase a mainstream title like The Sims 2 or The Movies and find that it doesn't run on their $1500.00 Dell PC, that is a huge strike against PC gaming every time.

Those people won't be back for a hardcore title (like a shooter or a MMORPG) and they certainly aren't going to be purchasing any titles via a download service like Steam.

[Shifteh]

Um... Yes it does. If there is less shelf space devoted to PC games and less games on the shelf... it means there are less games to play.

Woah, woah, let's think about why that is. Take a look at the PS2/Xbox shelves. You know what you're going to see? A hell of a lot of double, that's what! Add in the GC shelf, and woah, there's some triple going on here!

And "less shelf space" and "less games to play" removes the following things:

Flash games.
Independant/Tiny studio games. (IGF entrants)
Mods. (emphasis)
Abandonware/Shareware/Demos/etc.
Programmes like Steam.

Steam, as much as I dislike how awful it has been thus far, is being copied by a lot of other companies. Soon developers that don't have the 50,000 Ninendo wants to make their games can actually release games! And they don't even need to pay for packaging, etc.

The fact that you can simply gloss over mods and independent companies is absolutely ridiculous.

Hell, I can download fucking console games onto my computer if I want to.

[bean19]

PC - still the best place for the very best first person shooter experiences and the very best MMO experiences.

I think it is very easy to say that PC gaming isn't dead when the most successful video game ever is currently only available on PC. World of Warcraft has 5 million subscribers right now, and they've undoubtedly had more purchasers than that in the past as most of the people I know have played and left the game by now (after having grown bored with the level 60 instance grind).

There aren't a ton of quality games for PC, but it is about comparable to the Gamecube in top notch titles. . . while I've bought a great number of PC titles this year, I'm not interested in playing any of them anymore. 2 or 3 great games/year doesn't really make me swoon, but that's sort of the nature of the beast. There really aren't that many extremely good games on ANY platform each year. They are spread out among them.

Still, the PC has a lot to offer, and I'm definitley looking forward to Auto Assault, Spore, Tabula Rasa, and Age of Conan next year.

[Exodus]

gotta love how this news is right after WoW hit 5 million subscribers...

[XenonCJ]

All of the sudden you realize you are playing on a system that doesn't require an operating system, hardware upgrades or driver updates every time a new game comes out.

That would be heaven.

#1 The XBox has an operating system.
#2 So hardware upgrades are bad? I guess you still play an Atari2600 and/or Commodore64 then?
#3 You flash and patch Xbox and Xbox360 stuff already, what are you talking about again?
#4 maintaining a modern computer is about as hard as clicking "MS Update" to "on".

But then again, since "hardware upgrades" are so scary for u, I guess u are like still on your 286 or whatever so I assume you dictate over your tin-can string combo to the treehouse your Evil Avatar updates? =)

[KarmaGhost]

A lot of people sight PC gaming as dying because it costs so much to get a gaming class PC from scratch.

Which is true if you were to buy a PC to play ONE game and nothing else.
The $250 I spent for my 6800 is about the same as a console.
But I use my PC for internet, Photoshop/graphics work, video editing, 3d rendering and word processing. So I really don't feel like I've spent $1500 just to play HL2 well.You, sir, are teh smart. Your point about the cost of PC gaming vs. the cost of console gaming is one that I've always shared and I think is a big reason why you really don't hear that arguement anymore.

Um... Yes it does. If there is less shelf space devoted to PC games and less games on the shelf... it means there are less games to play.True, but I can't remember the last time I bought a game from GameStop or EB. Most of my recent PC game purchases have been made online because that's where the low prices are at. Often times, you can buy the Special Collector's Edition DVD online for a cheaper price than the normal, 6 CD version in EB.

[XenonCJ]

Those people won't be back for a hardcore title (like a shooter or a MMORPG) and they certainly aren't going to be purchasing any titles via a download service like Steam.That's quite irrelevant. Again you are just talking out of your ass and not looking at real sales numbers.

[Evil Avatar]

I think it is very easy to say that PC gaming isn't dead when the most successful video game ever is currently only available on PC.

Um... Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas (PS2 - 12 million) is available for the Playstation 2, Xbox and PC. The Sims (PC - 16 million) is available for GameCube, Game Boy Advance, Playstation 2, Xbox and PC.

The most successful game ever is Super Mario Bros. for the NES at something like 41 Million.

(Also, Halo - 5 million, Halo 2 - 7 million)

[Thenetcase]

This is a rediculous discussion.
I have owned a Gamecube, a PS2 and I have an Xbox and will get an XBox360. I have played my XBox more than the PS2 and Gamecube because the XBox games are more like PC games most of the time. I just favor it for some reason. But I can go for months with out touching my Xbox and not miss it because my PC is SO MUCH BETTER... Which brings me back to the point of being a hardcore PC gamer.
I sold my PS2 to a friend because I didn't ever play it. I'd logged may 4 hours of play on the PS2 in the two years I had it. The Gamecube I played for maybe a half an hour (I won it in a contest) before I traded it for some PC stuff.

The point is that there people on both sides of the fence on this one. It doens't mean that you are smarter or stupider than someone else-- it merely means that you favor a certain type of access. I prefer to have control whilst some people prefer to have a simple system they can walk upto, turn on and brainlessly start using (and I can understand and respect that).
Why can't people just understand that the market exists the way it is simply because people are different and care for different methods and styles of entertainment?

The PC gaming market will never die. :) As long as there are PCs there will be PC games.

-TNC-

[easi]

I was all geared up to write a lengthy post about how stupid Evil's commentary was, do a list of all the PC titles I've enjoyed this year, etc etc

Then I read the comments and saw pretty much everyone already got sucked into it. This site seems lively enough without admins whipping people into a furor.

[Evil Avatar]

I was all geared up to write a lengthy post about how stupid Evil's commentary was, do a list of all the PC titles I've enjoyed this year, etc etc

Then I read the comments and saw pretty much everyone already got sucked into it. This site seems lively enough without admins whipping people into a furor.

Hard to imagine that the title of the article is "PC Gaming's Not Dead Yet" eh?

Sorry, I've been saying for four years that PC gaming was a dying platform. When I first started saying it people like G.B. were laughing at me saying, "People say that every time a new console system comes out." and you know what... I was right.

PC gaming has taken a huge hit and I doubt we will see some huge recovery any time soon (at least not while NVIDIA and ATI are content to charge $400+ for a state of the art video card).

I'm glad people are still fanatical about PC gaming, because I want you to use your PC to browse this website, but I think that a dose of reality is in order now and then.

Unless something changes soon, console gaming will get bigger and bigger and there will be less and less PC games made every year. Honestly, I don't think that streaming game services like Steam are the answer. (Certainly not while Xbox Live is offering a similar service.)

What we need is another title like Quake 1. Something that just gels with the entire community and drives PC gaming right to the forefront of gaming again.

I think Counter-Strike was in the position to be that title until the cheating got so out of hand.

[Chill]

Since this is the end of the thread and no one will ever read this, I'll just say this, PC's are going to be at the forefront in only some genres. Sure, 3rd person adventure platform games are best on consoles. But, a flight simulation or strategy game is best on a PC. Probably will be too until the next crop of consoles, which will be PC-console hybrids (for MS, at least). And on that note, I'd like to add DX10 will probably help with driver issues and the like.

[KarmaGhost]

I think Counter-Strike was in the position to be that title until the cheating got so out of hand.I don't think cheating is the problem with CS anymore. I think unbalanced gameplay, the number of "elite" players, and a hostile community are the biggies.

Industries always have slumps; some last longer than others. There are slumps that cannot be recovered from and there are those that can be overcome. There was a time, back when console gaming was in its infancy, before the Famicon was released, that people announced the end of the consoles. Obviously, that didn't happen. As long as people are willing to play and pay, PC gaming won't die.

