PopOp #72 - Wrath of the Lich King

[Sarconix]

The launch of the next expansion to World of Warcraft was met with shattered sales records, exceeded expectations... and a commercial featuring the "real" Prince of Darkness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT8maUTzE48&fmt=18). Wrath of the Lich King introduced a new high-level area and a new "hero" class in the form of the death knight, but no content for new players. So what did you think of it?

http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/images/2003/all/boxshots2/942519_94365.jpg

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Results of Previous Polls (http://www.mauriciovives.com/popop)

[RevXwise]

Poor. Same old collect 10 boxes here, kill 20 guys there type of quests. I gave it about 5 hours before I couldn't continue any further.

Worst $65 I've spent in a while.

Edit: Should include that I had 5 70's before it came out, along with about 6 other lower level battleground characters. I used to play WoW a pretty good bit.

[oldschooldimo]

i love it. just hit 80 a few days ago. wayyy better than burning crusade. much better quests, the story was better, northrend is awesome. great expansion. cant wait for the next one.

[Wyrm]

Poor. Same old collect 10 boxes here, kill 20 guys there type of quests. I gave it about 5 hours before I couldn't continue any further.

Worst $65 I've spent in a while.

Edit: Should include that I had 5 70's before it came out, along with about 6 other lower level battleground characters. I used to play WoW a pretty good bit.

Were you expecting them to reinvent the wheel? What gave you the idea that one expansion was going to take the tired gameplay and do something so incredible with it that it would make you want to play it for three more years?

It is still WoW, and it has been since the day it was released. They've tweaked it a lot since then, but no expansion is going to change the core gameplay of "kill five of those" and "collect eight of those."

And, if anything, Wrath is best attempt yet by Blizzard to actually make the quests a little different (The Death Knight Quest line).

If you felt burned for paying for more of the same, I can't say I'm sympathetic. Almost everyone else who paid for it knew exactly what they were getting.

[Lind]

Loving it, the dungeons are great fun and I like how all raids now have a 10 man versions. Also the quests are quite varied and fun, gotto love the daily where you hang on the belly of a dragon with a spear and than end up in his mouth and bend his jaws apart and kill him :)

[Silverbaine]

its good so far. had it for a week or so, kinda taking my time.

[ubartehbarbarian]

I voted good, although the pvp is now pretty broken, with a huge portion of the pvp players pretty unhappy at the current state of the game.

If you thought pvp was unbalanced before and didn't think Bliz could make it any worse you're in for a shock!

I myself am not surprised, sometimes I think they got chimpanzees working on the pvp content.

[Valkyrist]

@Sarconix: Knocking Wrath for not having "no content for new players" is a really weak diss. If you've never played WoW before, and bought it today, you'd spend a couple months just getting your first character to the endgame content. There's 0% need for new stuff at the beginning. Burning Crusade added new lowbie stuff, but only because they introduced a couple new races, which needed their own starting zones/cities.

@RevXwise: 5 hours huh? You spent how many countless hours getting your supposed 5 lvl 70's, and you're going to dismiss the new expansion after 5? You got to what, lvl 71? Out of 80. Didn't see any of the endgame content? None of the new abilities? Saw maybe one area? Even bother trying out the new class? Yeeeaaaah...

Anyhow.

While not totally successfull, Blizz went to great lengths to mix up the generic questing routine (which admittedly is still there). Grinding out those 10 new levels was not only more engaging, but faster this time around. Which allows me to get to the level cap, and actually start joining in on the endgame content.

Speaking of endgame content, I tip my hat to the dev who came up with 10-man versions of all the raids. This is the first time in any MMO that ALL of the endgame is accessible to me. Both in the orignal WoW, and the BC expansion, I never got to see half the endgame content because I wasn't part of a major raiding guild (plus having a life outside of WoW).

