ITT-Tech Green Bay Game Dev School Q&A

[Evil Avatar]

Gamecloud has posted an interview (http://www.gamecloud.com/article.php?article_id=1189) with long-time EvilAvatar.com reader (and former Raven Software and Radical team member) Ben Geisler, talking about his planned game development school.

Gamecloud: What will make the program that you are developing at ITT Tech Green Bay different from previous game development schools?

Ben Geisler At ITT-Tech Green Bay, we are working hard to create a different kind of learning experience, one that is catered towards the real world application of game development. We want to give students the tools they need to make a good game. Some of the things we do on a daily basis in the games industry are never taught in schools.

When you're making a game, you go to any means necessary to make it fun. Tools such as C++, Maya and Photoshop are only tools. There is no gospel to game development, just as there is no silver bullet to game design. If the tools you have don't work or the design is flawed, then you must hack away until the "fun" is finally accomplished. Except that "hacking", in this sense, is not a dirty word. It is part of development and completely necessary.There is an art and science to this process, and that is what we will bring to game developer education.

[Serapth]

Not sure your about in the States, but here in Canada these degree's are mostly laughed at. ( Not gaming degree's, ITT Tech, Westervelt, etc... degree's).

If its valid or not is sorta beside the point, there is a bit of a negative perception of these programs.

[Heretic Machine]

There are a couple of things I am curious about with this:

1. How much emphasis is on math?
2. What is required to enroll?
3. How much money does it cost, and would federal financial aid cover it?

EDIT: Seraph, if you knew anything about Universities in the US, you'd laugh at every degree you saw.

[Nesta]

No, ITT Tech degrees are pretty laughable here as well. If the person knows their stuff and can't afford a major college CompSci degree, it will at least allow them to get a foot in the door at IT interviews. But it's not good for that much more unless you can find a company that knows next to nothing about hiring IT workers.

[Heretic Machine]

Nesta, I don't konw what world you're living in, but most people I know with CS degrees are out of work. Mostly because CS degrees primairly teach theory rather than application, and so they are near useless in the workplace. You might as well just sit at home and teach yourself how to do this stuff and make a nice portfolio of work and then go out and find a job. At least, that's what I've heard.

[mechanodroid]

Coming into this job, I knew of this reputation for ITT.

My primary goal now is to change it from the grass roots level. Not all ITT techs are equivalent, it's about who is doing what and where.

Here at ITT Tech Green Bay we're thinking more in line with "how do we catch up to full sail". We're making some good headway in fact. Currently the students are learning Torque, Radiant (SoF2), Doom3 editing, and a variety of programming, art and design courses. They are learning what crunch mode is all about and in the process learning a TON about design. It's a HUGE undertaking for me and for the students. The standards I hold them at are closer to the standards I expect coming from A) industry and B) a top-10 CS school- uw madison. I think it's all about standards, no one wants to put out a game demo that is crap, it just won't get you hired and gives us a bad name.

We're already getting developer respect (most likely this could be credited to the fact that I AM still a developer).

The proof is in the pudding, here is our website and you can decide for yourselves how worthwhile it is http://www.doom3dpoopart.net/
There is no reason we can't be as good as digipen or full sail, if we keep getting the right people involved.

We've got Eric Holmes of Radical coming to talk on Monday and last month we had Mike Renner of Raven (Quake 4). The first step is to get qualified people into the industry, and we're at the cusp of this...


--Ben Geisler (ITT Tech- former Raven Programmer- sof2, jk2, q4, xmen legends and Radical- Hulk, current freelance programmer)

[Serapth]

Welcome to the board Ben, and good luck with the program.

The one really nice thing about the game industry, is the school itself doesnt matter near as much as in other fields. If by the time your students graduate they have an effective portfolio to show potential employers, that means more then most pieces of paper.

Even your closest competition is unproven or has a shaky reputation. Places like AI, Digipen, Full Sail, etc. More or less alot of the time it comes down to the "big names" signed up to teach at the school as to how respected it is.