[Crabby]

Um... Yes it does. If there is less shelf space devoted to PC games and less games on the shelf... it means there are less games to play.

Face it, as far as retail goes most stores already consider it a dead platform. I may have mentioned that my local Gamestop is down to only two tiny shelves for PC games. Compare that to four years ago when they had an entire wall devoted to PC gaming.


Ordered over three games off of the internet this year and had them shipped directly to my house (of course). A first for me. How many games aquired through this manner are you considering among this figure of "games on store shelves?" Your answer should be none because that figure doesn't relate to what I and hundreds of people do each day, with all forms of games.

You run a website, how can you be so ignorant of the internet's impact on the consumer market in the US over the past five years?

As a secondary note, GameStop focuses on its used/resale action far more than they desire new purchases. Guess which platform they don't accept used or don't deal in used product?

[GrinR]

Then all of a sudden you'll realize you're playing on a PC. Funny how that works isn't it?

Also lets see how well you do in any RTS game without a mouse.

Think b4 u speak.

A. The "PC" is distinguished from a console primarily by its customizability.
B. A console made entirely out of PC parts is not a PC.
C. You cannot play RTS on a console because you cannot use a mouse.
D. Give the console a mouse and the remaining PC genre(s) become console genres - as I stated.

Read b4 u kneejerk.

[Jukey]

The movies looks a lot like the Old PC game Stunt Island if anyone ever played that.
Played it. Loved it. Miss it.

[rein]

Since when does number of games sold physically in stores equate the total number of sales. Programs like steam while imperfect are, at least I hope so, indicative of the future. The sooner I don't have to deal with publishers, huge game stores and the fuckwads who run them (ceo's not average workers although I find so many places are so unpleasant) the better. The more money I give straight to the developer the better. I think PC's will lead the way as they tend to do. Just because companies like sony and MS pay money to have their consoles take up a great deal of physical space in store doesn't mean that PC gaming will die just that soccer moms will buy games for these consoles.

Did you read all of what I said?
If pc gaming keeps declining it will be close to dead. I don't think it will ever go away.. ...for pc users it is to easy to load a program like steam and download what they need. What I do think is that brick and mortar pc sections are going to die... ..they are already on life support.

Why would they do it anymore than they do it now? And how would that be different from consoles?

You do not have companies like EA (and some others) with their little versions of steam. I'm not saying it will happen, just a fear of mine. As far as how is it different than consoles.... ..that's the point... ..it's not. That is part of the edge pc gaming has over console gaming right now... modding.

[rein]

Revolution controller = RTS on consoles.

[TheBrainKills]

I'm with Evil on this one, PC gaming is dying out for me. I have been upgrading my computers for 20 years now, and I am getting tired of it. I will upgrade now once every 5 years instead of every six months.


#4 maintaining a modern computer is about as hard as clicking "MS Update" to "on".

But then again, since "hardware upgrades" are so scary for u, I guess u are like still on your 286 or whatever so I assume you dictate over your tin-can string combo to the treehouse your Evil Avatar updates? =)

This is just too funny, when you can make your living fixing other peoples computers. hehe. Maintain ..."MS Update" haha.

[Frogleg Special]

Revolution controller = RTS on consoles.

Says who? You still need a keyboard to punch in the quick shift+whatever command and quite a bit of intelligence to play it. We all know the average PC gamers are brainiacs.

\jk

[gawaintheblind]

I think I watched a dvd on my ps2 this year. but after getting my monster computer this year, next gen consoles are looking kinda lame.

[Drinking_Buddy]

I am with Evil on this as well. The other day I was in Best Buy and I check out the system requirments for BattleField 2. I then went over to there computer deparment, not even there most expensive computer was not up to par to play it. Hell they could barely play Half-Life 2 or Doom 3.

Thats why HL2, Doom 3 and BF2 where ported to consoles. Sure there are a 1-2 million people who will buy those games and update there systems. But there are 7 million who wont, or cant.

[GrinR]

Flash games.
Independant/Tiny studio games. (IGF entrants)
Mods. (emphasis)
Abandonware/Shareware/Demos/etc.
Programmes like Steam.


OH NOEZ WHAT I DO WIF OUT DEM!?!?!

[Borys]

I remember when I was the lone PC gaming defender on this site.

Good times.

Gald to see 80 posters fighting the good war against Evil's trolls.

BTW: he will come back to PC gaming... they always come back, like bears to honey.

[Evil Avatar]

A. The "PC" is distinguished from a console primarily by its customizability.
B. A console made entirely out of PC parts is not a PC.
C. You cannot play RTS on a console because you cannot use a mouse.
D. Give the console a mouse and the remaining PC genre(s) become console genres - as I stated.

Read b4 u kneejerk.

There really is no reason you can't make a RTS on a console. Just have a button to select all units of a specific type and a button for buildings and you are all set.

No one really tries it, but it could be done.

Most all RTS games just consist of building a couple of hundred units as quickly as possible and throwing them at the enemy - it isn't like there is really any "strategy" anyway.

[Varsity]

Excellent, another addition to my bulging 'PC Gaming dead 2005' bookmarks folder. In fact it's almost as bulging as my 1995 and 2000 folders! Fancy that...

Most all console RTS games just consist of building a couple of hundred units as quickly as possible and throwing them at the enemy - it isn't like there is really any "strategy" anyway.Fixed.

[Neosho]

As a note, the 5 million WoW subscribers is ACTIVE people, not total boxes sold. I don't even want to know how many boxes have been sold. I'm sure it's freaking absurd. However, when you take into account how much money bliz is raking in, i think that PC gaming is far from dead or even dying. It's changing, which some people may make out to be dying, but everything is changing. Some would even say that consoles, real consoles, are dying because of the lack of quality singleplayer experiences on them. Sure, you laugh as you read that now, but in 2 years, when the PS3, Rev, and xbox360 are ripping up the field, with live everything online and all that, people will still be looking for a good RPG...and suddenly they'll find it on the PC.

Gee, what a suprise. Evil, you say that PC gaming is dying, and i say that the number of people that paired 7800 gtx's prove you wrong. Hell, we couldn't keep the fucking things in stock when i was working at fry's (thank god that hell is over) for summer money.

Also, the people that are dropping 1500$$ on dells usually arn't the ones gaming, either. It's their kids that get pissed, go out and buy the card with their own money, and drop it in. Just like it's always been...

Additionally, one upside to massive production companies is going to be a push to put things out on every console/platform avalible to them. EA has no loyalty to one console or the next, so they may put it out on as many potential systems as they can, and that's going to keep games going to the PC as well.

Even if PC gaming is dying out of the mainstream, which it's simply not, the remaining thing to remember is that the PC gaming community puts untold hours into games like CS:S, DOD:S, WoW, EQ2, AoE3, Civ4, and so on...i find that a game that i buy on PC lasts significantly longer than the games that i buy or play on consoles.

Stupid space rangers 2 is taking away from my WoW time...damn whoeever suggested that game to me, damn you straight to hell...lol.

[Wonka]

<speculative rant>
I think that in truth PC gaming will not ever die off. Its just going to be like live theater. Most people go to see movies, but some still prefer the theater. In general, theater fans are people who want something more special and hands on, but most of the time most folks just want the convenience of a movie. In the "old days" live theater was as popular as movies, but anymore its just a lot more specialized and rare. In spite of outrageous box office prices, live theater is generally more expensive than movies too. This has to do with economics of scale, and I bet that the same thing will happen to PC gaming (and already is happening if you count the hardware). But what I mean when I say it WILL happen is that I think that PC games will get more and more expensive. Digital distribution can delay this, but inevitably, the cost of games for PC gaming will go up relative to console gaming. It may take 10-15 years, but it will happen if PC gaming continues to become more and more of a niche experience. And PC gaming won't become a niche experience because of poor sales on the PC side. Instead it will happen because of relatively BETTER sales in console gaming. That means that all the best ideas and games will get brain drained over to the console side. Its inevitable, balls roll downhill. Business men and women want to make MORE money. Right now the areas that are still doing well on PC are the ones that are more difficult to do with a controller. Sooner or later someone is going to make those games work better on a console and when that happens, the brain drain process will complete. There will still be people who want to run their own show when playing games, but it will be a much less common thing than today.