The story and lore-telling is MUCH more fleshed out in Wrath, even at this early stage. Simple questing can take you on huge swaths of lore-ridden chains. Sure, you don't have to read it, if that's not your thing. But some of us really dig the whole warcraft mythos, and it helps you forget you're grinding out levels. Many of the lower level quest lines lead directly into who and why you are fighting in endgame content. It's not just "go here and kill boss to get loot", there's now a reason and story as to why you're there.

Oh, and in-game machima cinemas for the overall expansion's story is awesome beyond words.

Now there are plenty of problems. Class balance, gear itemizations, etc. But a lot of that will be ironed out in the following months via patches. The first big patch is due maybe next week. So I'll give those slide for the time being. My biggest complaint is they need to start adding the next "chapter" in the endgame stuff, asap. My tiny guild is almost through everything available already, and I have 3 geared-out lvl 80's already.

Overall, I'm extremely pleased with the expansion so far.

[RevXwise]

Haha, yeah I figured my post would piss some people off. I guess my frustrations are more towards current MMO's in general. I definitely wouldn't consider them "the wheel", though. There is a lot of room for improvement.

I figured they would address some of the problems that this site (http://www.massively.com/2009/01/02/anti-aliased-top-5-things-mmos-should-learn-in-the-new-year/) talks about.

I came into the game expecting sieges with siege weapons, better skills, and generally more varied quests (ala the bombing quests from Burning Crusade). I got the better skills part, but everything else stayed the same. I was more disappointed than anything. It's hard to keep pushing something when you are still bored after five hours of playtime.

I didn't mean to sway anyone's opinion, just to give my own. I guess an OK rating would have been more accurate. I might return to give it a better evaluation, but it's gonna be hard to convince myself the extra $20 will be worth it.

@Valkyrist: Haha, no, I didn't even make it to level 71. Once I saw the first "Get these boxes over here" quest, all of my hopes were shattered. Also, "supposed 70's?" Haha, why would I lie about something like that? Everyone in this guild is one my characters. (http://www.wowarmory.com/guild-info.xml?r=Thunderlord&n=Rounin&p=1) I also have a 70 on another server and a few more BG chars on other servers.

[Sarconix]

@Sarconix: Knocking Wrath for not having "no content for new players" is a really weak diss. If you've never played WoW before, and bought it today, you'd spend a couple months just getting your first character to the endgame content.

No argument here; I am just paraphrasing some of the professional critics, for better or worse. I always leave the PopOp intro free of personal opinions (unless you see it in italics at the end).

[Vandenh]

Got it. Played it for 2 weeks and unsubbed after being a raider for 2 years. Dunno why... WoW is done for me. WotLK just didn't do anything interesting for me and everybody was 80 after just one week. My guild cleared Naxx after 4 weeks... it took us much longer to clear Kara in TBC. It seems to be a zergfest right now. I went back to LOTRO and Moria and that game is just so much better.

[Derella]

I gave it a great, because of how much they improved the quests, storyline(running into Arthas early on, the in-game cinematics, the Wrathgate, phasing) and the addition of achievements. Sure, you get a fair number of the same old kill/collect quests, but there are also a lot of new types as well(ie: jumping from proto-dragon to proto-dragon to reach the top of a spire in Stormpeaks, a lot of the vehicle quests where you ride another creature and have a whole new set of skills).

Despite my enjoyment of it, I quit after hitting 80 on my main, and getting a DK to 74(about a month). I'm WoW'd out, having played on and off since closed beta. I don't really hold that against the game though. There aren't many games that I can say have kept my interest over a span of 4+ years.

[Mr. Lake]

I voted for "good", simply because this expansion did so many things right that BC did wrong. I actually get the sense of a story and an actual passing of time through the various characters (Drakurru is a great example of contiguous character-driven story-telling). In BC I wasn't even aware of an underlying story - I had no reason to care about Illidan...so much so that I never saw the end-game content.

It's evident in areas where they did try to do something new with wuests in the usage of vehicles (I think one of my favorites is a daily quest for the Sons of Hodir, where you grapple with a dragon and fight to the death). Granted, even while riding a vehicle most of the quests follow the same formula (kill 10 of these, gather 5 of those, etc.), but the effort to make it feel different is appreciated and in essence is what makes WoW the game it is.

