Nintendo Power Issue Removed from School, ACLU Steps In

[modeps]

Grand Theft Auto: Chinatown Wars is tearing up the review charts and landed a cover spot on the latest issue of Nintendo Power. Of course, GTA generates controversy wherever and whenever it appears, so this should not be a surprise here, but a school in Cleveland, Ohio has removed the issue from their library due to the subject matter on the cover. The ACLU has stepped in and legal action looks likely. Gamepolitics (http://www.gamepolitics.com/2009/03/24/chinatown-wars-cover-gets-nintendo-power-yanked-school-library-aclu-steps):

However, ACLU of Ohio executive director Christine Link argued that the magazine should not have been banned from the library:

Literature should not be removed from a school library simply because one person may find it inappropriate... [the school board should] immediately order that the magazine be reinstated.

Despite Link's argument, the Cleveland Heights-University Heights School Board has backed the principal's decision to remove Nintendo Power #234. With legal action on the matter increasingly likely, legal director Jeff Gamso offered the ACLU's position:

The principal doesn't get to say, 'Whatever I say goes.' There's got to be some mechanism by which decisions are made and a process of review. Or maybe tomorrow it'll be ' "Hamlet" -- that's an iffy play.'

I really don't know how to feel about this one. First of all, why is Nintendo Power in a school library in the first place?

[abso]

I really don't know how to feel about this one. First of all, why is Nintendo Power in a school library in the first place?

Bingo. Rather than remove just a single issue, they should remove the entire magazine. Replace it with Wired, Scientific American, National Geographic, etc.

Regardless, I back the ACLU on this. Go get 'em you watchers of the slippery slope!

[Johan]

First of all, why is Nintendo Power in a school library in the first place?[/I]

:rolleyes:

Because groups like the ACLU SUE, that's why. Is it any fucking wonder why the schools are a mess? What a load of horseshit...

:shakes head:

I give up. Parents suck. Communities suck. Children are incorrigible, undisciplined, spoiled little brats who can't wear their pants above their knees because, you know, boxers are stylin', yo! :rolleyes:

Society sucks. Let's sue the school because they don't want an issue of a magazine to become a distraction from the school's PRIMARY MISSION OF EDUCATING CHILDREN.

[UttiniDaKilrJawa]

Why shouldn't a game magazine be in a school's library. Kids are more apt to read about things they like. If something out there encourages a kid that is not obviously offensive/obscene/vulgar why not let it in schools. Second, is the video game industy not a viable career opportunity for a child to aspire to? Some want to be astronauts. Some want to be fireman. Some want to make video games. Why can't these kids have a magazine that they can draw inspiration and motivation from.

As far as the GTA cover goes. I find it a poor practice to pull a magazine just because it has a cover that the principal feels is inapporpriate. Any reports on what the content of that mag was? Was it improper for school or was it just because it was GTA on the cover.

Then again...maybe the guy just doesnt like Chinese :P :)

[Johan]

Why shouldn't a game magazine be in a school's library. Kids are more apt to read about things they like.

READ the magazine?

They're looking at the pictures. You don't know children very well...

[XxSATANxX]

Well I'm not on the fence. I do agree the issue is why the mag is there in the first place. I love when schools decide on reading material. Some butt wipe decided at my HS that Twain had to go cause of the use of N*****r. Sorta missing the point of Twain.

But as we expand how information is given a quick trip to the internets and you can get all your info. It should be noted the game is rated M and this is a middle school. I think the ACLU might find this one a loser as "community standards" is likely to apply.

[UttiniDaKilrJawa]

One other thing I just kind of thought of. Why ban the magazine. USE IT! On the cover is a hugely controversial topic. Use this as a tool to engage the students on the subjects of violence in society. Don't just shutter it away. The only thing that makes kids want something more ....is by whisking it away with virtually no explanation except...'it's bad'.
If you take the time to explain it and discuss with them EVERYONE might learn something.

Isn't that the point of education?

[Johan]

Why ban the magazine. USE IT! On the cover is a hugely controversial topic. Use this as a tool to engage the students on the subjects of violence in society.

And get sued by parents rightfully offended at the exposure of their middle-school-aged children to a mature-rated title.

:rolleyes:

[UttiniDaKilrJawa]

Then lose in court because they're not being exposed to the game. They are being exposed to a magazine article covering the game. Huge difference.