I have a pet theory that whether or not people feel PC gaming is dying is determined primarily by their age. I think that the older we get, the more we start thinking back to the glory days when PC gaming was about as big as console gaming, or to when PC gaming was where pretty much *all* the rapid innovation occurred. And then we might start to think that PC gaming will die off. A lot of innovation still happens in the PC gaming world, but anymore, it's not much more than console games have. It used to be A LOT more innovation than consoles and now its pretty even.

Microsoft wants to make the whole experience of playing games on a PC more like playing on a console. So while your console is getting more PC like, your PC is also getting more console like. In the end I bet that either system will probably play a game that says "Xbox360" on it (or maybe Xbox 720 depending on how long it takes MS to unify things). And then only the hard core hobbyists will play games where they try to manage which drivers they are using etc.

So in the end we will almost all play games on something that looks and acts rather more console-ish than PC-ish. But a few will stil play games the old fashioned way. And they will probably be running openGL in Linux just to get away from "the man" and his driver management software...
</speculative rant>

[bean19]

Um... Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas (PS2 - 12 million) is available for the Playstation 2, Xbox and PC. The Sims (PC - 16 million) is available for GameCube, Game Boy Advance, Playstation 2, Xbox and PC.

The most successful game ever is Super Mario Bros. for the NES at something like 41 Million.

(Also, Halo - 5 million, Halo 2 - 7 million)

Most successful != total overall sales.

WoW gets an extra $15 from every subscribing user every month.

[GrinR]

There really is no reason you can't make a RTS on a console. Just have a button to select all units of a specific type and a button for buildings and you are all set.

No one really tries it, but it could be done.

Most all RTS games just consist of building a couple of hundred units as quickly as possible and throwing them at the enemy - it isn't like there is really any "strategy" anyway.

I reviewed Starcraft for the N64 about a lifetime or two ago. That's exactly how it worked, and I have to admit... it DID work.

[Frogleg Special]

I reviewed Starcraft for the N64 about a lifetime or two ago. That's exactly how it worked, and I have to admit... it DID work.

So, you play it just to move the units across the screen or for some match over the Battle.NET?

Goblin Commanders bombed, people. Bookmark that.

[bapenguin]

Again I'll go back to my point of big titles released nearly weekly. That used to be the norm. There was always a game to look forward to next week, now we look forward to games with months of seperation between. Maybe it's a shift in how games are played, MMORPGs like WoW, Everquest and the like sucked the life out of the rest of the PC Gaming world.

[Evil Avatar]

So, you play it just to move the units across the screen or for some match over the Battle.NET?

Goblin Commanders bombed, people. Bookmark that.

Did it bomb because it was on a console or because it just sucked? If it was a decent game with poor controls, that would be worth bookmarking, but if the game was just average to begin with we can't learn much from the example.

You would really need to see someone like Blizzard or Ensemble (Or... HaHa... Creative Assembly) bring a RTS to a console to see if it would still work.

What would probably work best would be the game that Blizzard never made, the RTS / RPG that Warcraft III was going to be until they chickened out and just went with another standard RTS.

[GreenIce]

So evil, since you know everything about competitive rts play, would you mind if I asked what your APM in a TFT ladder match is?

[sflufan]

If anything the exhorbitant development costs and licensing fees of the next-gen console games are going to force smaller independent developers into the arms of PC gaming and its digitial distribution model where they can reap a bigger percentage of the profits than through traditional means.

To a certain extent, MS and Sony are playing with fire by driving up the next-gen development costs so significantly. This is the sort of situation that is just setting themselves up for a major fall.

Take for example the newly formed Hyboreal Games which is largely made up of ex-Blizzard North employees. Their stated goal is to develop games for the PC platform exclusively with system requirements that will make their games more affordable and accessible to users with low-end and laptop PCs.

Or Warren Spector hooking up with Valve to distribute his next games through Steam. Or Ritual doing the same thing with SiN Episodes.

If anything PC gaming presents smaller companies with the logical alternative to the demands of the next-generation. Will they be able to make as much money than they would if they were console-centric? No but they wouldn't even get their foot in the door to get a development kit without proving to Sony/MS that they had a substantial budget.

PC gaming will hopefully assume the role of both the "underground" and "elite" gaming platform where you can cater to both the low-end and the high-end and be profitable at the same time.

[Frogleg Special]

Did it bomb because it was on a console or because it just sucked? If it was a decent game with poor controls, that would be worth bookmarking, but if the game was just average to begin with we can't learn much from the example.


It's not Teh Suck. It was created by an ex-Blizzard guys. Controller is Teh Suck for an RTS control scheme.



You would really need to see someone like Blizzard or Ensemble (Or... HaHa... Creative Assembly) bring a RTS to a console to see if it would still work.


Creative Assembly did bring an RTS to PS2 and Xbox. Total Warrior. Mind you, it's not Teh Suck but Dynasty Warriors derivative. Dang, if it's not the controller, it would be developers perceptions that consoles audience couldn't fathom deep games like the Total War Series. Nanananana.



What would probably work best would be the game that Blizzard never made, the RTS / RPG that Warcraft III was going to be until they chickened out and just went with another standard RTS.

What standard RTS can't be good for consoles? You got that right.

Besides Blizzard is a PC gaming developers. If they make an RTS/RPG, then it would be in the PC.

Face it:
Unreal Tournament 2004 > Unreal Championship 2
Deus Ex > Deus Ex : Invisible War
Baldur's Gate > Jade Empire
Icewind Dale > Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance
Diablo 2 > Any Action RPG made for the Xbox
PC Morrowind > Xbox Morrowind
Sims PC > Sims Xbox
Battlefield 2 > Battlefield MC
FEAR > Condemned
PC WW2 FPS > Xbox WW2 FPS
Civ 4 > Any TBS for the Xbox
Mechwarrior series > Mechassault series
PC Star Wars games > Xbox Star Wars games
Nascar 4 > Any Nascar games made for the Xbox
PC Action/Adventure game < Ninja Gaiden (gotta admit that)
WOW > ..............
Guild Wars > .............
PC penis... I'm getting out of hand here

I'm not comparing PS2 games, because when it says Evil Avatar - it says X-B-O-X

[Taco]

it would be developers perceptions that consoles audience couldn't fathom deep games like the Total War Series.

Which is totally 100% correct and is why all you get are hollow games with flashy graphics.

[Jetherik]

I was wondering when the first PC gaming is dead article would show up. Gees, this must be a record of late - only 10 days left to the New Year.

[bapenguin]

Face it:
Unreal Tournament 2004 > Unreal Championship 2
Deus Ex > Deus Ex : Invisible War
Baldur's Gate > Jade Empire
Icewind Dale > Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance
Diablo 2 > Any Action RPG made for the Xbox
PC Morrowind > Xbox Morrowind
Sims PC > Sims Xbox
Battlefield 2 > Battlefield MC
FEAR > Condemned
PC WW2 FPS > Xbox WW2 FPS
Civ 4 > Any TBS for the Xbox
Mechwarrior series > Mechassault series
PC Star Wars games > Xbox Star Wars games
Nascar 4 > Any Nascar games made for the Xbox
PC Action/Adventure game < Ninja Gaiden (gotta admit that)
WOW > ..............
Guild Wars > .............
PC penis... I'm getting out of hand here

I'm not comparing PS2 games, because when it says Evil Avatar - it says X-B-O-X

Apples>Oranges

Your entire list was fucking pointless. Each game is completey different and has a different target audience. Consoles are not meant to play PC Games. Ask that same list to a console gamer first and they'll make all those > signs, <. It's a matter of perspective and opinion not fact.