I am much happier with the idea that the top tier pvp/arena gear is now dominated by the raid gear. There are exceptions for a few items here and there, but the overall concensus is that running heroics as a well oiled machine should grant higher rewards. I di have to agree witrh the comment about PvP battlegrounds being broken. Just a couple of days ago I played a battle of WSG where one team flag had dissapeared and the opposite team honor-farmed through all hours of the night... meanwhile, anyone who attempted to grab the remaining flag was crippled with a debuff that was so anti-competative I can't believe Blizzard tested these changes and felt they were ready for primetime. This, and some other miscellaneous quest bugs are what kept me from giving the game a "great" vote.

I think people are too quick to criticise it for not being new and innovative... why should it? I'm not buying an expansion to play a completely different game... I'm paying for an extension of the game I already enjoy. If you disliked playing WoW, I don't see the logic in thinking this expansion will change your opinion of the principle game.

[Fizzl]

Great, much better than TBC was however my guild and I cleared Nax25 in the first week we tried it while still mostly in our sunwell gear :P
But on the other hand this is the first dungeon so it should be accessible to most people, looking forward to the next content patch at the moment but first more fallout3! :)

[pwnophobia]

Got it. Played it for 2 weeks and unsubbed after being a raider for 2 years. Dunno why... WoW is done for me. WotLK just didn't do anything interesting for me and everybody was 80 after just one week. My guild cleared Naxx after 4 weeks... it took us much longer to clear Kara in TBC. It seems to be a zergfest right now. I went back to LOTRO and Moria and that game is just so much better.

Reading comments like this makes me glad that I didn't waste my time buying it. I was into WoW from beta up until WOTLK, and I did just about EVERYTHING (including AQ40 in vanilla, Gladiator and alot of raiding in TBC).

I'm sure it's still a very fun game to play, and I've heard a lot of great things about how they do quests and what not but after 3 years of it it was time to move on :)

[saneman]

Great. I haven't read any of the comments so far. Maybe I'll be repeating stuff. Maybe I'll be blithely unaware of some important point proving that I am not in fact enjoying the hell out of this game.

The use of phasing, first in Acheron and especially in Icecrown, substantially changed my expectations for what they can do with storytelling within the game. I'll be interested to see how Blizzard evaluates their impact once the Wrath era is over. I'm finding the Death Knight class incredibly fun to play. They'll tweak the numbers, they'll nerf and they'll buff, but the core mechanic of runes and runic power and the continuous execution of abilities is all but perfect. I'm not left sitting around waiting for something to do like on my Paladin, and I'm not stance dancing like on my Warrior. I'm having fun.

Blizzard were harping on quite a bit about getting players more involved with Arthas than they were with Illidan in TBC, and I think they pulled it off. You have to really not be paying attention (or simply not quest) to feel left out of the story.

[Hapless]

WotLK was the stick that broke the camels back for me. With a whole lot more of the same, them making the game even more casual and streamlining all the classes was enough for me to take my leave (And for good this time, i think) I think overall the game is good, good enough for most people, but i just prefer a higher level of difficulty that will never be there. Some sort of pvp that isn't gear/class based and there are actually penalties for pvping.

[Rarely Operable Brain]

I rated it "Good", but I just got back into the game FOR the expansion, so I haven't had much experience with it other than going through the set of Death Knight starter quests (which I thought were good fun). A month from now, my opinion may such that I'd give it a "Great" vote after I've had a chance to see more of the new content. :cool:

[Librum]

It met my expectations perfectly and continues to be a great place for me to play with the friends I've been questing and raiding with for the last few years. It's still a MMO, and still has the same CRPG elements that most people are after when they're wanting to play a CRPG, which isn't the least bit surprising.