[Johan]

Then lose in court because they're not being exposed to the game. They are being exposed to a magazine article covering the game. Huge difference.

Just as you're not being exposed to sex, you're being exposed to a magazine article covering sex!

Yeah...that distinction will WORK!

You do realize that teachers actually have to substantiate the reasons for their lessons by linking the content to state-mandated standards, right? I don't think you do...

[UttiniDaKilrJawa]

All depends on the context. Hustler ---> bad ...destructive not a good magazine on sex. School sex eduation textbook-----> informative, helpful and enlightening. Its all about how the information is presented.

Some parents will get their feathers in a ruffle sure, but the outcome is sometimes worth it.

As long as people just throw up they hands in the air and say something will never work, it never will. Only thing that can change the views of the people...are the people.

[Johan]

All depends on the context.

There's no context where the content/presentation of a mature-rated title fits in a middle school.

NONE.

[Chimp]

Then lose in court because they're not being exposed to the game. They are being exposed to a magazine article covering the game. Huge difference.

Until you've worked as a teacher you have no idea of the pressure they are under.

I recently decided to exit teaching high school as I grew tired of having 13-year-old children as my boss. They complain to their parents ("OH NOES THE TEACHER IS MAKING ME DO HOMEWORK"), the parents complain to the principal, the board of ed, and the Mayor (yes, we had a woman go straight to the mayor, whom she knew), and suddenly you are being pressured to change the C or B to an A, or worse yet, pass a failing student.

A student was caught red-handed with a copy of a test that had been stolen from a teacher's desk. Since the student was black and the teacher white the student cried "Racism!" and the *teacher* was disciplined for daring to catch him cheating.

I have no doubt that using GTA as a teaching aid would be career-icide in anything but the most understanding district.

It's sad and disheartening.

[murpes]

Weird. If a parent tries to shield a M-rated game from a child it's appropriate, but when a school does it it's not. Granted, there are some possilbly ill-informed choices being made here (should Nintendo Magazine really be in an academic setting? Different discussion.). But what about the parents who don't want their kids exposed to violent games? The shouldn't expect it to be easily accessible in the library. I feel bad for the principal; the issue could swing the other way when angry parents start making a stink about exposure to the magazine.

It's very different than Hamlet or Tom Sawyer. That's part of the curriculum, which is approved by the school board, which is comprised of elected officials from the community. Granted, there may be "edgy" content in some of those texts, but representatives have determined that the educational value of these texts outweighs it. If the same determination had been made about GTA, then the analogy would be more applicable.

[zeonxavier]

READ the magazine?

They're looking at the pictures. You don't know children very well...

I remember well my time spent in the library in grade school. The first priority was to find some books with pictures and illustrations in them. Maybe I'm an oddball, but I did actually read the words in the books, too. My favorite books were the library's collection of Charlie Brown's 'Cyclopedia. Illustrations everywhere, and cool factoids and science to boot!

A few years later, it was Tom Swift. Once you start down the geek path, forever will it dominate your destiny...

[UttiniDaKilrJawa]

Until you've worked as a teacher you have no idea of the pressure they are under.

I've never worked as a teacher true. Yet, I do not make these comments from a complete vacuum. I'm married to a teacher hehe. So, I do have some understanding as to the pressures of it. It usually comes in discussion about how here day was 2-3 times a week.

It is tough being a teacher. Sometimes a teacher has to make a tough choice. Teach or have a job. These two things can sometimes be completely exclusive of each other ( passing the failing grade example comes to mind). When pressed with this choice most teachers will choose to have a job. Some, will actually take that risk and try to teach. Some succeed and some don't. It's the nature of the business so to speak.

[UttiniDaKilrJawa]

There's no context where the content/presentation of a mature-rated title fits in a middle school.

NONE.

So, by this understanding things such as Schnindler's List, To Kill a Mockingbird, and Lord of the Flies should NEVER EVER be let into schools because its too damaging. Nevermind that each observes and reports various educational topics: the holocaust, racisim, and the mentality of mob rule.

[Johan]

So, by this understanding things such as Schnindler's List, To Kill a Mockingbird, and Lord of the Flies should NEVER EVER be let into schools because its too damaging. Nevermind that each observes and reports various educational topics: the holocaust, racisim, and the mentality of mob rule.

