Blu-Ray Will Support Mandatory Managed Copy

[bapenguin]

It looks like the Blu-Ray Group (http://www.blu-ray.com/) caved and implemented Mandatory Managed Copy in the Blu-Ray spec. The lack of MMC in Blu-Ray was a big complaint from Microsoft and Intel, and it is one of the reasons they went with backing HD-DVD which included it.

The Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) today confirmed that Mandatory Managed Copy (MMC), which allows users to legally copy discs and transfer the digital files over a home network, will be supported by the Blu-ray Disc format. This was one of two features that HP recently requested be added to the Blu-ray Disc format, the other one was Microsoft's iHD layer for interactivity. "Mandatory managed copy will be part of Blu-ray format, but while HP's request (for interactivity) is being considered, at this point in time, the Blu-ray group is still proceeding down the path of Java," Blu-ray spokesman Andy Parsons told Reuters in an interview. "We are taking their request seriously, but are not willing to delay the launch. I'm not saying we would not implement what they've requested, but it's not going to stop the format at this time.
Closer yet to one format.

[bapenguin]

There's your positive Sony news and positive consumer news all rolled into one.

[TrackZero]

Yeah, this is good news. Maybe MS/Intel can compromise with the Blu-ray group now and merge to a single format. But, who knows....

[agentgray]

Please, oh, please.

I'll believe it when it's in my hands.

Sony, give up and just use other more "open" (I use that term lightly) formats.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

As much as I dislike Sony, it does seem like they are getting the short end of the stick on this deal. People and some companies keep calling on Blu-Ray to make all the concessions - why shouldn't HD give up some things? MS is sticking with HD because it has their software on it, that's probably the main reason right there.

Bah, either way I think both new formats are silly. Talk about a crappy "new" format.

[Roc Ingersol]

I sure hope Sony gets the short end of the stick.
Their development tools are well behind Microsoft's and their proprietary media formats are a laundry list of failures.

As long as their 'features' are more consumer-unfriendly than the alternatives, they should be making concessions.

[fitbabits]

I absolutely refuse to post a comment on any thread that dares to show Sony in a good light. Apart from this one!

:rolleyes:

[Serapth]

As much as I dislike Sony, it does seem like they are getting the short end of the stick on this deal. People and some companies keep calling on Blu-Ray to make all the concessions - why shouldn't HD give up some things? MS is sticking with HD because it has their software on it, that's probably the main reason right there.

Bah, either way I think both new formats are silly. Talk about a crappy "new" format.

Well... basically HDDVD didnt have to give up anything because it was already the comprimise solution. It gave up greater storage for better compatability with todays technologies, ease of manufacturing, cost of manufacturing and supported DVD out of the box. HDDVD really had nothing to give up since it was already there. Comprimise would have been dropping features.

What I wonder with all this blu-ray volitility... just WTF is it they plan to ship in the PS3??? If the drive isnt even fully spec'd yet, how the hell do they expect to manufacture them quickly and cheaply enough to ship next spring?!?!

[pacmanfever]

What I wonder with all this blu-ray volitility... just WTF is it they plan to ship in the PS3??? If the drive isnt even fully spec'd yet, how the hell do they expect to manufacture them quickly and cheaply enough to ship next spring?!?!

my guess is that the ps3 won't be shipping next spring.

[Meatgortex]

MS is sticking with HD because it has their software on it, that's probably the main reason right there.

Actually both Blue-Ray and HD-DVD specs have provisions for MS wmv codec. So they make money regardless of which format wins.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

Sony, give up and just use other more "open" (I use that term lightly) formats.

Uh, so what "more open" HD format is Sony supposed to support instead of Blu-ray? HD DVD isn't any more "open" than BD. Given the clear lead Blu-ray has over HD DVD in terms of support, telling Sony to give up now is like telling a wrestler to take a dive when he's already got the other guy on a two-count.

Actually both Blue-Ray and HD-DVD specs have provisions for MS wmv codec. So they make money regardless of which format wins.

Yeah, but Blu-ray doesn't use iHD, which is one of Microsoft's big sticking points.

What I wonder with all this blu-ray volitility... just WTF is it they plan to ship in the PS3??? If the drive isnt even fully spec'd yet, how the hell do they expect to manufacture them quickly and cheaply enough to ship next spring?!?!

