HP Supporting HD-DVD and Blu-Ray

[bapenguin]

MSNBC (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10499388/)

Friday's move represents the biggest victory for HD-DVD since Microsoft, the world's biggest sofware company, and Intel, the world's biggest computer chip maker, threw their support behind that format in September.

HP said its decision to support both standards would put the company in a "better position to assess true development costs and, ultimately, provide the best and most affordable solution for consumers".

Hmmm....I can only see this as an option for PC makers, for movie studios this would only result in more expensive production. DVD, HD-DVD, Blu-Ray and UMD at once? I don't think it will happen.

[KhitomerRouge]

Meh. It means little, if anything. Blu-Ray has the support of every studio but Universal, about 80% of hardware manufacturers, and most of the big PC builders (HP, Apple, Dell). HP's just throwing a temper tantrum because they can't get Sony to play nice with MSFT's iHD interface as opposed to the Java-based BDJ.

[Leaving Hope]

Just one of the ~many~ reasons I don't like Blu-Ray is the fact that it requires Java; while this might be fine for the Playstation 3 and traditional home theater components, it means that Windows machines won't be able to play Blu-Ray movies by default. You'll basically pop in a Blu-Ray disc into your PC drive, and if you don't have the JRE it'll either try to install Java for you or fail to run.

Now, as we've learned the past month, why oh why would we EVER want Sony to install something on our computers for us?

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

Never mind that the only reason HD DVD will be playable on Windows machines without additional software is because MS is building support into Windows. The BDA and the PC hardware vendors supporting it have long urged MS to add BD-J support to Vista (note: BD-J != standard Java), but MS absurdly claims it's too late to do so and is unwilling to pay the royalties in any event, just like they were never willing to pay the royalties necessary for DVD-Video support. Of course, the only real advantage iHD enjoys over BD-J is that Microsoft likes it (seeing how they make it and all), so it's hardly surprising they've taken this tack.

[SMES]

It's kind of funny to me exactly why everyone is so worried about disc formats. The same thing that happened with DVD-R vs. DVD+R is probably going to happen here. Manufacturers will make drives that play both, and have a unified driver that includes java based decoders (or whatever they're called ) for the Blu ray discs, and whatever Microsoft uses for the HD discs.

The betamax/vhs war is probably not going to be reproduced as long as the discs are roughly the same size and shape. That means a drive will inevitably be produced that plays both media.

Edit: I'm aware that they use different types of lasers or whatever. Big deal, just make a drive with two seperate lasers. One requires "caddies?" Well, I think it would be lame to go back to caddies, but if thats what has to be done to make the corporate gods happy, then so be it.

[doubtingthomas]

Is there a player out to market for either yet? If not, when for each?

[bobbler]

Edit: I'm aware that they use different types of lasers or whatever. Big deal, just make a drive with two seperate lasers. One requires "caddies?" Well, I think it would be lame to go back to caddies, but if thats what has to be done to make the corporate gods happy, then so be it.

Neither requires caddies and both use the same laser (they realized nobody wants caddies and it was changed a long time ago) -- the only real difference between the formats is the depth of the data layer (blu-ray has the data closer to the surface -- that comes with some benefits (effect of wobble is reduced, and increased capacity), but also has a downfall (requires something like Durabis to protect it, every BR disc willl have it)). Wouldn't surprise me to see PC drives or stand alone players that play both and later on (would probably be a bit too expensive initially).

Is there a player out to market for either yet? If not, when for each?
Neither have players out for movies -- blu-ray has had some PC burners out for a while now (since last year, or earlier), but they aren't really mass market.

We'll find out a lot more at CES06 as to when the formats will launch in full force (around Januray 5th, I think).

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

Is there a player out to market for either yet? If not, when for each?

"First quarter 2006" for HD DVD, "spring 2006" for Blu-ray. Sony, Panasonic and a couple of other companies have been selling Blu-ray recorders in Japan since 2003, but those aren't based on the finalized spec. HD DVD was supposed to launch in Japan by the end of the year, but Toshiba announced last week that the launch would be delayed for unspecified reasons related to the copy protection system. The business with HP kinda pushed that announcement to the background, though.

[JediSanf]

Just one of the ~many~ reasons I don't like Blu-Ray is the fact that it requires Java; while this might be fine for the Playstation 3 and traditional home theater components, it means that Windows machines won't be able to play Blu-Ray movies by default.

Funny, because that is precisely one of the reason I am in favor of Blu-Ray. If my education has taught me anything it is that allowing MS to control my programming language is a bad thing. Java, XML, and the rest may not be "best of breed" but anything that tackles the problem from an open-source/open-format gets points in my book.

[doubtingthomas]

I'm curious if Sony plans for the PS3 to be the first/one of the initial players for Blu-Ray, and if the lack of information regarding the PS3, which I thought was supposedly coming out in 4-6 months, can be attributed to them finalizing issues regarding Blu-Ray.

[bapenguin]

Funny, because that is precisely one of the reason I am in favor of Blu-Ray. If my education has taught me anything it is that allowing MS to control my programming language is a bad thing. Java, XML, and the rest may not be "best of breed" but anything that tackles the problem from an open-source/open-format gets points in my book.