To Kill a Mockingbird and Lord of the Flies are part of the approved curriculum in my district...a curriculum approved with the input of the following:

* School board (elected officials)
* Local administration.
* District administration.
* State Dept. of Education.
* Community/parental input/feedback.

Schindler's List is a movie. There are strict procedures for including movies in the curriculum, and there is an approved list of movies in my district (see above for those involved in approving such material). If a movie is not listed, there is an approval process (see above) for using it.

A MATURE-rated video game at the middle school level has NO proper context for inclusion in the curriculum.

NONE.

You need to talk with your wife more about her career.

[WileE.Coyte]

I wonder if the ACLU sits around and wonders, gee, why does a lot of America think we're a bunch of douchebags? It's a damn magazine for crying out loud. You're really going to sue over a glorified ad?

[UttiniDaKilrJawa]

To Kill a Mockingbird and Lord of the Flies are part of the approved curriculum in my district...a curriculum approved with the input of the following:

* School board (elected officials)
* Local administration.
* District administration.
* State Dept. of Education.
* Community/parental input/feedback.

Schindler's List is a movie. There are strict procedures for including movies in the curriculum, and there is an approved list of movies in my district (see above for those involved in approving such material). If a movie is not listed, there is an approval process (see above) for using it.

A MATURE-rated video game at the middle school level has NO proper context for inclusion in the curriculum.

NONE.

You need to talk with your wife more about her career.

But once again we're not talking about the title itself. We are talking about media coverage of said title. A spot you keep jumping over and going directly to the game itself. I agree the game shouldn't be in schools and I don't advocate this. I merely represent the right of the magazine to exist in the library.

As for the wife she's doing great . Thanks for asking :P :)

[DeuceMojo]

Let 'em sue.
If my high school library had more than a bunch of dusty books from the '60s and more than just a bunch of microfiches of ancient TIME articles, maybe I would've spent more time there.

Librarians are always proud of what they have and how it attracts kids, etc. Pull Nintendo Power? Really? And leave them with what? Boys Life? Teen Beat?

Trashy entertainment is at least entertainment. There's a time for Newsweek, and then there's a time for Nintendo Power.

[abso]

But once again we're not talking about the title itself. We are talking about media coverage of said title. A spot you keep jumping over and going directly to the game itself. I agree the game shouldn't be in schools and I don't advocate this. I merely represent the right of the magazine to exist in the library.

If you can develop a pedagogical reason as to why the media coverage of the title is more important than the title itself, then sure. But can you? Maybe if your lesson plan is to discuss violence in the media in general, then a review of available periodicals would be appropriate and relevant. However, to go back to the discussion of context, Nintendo Power on its own has *NO* educational context. Unless it is being used in some lesson plan by some teacher, it has no context.

The purpose of a school is to educate, not entertain. Nor is it to enable students access to content - especially during their developmental years in middle school. Exposure to content regarding discussions of violence in media should occur in a controlled, structured environment. Reading Nintendo Power alone or with a friend in the library is not a structured environment.

Middle school aged kids should not have access to this stuff without an adult. Periodicals that on their own serve no pedagogical value should not be on a school library shelf. If kids want access to other material, they can go to a public library or book store.

I love the aclu though, because for better or worse, they at least pick a side and fight for what they believe in - no censorship. However, in the case of schools, they have been fighting a losing battle of late, as several court cases have ruled in the school's favor and against the speech rights of students while on school property.

[TeeCakes]

If this is a public school, the principal oughtta be ashamed of himself for stepping beyond his bounds by censoring the magazine from children. It's not like they won't simply bring the "banned" issue to school and pass it around, anyway, if anything this act will enhance the rep of GTA:CW in that school's circle of gamer kids. So good job doing absolutely nothing to "shelter" kids from M-rated themes, and for taking one more reason for them to visit the library away.

[TeeCakes]

If you can develop a pedagogical reason as to why the media coverage of the title is more important than the title itself, then sure. But can you? Maybe if your lesson plan is to discuss violence in the media in general, then a review of available periodicals would be appropriate and relevant. However, to go back to the discussion of context, Nintendo Power on its own has *NO* educational context. Unless it is being used in some lesson plan by some teacher, it has no context.

