I'll Watch You Play, and You Can't Stop Me

[AaronGF]

With Sony's rootkit fiasco and now the introduction of M.I.T.'s WiFi system that can track your physical location, there are some serious privacy concerns going on. This article discusses (http://www.gamesfirst.com/?id=957) the recent trend for companies to do pretty much whatever they want as long as it is included in the user agreement. Play this music, sign your life away. Is it fair that Sony can demand that you delete the music you paid for off your computer if you leave the country? Declare bankruptcy?

As technology allows us to do things like track user movements, at what point do we start worrying that Sony, World of Warcraft, and anything else, has too much leeway with what they can do to the gamer?

[askheaves]

The fact that they can bury any kind of nonsense they want to in a EULA, written ostensively in a foreign language and obfuscated by garbage text, and it can hold up in a court of law is the root of the problem.

Cigarettes have about 10-20 words on them explaining that using their product will make your baby die and destroy your lungs, yet they're still liable for what you do with their product.

[emperordahc]

Mark my words (somebody archive this thread!): in a few years, all video games and computers are going to be running on all but dummy terminals where the game data is online and we do everything connected to Big Brother. Quote me. Seriously.

[Varsity]

Is it fair that Sony can demand that you delete the music you paid for off your computer if you leave the country?I don't see what's so unreasonable about that. If you aren't in the country, why would you need copies of it on a hard drive that is? It's not like they are telling you to ditch the CD, just the files you a) ripped from it and b) aren't taking with you.

The bankruptcy thing seems a little silly though.

[Ernst_Jager]

All bullshit.

[askheaves]

Varsity... an iPod is a computer with a hard drive. Do you want to lug your CD Wallet around with you just for compliance when you take a chunnel ride? That's the whole point of portable digital music.

[XxSATANxX]

Market force will rule here eventually. As informed customers learn that SONY and others invade and punish their customers, they will eventually find other ways to spend their money. Looking at the backlash on DRM I'm imagining that in a short while even the slowest of big giant companies will begin to move product in the other direction. Customers want control of what they buy. Just now the big stupid TV networks are learning that opening up their TV shows for free download builds audience. For years they have fought P2P. Now they are learning it's a market place.
Since I have not bought a CD since 1997 I'm in the clear as regards "rootkits". Your IP is a physical location and can be tracked. I don't see anything that worrysome about that. I'm aware.

IP LOCATER: http://www.geobytes.com/IpLocator.htm?GetLocation

[Player 1]

Is it a good idea? No, it's Big Brother mentality.

However, if you agree to it then you agree to it. That's their get out clause and YOUR responsibility to check (precisely like a parent needs to check the age-rating on a game before buying it for their child - complaining about it afterwards is a demonstration of ignorance and arrogance).

If you don't agree to it, then don't buy it/use it.

Enough of a dip in revenue will tell the companies whether their activities are working in their favour or not. If you agree to everything blindly then you should not be surprised of people trying to take advantage of you*

*spoken by someone who has never read an EULA in their life.

[Blade]

*intro to Bullshit!*

[Lodin]

Believe it or not but a EULA isn't a 100% legally binding document just because they claim it. If they wanted to they could put a clause that you're signing them the soul of your first-born by using the product but that still wouldn't stand up in court.

[bapenguin]

There's already been cases where the EULA isn't holding up in court. Microsoft, Adobe and a few other big companies are trying to come up with different solutions to the problem to cover their asses.

[DoubleUranium]

If EULAS are going to be legally binding, then I want software to follow every other product's safety and quality requirements. If I have to sign all my rights away then they should have to as well. When Windows crashes my computer, I expect a full refund for their defective product :)

[novicius]

However, if you agree to it then you agree to it. That's their get out clause and YOUR responsibility to check (precisely like a parent needs to check the age-rating on a game before buying it for their child - complaining about it afterwards is a demonstration of ignorance and arrogance).

If you don't agree to it, then don't buy it/use it.
But I might want the music; if I paid for the CD then I'm obviously a customer and want the disc. Crap like Sony is pulling, why, I might just have to find that music in other ways than legally buying it -- they give me so many areas and loopholes that I'm probably going to end up breaking the EULA anyway...