And yes, if you're hoping that somehow the basics have changed, they've not. Quest and 5 man from 70 to 80 and then get ready for the 10 and 25 man raids to get your gear for the raids that will invariably open over the span of the next two years before the next expansion hits. I'd suggest that, still, if you've got any interest in the storyline and like WoW, it's worth buying the xpac and spending a few months touring Northrend. You'll get to 80 before you're anywhere near to done with the available quests, but they're interesting enough that I think most folks will want to wrap up what's available in the new zones.

[Divorced]

Poor. Same old collect 10 boxes here, kill 20 guys there type of quests. I gave it about 5 hours before I couldn't continue any further.

Worst $65 I've spent in a while.

Edit: Should include that I had 5 70's before it came out, along with about 6 other lower level battleground characters. I used to play WoW a pretty good bit.


I agree with the other guy. What did you expect them to do? An expansion is not going to radically alter the base gameplay. It's going to be more of what made WoW so awesome. For me, it's the best game ever. Nothing else gives me, dollar for dollar, more gaming time than any other game. I can spend $15/month and play as many hours as I can manage. Now that I have a fiance, I probably only play 5-10 hours per week. When I was unattached, I'd play 40+. No other game gives that type of longevity.

[Rarely Operable Brain]

Now that I have a fiance, I probably only play 5-10 hours per week. When I was unattached, I'd play 40+. No other game gives that type of longevity.

I just couldn't help but notice the irony of your name, considering you're apparently engaged. :D

[Rayonic]

I played the game for 5 minutes and was not impressed. Aren't I cool???

or...

I bought the expansion and was dismayed that they still had quests! And levels! WTF blizzard.

or...

I was disappointed that all the intro content was too easy. I remember the good old days when all that content would be overtuned and/or broken.

Have I covered all the bases?

[bub64882]

I went w/ Great. Couple reasons:

1. Phasing is awesome, and makes you feel like you have an impact on the world. Yes, LOTRO did this first, but it is a welcome change in WoW.
2. Because of the phasing, and the cinematics (Wrathgate) and scripted events (many quests have some awesome in game scripted events featuring important characters and events), the questing seems like real content now, and not a means to an end (gold, items, and levelling). I finally look forward to seeing the gold exclamation point again.
3. I play a paladin, and am loving the class design at this point. The new skills and talents are a lot of fun.
4. My friends and I are having a ton of fun in Azeroth again. They managed to make it fresh enough, without alienating anyone.

[Wyrm]

I played the game for 5 minutes and was not impressed. Aren't I cool???

or...

I bought the expansion and was dismayed that they still had quests! And levels! WTF blizzard.

or...

I was disappointed that all the intro content was too easy. I remember the good old days when all that content would be overtuned and/or broken.

Have I covered all the bases?

The same people who make those complaints will eventually go back to WoW, because even though it is utterly stagnant and boring now, it is still the best MMO on the market.

If you're going to complain, why not level it at Blizzard for casualizing the MMO market. Warhammer played like it did largely because they were afraid to stray too far from the mold. Fortunately, they managed to do something more interesting with the gameplay, IE, it feels more like you're battling on a battlefield than pressing buttons.

[normyk]

Take my comments with a big grain of salt. I'm a very casual player for the most part and haven't gotten much into the new stuff yet - so I'm really kind of looking at stuff from the outside and basing my comments on what I've read elsewhere.

Whether the expansion is good or not depends largely on playstyle and obsessiveness of the player. For a casual player like me it offers new content, furthering of my tradeskills (which I enjoy a lot), the death knight class (which I understand is fun), and the huge overhaul of talents going into it (which was a mixed bag for a lot of people - I play an arms warrior mainly and the new talents work for me until they nerf SD). These seem like they're all pretty engaging little additions. For the hardcore new raid content has to be a nice thing, though from some of what I've heard it's a mixed bag (hear a lot of cries of "too easy").

I do have a problem with how they implemented the death knight - I feel a Heroic class should be a reward and you should have to do something frigging heroic to unlock it. Just because I shelled out the cash and have a 55 should not be enough (look at the dk population right now - it's insane). A "heroic" class should be something you have to strive toward and it shouldn't be so common to see them (I'm thinking back to reading about the first Jedi in Galaxies). As things stand it's just another class. I think not making it something that requires a lot of work is the second biggest fumble of the expansion. It could have been some of the content that the hardcore are seeking.