So you're telling me that recess, selling students carnations on valentine's day, the entire sports/music/drama department, or other clearly non-pedagogical events like homecoming and prom should be eliminated from school as well? If not, then you clearly shouldn't make exceptions for an issue of Nintendo Power with a controversial game on the cover.

The purpose of a school is to educate, not entertain. Nor is it to enable students access to content - especially during their developmental years in middle school. Exposure to content regarding discussions of violence in media should occur in a controlled, structured environment. Reading Nintendo Power alone or with a friend in the library is not a structured environment.

Middle school aged kids should not have access to this stuff without an adult. Periodicals that on their own serve no pedagogical value should not be on a school library shelf. If kids want access to other material, they can go to a public library or book store.

I disagree. Middle school kids are the target demographic for video games, especially as related to Nintendo consoles like the Wii and DS. This is part of kids' culture, much like comic books and cartoons are. Simply because a featured story covers an M-rated game doesn't mean that the magazine doesn't represent several other "E" or "T" rated games that kids might be interested in reading about. Censoring the whole magazine robs them of the choice to read about them, however.

Sure, the potential exists for them to read about the GTA game, but it's not like kids under 17 will be able to legally buy the game, so what difference does it make? Should kids be banned from watching TV at all times, since you never know where R-rated movies will show a trailer during a commercial break? Should kids not go to prom/homecoming even though it's traditional for sexual activity to follow these school-sponsored events?

I'm frankly surprised that you and Johan are so eager to treat video games as a bastard stepchild of the media, and give people who are ready to censor them special exceptions simply because of a tired "for the children" argument. It's wrong to ban the magazine, for any reason. And it's censorship, plain and simple.

[LilAbner]

As a parent, I have zero problems with this being removed from a middle school library.

[Johan]

I merely represent the right of the magazine to exist in the library.

See my response below...

However, in the case of schools, they have been fighting a losing battle of late, as several court cases have ruled in the school's favor and against the speech rights of students while on school property.

Finally, someone recognizes reality.

...so eager to treat video games as a bastard stepchild of the media...

What a load of straw-man horseshit. This isn't about video games, it's about the rights that schools have to determine the content WITHIN the schools. It IS censorship, and guess what? The courts have very consistently ruled in favor of the public schools when it comes to a whole host of such issues. You very presence on a school campus limits your free speech AND privacy rights. How so? Here's a brief list of legally supported limitations that most public schools utilize (with rare, rare exceptions made for religious and/or disability grounds...those are called IEPs or 504s, and involve students with developmental or behavioral issues who need extra help. Guess who determines their parameters? The school, with the help of psychologists and special education instructors):

* Schools determine the content of the curriculum, with teachers, the school board, local and district administrations, and some public input. You don't have the right to study something different from everyone else, or to substitute content (barring an IEP/504/religious waiver). The school determines the curriculum.

* The schools (teachers) have wide latitude in grading, and this has been supported by the courts. Try suing over a grade. Good luck. :D

* Schools determine approved MEDIA, including whether movies or games are an appropriate part of the core curriculum. If it's not approved, you have to GET it approved, or not use it. Period.

* State legislatures and state education departments determine the standards that will be addressed in the curriculum, and schools determine what content will be used to address those standards.

* Clothing restrictions, including the length of skirts, restrictions on particular color combinations, no hats, no bandannas, and on and on...

* No cellphones and/or electronic devices. Period. Not allowed.

* Your locker and/or personal property on campus may be searched at any time. Drug dogs regularly come through our school and SNIFF EVERYONE and EVERYTHING without consent. If there's a 'hit,' whether a student or a staff member, you're up shit creek without an excuse.

* No cursing, with consequences including detention and expulsion for repeated offenses.

* You WILL be where you are supposed to be at the bell, or receive disciplinary action.

* Nothing deemed detrimental to the good order and educational atmosphere of the school is allowed. The courts have broadly interpreted this to mean a whole host of restrictions.

The schools control WHAT you study, WHEN you study it, HOW it will be addressed, WHERE it will be taught, WHAT particular novels/plays/short stories/essays/poems/movies (for, say, English classes) are included and excluded, WHO will teach it to you, and the WHY of it is that the courts have consistently supported the school's underlying mission to educate OVER the rights of students to free speech and privacy.

