On the Ethics of Pirating

[Virtuoso]

Ok, not to start a shitstorm, but today I found myself doing something I do not do regularly. I was torrenting a game.

This is not something that I regularly do, but I was placed in kind of a pickle. The game is Baldur's Gate, and the reason why I pirated it is because I could not find a way to purchase it without tracking down a disc copy. Now there will be people that say I should've just bought it online second hand, but none of that money goes to the developer, so downloading it for free doesn't hurt them. Besides that, the publisher no longer exists.

I guess the question is - do you all find it unethical to pirate games that are no longer in print or are very difficult to find? If so, or if not, why? What makes this kind of piracy different from downloading the newest releases? Discuss.

[Amalor]

Well Amazon seems to have a comp DVD-ROM available but that's not really the question ;) Personally I feel if you owned the game at any time you have a right to play it in any form you please. If a game is truly abandoned I think you may play it via download too. Baldur's Gate is kinda grey to me but I'd say if you like it give Bioware some business and buy one of their readily available games. Lastly I say be careful, torrents can contain more that you bargain for sometimes, keep the AV soft running brother. Hope you enjoy Baldur's Gate :)

[PathMaster]

BG should be in a collection that Gogamer sells.

[zeonxavier]

I may be wrong, but I believe the Baldur's Gate series is available on Gametap for you legal eagles out there. Hope that helps.

[Evil Avatar]

BG should be in a collection that Gogamer sells.

That was the first thing I checked and it looked like they were sold out of all the different Baldur's Gate collections, but I didn't think to check for a 'Best of Interplay' or a 'Best RPG' collection.

If you are at all interested in owning a CD, you might want to give GoGamer a browse.

[Hapless]

All's fair in love, war and internet piracy.

[baz]

They should so stick those games on steam. Packs that BG+Exp/BG2+Exp or Icewind Dale packs would sell like mad.

I checked on www.play.com, and you can get the sealed 4 in 1 compilation there from some individual traders (like amazon marketplace) for about £12. Which considering the state of the pound isn't too bad.

[Lard]

If the game is out of print and unavailable online to buy, then there's no harm in it, because they wouldn't have gotten the money no matter what you did.

[Virtuoso]

I may be wrong, but I believe the Baldur's Gate series is available on Gametap for you legal eagles out there. Hope that helps.

With GameTap you don't actually own it though.

Buying from an individual doesn't count to me, because it in no way helps the developer.

The "Best of" collections are all pretty much sold out.

[JazGalaxy]

Well, for games that have no current copyright, or the developers have gone out of business and failed to transfer their properties to a new holder, it has been the place of the games community to consider them "abandonware".

there are sites like abandonia that feature nothing but pages and pages of amazing "A" level games with no current owners.

However, this is usually done on the level of public knowledge and probably features more than a few games that DO have owners.

I personally feel that you should do your best to buy the game but if you really can't find it anywhere but used then downloading is the same thing. it's like a friend saying "hey, I don't play this game anymore you can have it". But, that's just a personal Karma sort of rationalization for it.

[pwnophobia]

there are sites like abandonia that feature nothing but pages and pages of amazing "A" level games with no current owners.


Dude, you are AWESOME.

I didn't know a site like this existed and I jumped onto it and got hit with some fierce nostalgia and proceeded to download;

http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/203/Alien+Carnage+-+Halloween+Harry.html

[JazGalaxy]

I know, right?

I think the main thing that strikes me when I go to that site is just the sheer breadth of subject matter in the games they used to make versus the games they make today.

Also intersting is the literally beginnings of games in text adventure form had a huge influence on earlier games, and games in general took much of their inspiration from novels as opposed to our current dogged fixation with trying to make games that resemble movies.

[drakkarim]

Dude, you are AWESOME.


SECONDED!

i can finally try to play through Might & Magic from head to toe.

... on my laptop!

[Windsong]

Baldurs Gate is, what, 1997? Abandonware? Maybe not, but close enough for me.

[lost]

I'm surprised Good Old Games doesn't have the Baldur's Gate Series up yet.

[Chimpbot]

I'm surprised Good Old Games doesn't have the Baldur's Gate Series up yet.

Quickly, to the GOG Phone! We must amend this situation posthaste!

[zeonxavier]

Yeah, GOG was the first place I looked when I came across this thread.

Unfortunately, no luck there.

[biosc1]

Only problem I have is that Interplay games do not show up on Gametap for Canadians...

GoG is a good place to find classics, but even there, there are some major ones missing.

[lost]

They seem to be getting games in odd batches. Also asking just a little too much for me.

Abandonware and DOSbox gives that 10 minutes of nostalgia.