/end rationale. :rolleyes:

[Mrbunchypants]

problem.... what if sony is the only company to have the product your looking for. case and point is how apple is trying to controle who has access to your itunes song. you did buy them, but are they really yours?

[Varsity]

Varsity... an iPod is a computer with a hard drive. Do you want to lug your CD Wallet around with you just for compliance when you take a chunnel ride? That's the whole point of portable digital music.
You've got it the wrong way round, it would be the any copies you left on your computer at home that would have to be deleted. It's not a brilliant example either: unless I'm very much mistaken the EULA talks about leaving the country in terms of emigration, not short breaks in Paris. ;)

[Conner Dain]

Mark my words (somebody archive this thread!): in a few years, all video games and computers are going to be running on all but dummy terminals where the game data is online and we do everything connected to Big Brother. Quote me. Seriously.


If you want to be quoted, please be more specific than "a few years". Various companies have been trying to push "network computers" (dumb terminal or thin-cilent machines) for years and have had little success outside specialized applications. This MIGHT happen when broadband 10 megabit access is as common as a phone line, the certainly not before. Where the benefit for the user?

[emperordahc]

Various companies have been trying to push "network computers" (dumb terminal or thin-cilent machines) for years and have had little success outside specialized applications. This MIGHT happen when broadband 10 megabit access is as common as a phone line, the certainly not before. Where the benefit for the user?
There is no benefit for the user. It's all about the developer's security veiled behind "new features". So many software products are already requiring that you perform online registration to unlock the product on your computer. Soon, the code/content will run online. Very. Very. Very soon.

[kokyunage]

Your IP is a physical location and can be tracked.

It isn't always very accurate. In fact, your web app reports my location to be off by a solid 90 miles and a different state.

[AaronGF]

xxSatanxx: Being able to locate your IP number on a map of California isn't the same as being able to locate which room, building, and floor you're occupying in downtown San Fransisco. It's the difference between saying that you're being watched by satellite because they can take a look at the city you're in from space, vs. reading the newspaper over your shoulder.

[Roc Ingersol]

Some day, people will start reading the EULAs, and not hitting 'I Agree' when they object.

When they start doing that, these things will largely go away because plenty of competitors will offer products with reasonable terms or *gasp* none at all.

Though I would love to see a click-through struck down in court, I'm not holding my breath. There's piles more hope in consumer awareness.

Maybe some day, people will even reflexively click 'I Don't Agree' when they see a EULA, and promptly return the software.

[Roc Ingersol]

It isn't always very accurate. In fact, your web app reports my location to be off by a solid 90 miles and a different state.
It's off my location by 562 miles and 2 states.
comically false.

[AaronGF]

Yeah, actually, it's off on mine by three states.

[askheaves]

Just to throw in, that IP link was only off for me by one state... alphabetically.

True dat, Varsity. I still think it's relatively rediculous that they have any say in the use of your music beyond multiplying and distributing it to other people.

[Tennistoad]

The eula is also your ticket to returning software for a refund.. When the geek won't let you return opened software. You just state to him that you don't agree with the eula and if he doesn't take back the software for a full refund, the state attorney general would like to have a few words with him.. Works for me...

[Conner Dain]

Soon, the code/content will run online. Very. Very. Very soon.


I seriously doubt it. It's estimated that 70% of US households will have broadband at the end of 2005. But "broadband" is a VERY ambiguous term. It can mean anything from 300 kps to 4 mbs. That's a very broad range. And you are NOT going to see full client-server applications running on anything less than 10mbs download. And the infrastructure to support that kind of bandwidth DOES NOT EXIST at the present time. If you know something about some broad new scheme to boost throughput through copper wires so that 300 kbs DSL can run 10 mbs, I'd like to hear it. Otherwise you are just blowing hot air.

[RevXwise]

The eula is also your ticket to returning software for a refund.. When the geek won't let you return opened software. You just state to him that you don't agree with the eula and if he doesn't take back the software for a full refund, the state attorney general would like to have a few words with him.. Works for me...

Well that's good news for me. I was just thinking that if I payed $50 for a game that said the company has full rights to invade my privacy, I would be extremely pissed that the store wouldn't refund my money because the packaging was already opened.