Suing over a magazine with GTA in it? The ACLU should be suing regarding the incredible funding inequities that exist in education, or the unbelievable conditions some students have to study in (broken down buildings, gangs/violence/drugs running rampant, lack of certified teachers, and on and on).

There are REAL issues out there. This one is total bullshit. Period.

[abso]

So you're telling me that recess, selling students carnations on valentine's day, the entire sports/music/drama department, or other clearly non-pedagogical events like homecoming and prom should be eliminated from school as well? If not, then you clearly shouldn't make exceptions for an issue of Nintendo Power with a controversial game on the cover.

Those DO have pedagogical value. They teach the importance of cooperation, team work, money management, and social bonding. Plus, and this is the big one, they are done in a structured environment (with recess being the exception here, but middle school and up don't have recess anyway, they just have a lunch period.) My issue isn't with having that one issue in the library - my issue is with that magazine being in the library period. Nintendo Power, PC Gamer, and whatever other games related periodicals have no business in a school library. If they are going to be used as material in a classroom environment, then the teacher can bring in the materials needed for that discussion. Again, this results in a discussion in a structured environment. Reading about GTA, or any game, even Cooking Mama, in the school library is NOT structured. That is the problem.

I disagree. Middle school kids are the target demographic for video games, especially as related to Nintendo consoles like the Wii and DS. This is part of kids' culture, much like comic books and cartoons are. Simply because a featured story covers an M-rated game doesn't mean that the magazine doesn't represent several other "E" or "T" rated games that kids might be interested in reading about. Censoring the whole magazine robs them of the choice to read about them, however.

It doesn't rob them of anything. They can read about these games at home on the internet, or if they do not have access to the internet, at a friend's house. Or, at the public library even. Maybe a kid brings in his own copy of the magazine and friends read it during lunch. Teenagers are an emerging demographic of tobacco and beer companies as well, but that doesn't mean we put "drink bud light" posters up in the halls of a school either.

Again, let me reiterate. The issue here is that there is no valid pedagogical context by which reading about video games exists on its own. Getting laid is part of the culture of being in your 20s, but that doesn't mean that it is appropriate to screw the secretary on your desk while at work. The same is true of teenagers. Games, and technology in general, are a large part of the teenage culture. That doesn't mean it is appropriate for teenagers to have access to those materials when it is counter-productive to their being at school.

Sure, the potential exists for them to read about the GTA game, but it's not like kids under 17 will be able to legally buy the game, so what difference does it make? Should kids be banned from watching TV at all times, since you never know where R-rated movies will show a trailer during a commercial break? Should kids not go to prom/homecoming even though it's traditional for sexual activity to follow these school-sponsored events?

No, parents should fucking parent their kids. They should know what their kid is interested in and try to stay up to date on what is relevant to their kid's interests. If a teen likes playing games, then parents should know about the games their child is playing, what is coming out, and the controversies surrounding those games. Then, PRIOR to buying the game, they should have a discussion about what the game is about. Its called being a responsible parent. The same way parents used to ask "where are you going, who will you be with, etc." They should do the same thing with games.

Look, I don't care if kids read the magazine or play the games. I'm not one of those "save the children ban games" people. They just shouldn't be reading about games in the school library unless it is tied to some lesson plan. Similarly, students shouldn't be playing Halo at school, regardless of its ability to improve reaction time and spatial abilities.

I'm frankly surprised that you and Johan are so eager to treat video games as a bastard stepchild of the media, and give people who are ready to censor them special exceptions simply because of a tired "for the children" argument. It's wrong to ban the magazine, for any reason. And it's censorship, plain and simple.

Again, the purpose of a school is to educate. What the school provides should either offer pedagogical value on its own, or be used only in a context where pedagogical value can be extracted. Reading a gaming magazine, hell, even sports illustrated, in the library does not accomplish this. It has no place in a school.

And with regards to the censorship bit, the courts currently say that free speech does not apply to kids on school property as it does when they are off of school property. If you don't like that, take it up with the courts.

[murpes]

Wow, some interesting debate here.

True story: I teach middle school. On my web site, which is mostly homework and curriculum, I had a "fun" page with just some random pics. Photos of my cats, a picture of me in high school, stupid stuff to add a little variety to an otherwise drab site. I also happened to have a screen shot from World of Warcraft, very innocuous, of my toon standing on the docks at Auberdine.