[didragondi]

I just listed games before, but I will post one more time to agree with the person above that said it is changing. I think there are and likely always will be enough PC players to keep companies producing games like Civ 4, Halflife 2, WOW, and various other big shooters- FEAR is a good example, but I also think of Far Cry. However, I really hope that online downloading becomes a better known access to games for the Joe Public potential new PC gamer, because what certainly seem to me to be dying are good single playerPC RPG's. I love a good PC RPG, but in 2005 at least I think there was not one pure RPG released for single player. NOt one. YOu had Space rangers 2 to blend strategy and RPG, Dungeon Seige 2 and Fate to blend action and RPG, but wheres my Baldurs GAte 2? or Divine Divinity?( I hear that company is working on an engine that looks prettier that Morrowwind.) or even Icewind Dale 2? The closest was Freedom FOrce/3rd Reich, and I do not know sales but I sure hope that and the other games I mentioned did well. On the horizon, I think Dragon Age will come out and do well, but I am not even hearing of any other potential good new single player RPG's coming out.. And just to stay on topic, I own consoles and am an equal oppurtinity gamer, but I do not like the turn based style where I do not plan my character. Given that, I dont believe I heard of any good console single player RPG's coming out. Mass Effect sounds okay but too action oriented.. I dont know..I hope I am wrong and more are coming out that I dont know about, but it doesnt look good. Oblivion might be good, but also pretty action oriented and I hope it offers more direction that Morrowwind did. I heard they made the world BIGGER. I was like shit, I couldnt find my way in Morrowwind, half the time, I will be hopelessly lost in oblivion.

[Taco]

Apples>Oranges

Your entire list was fucking pointless. Each game is completey different and has a different target audience. Consoles are not meant to play PC Games. Ask that same list to a console gamer first and they'll make all those > signs, <. It's a matter of perspective and opinion not fact.

You are of course right. They take the PC games, strip out the fun, grind out any perceived complexities and increase the speed, viola, a console game that's completely different.

[didragondi]

I just want to add the one game for single player RPG's that gives me hope for 2006(I think Dragon age will be 07) TItan QUest- party based RPG with pretty graphics and everything, it just cant come out fast enough.


By the way, this does sound like how they made Deus Ex 2, but um that sort of thing is not unique to consoles:

You are of course right. They take the PC games, strip out the fun, grind out any perceived complexities and increase the speed, viola, a console game that's completely different.

[Taco]

And fatties are not unique to America, they just have the highest ratio :).

[Kelegacy]

You are of course right. They take the PC games, strip out the fun, grind out any perceived complexities and increase the speed, viola, a console game that's completely different.
That's why I hate Jade Empire and hope to God Bioware buys back their sense from whomever they sold it to.

[Citizen Philip]

You are of course right. They take the PC games, strip out the fun, grind out any perceived complexities and increase the speed, viola, a console game that's completely different.

I've witnessed firsthand what happens when you port an FPS to console.

You rip it up, drop the difficultly, increase the player's speed and if possible remove puzzles that require higher levels of dexterity.

And.. drop texture and geometry detail to fix onto as few dvd/CDs as possible.

[Oblivion]

pc gaming won't die unless the civilized world dies.

[bapenguin]

You are of course right. They take the PC games, strip out the fun, grind out any perceived complexities and increase the speed, viola, a console game that's completely different.

Console games have their place. Saying they aren't fun is idiotic. I agree PC Gaming is far superior to console gaming in depth and expandibility, but nothing beats the ease of popping in a disc and off you go.

[Taco]

pc gaming won't die unless the civilized world dies.

If Bush used that as a platform for invading Iraq I'd be supporting th effort!!

[bapenguin]

I've witnessed firsthand what happens when you port an FPS to console.

You rip it up, drop the difficultly, increase the player's speed and if possible remove puzzles that require higher levels of dexterity.

And.. drop texture and geometry detail to fix onto as few dvd/CDs as possible.

Problem is, you shouldn't be porting a PC FPS to a Console or a Console FPS to a PC. For example Halo XBox to Halo PC or Half-Life 2 PC -> Half-Life 2 Console.

[Taco]

Console games have their place. Saying they aren't fun is idiotic. I agree PC Gaming is far superior to console gaming in depth and expandibility, but nothing beats the ease of popping in a disc and off you go.


Well fun is in the eye of the beholder. My point would of been better made leaving that out and expanding on the all to common changes, I thought of that afterwards though.

[Hydroeric]

WoW owns me I have 4 characters totalling 199 levels as of lastnight. Though F.E.A.R. did provide a great way for my non-60 characters to accumulate more rest. Black and White 2 was a waste.

Did not adopt an Xbox360 because I didn't have the money and so far I am cool with that. Maybe when Oblivion...but since my computer is over 2 years old I may be on the low end for that.

PC gaming is my has been favorite and always will be. As far as it dieing, it is all cycles just like the movies, music, and construction industry.

[WastelandDan]

PC Morrowind > Xbox Morrowind

I don't agree that Morrowind for the PC is better then the Xbox version at all. Aside from the addons you could download for Morrowind I think that the Xbox version was infinitely superior. Morrowind was a game that had no need for the increased tactile feeling that you get from a mouse and keyboard, so no loss there. The biggest improvement I think was that Morrowind was a total bitch when you tried to set it up and get it to play smoothly. I had a brand new top of the line system when it came out and trying to get it to play with a consistant framerate was horrible. Compare that to the xbox game of the year version that had both expansion packs on it. People undervalue the concept of no assembly required.

I don't shy away from complexity, I built my computer from parts I ordered online. I know how to troubleshoot for problems that would make the average person cry, so it's not a good argument to say that I prefer the Xbox version because I'm not smart enough to use the PC version. I'm asking, why is it necessary for a game to be difficult to set up and play in order to be worth playing? That's just stupid! Console games are very appealing to me because they work out of the box(for the most part). If I buy a PC game and I have to screw around with the settings for half an hour, updating this and that, downloading patches, comparing framerates from before and after I turn off 6x ansiotropic filtering or soft shadows I view that as an inherent flaw. Sometimes simplicity is just better.

I'll tell you this much, Oblivion is going to be a hell of a lot better on the 360 then on the PC. Morrowind was a system hog and Oblivion is going to be on a whole other level. Just thinking about how much hard drive space it's going to take up and what a bitch it's going to be in getting it to run smoothly makes me glad I'm pretty much only a console gamer now.

[captainspankypants]

I'm broke, and that governs all my game-playing decisions to a certain extent. My computer is about six years old, so I'm not buying any PC games any time soon. I'm also not buying a 360 any time soon. If I had the money for a 360, some games, and a Live account, I'd buy a PC instead. Maybe a decent but budget-priced laptop. Then I would definitely buy some PC games, because face it, they're half the price of console games and you don't pay for a Live account to take them online. I wouldn't be buying the newest, most graphically intense games mind you, but I don't do that anyway.

I suppose my point with all this is that the only real reason that I am playing console games right now is because it's the cheapest option with my current financial situation. If my financial situation changed, I wouldn't waste my money on a 360, I'd be going PC all the way.

i.e. PC=I wish, 360=waste.

[RevXwise]

but nothing beats the ease of popping in a disc and off you go.

The one thing that beats that... is installing the game and getting a no-cd crack for it. Never having to put the CD in your system again and only having to double click on it whenever you want to play it certainly beats the ease of walking to your console and putting in the game CD.