Well the HD-DVD spec is based on XML...

[Schnoogs]

MSNBC (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10499388/)



Hmmm....I can only see this as an option for PC makers, for movie studios this would only result in more expensive production. DVD, HD-DVD, Blu-Ray and UMD at once? I don't think it will happen.

Yeah...because thats almost as far fetched as Software companies supporting the PC, XBox, PS2, GameCube, etc.

Oh wait...they actually do that.

[Heretic Machine]

Wish they'd stop working on these new laser disks, and start thinking about the actual successor to DVD that we'll get in 5-7 years.

[Wonka]

Funny, because that is precisely one of the reason I am in favor of Blu-Ray. If my education has taught me anything it is that allowing MS to control my programming language is a bad thing. Java, XML, and the rest may not be "best of breed" but anything that tackles the problem from an open-source/open-format gets points in my book.

Java may be many things, but open-sourced is NOT one of them. I like open source software too, but lets not decieve ourselves here. Java is NOT that.

My answer to the winner of the next movie format war is STILL "none of the above". Soon the studios will settle this, and then everyone in nerdville will act like the decision is settled. But it won't be. I won't *really* be settled untill consumers buy one of these disc-types in large numbers... So MAYBE these will catch on sometime after the public have already obtained the $3000 HDTVs that they will need to really enjoy them on? Or maybe it will ALSO have to wait till the average person feels that their DVDs look sorta crufty and could stand to be replaced. So in 2012 perhaps? Until then, this is all just niche-product posturing.

[mister_slim]

Blu-Ray does have a natural upgrade/transition path though, with the dual layer DVD/Blu-Ray disks. Switch to manufacturing dual disks and sneak them into people's homes and they're much more likely to upgrade to a Blu-Ray player, plus this would bring the BR manufacturing costs down much quicker.

[JediSanf]

Java may be many things, but open-sourced is NOT one of them. I like open source software too, but lets not decieve ourselves here. Java is NOT that.

My apologies, you are correct. The more accurate statement should have been "platform independance" which is the bane of major corporations (Sony, MS, et. al.). bapenguin, I was not aware that HD-DVD used an XML base. Sounds like I need to do a bit more research.

Slim, I like the way you think. But is it possible? The BR data would have to be the lower layer (closer to the lens) and I would imagine that the different densities of the formats would cause... issues.

[bapenguin]

My apologies, you are correct. The more accurate statement should have been "platform independance" which is the bane of major corporations (Sony, MS, et. al.). bapenguin, I was not aware that HD-DVD used an XML base. Sounds like I need to do a bit more research.

Slim, I like the way you think. But is it possible? The BR data would have to be the lower layer (closer to the lens) and I would imagine that the different densities of the formats would cause... issues.

Yup...apparantly it's going to use iXML (http://www.ixml.info/).

[KhitomerRouge]

The implementation of the iHD navigation system (the only XML portion of HD-DVD) is going to be as open as Windows is, i.e. not at all.Blu-Ray does have a natural upgrade/transition path though, with the dual layer DVD/Blu-Ray disks. Switch to manufacturing dual disks and sneak them into people's homes and they're much more likely to upgrade to a Blu-Ray player, plus this would bring the BR manufacturing costs down much quicker.
Considering that Sony was one of the forces behind the DualDisc format (hybrid DVDs with a CD side and 5.1 channel side), I'd say that similar discs for Blu-Ray and DVD are inevitable. Also, Panasonic has already started production lines for dual-layer 50GB Blu-Ray discs, and TDK has done the same with writable Blu-Ray media. The HD-DVD camp has been notably quiet about disc production, especially for a format that claims minimal transitions for factories.

[Schnoogs]

Java may be many things, but open-sourced is NOT one of them. I like open source software too, but lets not decieve ourselves here. Java is NOT that.

My answer to the winner of the next movie format war is STILL "none of the above". Soon the studios will settle this, and then everyone in nerdville will act like the decision is settled. But it won't be. I won't *really* be settled untill consumers buy one of these disc-types in large numbers... So MAYBE these will catch on sometime after the public have already obtained the $3000 HDTVs that they will need to really enjoy them on? Or maybe it will ALSO have to wait till the average person feels that their DVDs look sorta crufty and could stand to be replaced. So in 2012 perhaps? Until then, this is all just niche-product posturing.

Funny...I'm looking at the source code right now and it's freely given out by sun when you install the JDK.

[Babbster]

Funny...I'm looking at the source code right now and it's freely given out by sun when you install the JDK.

I don't think "open source" means what you think it does. That phrase basically means that you can take the code, do whatever the hell you want with it and then redistribute it. There are various licenses with specific requirements (such as assigning credit, distributing the new source along with binaries, etc.) but that's the general idea. Java is "closed" source in the sense that you have to get the express permission of Sun to modify and/or distribute their code.

Of course, the whole issue - at least in this particular case - is a red herring. The vast majority of people who will eventually own a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD drive a) won't care how the software behind the discs works and b) will never have any reason to start caring. As long as a disc runs correctly when they put in their player or PC drive, whether there is Java, XML or Pascal driving the menus and such is irrelevant. Even those creating content on their PCs to put on a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD disc are primarily going to use tools that create said code "behind the scenes."