I am a bit suprised to to see any of the big three on your list. Max, Maya or SI. As to teaching programming, I remember watching fellow students spend semesters trying to grasp simple concepts like pointers. I would be imagine the learning curve here would be MUCH MUCH higher :)

Is C++ the only language your teaching, or do you start students off with higher level languages?

[mechanodroid]

Welcome to the board Ben, and good luck with the program.

Thanks for the warm welcome. I've actually been here before, what seems like ages ago to a developer is actually only like 2 years ago- while I was working on quake 4. But I forgot my logon somehow. Anyway...

Max, Maya or SI.

Actually we DO teach these, well Max and Maya at least- we do not touch softimage. My impression from being inside the industry is that it's dying. I mentioned Torque, Radiant and all that since those are our primary level editors.


As to teaching programming, I remember watching fellow students spend semesters trying to grasp simple concepts like pointers. I would be imagine the learning curve here would be MUCH MUCH higher :)


We teach alot of torque script, and I'm also delving into teaching doom3 script which I'm familiar with from my time at Raven. Hopefully we'll also be teaching Lua soon. Lua is used quite heavily in industry so I want to teach it.

Is C++ the only language your teaching, or do you start students off with higher level languages?[/QUOTE]

[jeffool]

Screw the naysayers Ben, good luck with it. And for the record, I went to Full Sail (never did get 'in', fyi,) and pointers there took two, maaaybe three days.

/edited: to point out that it was my fault that I haven't get 'in'. I'm not one of those whiney bitches who acts as if it was the school's place to get me a job. I screwed up, and hope to straighten myself out.

Funny, the edit is longer than the post.

[TheKeck]

Nesta, I don't konw what world you're living in, but most people I know with CS degrees are out of work. Mostly because CS degrees primairly teach theory rather than application, and so they are near useless in the workplace. You might as well just sit at home and teach yourself how to do this stuff and make a nice portfolio of work and then go out and find a job. At least, that's what I've heard.

As a CS grad, I'm going to have to disagree with that. :cool:

[Serapth]

Thanks for the warm welcome. I've actually been here before, what seems like ages ago to a developer is actually only like 2 years ago- while I was working on quake 4. But I forgot my logon somehow. Anyway...

Dont worry, that isnt just being a developer... thats called getting old! I swear new years 2000 was just last year! :)


Actually we DO teach these, well Max and Maya at least- we do not touch softimage. My impression from being inside the industry is that it's dying. I mentioned Torque, Radiant and all that since those are our primary level editors.


Thats odd with Softimage, as I was under the impression it was at the pinnacle of its adoption in the gaming world, and with XSI, I figured it would be an eppealing option being free and all ( for the students atleast ). That said, im not a big SI fan, so meh :) Lightwave seems to be the app that went from being dominant in the gaming world, to almost non existant.

Are Torque and Radiant the choices because of pricing issues more then anything else? I havent seen torque in years, but the last time I saw the code it was a bit of a mess. I definatly wouldnt want to teach around it. Panda3D seems about ideal to teaching people engines as thats basically the purpose of it these days, although it has been used in commerical games.


We teach alot of torque script, and I'm also delving into teaching doom3 script which I'm familiar with from my time at Raven. Hopefully we'll also be teaching Lua soon. Lua is used quite heavily in industry so I want to teach it.


So is it a one track course? Or do you have an artist track, a programmer track and a level design track? Agreed though LUA is nice, popular and pretty easy to pick up. ( More then anything its easy as hell to embed into just about anything. Ive even used it in my more recent non-gaming stuff ). Do you eventually get into more complicated programming, or do you mostly stick to scripting?

[Serapth]

Screw the naysayers Ben, good luck with it. And for the record, I went to Full Sail (never did get 'in', fyi,) and pointers there took two, maaaybe three days.

Two things. When I mentioned pointers taking so much time for students to get 1) I was talking about a traditional CS degree, thats what I took and 2) I wasnt talking about how long they were teaching it for, im talking how long into the program until students actually understood. Many still graduated not understanding and our burn drop out rate was staggering.

Frankly, I think very little of my education anyways. I took me 7 years to finally go get my piece of paper, and that was just because I needed it for legal reasons.