This really isn't going to require any changes in the physical spec -- the AACS scheme Blu-ray uses already supports managed copy. Making managed copy mandatory instead of optional is only going to affect software, not the hardware.

[Serapth]

Uh, so what "more open" HD format is Sony supposed to support instead of Blu-ray? HD DVD isn't any more "open" than BD.



Yeah, but Blu-ray doesn't use iHD, which is one of Microsoft's big sticking points.

Depends on your definition of OPEN.

If you are using the traditional "OPEN" like "open-Source", then no, there are no other options. This has been true basically since the dawn of media. VHS required a license, Beta required a license, laser disc, dvd, cd, they all required licenses. Thats a big chunk of the reason why Sony wants BR to win ( its a good chunk of change ) and the same for Toshiba ( or was it Hitachi? ) with HD. Ironically, neither has fuckall to do with Microsoft, they will make pretty much zero off licensing on either format.

Now, look at open from a consumer perspective, and frankly HD-DVD is much more OPEN then BR is. Open in this case is the options that the consumer has with the media they purchase. Open as in the number of devices that can access that media or the way in which the media can be transformed.

This is one of those catches with Sony. They are as much or more a hardware company then a software company ( like Microsoft ). They focus on moving units, especially multiple units like media ( like HP is with printer cartridges ) because this is a big part of their business. Microsoft on the other hand, wants nothing to do with this area. Its probrably a big part of the reason they are pushing for online distribution so hard. Their focus is content(software) and not manufacturing.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

Now, look at open from a consumer perspective, and frankly HD-DVD is much more OPEN then BR is. Open in this case is the options that the consumer has with the media they purchase. Open as in the number of devices that can access that media or the way in which the media can be transformed.

Please elaborate upon this further. It seems to me that with the adoption of mandatory managed copy in the Blu-ray spec HD DVD no longer has any particular advantage here.

[Kamalot]

So...

If Blurry discs will eventually support Managed Copy, when will that be? Does that mean that early players won't support Managed Copy?

Does that mean some discs aren't able to be copied and only later ones will be?

What is their timetable to implement Managed Copy?

Debates could go round and round about this but, judging from Sony's track record, I don't believe it.

Remember how, before the PS2 launched, we were all told that the system would have a hard drive on which you could download movies, music and games? We all know what kind of half-assed attempt Sony made to give us the hard drive, right?

So rather than delay the bluray disc launch to make an excellent product, they will cut features now and perhaps provide their standard half-ass, unsupported implementation of the other features at a later date. Maybe they'll wait till they figure out how to distribute a few virus when you copy the disc to your PC.

Yeah, thanks Sony.

[Danin]

This is probably a dumb question, but what's Mandatory Managed Copy?

[Serapth]

Please elaborate upon this further. It seems to me that with the adoption of mandatory managed copy in the Blu-ray spec HD DVD no longer has any particular advantage here.

Oh, I agree with that *now*. Managed copy support was a huge step, but up until now they havent been as open from a consumer perspective.

Now the biggest negative to blu-ray is higher manufacturing costs ( existing faucilities will need costly upgrades ) and I believe but may be wrong that HDDVD would ship with one laser that could read old format disc's as well as new format, while BR required a seperate laser for each. If this is true ( and im not positive it is ) then BR players in general should cost more and initially be more prone to break-age. Neither of these of course have anything to do with open-ness :)

[Serapth]

This is probably a dumb question, but what's Mandatory Managed Copy?

In a nutshell it allows the disc's contents to be copied to another device, normally a PC, with certain restrictions ( thats the managed part... ). Up until now, the Blu-Ray media locked itself to the disc only, so you couldnt say, make a copy to your pc.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

If Blurry discs will eventually support Managed Copy, when will that be? Does that mean that early players won't support Managed Copy?

Does that mean some discs aren't able to be copied and only later ones will be?

No, that's why it's called "mandatory."

[Kamalot]

Please elaborate upon this further. It seems to me that with the adoption of mandatory managed copy in the Blu-ray spec HD DVD no longer has any particular advantage here.

Well, for one, it isn't in the Bluray standard yet. All HD-DVDs have this capability on the disc.

If Sony starts making bluray discs and selling them, then those discs won't ever be able to be copied since Sony said they would be launching the format without including the Managed Copy feature.

Should they ever really decide to implement the managed copy feature, which is highly suspect when considering Sony's past, then the market will be divided into devices and discs that support managed copy and those that don't. That's not consumer friendly at all.