[WastelandDan]

but then you've swapped putting a disc into a tray for something that's illegal. Sure the morality of the no-cd crack isn't cut and dry and it hardly makes you a villain, but you're saying that it's easier to hunt for and download an illegal application then to take a disc out of a plastic box and put it in a cd drive. I think it's kind of ridiculous to say that's the easier way to go.

[president_fred]

I don't agree that Morrowind for the PC is better then the Xbox version at all. Aside from the addons you could download for Morrowind I think that the Xbox version was infinitely superior. Morrowind was a game that had no need for the increased tactile feeling that you get from a mouse and keyboard, so no loss there. The biggest improvement I think was that Morrowind was a total bitch when you tried to set it up and get it to play smoothly. I had a brand new top of the line system when it came out and trying to get it to play with a consistant framerate was horrible. Compare that to the xbox game of the year version that had both expansion packs on it. People undervalue the concept of no assembly required.
I am not going to get into the whole Morrowind is better on PC or Xbox, played both preferred the PC version. Prettier graphics for one. But I will say this by the time the Goty edition came out for both PC and Xbox you would be hard pressed to find a "real top of the line" PC that didn't run it flawlessly, in fact I bought a new PC for morrowind and had no problems although I think anectodotal evidence online is suspicious at best so I don't expect complete credulity.
People have their gaming preferences but to claim (like someone did earlier can't remember who) that new PC games don't run smoothly on bleeding edge computers is down-right ignorant. Personally, I think it stems from people buying new computers with as an example 6600 as opposed 6800gt and expecting it to be essentially the same sort of performance. Also people confuse new for bleeding edge. Yes you can buy a new car but if its a ford fiesta its not going to outrace a 10 year old ferrari if you follow my meaning.

[Frogleg Special]

I don't agree that Morrowind for the PC is better then the Xbox version at all. Aside from the addons you could download for Morrowind I think that the Xbox version was infinitely superior.


How is it "infinitely superior" with the bugs and all that (we're talking plain vanilla Morrowind) left unpatched + DDE error?



The biggest improvement I think was that Morrowind was a total bitch when you tried to set it up and get it to play smoothly. I had a brand new top of the line system when it came out and trying to get it to play with a consistant framerate was horrible. Compare that to the xbox game of the year version that had both expansion packs on it. People undervalue the concept of no assembly required.


1. Specify the specs please.
2. Do you know how to configure the settings. PC gaming is not a one size fits all affair. You can tweak the setting on PC Morrowind.



I'll tell you this much, Oblivion is going to be a hell of a lot better on the 360 then on the PC.


You got a time machine, Bud?


Just thinking about how much hard drive space it's going to take up and what a bitch it's going to be in getting it to run smoothly makes me glad I'm pretty much only a console gamer now.

I don't think you need to justify your decision. Since you hate complexity, might as well as put your PC into the garbage bin and start living to become a luddite.

[didragondi]

I also know a couple of people personally who use the updates and patches thing as an excuse for their own reluctance to try a different medium. SUre, there are some games that are difficult to run w/out patching, but if you consult the net before you buy, then your are likely to get a game that will run on any reasonably new system, and many games-Civ 4, sims, warcraft 3, were designed from the ground up to run on as many systems as possible.

[Frogleg Special]

Consoles are not meant to play PC Games.

Huh?

Platform is gaming agnostic; the only influence might come from the default control scheme (gamepad vs k/m). There can be Halo, which is a PC gaming derivative, or even a faithful Operation Flashpoint to be played in a console.

But the culture for the masses of console gaming consistently creates games inferior to PC games. Yeah, that's where Rainbow 6 : Lockdown and that 50 cent game originated.

[Frogleg Special]

Console games have their place. Saying they aren't fun is idiotic. I agree PC Gaming is far superior to console gaming in depth and expandibility, but nothing beats the ease of popping in a disc and off you go.

Agree. Console gaming is simply fun to get and go. PC gaming is a chore, but sometimes rewards come out for the patient ones.

[ldi222]

But the culture for the masses of console gaming consistently creates games inferior to PC games. Yeah, that's where Rainbow 6 : Lockdown and that 50 cent game originated.

I have to agree with that for the most part (HALO aside). Just look what happened to biowares RPG's, they went from Baldurs Gate to Jade Empire. Im glad at least Bethesda still gets it. Console games do not have to be dumbed down, if they were more sophisticated, I suspect less PC gamers would care about a declining market.

It seems like mass market gaming is going the way of Hollywood, forumla sequal based and dumbed down for the greatest sales numbers. PC will be more of the sundance festival.

[bean19]

Again I'll go back to my point of big titles released nearly weekly. That used to be the norm. There was always a game to look forward to next week, now we look forward to games with months of seperation between. Maybe it's a shift in how games are played, MMORPGs like WoW, Everquest and the like sucked the life out of the rest of the PC Gaming world.

I don't remember a time when we would get cool games for the computer weekly. When I think back on computer games that I'm glad I played, there are years separating all of them. . . and if I look at the number of shit computer games upcoming, there are still a lot of them. Just as there are about 5 to 10 computer games each year that I look forward to playing, and about 2 to 3 of those that are worth buying. That's actually fairly comparable to the console that gets the largest number of games made for it.

Let's see, what games did I buy and KEEP in 2005:

PC

Civilization 4
Sid Meier's Pirates!
F.E.A.R.
Battlefield 2
The Movies
Guild Wars

PS2

God of War
We Love Katamari
Resident Evil 4
Dragon Quest VIII
Shadow of the Colossus

Xbox

Psychonauts
Burnout Revenge
Ninja Gaiden Black (didn't actually buy this as I bought the original, but it is SOO kick ass.)

Gamecube - not a damn thing this year. Killer 7 and RE 4 both showed up on the PS2.

PSP/DS -

Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow
Nintendogs
Mariokart
Advance War
GTA LCS
Lumines

X360 -

Perfect Dark Zero
Need for Speed: Most Wanted
DoA 4 (if it launches this year - now releasing on 12/28)

These are all the games from 2005 that I have bought AND KEPT. In this light, the PC is very comptetitive as a platform for me. Also, the fact that an incredibly great game like World of Warcraft can gain 5 million concurrent subscriptions proves that the MMO market can potentially be the absolutely most lucrative market around.

Dead. . . I'd say that it is very alive and is actually growing larger market share. However, I'd hesitate to make any game for just the PC and not also put it on a console unless I was making an MMO.

[Taco]

Is there a study out there on the profitability of MMO's? Obviously WOW is, but what ever came out of the other two dozen MMO's that were announced and hyped over the last four or five years? And beyond that how have the developers that were working on them made out?

I'd say unless you have an enormous amount of cash backing you to not to even attempt it. Costs too much to develop and with monthly fees there is too much competition from people who do have that kind of cash.

[bean19]

Is there a study out there on the profitability of MMO's? Obviously WOW is, but what ever came out of the other two dozen MMO's that were announced and hyped over the last four or five years? And beyond that how have the developers that were working on them made out?

I'd say unless you have an enormous amount of cash backing you to not to even attempt it. Costs too much to develop and with monthly fees there is too much competition from people who do have that kind of cash.

Yes. . . MMOs are extremely scaleable. There is a reason that games like DAoC, Asheron's Call 1, and Ultima Online are still in existence and still have expansion packs sold for them, etc.

Years and years ago, when Asheron's Call 2 was new, someone wrote a story about the profitability of MMOs. I can't even begin to look at it, but one noteable quote from the Turbine folks in the article was that they were running in the black after they acheived 50,000 concurrent customers as they made enough money with that many subscribers to both pay their bills for servers, support, and continued development and pay back the time they invested in development of the property.