Which brings us to the biggest problem - serving the hardcore (and this is totally from a distance mainly observations from reading wow blog posts). I think they just didn't know how to do it this time around. When the hardcore player and their guild are going to rip through all of the new content in under a month (a week for a lot of them) you need to have some means of holding their attention for the next year and a half while they wait for more content (content patches notwithstanding). The answer in BC seemed to be "give them dailies and more raid content and they'll be happy" and that worked to an extent, but when it comes time for LK then using same answer sounds really pretty weak. Admittedly, it is dailies and raids and achievements. Well, the hardcore have been doing two out of the three for ever now and the third will not appeal to everybody. Some people will be happy with "more of the same" in an expansion (I certainly am), but I think you need to come up with something to engage those who are getting tired of doing the same thing for four years.

So I didn't select a score because I really haven't seen much of the new content. Just had a few thoughts that may or may not have any basis in reality.

[Caerim]

I rated it good. WotLK added a ton of story quests which was sorely lacking in TBC. Seriously, why would you do TBC content? Because the loot is there. Wrath content is more story driven so you understand why a place is the way it is.

I'd rate it great if there were a bit more end content at present. I really think they should have launched with one raid instance waiting instead of Ulduar being months away.

Other than that, the game has polished itself further and making the gap between it and any other MMO that much wider.

[lockwoodx]

Poor. I'm crunched for time here but I'll sum it up nicely. Wrath of the Same Thing.

[vallor]

I only gave it an OK. It is "More of the Same", which for a game like WoW can't be too bad.

PvP is completely unbalanced. Gear itemization is completely out of wack for the 3 characters I've played in Northrend (if your druid isn't spec'd feral you're not getting many leather upgrades through quests, for example).

Phasing is OK except it turned into a blocking issue if I wanted to do quests with friends ("wait on doing icecrown until I catch up!"). As cool as scripted type events are they need to allow one person to "join" another person's phase as a measure of protecting the grouping aspect or limit them so entire zone progression isn't an issue. For example have something cool in Icecrown but make it a subset of the quest, don't tie all progression to the phasing.

The mud flation is completely out of control. My guild recently cleared Hyjal for kicks with a 20 man raid. It was fun and I won the T6 helm from Archimonde. My druid has a blue cloth helm from a level 73/74 quest that kicks the crap out of the T6 druid helm in every way (including armor rating!). It is one thing to make gear obsolete, but to make some of the highest end gear so incredibly it obsolete within the first 10 hours of playing the new expansion is boggling. Granted in this case I basically benefitted but it does make me feel a little sorry for the high end raiders who hardly got any longitevity from their gear.

The new dungeon design is decent with a lot of variety but the focus on heroics is a little disappointing because the difficulty of the dungeons seems to swing around wildly. I have a difficult time finding anyone for Halls of Stone, for example, because it is poorly designed and "harder" than some of the other dungeons in earlier zones (like the very short nurbian dungeon whose name slips my mind).

The 10 man raids are pretty neat, they are sometimes a little hard to find a group for but once you do they are some of the toughest in the game (10 man, 3 drake Sarth is about the hardest raid in the game, I hear). They still aren't as approachable as I'd still like them to be, most of them border just past the edge of a casual player being able to participate.

Blizz needs to commit to a market. Either make everything accessible to the casuals or go down the hardcore route. I don't think they can successfully straddle the fence much longer. BC was "too hard" for everyone but hardcore and WoTLK is "too easy" for the hardcore and borderline too hard for the casuals. I guess it is good business sense for them to keep dragging it out but it is frustrating as well to be JUST on that edge of being able to do the content. Maybe the next step is more variations of the dungeons. 5 man normal, 10 man normal (basically 5 man normal but with 10 people), 5 man heroic, 10 man heroic, 25 man normal (basically 10 man heroic mode), 25 man heroic. Give people the "easy" mode, normal mode, and hard mode.