[Kamalot]

Now the biggest negative to blu-ray is higher manufacturing costs ( existing faucilities will need costly upgrades ) and I believe but may be wrong that HDDVD would ship with one laser that could read old format disc's as well as new format, while BR required a seperate laser for each. If this is true ( and im not positive it is ) then BR players in general should cost more and initially be more prone to break-age. Neither of these of course have anything to do with open-ness :)
You hit the nail right on the head.

Bluray discs need a blue laser to read the disc.
HDDVD uses a different format of the same media, therefore the same red laser will work.

Bluray players that also read DVDs and CDs will also need a red laser mechanism. This adds to the complexity of the device itself and increases the chances of it breaking.

Manufacturing facilities will be able to switch over from making regular DVDs to HD-DVDs in a single day according to some reports.

Manufacturing facilities interested in producing Bluray discs will need entirely new equipment to make the new discs. The disc media itself is different, with the readable layer much closer to the surface and easily scratched. The writers also need a blue laser, an expensive proposition to manufacturers.

It remains to be seen how much of the manufacturing cost will be passed on to consumers. Current estimates indicate that a bluray disc could cost as much as $10 more than an HD-DVD disc.

Also, HD-DVD discs will come in 'hybrid' formats. This hybrid format allows for one side of the disc to contain the HD-DVD movie while the other side contains the standard DVD version. This is great for consumers since they can purchase a DVD for their current player knowing that it will be supported in the new emerging HD format.

[Zeal]

I still think HD-DVD will become the standard.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

Well, for one, it isn't in the Bluray standard yet. All HD-DVDs have this capability on the disc.

Or rather they would if any HD DVDs actually existed yet. Given that neither format is actually on the market in a finalized form, it's a bit early to be talking about this in the present tense.

And as for adding this into the Blu-ray spec, like I said, managed copy is easily possible within the already-supported AACS spec -- absolutely no physical changes are required to the Blu-ray spec to support manadatory managed copy. All the Blu-ray Group has to do is require that publishers include it, which affects nothing except disc authoring. The hardware itself doesn't need to be changed at all.

Bluray discs need a blue laser to read the disc.

So does HD DVD. No offense, but this is really basic info.

Bluray players that also read DVDs and CDs will also need a red laser mechanism. This adds to the complexity of the device itself and increases the chances of it breaking.

HD DVD is the format that will use a second red laser to read DVDs and CDs. Blu-ray will use diffusion to increase the size of the blue laser and thus allow it to read the larger pits on DVDs and CDs. Neither method is more or less "complex" than the other.

Current estimates indicate that a bluray disc could cost as much as $10 more than an HD-DVD disc.

Those estimates (actually "estimate," since it was made by exactly one source) are neither "current" nor correct.

Also, HD-DVD discs will come in 'hybrid' formats.

So will Blu-ray discs.

[KhitomerRouge]

Last of the Red Hot Mamas has it. From the client side, there's no real differences. Both are blue (actually violet) laser technologies with optional red-laser implementations, both are backwards-compatible (i.e. will play regular CDs and DVDs), both have hybrid versions, and software is to come in at similar or identical price points. However, initial estimated MSRPs are wildly different. While there aren't any standalone player estimates, the PS3 estimates range from $400 (from Sony sources) to $600 (industry analysts) at launch, with the added bonus of being able to play games. Toshiba reps have stated ~$1000 for their standalone player on several occasions. As to the disc coating, Blu-Ray dropped the cartridge-based protection a long time ago. They're now using a TDK coating called Durabis, which has been demonstrated to allow smooth playback even after being scratched by a screwdriver (http://news.com.com/Try+scratching+this+DVD/2100-1041_3-5455621.html).

The big points of contention from HP (who are definitely more on the PC side rather than consumer electronics side) were mandatory managed copies, which Blu-Ray has agreed to, and iHD, which is probably due to pressure from one of their biggest suppliers. MMC was definitely the bigger of the two issues. I can't see any large advantage that HD-DVD has over Blu-Ray, and commercially, Blu-ray's 80% content provider support handily beats HD-DVD's 40%. It's too early to make predictions, and they're both essentially vaporware, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a compromise or concession from Toshiba around the time of the Consumer Electronics Show. The majority of the CEA members are behind Blu-Ray, and they're putting on the show.