I had a parent print out the screen shot along with the MSRB rating of WoW. It's rated "T" for Teen and features violence and alcohol use. They sent it along with a letter to my principal complaining that this was inappropriate for school. I was called into a meeting and told that I need to be more careful when considering what I put on my web page.

I eventually took all the fun stuff out. I *was* a good relationship builder. I was a good point of commonality with some of the kids. But screw that, this is my job and I gotta keep the boss happy. I can see my many principals are so gun shy; GTA (even articles about it) is more likely to produce parental outcry than a simple WoW screenie. I won't even talk to kids about video games now. Or music, or TV, or movies, or pretty much anything that isn't Disney. Gotta keep those parents happy, dontcha know? In the end I'm probably less of a teacher because of it, as kids are more willing to learn from you if they can relate to you somehow, but whatever. I'm not in charge.

As an aside, I overhead that parent's kid talking about how much they enjoying playing the Sims a few weeks later.

[DeuceMojo]

As an aside, I overhead that parent's kid talking about how much they enjoying playing the Sims a few weeks later.Funny. Sims, aka MMORPG-lite.

Anyway, I can see where the ACLU is coming down on this. Parents have always had problems with what their children see and hear at school, to the point where they sometimes pull their kids out to be schooled at home.

Don't like Nintendo Power or other texts/leisure reading material? There are other schools, private, boarding, home, whatever. You're an American -- man up and make a choice if you don't like what's happening.

Armchair Hitlers dictating appropriate library material has always been horseshit. ACLU isn't there to let smut into the middle school, they're just there to keep the gatekeepers able to do their job.

[Johan]

I eventually took all the fun stuff out. I *was* a good relationship builder. I was a good point of commonality with some of the kids. But screw that, this is my job and I gotta keep the boss happy.

Welcome to the fold. Education has become a cluster-fuck precisely because of stuff like this lawsuit, and like you described.

Again, the purpose of a school is to educate.

Far too many see the schools as a one-stop shop for picking up the pieces of what parents/families have failed at.

[TeeCakes]

While I'm mostly just playing Devil's Advocate in this thread, I still can't quite wrap my head around the idea of banning an issue of Nintendo Power being done for the benefit of students. This is a move to keep parents happy, if anything-- I'd be willing to bet most students are very much against banning the mag, themselves.

And think about the repercussions of the act-- why is it wrong to ban Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn , which are ultimately just other forms of media quite like any other book or magazine (meaning they aren't textbooks and aren't teaching skills to students, they're meant for entertainment purposes)? Why is it okay to ban Nintendo Power, if you've make allowances for keeping other controversial entertainment media in the school library? Who gets to draw that line, and how do you go about doing so? I don't think it should be left up to a sole individual like the school's principal, by any means, but perhaps the PTA could vote on it as a whole governing body so everyone's voice is heard on the matter.

And no pedagogical value is a stretch. Surely, there are a number of kids going to school that are interested in finding jobs in the videogaming industry-- one of the fastest growing, most rewarding job markets in the world-- or the magazine/periodical business, even. Taking away the Nintendo Power from these industry-mindful kids is just like taking away Sports Illustrated from the jocks, or removing fiction novels/poetry from future literary artists. Which is again not helping kids so much as it is trying to please parents first and foremost. Is this really the way a school should operate?

[XxSATANxX]

Wow this turned into a neat thread. Really feel awful for the teachers. My father hated teachers and treated them really crappy. As a result although I went to one of Americas best High Schools I was a dismal failure at school. In my house we respect teachers and have gotten the reward of 2 A honor role students!

I think some of these things are uniquely American. Schools in Asia, Europe are run like boot camps and teachers have far reaching powers to make rules. I visted the website of this school and was impressed with all it offered. If the school or staff want to step in and make change I'm pretty sure they are motivated by the best intentions. FYI they had Twain,Catcher etc available along with many issues of Nintendo Power.

To Murpes: Awful story....I asume you are male, sucks man but I wouldn't post personal info on the "fun" page. Maybe someone was not getting the right read.

[Johan]

Taking away the Nintendo Power from these industry-mindful kids is just like taking away Sports Illustrated from the jocks, or removing fiction novels/poetry from future literary artists.