I recently downloaded Jedi Academy and don't feel bad about it. The game is only available second-hand now. I used to own a copy but have lost it. Also, it's my favorite Star Wars game by a mile. The real "Force Unleashed".

[WpnX]

If you owned it at one point, it's fair game IMHO.

If you didn't, feel free to torrent it, then buy a t-shirt (http://store.bioware.com/products/bioware/tshirt.html). I'm sure Bioware would consider that transaction even-Stephen.

At least that's what Tim Schafer said on 1UP FM regarding residuals on Psychonauts.

[WpnX]

I recently downloaded Jedi Academy and don't feel bad about it. The game is only available second-hand now. I used to own a copy but have lost it. Also, it's my favorite Star Wars game by a mile. The real "Force Unleashed".

I legally owned Academy, and still feel bad about it.

This is because I purchased a terrible game. DF2:JK FTW!

[Blog]

I legally owned Academy, and still feel bad about it.

This is because I purchased a terrible game. DF2:JK FTW!Hey, you stole my exact post, you post stealer, you!

[JazGalaxy]

I legally owned Academy, and still feel bad about it.

This is because I purchased a terrible game. DF2:JK FTW!

This is getting wayyy off topic but DF2 is one of those games that is NOT a good game by any stretch of imagination but had such amazing moments that outweighed the crapiness.

I remember my friend watching me play the Nar Shadda level where I was constantly obliterated by snipers I had no hope of seeing. He couldn't understand why I was still playing but I had to explain to him that, besides the crap like that... there was good stuff to the game.

[Roc Ingersol]

It's a slippery slope to equate the moral correctness of piracy to whether the developers do/can get paid.

If "I would have bought used, thereby not rewarding the devs anyway" was a valid position, then anyone who buys used games as a matter of course would have a moral greenlight to pirate everything, even stuff that's still on shelves. Certainly that's how most pirates operate: downloading things they'd have never purchased 'new' anyway. But any argument that puts them morally in the right is suspect in my book.

And adding "well I can't find BG in stores" doesn't change the preceding argument. I think it actually supersedes it. I think you simply have to make an honest effort to buy a real copy, regardless of the source.

Even if you buy used - that might not help the developer, but it helps the whole ecosystem. If people know there's a used market, they're more likely to buy new. Your $10 for Baldur's Gate might never reach Bioware, but a demand for used copies of Baldur's Gate makes more people more likely to pick up Dragon Age.

Indeed that's an effect that market research has seen borne out with the rise of second-hand CD and record stores. And I suspect if we were to look closely at the rise of Gamestop we'd see the same thing (much as I hate them). Knowing I could get $40 for Halo 2 so long after its release certainly factored into my decision to grab Halo 3, even though Halo 2 itself didn't really blow my skirt up.

I don't think you're obligated to search to the ends of the earth, or attempt bargains with shady folks across the internet. But if there's a reasonably reputable seller with a copy, I think you're morally obligated to take that route.

[lockwoodx]

Piracy has two sides of the coin for me.

On one hand piracy saved me from buying some titles that were utter crap, and thus saving me from hating the entire brand/publisher and hurting them in the long run.

On the other hand, even pieces of crap pay the bills for the next hidden gem and support hard working families.

This is why I think people hold and bear grudges aginst MMORPGS with such venom.

1 you can't pirate them to try them so you're stuck with a stinker if they change x/y/z/ game mechanics.

2 they not only wasted your money, but your time if they are duds.

[Alexious]

Personally, DRM is the deciding factor for me. Whenever I hear the word "Starforce" associated with a game I'll just head straight for the torrent sites. You're not putting that trojan horse on my machine and I'm not going to reward you with my hard earned cash either.

I guess it's a "chicken and the egg" sort of problem... when you stop treating me like a criminal I'll stop acting like one.

[Philonious]

Personally, DRM is the deciding factor for me. Whenever I hear the word "Starforce" associated with a game I'll just head straight for the torrent sites. You're not putting that trojan horse on my machine and I'm not going to reward you with my hard earned cash either.

I guess it's a "chicken and the egg" sort of problem... when you stop treating me like a criminal I'll stop acting like one.

This is only a valid argument if you bought the game in the first place... Like using a NOCD Crack because you hate having to look for/swap discs. If you're playing a game that is available at retail/dowload/however you should have paid for it at some point.

[Blog]

Personally, DRM is the deciding factor for me. Whenever I hear the word "Starforce" associated with a game I'll just head straight for the torrent sites. You're not putting that trojan horse on my machine and I'm not going to reward you with my hard earned cash either.

I guess it's a "chicken and the egg" sort of problem... when you stop treating me like a criminal I'll stop acting like one.That's a bullshit excuse and a feeble attempt to justify your piracy.