I still play it as my MMO of choice, but I was hoping that some more of the long standing issues would have been addressed or at least not get worse, which didn't happen.

[Wyrm]

Poor. I'm crunched for time here but I'll sum it up nicely. Wrath of the Same Thing.

Again, with this lousy complaint. I'm not defending WoW, because I actually happen to agree with you. It is the same, but Wrath, more than the original game, more so than the first expansion, does attempt to differentiate the experience enough.

I actually do think that your criticism is invalid, because weighed against the past, Wrath delivers an extremely solid, story driven quest line with the new class, and the new areas are far more interesting.

But World of Warcraft is based on a formula, a formula that, thus far, works just fine for 98% of the player base. It has been constantly tinkered with since launch, but it is still basically the same. Get quests, kill shit, gather things, cast spells, level up, nothing is terribly different. But the context, something that both the original WoW and TBC were lacking, is what Wrath gets right. It gives you a good reason to want to fight, and tells you what you're going up against. The Gateway to Outland in BC is a great example of this, but it doesn't last much beyond that opening segment and the quests in the first area. After that, you're off doing the same boring crap you've been doing.

I'll harp on this once more, because it is worth repeating. Warhammer, though lacking severely in PvE (something WoW does masterfully), has pristine gameplay. It seamlessly blends WoW's slick interface with Guild Wars' combat mechanics, and viola, an MMO that is actually fun to play is born. Now, I've already quit playing it because they need time to figure out the game's focus. Obviously, it's PvP, but they have to figure out how to get players funneled into the real meat of it, and not just the instanced scenarios. But Warhammer does one thing well that WoW does not: PvP. In WoW, I have never once felt that the PvP was anything more than a careless after thought. The Arenas are neat, the BGs were fun a few times, and the open PvP servers were fun for about one character. But in Warhammer, since the gameplay was balanced entirely around players beating the hell out of eachother, it's actually fun to sit around all day queuing up.

The other thing about Warhammer is the emphasis, from the very moment you begin play, on the huge fucking WAR that is going on. WoW, for all its charm and fantastic locals, has almost none of this impending conflict. There have been some great events that provided the feeling for a short time, but in Warhammer, it is everpresent. You are always contributing to some war effort, and though the PvE is actually the game's weakest point, in this, they executed with high precision. It's hard not to get swept up in the churning war machine when everything around you screams that atmosphere.

I actually found myself excited to get home and jump into PvP, not caring what the rewards were, merely that I was a better healer than 90% of the people I played with, and the stats board at the end reflects that. But the beautiful thing is that stats do not matter in the least. They are the end result of an epic, brilliant battle, where your entire team was dependent solely on your healing in order to hold the flag just long enough to win. Or blocking off a choke point as a tank to hold off a horde of enemies at the right moment.

The game is chalk full of moments like that, and they are against other people. You know, real, breathing humans. It is difficult to PvP in WoW after Warhammer, because it doesn't mean anything. Sure, you can get better gear, but that's the only reason you're there. I never queued up for a BG in WoW genuinely excited about the coming match. The only real fun was raiding a city with hundreds of other players, and even that has little consequence.

So, while I have not voted, because I haven't played enough of Wrath to do so, I do feel that it is the best WoW will ever be. It isn't going to change too much from here folks, so if you're looking for something different, it's time to move on. That's not to say you should skip it either. If you're a diehard WoW person, it is absolutely more of what you crave. And, it's the best of that. The quests are better, the vistas are sweepingier, and the stakes, while not really higher, at least feel that way.

[Dzog]

I enjoyed myself... Northrend is unquestionably FAR superior to Outlands... the whole outer space thing NEVER appealed to me... whereas the Viking style of Northrend is wicked! The zones are awesome! If you step foot in the Grizzly Hills... like WOW! VERY cool place... I loved it!!! I saw all the zones and the time invested in the design of each zone is very evident!