They're in MIDDLE SCHOOL for God's sake. They're not "industry-mindful kids" or "future literary artists." Many middle-schoolers are not even teens yet, and you want a mature-rated game to prepare them for working in the gaming industry? In a magazine geared to SELLING them the game, not preparing them for an industry career, for God's sake!

Please. Buy a clue. Please. Find a Sony story to fight! :D

[Virtuoso]

I wonder if the ACLU sits around and wonders, gee, why does a lot of America think we're a bunch of douchebags? It's a damn magazine for crying out loud. You're really going to sue over a glorified ad?

Thankfully, you've got a group of people willing to protect your rights even though you think they are "a bunch of douchebags". They will continue to protect your right to criticize them or any other organization, no matter how lowly you think of them.

[Virtuoso]

Welcome to the fold. Education has become a cluster-fuck precisely because of stuff like this lawsuit, and like you described.

Wait a second, what?

The lawsuit, and what this gentleman described are opposite examples. The lawsuit is attempting to alleviate censorship, he is giving you an example of censorship being absurd. How can both be a problem? Either censorship is a problem or it isn't. It would seem that in his case you would agree with the school.

Either way, schools should be formats for learning, creativity, and freedom. Instead they are ways to indoctrinate young citizens into our consumer culture. I didn't learn anything in high school that I didn't read on my own, and with art and music programs being cut like everything else, they are getting worse and worse. Add to that the inequities caused by property-tax based funding and the horrors of "no child left behind" tests, and the education system in this country is fucked.

[Johan]

How can both be a problem?

:sigh:

That's exactly the point. The schools are, in many ways, ground zero for the idiocy of our society, pulling in every direction and forgetting the central mission of the schools...to educate kids.

They will continue to protect your right to criticize them or any other organization, no matter how lowly you think of them.

My heroes. Thank goodness for them. I'm so glad they're willing to fight the good fight over this RIDICULOUS issue of a magazine.

:gag:

[Virtuoso]

:sigh:

That's exactly the point. The schools are, in many ways, ground zero for the idiocy of our society, pulling in every direction and forgetting the central mission of the schools...to educate kids.

... but it would seem that to you, a screencap of WoW would have no appropriate context for anything school related and should be removed, ala this issue of Nintendo Power. I still don't see how your position in any way allows for what he did, and it would seem that the school's censorship would be right up your alley.

Also, I still have no idea why you hate the ACLU. They disagree with prayer in school, and as someone religious I could see why you could resent them for that. However, if I were a public school teacher and held a 5 minute "there is no God" meeting before class I am sure you would be quite unhappy with me.

Regardless, this conversation has gotten too off topic. Lets try to get back on topic a bit.

[Johan]

... but it would seem that to you, a screencap of WoW would have no appropriate context for anything school related and should be removed, ala this issue of Nintendo Power.

I'm so glad there are still people around who are telepathic. It's amazing how you can do that. Truly stunning.

I still have no idea why you hate the ACLU.

THIS STORY is one example! You have a way of avoiding what is painfully obvious.

They disagree with prayer in school, and as someone religious I could see why you could resent them for that.

I don't give a shit about that. We have a 'moment of silence' during which time you can do whatever the hell you want that's quiet. Knock yourself out.

However, if I were a public school teacher and held a 5 minute "there is no God" meeting before class I am sure you would be quite unhappy with me.

Again, you're amazingly telepathic! We have that at our school. Nobody gives a shit.

Regardless, this conversation has gotten too off topic. Lets try to get back on topic a bit.

Now that you've had your off-topic entry, let's get back on? :confused:

The problem with our schools? THIS TYPE OF SHIT. Seriously...a lawsuit over a fucking video game magazine, when we have as high as perhaps a 50% failure rate in graduating students with diplomas.

Thank God we're focused on the important stuff.

[Virtuoso]

Now that you've had your off-topic entry, let's get back on? :confused:

Yeah, we've each had two, and now we are even. So enough.

[modeps]

I think all of you are wrong. Schools are no longer used for education, they're just full time state run (in the case of publics) day care centers.


;)

[shpankey]

What a colossal waste of time and resources.

[Chimp]

I think all of you are wrong. Schools are no longer used for education, they're just full time state run (in the case of publics) day care centers.


;)

This.

BTW, Modeps, the high school I recently vacated was in your state :).

[Venkman]

I'm so glad the ACLU is around to keep our legal system busy.