The author of this now forgotten article was actually given some (but not all) numbers on the operating costs for servers, and an idea of how many people were employed in customer support and continued development of the company, etc. I don't remember the details, and won't attempt them, but basically at 50K subscribers, half of the subscription money was "profit". As the number of subscribers goes up, a larger portion of the subscription money becomes profit. I don't remember the scale, but let's say if you have around 100K subscribers, 60% is profit instead of just 50%.

It is an extremely lucrative business, and it is a wonder that more people aren't making MMOs. Before World of Warcraft, any MMO that acheived over 100,000 concurrent subscribers was an incredible success, and Everquest was a standout for having several hundreds of thousands of subscribers at once.

I'm sure costs have gone up as the demand for more features, better graphics, etc. have all gone up and that minimum number that must be reached to acheive profit has probably gone up too. Yet CoH/CoV seem to be doing well with like 200K subscribers, so I'm betting that the number for a modern MMO is somewhere around 100K subscribers. It's just that none of the recent releases are anywhere near that number to test. . . MxO is well below it and has been sold off to a company that can package it as part of their All Access Pass plan, and the others (CoH/CoV, Everquest II, and WoW) are all successful. We might learn that number exactly if EQ II ever falls below the minimum, but I think they'll last for ages like the others. . . simply scaling down costs like their counterparts from the previous generation of MMOs before completely becoming unprofitable and thus dying off.

[bapenguin]

Ok....lets go back to 2001. I'll use this article as a source (http://www.gamershell.com/articles/471.html). While I can't confirm all titles were released in 2001, just look at all the solid PC titles on this list.

Solider of Fortune 2
Return to Castle Wolfenstein
Star Trek Elite Force
Morrowind
Baldurs Gate 2
Neverinter Nights
Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction
Operation Flashpoint
Freedom Force
Commandos 2
Project Eden
Medal of Honor: AA
SimGolf
Arx Fatalis
Anarchy Online
Max Payne
Stronghold
Jedi Knight 2
Star Wars galaxies
Age of Mythology
Dungeon Siege
AvP 2
Half-Life: Blue Shift
Red Faction
AC2
Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor
The Settlers IV
Silent Hunter 2
Command & Conquer Renegade
Command & Conquer Yuri's Revenge

I know some of those titles flopped, and really that's only the list from E3 on, so we are missing the first half of the year....but still. I used to work retail from 98-2001 or so...I remember it. Week in and week out there would be tons of PC titles coming out.

Looking at EB's (http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/categories/products/deptpage.asp?wherefrom=comingsoon&web_dept=PC+Games) coming soon list I see....

25 To Life
Team Fortress 2 (;))
STALKER
Hellgate: London
MiddleEarth Online
Empire Earth 2 Expansion
Auto Assault
Tabula Rasa
Star Wars Empire at War
Heroes of Might and Magic V
D&D Online
LOTR: BFME 2
Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter
Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Double Agent
The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
Full Spectrum Warrior: Ten Hammers
Prey
WoW Expansion

[didragondi]

um no offense but nostalgia is clouding your memory. Pool of Radiance was an RPG, which I play and I must say it was not good, I seem to remember OS system crashes. Also, blue shift was not great, it was essentially another single player halflife mod, of which the internet had lots, and they were charging full game price for it. Red Faction and Operation FLashpoint were more mediocre than solid. Finally, Titan Quest is not on your list, nor is RIse of nations legends which sounds very cool and might make 06. Not to be too critical, cause I dont post that often, but I am trying to be positive about the coming year. ALso are we sure that all other potential 06 releases have been given dates by eb? Titan Quest I am hearing gameplay and stuff, so I am confident it makes 06, so if they dont have it maybe theyre missing others.

[president_fred]

Morrowind
Baldurs Gate 2
Neverinter Nights

I can't be bothered to go through the whole list and this may seem like nit picking but I don't remember Neverwinter Nights and Baldurs Gate 2 being released the same year. And BG2 and morrowind certainly weren't. Thats all it seems a slightly exagerated list but I take your point. I just don't think there is as big a difference as you make out, a difference yes, just not that big.

[bapenguin]

um no offense but nostalgia is clouding your memory. Pool of Radiance was an RPG, which I play and I must say it was not good, I seem to remember OS system crashes. Also, blue shift was not great, it was essentially another single player halflife mod, of which the internet had lots, and they were charging full game price for it. Red Faction and Operation FLashpoint were more mediocre than solid. Finally, Titan Quest is not on your list, nor is RIse of nations legends which sounds very cool and might make 06. Not to be too critical, cause I dont post that often, but I am trying to be positive about the coming year. ALso are we sure that all other potential 06 releases have been given dates by eb? Titan Quest I am hearing gameplay and stuff, so I am confident it makes 06, so if they dont have it maybe theyre missing others.

The point is SHIT CAME OUT. Have you seen my Weekly Releases that I've been doing for the past 2 years? I've seen first hand the decline of the amount of PC releases.

[didragondi]

Okay after visiting the potential 06 list for myself, RIse of Nationslegends, is on list for 5/06 (sounds overly optimistic but you never know); Also listed is Fear and Respect with John Singleton, that interests me more than 25 to life; Galactic Civilizations 2 (original didnt prob. sell well, but it was good); Desperados 2 could be good for about the same reason; finally, Mage knight apacolypse uses the silent storm engine to tell a fantsy story and could also be good. Once again, I am trying to be positive on 06, not necessarily argumentative with you in particular

[didragondi]

I do see what you're saying though about the volume. Even if more do make the year, its still not what it once was; hopefully more good stuff by percentage; Gothic 3 is another that just occured to me, although I think there are import delay issues. Is it just me or do more of the PC developers seem to be in Europe now? At least more of the New independent ones doing nonsequel stuff?

[bean19]

Ok....lets go back to 2001. I'll use this article as a source (http://www.gamershell.com/articles/471.html). While I can't confirm all titles were released in 2001, just look at all the solid PC titles on this list.

[edit: I have added the release dates to the quote in parantheses - bean19]

Solider of Fortune 2 - (realesed 5/22/02)
Return to Castle Wolfenstein - (released 11/20/01)
Star Trek Elite Force - (6/25/03)
Morrowind - (5/1/02)
Baldurs Gate 2 - (9/22/00) - guessing you mean the Throne of Baal expansion (6/21/01)
Neverinter Nights - (6/16/02)
Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction - (6/27/01)
Operation Flashpoint - (7/10/02)
Freedom Force - (3/24/02)
Commandos 2 - (9/20/01)
Project Eden - (10/8/01)
Medal of Honor: AA - (1/20/02)
SimGolf - (1997 - er, what? Got the same results on two sites)
Arx Fatalis - (11/11/02)
Anarchy Online - (6/26/01)
Max Payne - (7/23/01)
Stronghold - (10/21/01)
Jedi Knight 2 - (3/26/02)
Star Wars galaxies - (7/9/03)
Age of Mythology - (11/1/02)
Dungeon Siege - (3/31/02)
AvP 2 - (6/2/03)
Half-Life: Blue Shift - (6/11/01)
Red Faction - (9/17/01)
AC2 - (11/20/02)
Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor (9/21/01)
The Settlers IV - (7/30/01)
Silent Hunter 2 - (2/17/02)
Command & Conquer Renegade - (2/25/02)
Command & Conquer Yuri's Revenge - (10/08/01)

I know some of those titles flopped, and really that's only the list from E3 on, so we are missing the first half of the year....but still. I used to work retail from 98-2001 or so...I remember it. Week in and week out there would be tons of PC titles coming out.Okay, so let's wittle that list down to games that actually came out in the year 2001:

Return to Castle Wolfenstein - (released 11/20/01)
Baldurs Gate 2 - (9/22/00) - guessing you mean the Throne of Baal expansion (6/21/01)
Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction - (6/27/01)
Commandos 2 - (9/20/01)
Project Eden - (10/8/01)
Anarchy Online - (6/26/01)
Max Payne - (7/23/01)
Stronghold - (10/21/01)
Half-Life: Blue Shift - (6/11/01)
Red Faction - (9/17/01)
Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor (9/21/01)
The Settlers IV - (7/30/01)
Command & Conquer Yuri's Revenge - (10/08/01)

Now how many of those games did you look forward to buying? How many did you buy and keep? The only two on my list are Anarchy Online and the Baldur's Gate II expansion. 5 of these titles, btw, are expansions. I was surprised that the number of titles I'd actually want from your list and that are released in 2001 only contained 2 games I consider worth owning. I thought it would be closer to my 2005 number.