If you place value on the game, buy it. Don't want Starforce, or some other "trojan horse" on your system (Groovy, neither do I!), buy the game and then download the torrent.

If you place value on a game, and you must or you wouldn't waste your time downloading it and/or playing it, then give the creators something of value for their work.

There's no such thing a "good excuse" to pirate a game without compensating the creator.

[drakkarim]

There's no such thing a "good excuse" to pirate a game without compensating the creator.

...even if its Daikatana?

[Virtuoso]

It's a slippery slope to equate the moral correctness of piracy to whether the developers do/can get paid.

If "I would have bought used, thereby not rewarding the devs anyway" was a valid position, then anyone who buys used games as a matter of course would have a moral greenlight to pirate everything, even stuff that's still on shelves. Certainly that's how most pirates operate: downloading things they'd have never purchased 'new' anyway. But any argument that puts them morally in the right is suspect in my book.

And adding "well I can't find BG in stores" doesn't change the preceding argument. I think it actually supersedes it. I think you simply have to make an honest effort to buy a real copy, regardless of the source.

Even if you buy used - that might not help the developer, but it helps the whole ecosystem. If people know there's a used market, they're more likely to buy new. Your $10 for Baldur's Gate might never reach Bioware, but a demand for used copies of Baldur's Gate makes more people more likely to pick up Dragon Age.

Indeed that's an effect that market research has seen borne out with the rise of second-hand CD and record stores. And I suspect if we were to look closely at the rise of Gamestop we'd see the same thing (much as I hate them). Knowing I could get $40 for Halo 2 so long after its release certainly factored into my decision to grab Halo 3, even though Halo 2 itself didn't really blow my skirt up.

I don't think you're obligated to search to the ends of the earth, or attempt bargains with shady folks across the internet. But if there's a reasonably reputable seller with a copy, I think you're morally obligated to take that route.

I suppose what I meant was: if the ONLY avenue to purchase it is used, then its OK to pirate it.

And slippery slope arguments are empirically untrue. People once said if we allowed abortion we world eventually be killing the handicapped in the streets. That may be an extreme example, but as a general rule the slippery slope does not exist.

[Alexious]

That's a bullshit excuse and a feeble attempt to justify your piracy...There's no such thing a "good excuse" to pirate a game without compensating the creator.

Well, if this creator had half a brain and would drop his/her 20th century business model of discs, boxes, stores and bullshit DRM, we wouldn't have a problem. I buy tons of games on Steam, Impulse... and the Penny Arcade one... forget the name. Then they could drop their prices significantly too.

The music industry is already proving that if you make your content conveniently available at a reasonable price you CAN compete with the less convenient piracy route.

[Blog]

Well, if this creator had half a brain and would drop his/her 20th century business model of discs, boxes, stores and bullshit DRM, we wouldn't have a problem. I buy tons of games on Steam, Impulse... and the Penny Arcade one... forget the name. Then they could drop their prices significantly too.I think you mean "publisher" here. If a creator creates something of value, they deserve compensation.The music industry is already proving that if you make your content conveniently available at a reasonable price you CAN compete with the less convenient piracy route.I wholeheartedly agree that game publishers need to pull their heads out of their collective asses and 'get with the times'. I'm just don't think downloading their stuff for free is a productive part of that process.

[Ulysses]

Eh, if the game's out of print, downloading it is fine. I'd prefer to get a box for BG2 or at least the manuals, that's just me.

[MADxMrMike]

I just had to comment on this as I find it so funny how gamers act toward this subject. Its like everyone wants to walk the "grey line" when it comes to commenting on piracy. Me personally I pirate more shit then Jack Sparrow in a warehouse full of treasure chests. I'm not going to sit here and lie to anyone about it. Is it wrong? Of course! Do I care?? Well of course I care! haha But this is the shit I put myself through. Ive always been like this I suppose. Self loathing. Telling myself that I must stop but knowing that I never will. Feeling that little sting of regret as I click on the torrent link to start the download, but then having that feeling wash away as I play Bioshock or Dead Space for free.

Now I do not pirate every game I own, and I do not mention that to appease some of you. I could care less what you people think of me(of course we all know thats not true or else I wouldn't have cared to post this but still I must lie to myself so please bare with me). Its just a fact. Most of the games I own now Ive bought. Well pretty much all the console games. But anyway back to the question of ethics. Yes it is unethical to pirate peoples hard work(games, music, movies...treasure). Will I ever stop? Probably not. Do I hate myself a little? Yes, but Ive been doing that for years so what else is new.

[Johan]

Pirates are entitlement leeches who haven't grown up enough to either afford the content they enjoy, or to realize that they shouldn't steal it if they cannot afford it.