[Serapth]

Personally, my money says both format fails to gain full market penetration. Personally I think neither offers the consumer enough incentive to jump to the next level. The size increases over existing DVD's just arent great enough, and frankly, what is the benefit? DVD's really just hit full market status recently ( atleast on the PC side of things ), and the mere fact that CD's are still the dominant music distribution system I even question if thats true.

The only real market I see for BR or HDDVD right now, is High Def movies. I know HD is getting much more affordable but its still basically early adopter territory right now. Plus, the HDTV OTA mandates keep getting pushed back, what is it now, 2008? So lets say it takes 2 or 3 years where HDTV sets represent the majority ( this is an optimistic time frame in my opinion... even though I own an HDTV ), how much is going to evolve in 3 years time?

Heres my guess.
1) Broadband adoption. On demand TV is already here to some extent. My local cable provider provides both HD PVR's and on-demand movies ( you pick a movie from a large list and its sent to you instantly ). Broadband adoption rates are higher then HDTV adoption rates. By the time HD is the norm, I should imagine broadband is the norm. Plus, speeds are increasing at a stagering rate aswell. 3 years ago, I was on a 1.5 mb DSL line at home. Now im up to a 6 mb fixed IP DSL connection for basically the same price. On that growth curve, I would in three years time probrably be at about 24 mb. That is sufficently fast to stream HD video, to support TV over IP, and especially to simply download a HD movie over night.

or

2) Solid state media. This one might take more then a few years, but look at what SD cards have done in the past few years. 3 years ago, a 256meg sd card was a few hundred bucks. Now, that will buy you can buy a 1 gig card for half that. If it keeps going, I could see flash style cards hitting a price point that makes them essentially disposable, while at the same time growing in size large enough to store full movies. The big win if this happenned would be a more stable format ( hard to scratch an SD card ), easier to implement DRM then a disc ( not that consumers like this, but content producers sure do), smaller form factor and finally look how many devices already support SD cards as it is. Hell, my TV has an SD card reader in it already, as does my laptop, my printer, my camera, even my phone.


Granted, both of these things are speculation. I just dont think BR or HDDVD offer enough to really build up critical mass. I think both will turn out comprable to MiniDisc in the end.

One other thing to look at that supports my over IP theory... Look at XBox 360 Live marketplaces initial launch. Notice they are offering free downloads of HD music videos? ;) They are getting consumers used to the concept of using their XBox as a media device, especially an HD media device. Mark my words... by the end of XBox 360's life span you will be able to 1) buy and DL full games to your Xbox 360 2) download full movies to your XBox and possibly 3) rent games / movies on a time limited basis.

That was, IMHO, MS's whole reason for entering the game market. That, and to prevent sony from turning the PS(#) into a home computer system

[agentgray]

Depends on your definition of OPEN.

If you are using the traditional "OPEN" like "open-Source",
Yes, I mean that no one company holds the patent, IP, or licensing. Any company can use it.

[pacmanfever]

Plus, the HDTV OTA mandates keep getting pushed back, what is it now, 2008?

there is no such thing as an HDTV OTA mandate. there is a DTV OTA mandate. The D is for digital and is completely unrelated to high definition.

[Serapth]

Yes, I mean that no one company holds the patent, IP, or licensing. Any company can use it.

That, for the most part atleast when a physical product is involved, just doesnt exist. In todays world, someone or a group of someones, own the IP, simple as that.

[Serapth]

there is no such thing as an HDTV OTA mandate. there is a DTV OTA mandate. The D is for digital and is completely unrelated to high definition.

Thats not specifically true. HDTV is DTV, its just the highest quality of DTV. However, and I wasnt clear in my comment, HDTV over the air I believe requires DTV.

From www.dtv.gov:
No. HDTV is the highest quality of DTV, but it is only one of many formats. In addition to HDTV, the most common formats are Standard Definition Television (SDTV) and Enhanced Definition Television (EDTV).

SDTV is the baseline display and resolution for both analog and digital. Transmission of SDTV may be in either the traditional (4:3) or wide-screen (16:9) format. EDTV is a step up from Analog Television. EDTV comes in widescreen (16:9) or traditional (4:3) format and provides better picture quality than SDTV, but not as high as HDTV.