[jeffool]

Ahhhh, okay. I was worried to be honest. For us it was more of a 'understand how the function' one day, and then 'why' the next. I assume most folks got it quickly, but maybe that's because we were all so gungho to learn it all. That was before the sleep deprivation hit.

[emperordahc]

Rule #1: Good programmers aren't taught. Like artists and musicians, they're born.

If you're not already up until 4am chest deep in C++ (for programmers) or scripting (for designers) on your own, you'll never make it.

Go to school to learn to work in a group and get the stupid piece of paper to get the job. No school can teach talent.

Hope it works out!

[Jake]

Ben, drop me a line would you?

Jake

[jwbxx]

I bet after taking a quarter of classes. You could probably make a better game than star wars galaxies as your final project.

[*Legion*]

No school can teach tallent.

Apparently they can't teach spelling either.

[Heretic Machine]

Apparently they can't teach spelling either.

...do you have a point, asswipe?

[pomeroy]

I thought it was sorta funny.

[amusedtoe]

No, ITT Tech degrees are pretty laughable here as well. If the person knows their stuff and can't afford a major college CompSci degree, it will at least allow them to get a foot in the door at IT interviews. But it's not good for that much more unless you can find a company that knows next to nothing about hiring IT workers.

Well if that's the case you're probably better off studying on your own and using the money to get every certification you can.

[Serapth]

Well if that's the case you're probably better off studying on your own and using the money to get every certification you can.


Good god no! Certs are worse, by far! With a few possible exceptions ( very few ) most certs are a freaking joke. Especially any certification that starts with MC. They are bought and traded more then a cheap whore in a back alley. Most certs can be picked up by with a few weeks of brainwashi... er, training and a written test. Again there are exceptions, but not many.

Also, when you see things like MCSD or MCSE whatever, required on a job description, its a pretty much a crock of shit. Even Microsoft lists it as a requirement for some jobs, and I know people who have been hired by them without such certs. For the most part, most certs are just a form of resume masterbation.

In the long run, nothing beats experience. The paper you get from school just gets your foot in that first door. After you have a year or two under your belt your certifications or paper mean jack shit, unless your applying for a work visa somewhere, and even that is easy enough to get around.

[amusedtoe]

Yes, but that experience thing is the problem to begin with since without those cheap pieces of paper no one will even give you a second look for the worst job.

[Serapth]

Yes, but that experience thing is the problem to begin with since without those cheap pieces of paper no one will even give you a second look for the worst job.


Oh, no, I agree. And by no means is the stupid piece of paper cheap! :)

To get your foot in the door, from my experience, you need atleast a diploma of some form. If not that, you need to have one hell of a portfolio. Im not saying people shouldnt go to school, im just saying dont expect much :)


SIDE NOTE: Go to school regardless, you will miss out on a lot of shit that has nothing to do with your education that you will regret later. Everyone one of my friends I keep in contact that either dropped out of or didnt go to university now regrets it. Many of these people are quite successful, but they still feel they missed out. I hated my education, but I didnt hate the experience. I learned alot and made alot of contacts that are useful to this day, but I didnt really learn a damned thing I went to school for :)

[Hellstorm]

I don't see anything wrong with gaming schools. Digipen is okay, but you have to deal with Claude Comair who I have heard, multiple times, is a huge a-hole.

Full Sail is okay but waaaaaay to expensive. Overall this is something really new and I don't see one place having a huge advantage over another, other than price and if the degrees are tracked: Game design, Art, Programming.

[GreenIce]

...do you have a point, asswipe?

I think his point is that you may or may not be a little high strung good sire

[Taco]

I got my foot in the door without day in college when I was 20. Four years later I'm doing good :).

But I lucked out getting my foot in the door, I was able to step right into a pretty heavy Sys Admin job and didn't have to go through the regular Tech Support/Help Desk roles.

That said, when a company has a new opening and they get flooded with 50 similiar resumes are they going to interview every one of them? No, the first thing they do is toss the ones without a college education. Maybe not fair, but it's the most effective way to thin that stack down. I'm also sure I'll have a much harder time cracking into management without that piece of paper.