...even if its Daikatana?

You found an exception to the "no pirating" rule! However, that game is more of a virus than anything else, from all I've heard. :D

[retsudo]

That's a bullshit excuse and a feeble attempt to justify your piracy.

If you place value on the game, buy it. Don't want Starforce, or some other "trojan horse" on your system (Groovy, neither do I!), buy the game and then download the torrent.

If you place value on a game, and you must or you wouldn't waste your time downloading it and/or playing it, then give the creators something of value for their work.

There's no such thing a "good excuse" to pirate a game without compensating the creator.

IMO thats a bullshit rationalisation:
If you buy the game anyway then they'll keep putting starforce and other restrictive DRM on it and future titles. The only choice that will influence developers towards not putting DRM / starforce is not buying the game. This is entirely separate to whether or not you then pirate the game.

[see colon]

You found an exception to the "no pirating" rule! However, that game is more of a virus than anything else, from all I've heard. :D

I'm not going to say Daikatona is a good game or anything, but it's not as bad as the internet makes it out to be. It was broken on release, for sure, and had some gameplay mechanics that were... curious. And it wasn't graphically spectacular at the time either. But once it was fully patched the game was playable, and I know a few people who really enjoyed it. The sad fact is I know even more people who have never played it and rag on it rather consistently. It's not like we are talking about trespasser here!

[Lard]

That's a bullshit excuse and a feeble attempt to justify your piracy.

If you place value on the game, buy it.

If a game comes with Securom, you are morally obligated to pirate it.

Anybody that would put that crap in their game, stuff that deliberately infects computers and is impossible to get rid of, deserves to be stolen from.

That said, if you can find a DRM free copy of a game, you should buy it.

[drakkarim]

If a game comes with Securom, you are morally obligated to pirate it.

Anybody that would put that crap in their game, stuff that deliberately infects computers and is impossible to get rid of, deserves to be stolen from.

That said, if you can find a DRM free copy of a game, you should buy it.

while i may dislike securom and its limitations/activations/crapola, what i despise with a passion is what games like Dawn of War 2 have.

the "MUST install <insert sponsor crapware here> to play the game, and allow the sponsor to nag you every time you want to play the singleplayer portion offline."

my brother bought DoW2 and that shit pisses us both off. he's sending me the game when he gets done with singleplayer. No way i'm paying for that crap.

one sale lost.

then when i'm done with singleplayer, i'm ebaying it.

another sale lost.

disappointing to say the least. had he waited long enough to know that it will work that way, he'd have bought it used too, months down the road.

[see colon]

drakkarim, are you talking about Steam?

[drakkarim]

drakkarim, are you talking about Steam?

the retails copy of DoW2 (i believe) requires you to install the microsoft live engine doesn't it? brother said it keeps nagging you to create an online profile for all the 'benefits' everytime he wants to play a single player session.

i don't know what steam does, i would never buy a full retail game through them.

[see colon]

Steam does similar stuff. You get a "Steam News" pop-up every time you launch the program, and sometimes have to be signed in to do things like enter offline mode. Plus, it has some opt-in (and sometimes not opt-in ) spyware like features where it tracks what you play and how long, can capture your system specs (with permission), and has your friends lists publicly available. I'm not ragging on Steam. In fact, I rather like the fact that I can install my games to as many machines as I prefer, never have to look for a disk or scour the internet for a patch, and it has built in spyware-like features where you can view what others have played and for how long, and who their friends are (useful when you get buddy requests from people you aren't sure if you really know or not).

I thought I remembered hearing that DoW2 was going to use Steam for DRM, but never really followed that story because... well, I've owned DoW since it was released, and it's still shrink-wrapped.

[Lard]

I guess the question is - do you all find it unethical to pirate games that are no longer in print or are very difficult to find? If so, or if not, why?

No. Abandonware doesn't hurt anyone.

[Indian_Gamer]

Despite Bangalore being crowned the silicon valley of India, it is extremely difficult to find games here. Normally titles are available in upscale malls and retail shops 6-8 months after American launch dates.

They are available on the shelf at a premium rates, and cost some thing like 15-20 % ($ 60) of total salary a jock earns in a month ($500). Problem combination of late arrival and non-sensical pricing, pirating is the only available option. Pirated titles are available for a Dollar and will include crack and no secure-rom issues.

As an avid gamer, I am frustrated to find pirated titles available on the street which work flawlessly, but the ones available in the malls/supermarkets are either unavailable or do not work as intended.

I do not support Piracy in general, when I worked in US and Singapore, I happily bought many titles for the box-art and to support the developers. But after coming back to Bangalore I am left with no option other than buying stuff off the streets.