While I was there... I got my date:
The target date for the end of the transition from analog to digital television signals is December 31, 2006. That date may be extended, however, until most homes (85%) in an area are able to watch the DTV programming.

I dont like that *may* :(

[KhitomerRouge]

It's already been extended to April 7, 2009. I believe that's exactly the day after March Madness ends.

[Serapth]

It's already been extended to April 7, 2009. I believe that's exactly the day after March Madness ends.
2009?!?!?! Thanks fucker, you just made me cry! J/K :p

[KhitomerRouge]

Well, it doesn't really matter if you live in a market already implementing DTV, which is the case for many metropolitan areas. For instance, I live near DC, and all the local network broadcasters except UPN (expected ETA March 2006) are multicasting analog and DTV signals over-the-air and through cable/satellite. Our local PBS station has 4(!) digital channels including HDTV.

[Serapth]

Well, it doesn't really matter if you live in a market already implementing DTV, which is the case for many metropolitan areas. For instance, I live near DC, and all the local network broadcasters except UPN (expected ETA March 2006) are multicasting analog and DTV signals over-the-air and through cable/satellite. Our local PBS station has 4(!) digital channels including HDTV.

Oh, but it does matter. Once DTV is mandatory, people sitting on old "good enough" TV's are going to be faced with buying a setop box just to keep watching TV. Or... they buy a new tv, most likely a HD one.

That event will probrably sell more HDTVs then anything that has happenned to date. Thats why I care. Even know, HD content is still rather scarce, atleast 1) where I am and 2) compared to regular content.

[Kamalot]

The owner of NetFlix expects BluRay discs to carry a 20% premium over DVDs.

http://us.gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/netflix-jumps-gun-on-next-gen-dvd-138229.php

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

That sounds pretty much exactly what one would expect from a next-gen format with a limited market base. If his estimate is correct then the Blu-ray cost issue is effectively nugatory.

[Serapth]

That sounds pretty much exactly what one would expect from a next-gen format with a limited market base. If his estimate is correct then the Blu-ray cost issue is effectively nugatory.

Thanks for teaching me a new word :)

nugatory \NOO-guh-tor-ee; NYOO-\, adjective:
1. Trifling; insignificant; inconsequential.
2. Having no force; inoperative; ineffectual.

And I thought you were making it up! Now I just need a chance to use it in a conversation. My friends are going to hate my for talking in such a nugatory way these next few weeks. :D

[mister_slim]

That's about what misc members of the Blu-Ray consortium have been estimating. At this point a manufacturing cost of 75 cents versus 25 cents will impact profits not at all.

[bobbler]

You hit the nail right on the head.

Bluray discs need a blue laser to read the disc.
HDDVD uses a different format of the same media, therefore the same red laser will work.

Bluray players that also read DVDs and CDs will also need a red laser mechanism. This adds to the complexity of the device itself and increases the chances of it breaking.

Manufacturing facilities will be able to switch over from making regular DVDs to HD-DVDs in a single day according to some reports.

Manufacturing facilities interested in producing Bluray discs will need entirely new equipment to make the new discs. The disc media itself is different, with the readable layer much closer to the surface and easily scratched. The writers also need a blue laser, an expensive proposition to manufacturers.

It remains to be seen how much of the manufacturing cost will be passed on to consumers. Current estimates indicate that a bluray disc could cost as much as $10 more than an HD-DVD disc.

Also, HD-DVD discs will come in 'hybrid' formats. This hybrid format allows for one side of the disc to contain the HD-DVD movie while the other side contains the standard DVD version. This is great for consumers since they can purchase a DVD for their current player knowing that it will be supported in the new emerging HD format.

1) HD-DVD is blue laser based, just like BR. It will need a red laser extra to read DVD/CDs -- it runs on the same wavelength as BR does, infact.

2) The actual media cost is negligable to the end consumer purchasing a movie -- you're going to pay extra for the percieved quality increase, not the cost of the media.

3) (responding to some earlier post of yours) AACS is one of the standards that both BR and HD-DVD employ. AACS is where the whole Managed Copy stuff is contained. The only difference previously between HD-DVD and BR was that HD-DVD made it mandatory to have Managed Copy (with the option to charge the user), meanwhile BR made it optional for Managed Copy. Now there is no difference. There isn't going to be some delay upon implementation, it has been in the format the entire time -- it was only optional before.


For someone who's so against the format, you sure don't know much about it. Either formats for that matter.