Looking at EB's (http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/categories/products/deptpage.asp?wherefrom=comingsoon&web_dept=PC+Games) coming soon list I see....

25 To Life
Team Fortress 2 (;))
STALKER
Hellgate: London
MiddleEarth Online
Empire Earth 2 Expansion
Auto Assault
Tabula Rasa
Star Wars Empire at War
Heroes of Might and Magic V
D&D Online
LOTR: BFME 2
Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter
Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Double Agent
The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
Full Spectrum Warrior: Ten Hammers
Prey
WoW Expansion
I'm excited by Auto Assault, Tabula Rasa, Prey, WOW Expansion, and about 3 others that I'll buy on my X360 instead of the PC as they are coming out for both.

I completely agree with Evil Avatar that PC gaming is suffering because ATI and Nvidia are pricing video cards far, far outside our ability to pay for them, so I'll play a lot of games that are multi-platform if they are available on my X360 because it is cheaper than upgrading, and I like the Xbox Live features.

Still, I think that the computer as a gaming platform is alive and well. I think the PC gaming audience is growing rather than decreasing, and I also think that MMOs will continue to make it grow until the next graphics card jump when the current step up is made affordable to the average user instead of unattainable.

While I am all about being cynical, you guys are becoming too cynical IMO.

[Kelegacy]

I do see what you're saying though about the volume. Even if more do make the year, its still not what it once was; hopefully more good stuff by percentage; Gothic 3 is another that just occured to me, although I think there are import delay issues. Is it just me or do more of the PC developers seem to be in Europe now? At least more of the New independent ones doing nonsequel stuff?
It's not just you--it's entirely true. I for one am excited to see what Larian cranks out next, the creators of Divine Divinity. They embody the old Ultima-style gameplay, story, and interactive gaming world that I thoroughly enjoy. Beyond Divinity was good, but was riddled with bugs and Starforce, and relied more on Diablo action than the previous game. But Beyond was only a spin-off, and Divinity 2, Riftrunner, (or whatever they eventually call it) will be in my hands on the day it is released.

Since Bioware "abandoned" the PC (except for modules and updates for NWN) in favor of the Xbox, the smaller European houses like these have stepped up to the plate and done great things for the PC.

[bean19]

To my dearest Kelegacy (http://www.bioware.com/games/dragon_age/)

[Adam Blue]

Most all RTS games just consist of building a couple of hundred units as quickly as possible and throwing them at the enemy - it isn't like there is really any "strategy" anyway.


Act of War....greatest RTS game that nobody played...strategy out the ass. So many effing ways you can do something. Atari needs some marketing skills.

IMO, War3 could have been more of an RT'S'. Instead it was more of a downgraded RTS with Diablo crap.

[H.Bogard]

A lot of people sight PC gaming as dying because it costs so much to get a gaming class PC from scratch.

Which is true if you were to buy a PC to play ONE game and nothing else.
The $250 I spent for my 6800 is about the same as a console.
But I use my PC for internet, Photoshop/graphics work, video editing, 3d rendering and word processing. So I really don't feel like I've spent $1500 just to play HL2 well.


It really seems like there are two types of people that predict the death of PC gaming.
1. Those that use a pc for nothing more than a souped up game console and are tired of drivers/updates/upgrades/cost compared to a console. And never bother to learn anything about their PC.

2. Those that love PC style games, hate console controllers, and are afraid that PC games are going to disappear entirely.

Look at Electronic Arts for example. Remember when they were a tiny little software company that made interesting and complex RPGs for the computer? What was the last RPG they put out? Lord of the Rings for PS2? An RPG lite title.

I fear i am #2 right there :(

[Kelegacy]

To my dearest Kelegacy (http://www.bioware.com/games/dragon_age/)
Yeah yeah yeah, I know. It had better be all that and much more to win this former Bioware fanboy back.

And they aren't personally doing BG3 are they? So I can safely say my beloved franchise is about to be fucked over by another development house. And with Atari at the helm, it's almost a given.

[DarkLion700]

I think the whole statment or topic of PC gaming being dead is a ridiculous statment. Pc gaming is not dead, nor will it probably ever be. Sure the Xbox 360 is more powerful... for now, until 6 months down the road better hardware comes out for pc's then the home pc packs a bigger punch, in my opinion 2005 wasn't the greatest year for pc games but it is by far not the worst. Just becuase some people didn't like a lot of the games that came out, doesn't mean they were bad games, nor does it mean it was a bad year.
So I urge people to wake up, smell the coffee PC gaming isn't going anywhere. /end rant

[Lunar Blue]

PC gaming will die the second the last PC gamer dies. If no publisher shells out a game, people will make games for free like they are today. Or mod the existing ones.

It doesn't matter if you have mouse, keyboard, monitor or 4 usb ports. As long as someone who made the hardware gets money off the games you sell, it's still a console.

[Chris_D]

Obviously pc games will continue to be released but anyone who thinks that pc gaming is as vibrant and varied as it was say 5 years ago is clearly deluded. Sure if you love your FPS and MMOGs, with occasional doses of strategy (real time or turn based), then you are pretty much set, but anything else and you can forget it.

Cmon, seriously, when was the last good story driven single player non action rpg released on PC? I'm talking something like Baldurs Gate or Fallout 2. There's been nothing in years.. To be fair I did try Vampire Masquerade but encountered bugs that made the game unplayable. And no, a diablo clone click fest is NOT an rpg in my book. I got sick of that whole genre after Diablo 1 (let alone Diablo 2 and the other bazillion clones that followed it).

[Taco]

Morrowind, Gothic? And there was about five years in between Fallout2 and BG2, there was never a glutton of those games, unfortuantly.

[Kelegacy]

You can count the good single player RPGs (non Diablo action clones) released in the past few years for the PC on one hand and STILL have fingers left over.

[Chris_D]

Firstly you're on crack, Fallout 2 was 1999, and BG2 was 2000. With BG1, Torment, Icewind dale, and BG2 expansion also around that time it truely was a golden 3-4 years for pc rpgs.

Morrowind is way too open ended for me, not what I would consider a good story driven rpg. I hated Daggerfall back in it's day and never could work up any interest in that game. Sorry I can't comment on Gothic as I'm not familiar with that one at all. Would be interested in any links that you might care to post.

As for console rpgs, whatever you might say about them (I have a love and hate relationship with them myself), there sure are a ton of good ones out there. Far more than I can even contemplate getting round to playing. I wish I could say the same for PC rpgs.

[Taco]

Hmm, thought Fallout2 was earlier than that. Maybe I'm confused with 1.

In anycase, they were never that prolific. They just stand out over the years because they all kick ass. As for your second part, your just arguing opinion now. They were single player story driven RPG's that a lot of people love.

[Kelegacy]

Did anyone enjoy Temple of Elemental Evil? I'm looking for a good RPG to play on my PC right now (taking a hiatus from the consoles after the random battles of Dragon Quest VIII) and I never really played ToEE. I've played most other good RPGs in the past years, Divine Divinity, Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, etc, but...wait a second, you know what? I have started Fallout 2 a few times, got to the early Ghoul/Mutant city and never progressed after that. I was in college so I always found something to sidetrack me. Maybe I should give THAT another install!