As far as teaching talent, I think most employers realize they don't. What college can be a reflection on is one's ability to set and meet long term goals, their dedication to their craft, responsibility and things like that.

But I'm a high school dropout(damn Everquest), what do I know ;).

As far as gaming schools. Seems to me that there are not a lot of jobs out there compared to other career paths and it's something I'd never want to lock myself into. I'd imagine there are other degrees that are much broader in scope that still apply to gaming.

[Worldcrafter]

Nesta, I don't konw what world you're living in, but most people I know with CS degrees are out of work. Mostly because CS degrees primairly teach theory rather than application, and so they are near useless in the workplace.

As a CS grad from a liberal arts school where they did teach a lot of theory, I'm going to have to disagree as well. I got a sysadmin job straight out of school. Of course, it helps that I spent a lot of time out of class working on my computer and playing around with Linux (which is the OS that runs our business).

However, from what I have heard, the best way to get into the gaming industry is to create a nice portfolio, like you say. My hope is to one day be a part of the gaming industry, but for the time being I can only build small games and custom levels for Half-Life 2 in my free time.

[mechanodroid]

The piece of paper gets you in the door. Without it, you often can't even do that. This is just how the industry is now, it was different years ago... but now the stakes have raised.

Once you are in the door (at the interview) you need to prove yourself- and this is where your porfolio comes in, in the case of game development you need a strong mod/level or full game. So I'm pushing my students for this. I don't think it's realistic to expect to be hired _without_ some piece of software to show off your design skills.

So in short, degrees are NOT useless, they get you in the door and give you the tools you need to produce the portfolio/game.

[Serapth]

So in short, degrees are NOT useless, they get you in the door and give you the tools you need to produce the portfolio/game.

Until you land a job :) Then the usefulness is quickly replaced by Job experience. Plus frankly, some guy that is working today that has 10 years of experience, people arent going to care if he has paper or not. Downside is, you arent going to get 10 years ( or even 1 year ) of experience these days without paper.

[Taco]

If you have 50 people applying for a job with 10 years experience there will be managers that cut the stack down by tossing any applicants without a resume, rather than read through every single one of them. Doesn't matter where you are in your career. It trends down a bit, but it's always a sizeable factor.

The reality is after 10 years in the field you are going to have a decent sized network of people who will get you in their company if a job opens up, that's a major way to bypass that problem. I know I've planted seeds with every coworker I've ever worked with and them to me.

[Serapth]

If you have 50 people applying for a job with 10 years experience there will be managers that cut the stack down by tossing any applicants without a resume, rather than read through every single one of them. Doesn't matter where you are in your career. It trends down a bit, but it's always a sizeable factor.

The reality is after 10 years in the field you are going to have a decent sized network of people who will get you in their company if a job opens up, that's a major way to bypass that problem. I know I've planted seeds with every coworker I've ever worked with and them to me.

That I tend to disagree with. When I have hired, if im hiring someone with experience I tend to look at 1st) the companies the person has worked for, then 2nd) the duration they spent that the company 3rd) there skillset. I dont give a rats ass at this point about their education.

I got my degree in 1996, so Im coming up on 10 years experience. Im kicking around the idea of removing my educational history completely off my resume. Its taking up two lines of valuable space and frankly any resume with more then two pages, is too long.

[Taco]

I've worked with managers and companies who made it a point not to interview anyone without a degree and for prospective managers anyone without a masters.

It's certainly not everyone, I've been successful without a college degree. But it's tough to make your resume stand out in that pile, there's a degree of luck to getting that interview. Once I get the interview I'm usually rather confident that I can win them over, that's something I'm in control of.

I agree about the two page limit, always a challenge. I took a lot of non college tech courses that I've been shaving off over the years.

[shotgunhappy]

I'm one of Mechano's students up at ITT in Green Bay, and if any of you think we're learning useless information I'd be more then happy to have you shadow me for the day to see what does go on in our classrooms. Also if you do live in the area come meet Eric Holmes on Mon. Dec. 5th, at 10:30am. See all the details here : www.doom3dpoopart.net . If you are there you are there, my Dev. team will be giving a short demenstration of our current project, Devils vs. Demons.