However, upon reaching 80 I then realized I was back to where I was in the previous expansion... grind grind grind... I just can't take anymore grinding for gear... I am beyond burnt out of it....

Great game and I wish my memory was erased of my previous 4 years in the game but I can not... for someone that is coming into WoW that is completely NEW to the idea and concept... get ready to be VERY addicted to this game...

I am back playing Age of Conan and now that the server merges are complete, I have TONS of people to kill now... loving the game for the time being...

Can we please get a revolutionary MMO already??? PLEASE!!! I want to feel ADDICTED again....

[Wyrm]

I enjoyed myself... Northrend is unquestionably FAR superior to Outlands... the whole outer space thing NEVER appealed to me... whereas the Viking style of Northrend is wicked! The zones are awesome! If you step foot in the Grizzly Hills... like WOW! VERY cool place... I loved it!!! I saw all the zones and the time invested in the design of each zone is very evident!

However, upon reaching 80 I then realized I was back to where I was in the previous expansion... grind grind grind... I just can't take anymore grinding for gear... I am beyond burnt out of it....

Great game and I wish my memory was erased of my previous 4 years in the game but I can not... for someone that is coming into WoW that is completely NEW to the idea and concept... get ready to be VERY addicted to this game...

I am back playing Age of Conan and now that the server merges are complete, I have TONS of people to kill now... loving the game for the time being...

Can we please get a revolutionary MMO already??? PLEASE!!! I want to feel ADDICTED again....

I'm the same way. I played a bit of Wrath on my brother's account, enough to see the sights and play a few levels. But the WoW end game will always be an endless grind for better gear. Pimping out a character for years at a time is not something I'm interested in.

The problem with WoW is very simple. It's divided sharply between two groups. The hardcore, making up a small, but still decidedly large chunk of the player base, hungers for more dungeons to raid and items to loot. Blizzard caters to these people, because they are the most vocal. Then, there are the casual, who would probably like to raid, but don't have the people to do it. They max a character and, if they're not in a guild, they go off in search of pick up groups, or BG all day. If they are in a guild, that guild probably isn't raiding, and probably doesn't have lots of 70s. Even if it is raiding, they won't be able to keep up with the gear of the hardcore guilds, so PvPing against them is futile. Blizzard has tried their best to cater to this casual group as well, but they have not yet succeeded.

In my opinion, WoW has only ever been fun playing it with people I knew. I was never interested in questing all day by myself so that I could get to 70 and grind gear out for the rest of time. I wanted to journey to epic places, battle monsters, and talk shit, all with a few buddies along the way to enjoy it. Otherwise, what's the point?

[lockwoodx]

Again, with this lousy complaint. I'm not defending WoW, because I actually happen to agree with you. It is the same, but Wrath, more than the original game, more so than the first expansion, does attempt to differentiate the experience enough.

I actually do think that your criticism is invalid, because weighed against the past, Wrath delivers an extremely solid, story driven quest line with the new class, and the new areas are far more interesting.

But World of Warcraft is based on a formula, a formula that, thus far, works just fine for 98% of the player base. It has been constantly tinkered with since launch, but it is still basically the same. Get quests, kill shit, gather things, cast spells, level up, nothing is terribly different. But the context, something that both the original WoW and TBC were lacking, is what Wrath gets right. It gives you a good reason to want to fight, and tells you what you're going up against. The Gateway to Outland in BC is a great example of this, but it doesn't last much beyond that opening segment and the quests in the first area. After that, you're off doing the same boring crap you've been doing.

I'll harp on this once more, because it is worth repeating. Warhammer, though lacking severely in PvE (something WoW does masterfully), has pristine gameplay. It seamlessly blends WoW's slick interface with Guild Wars' combat mechanics, and viola, an MMO that is actually fun to play is born. Now, I've already quit playing it because they need time to figure out the game's focus. Obviously, it's PvP, but they have to figure out how to get players funneled into the real meat of it, and not just the instanced scenarios. But Warhammer does one thing well that WoW does not: PvP. In WoW, I have never once felt that the PvP was anything more than a careless after thought. The Arenas are neat, the BGs were fun a few times, and the open PvP servers were fun for about one character. But in Warhammer, since the gameplay was balanced entirely around players beating the hell out of eachother, it's actually fun to sit around all day queuing up.