Thanks Kelegacy, for the reminder!

[Taco]

You can't go wrong with Fallout2. Fallout2, BG2 and Deus Ex all hold personal records for most play throughs with me. Fallout1 is not far off.

[Dag-Sabot]

is there any way in adjusting the resolution in fallout2? The options panel doesnt have anything, and the game looks like crap in low res. Otherwise im a huge fan.

[Taco]

Nope, when it came out that was a pretty normal res on the monitors then. I have the same problem with Torment.

[Crabby]

Obviously pc games will continue to be released but anyone who thinks that pc gaming is as vibrant and varied as it was say 5 years ago is clearly deluded. Sure if you love your FPS and MMOGs, with occasional doses of strategy (real time or turn based), then you are pretty much set, but anything else and you can forget it.

Cmon, seriously, when was the last good story driven single player non action rpg released on PC? I'm talking something like Baldurs Gate or Fallout 2. There's been nothing in years.. To be fair I did try Vampire Masquerade but encountered bugs that made the game unplayable. And no, a diablo clone click fest is NOT an rpg in my book. I got sick of that whole genre after Diablo 1 (let alone Diablo 2 and the other bazillion clones that followed it).


Neverwinter Nights? Selective memory? Two expansions so far man, and the second one is pretty nifty.

[vornskr]

I like how these kind of discussions break out in the midst of next-gen releases whose consoles become more and more like computers each time. :-p

[51|RandoM]

The best pc games from 2005 I am still playing, the best of the console games are collecting dust.

Can't argue with the fact that there are far more console games produced the PC games. Far more games that aren't worth buying, when you get right down to it.

[Zeal]

The only thing that can revive PC gaming is a return of the classic adventure genre.

[Chris_D]

Neverwinter Nights? Selective memory? Two expansions so far man, and the second one is pretty nifty.

Hated NWN. Firstly I really missed the party based system from earlier games, and secondly I always thought the single player game was weak, really just a demo of what you can do with the toolset rather than a good game in it's own right. All in all a great disappointment.

[Crabby]

Hated NWN. Firstly I really missed the party based system from earlier games, and secondly I always thought the single player game was weak, really just a demo of what you can do with the toolset rather than a good game in it's own right. All in all a great disappointment.


Hating it and completely ignoring it from a list of "big" RPGs since BG2 et al are two totally different things. A lot of people ***love*** NWN and it is still played and modded for today. Acting as if it didn't exist to suit your bias and subjective declarations about PC RPGs is in poor form.

[Chris_D]

Whatever, its my opinion I'm allowed to state it. It's not like I'm pretending I didn't like the game to suit my argument. I was genuinely disappointed with it, particularly since I was expecting something more of the ilk of BG2. I certainly wasn't the only one who felt that way at the time. KOTOR I did like a lot but you could definitely see how it was dumbed down for consoles. Kind of sad..

[Crabby]

Opinions are fine, but the bottom line is that NWN qualifies based on the criteria you gave. You may not like the game, but it is a "good story driven single player non action rpg" based on the accolades of the majority culture.

I could say something like "well I thought BG2 was just shit" and that would be okay, but I am not going to pretend that it wasn't a huge pinnacle of AD&D ruleset conversion to an electronic medium as almost all "good story driven single player non action RPG" based games are on the computer. Aside from a few stand-outs like the Fallout series, you basically have the D&D ruleset dictating its own genre of RPG. But that is all terribly irrelevant.

Bottom line? Dick less and be more realistic. Thousands of people play NWN like a damn religion, you can't discount it because you didn't like the flavor. And considering others in this thread have used the Throne of Bhaal expansion to count toward nitpicking PC release quotas, NWN's should fly as well.

[ldi222]

I had a blast with NWN making my own custom server hosted RPG environments and joining others but as a single player game out of the box NWN was horrible, not even close to Baldurs Gate.

[Kelegacy]

I didn't have a problem with NWN (other than it being 60 bucks or so at Wal-Mart when it was released) because, well, it wasn't Diablo. I was afraid I'd get a Diablo clone but I was happy it didnt turn out like that. Now, I never got too far into the game, but I didn't mind it. It wasn't Diablo, but it wasn't Baldur's Gate either.

[Chris_D]

Well I haven't encountered too many people who thought the single player original NWN was up to much. And no, I didn't find the story remotely interesting either. And of course that's opinion, my own. And due to the game being primarily oriented towards multiplayer (which didn't interest me) rather than single player then the party mechanics are significantly dumbed down compared to the infinity engine games. I admit I haven't played many mods, but based on the original module I gather a party can only consist of a henchman who you can only control in a fairly clumsy way.

One of the other sad things is the various times I've to come to NWN over the years I've generally found the mods to be of low quality, and the best mods (based on reviews anyway) always require 1-2 of the expansions. These I'm loathe to buy considering my feelings about the original game.

So yes, when it comes down to it I want more games like the original Infinity engine games, or even the fallout series, on PC. Sadly there hasn't been much to get excited about lately.

[SynapseLapse]

Whatever, its my opinion I'm allowed to state it. It's not like I'm pretending I didn't like the game to suit my argument. I was genuinely disappointed with it, particularly since I was expecting something more of the ilk of BG2. I certainly wasn't the only one who felt that way at the time. KOTOR I did like a lot but you could definitely see how it was dumbed down for consoles. Kind of sad..

I REALLY wanted to lover Kotor, but I could never get past the combat and how simplified it seemed. I could either have my guys relentlessly Power Attack until they won, or I could just plant some land mines and toss a few grenades at the start of the battle to buy my way to victory.

I never found any sort of strategy to the combat other than pausing it and having all your guys focus on one enemy.

*shrugs*

[Taco]

Strategy would give their target audience a headache.

[Kelegacy]

Strategy would give their target audience a headache.
Ah-ha! Too true.

[bean19]

Strategy would give their target audience a headache.

Actually, looking back, has Bioware ever really produced a difficult combat system? In Baldur's Gate 2, occassionally, I'd run into "try and die" mechanics where I wasn't suppossed to fight something because it would definitely win, or I'd need to use fire on a troll, but mostly it was easily beatable by spamming the right spells to win the encounter.

Jade Empire's combat system was incredibly terrible. Far, far too easy, simple, and unsatisfying.

KOTOR, while no great challenge usually, escalated once you got to the point that you were fighting against Dark Jedi. The fact that you could completely heal up after fights by using Force Heal and waiting for Force Points to heal made it really simple, but during the fight, it was flashy enough (and the character skills were diverse enough) that I found myself having a good time.

How often do you run into challenging RPGs anyway? I don't know that I've found any of them.

[Taco]

It's relative. BG and BG2 relative to KOTOR is strategic. It's using the right spells to counter the NPC's spells and it's attacking the right enemy. If you don't know how to use the spells the game is impossible(namely needing to use breach and piercing spells). Clearing AOE's, removing fear, buffing at the right time, debuffing at the right time. Haven't played for about a year but these are the things I remember. Hell, even making sure you memorize the correct spells or choose the correct ones as a Sorcerer and then cast them at proper times. You don't get the more or less unlimited use you do in KOTOR.

KOTOR there is no need to counter, the only thing you need to think about is the difference between droids and non-droids. Other than that spam whatever you have, melee or force powers.

Relative to a straight up strategy game of course it's not going to add up. Not sure I'd want it to since half the game occurs in between the battles. Where a more strategic game would be centered nearly 100% around the battle.

[Stormwatcher]

BG can have a lot of strategy for a CRPG. When you start getting higher in level, enemies have more spells, and things get a lot more complicated. You can also beat fights with very different strategies, depending on your party's composition. End game in ToB is REALLY strategic.