The other thing about Warhammer is the emphasis, from the very moment you begin play, on the huge fucking WAR that is going on. WoW, for all its charm and fantastic locals, has almost none of this impending conflict. There have been some great events that provided the feeling for a short time, but in Warhammer, it is everpresent. You are always contributing to some war effort, and though the PvE is actually the game's weakest point, in this, they executed with high precision. It's hard not to get swept up in the churning war machine when everything around you screams that atmosphere.

I actually found myself excited to get home and jump into PvP, not caring what the rewards were, merely that I was a better healer than 90% of the people I played with, and the stats board at the end reflects that. But the beautiful thing is that stats do not matter in the least. They are the end result of an epic, brilliant battle, where your entire team was dependent solely on your healing in order to hold the flag just long enough to win. Or blocking off a choke point as a tank to hold off a horde of enemies at the right moment.

The game is chalk full of moments like that, and they are against other people. You know, real, breathing humans. It is difficult to PvP in WoW after Warhammer, because it doesn't mean anything. Sure, you can get better gear, but that's the only reason you're there. I never queued up for a BG in WoW genuinely excited about the coming match. The only real fun was raiding a city with hundreds of other players, and even that has little consequence.

So, while I have not voted, because I haven't played enough of Wrath to do so, I do feel that it is the best WoW will ever be. It isn't going to change too much from here folks, so if you're looking for something different, it's time to move on. That's not to say you should skip it either. If you're a diehard WoW person, it is absolutely more of what you crave. And, it's the best of that. The quests are better, the vistas are sweepingier, and the stakes, while not really higher, at least feel that way.

Defend it all you want. I'm in a top end raiding guild bored out of my mind. Armory Trisian on Argent Dawn my lock pushing 6k dps.. This expansion was full of fail and recycles shit. I accaully re-subscribed to WAR after WOTLK. Actilizzard is just milking idiots for what they can get.

This expansion is 99% cut and paste. They should be ashamed to call themselves developers.

[SadGit]

Cant reach higher than Ok for me. The solo/lvling part is great fun this time round and the maps are so much more intersting than the horrible purple Outlands. At least they got rid of that particular acid dropper.

Once you hit lvl 80 its actually worse than Outlands. Since 5 mans now take less than an hour to complete and the raid instances can be easily completed even naked...there isnt really any incentive to grind or farm anything. Which sorta means there is feck all to do. Doing the odd 5 man, sure can be fun. Farming them to get gear is less fun. And while farming has become a lot faster and easier, Blizzard forgot to add any hurdle that would even require farmed gear or rep.

So you log on for the daily quest/transmute/Hi guildies, and then log off unless its the raidnight. And then you stop doing that and stop by once or twice a week. Then you stop doing that...

Does the game need to cater for the hardcore raiders, perhaps not, but unless you throw them a bone or two they will slowly disappear. And that will leave nothing but the shiny chat interface, which is not terribly expensive but in these days even £10 can start to matter.

[Ulysses]

I'll go with OK, as well. I started from 70 and enjoyed myself, more or less to 80. The zones are nice, and the quests do have a good story to them and they link up well and make sense. But, now that I've hit 80...it's almost as bad as being in vanilla WoW's lvl 60 endgame wall.

Part of this problem is not going to make your own fun, but doing the same heroics over and over again and doing the dailies as a job, more or less, does get tedious. PvP is also annoying and frustrating, as my healing Paladin keeps getting steamrolled by the ridiculous damage outputs. Maybe the endgame will pick up when they change content, but WOTLK is a pleasant drive into a brick wall for me right now.

[Sarconix]

The results are in! (http://www.mauriciovives.com/popop) Thanks for your votes and comments.