Discourse: The Fighting Genre

[modeps]

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With the release of games like SoulCalibur 4, MK vs DCU, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix and the upcoming release of Street Fighter 4, some could say that the fighting genre is making a strong comeback.

November 29th, 2008 -

Do you enjoy fighting games? Why?
Is the genre poised to make a comeback? Do you welcome a return?
What older franchises would you like to see come back?


Past discussions:

Downloadable Content (http://evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1674068)
Console Game Patching (http://evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1677441)
Digital Distribution (http://evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1680744)
User Creation (http://evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70120)
DRM (http://evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70734&highlight=discourse)

[Judas]

I think those games have a fun albeit short appeal. They do make a great arcade game. As far as spending 60 bucks to play 2 dozen different sprites to defeat an opponent? I think it has a shorter attention span than a game like fallout 3 for instance.

If you have a roommate and like competitive play, like sports matches, then this is probably right up your alley. I like them, but honestly, after a short spell, they get rotated out for other games.

[RevGored]

I enjoy fighting games because they offer a very enclosed and intimate sense of competition in comparison to larger-scale RTS or FPS games. The fighting genre in particular is a very visceral, up close competition that you are hard-pressed to find in other genres. Unfortunately, the return of a couple key franchise titles won't shift the tide that gaming has been swaying to for the last 10+ years, which is multiplayer shooters. Though fighting games may have once dominated the 'tournament' competition scene, they certainly are a byproduct of their time, which was arcade and home competition. With the advent of online play, most gamers that are now 'born' into gaming ask for more connectivity, not more face time, with their opponents.

And realistically, most 'old' franchises remain that way because they couldn't hold up against the advances that the stalwart fighting games that still remain have gone through. However, gun to my head, I'd say I would really enjoy the return of World Heroes because it was such a ridiculously bad SF ripoff that I'd like to see what game they would try to emulate in modern day.

[drakkarim]

Do you enjoy fighting games? Why?
Is the genre poised to make a comeback? Do you welcome a return?
What older franchises would you like to see come back?


I personally hate fighting games, they just bore me to tears.

Looks like there's a resurgence in the genre, which i welcome, as variety in gaming attarcts bigger audiences and in the end gives more games to everyone else.

I'd love to see a return for Ultima, Mechwarrior, Syndicate, Knights of Legend and Freelancer to name a few.

[Ozena]

Fighting games have been a favourite genre of mine since nearly the beginning. I got into Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat on the SNES and haven't looked back.

Then games like Soul Calibur and DOA came along and that finished it.

It's not really the competition, since I don't often play them against other people (stupid, I know, that's kind of the point), but I like the quicker gameplay, but still not twitch reflex like in Unreal. Plus with this gen's rendering power, the new games look gorgeous too.

As for making a comeback, no, I don't think they are. The genre has died down in the last few years, and there have been/will be some high profile releases, but I don't see fighters coming back like they used to be. As long as I get my DOA and Soul Calibur, I'm fine though.

Definitely like to see a new Killer Instinct, but with I haven't been too impressed with Rare lately, so maybe it wouldn't be a good idea. I'm super pumped for Street Fighter IV, but other than that I think a new Clayfighter game could be cool, if done right.

[Metal Khaos]

I love fighting games. Ever since Street Fighter 2 really.

Fighting games are great because if you're with a group of friends, everyone gets a round, and the games tend to not lost THAT long. I'm still waiting to see Marvel vs. Capcom 2 on XBLA/PSN with online-multiplayer support. I've played all those series of fighting games, like X-Men vs. Street Fighter and X-Men: Children of the Atom in the arcades as a kid. Me and my cousins also went on a long Soul Calibur 2 kick, where we'd play it endlessly, 8v8 character battles.

I think there's always room for improvement, though as of late I haven't seen too many new fighters come out. Do hope that Guilty Gear kind of goes back to Guilty Gear X style though.

[Emabulator]

I enjoy fighting games that require at least some skill. I'll pass on the basic button mashers.

I still play Capcom vs. SNK 2 and Virtua Fighter 4 on the PS2 (VF4 is a great game). I also play some Capcom and SNK classics on GameTap once in a while.

As far as recent games go, I've yet to try any of them.

[Nuggsy]

I think that the fighting genre has the potential to always bring more casual gamers over to the hardcore side. Like Judas mentioned, I think that they're great for a quick fix of gaming when you don't have the time for something as in-depth as Fallout 3.

Still, although I think that the technical fighters went a long way to prolong the life of the genre, I think that games like DOA and Soul Calibur push the casual fan away from fighters - you can't always button mash your way to victory, particularly against a live opponent. I also think that innovation in the genre is all but dead but I give the developers credit by tacking on additional play modes and including a lot of extras.

I think that there's a staggering lack of innovation in the fighting genre and no matter how you dress up a fighter the genre has been stagnant for a long time. The same thing is happening with shooters I feel. Sooner or later we'll all be playing games like Mega Man 9 and Braid and commenting about whether or not the side-scrolling genre is dead.

[Demo_Boy]

I want to hear ULLLLTTTRRAAAA CCCCOOMMBBBBBBOOOO!!! From a modern game.

[Rirath]

The last great fighting game for me was Dead or Alive 4, and before that, Marvel vs Capcom 2 and Soul Calibur 1 for the DC. Soul Calibur 4 just looks like too much of a cash-in, and while MK vs DC looks better than the previous titles, I'm still not all that hyped to play it.

Street Fighter 4 will probably get me playing again.

[ResistanceAddict]

I enjoy fighting games because they offer a very enclosed and intimate sense of competition in comparison to larger-scale RTS or FPS games. The fighting genre in particular is a very visceral, up close competition that you are hard-pressed to find in other genres. Unfortunately, the return of a couple key franchise titles won't shift the tide that gaming has been swaying to for the last 10+ years, which is multiplayer shooters. Though fighting games may have once dominated the 'tournament' competition scene, they certainly are a byproduct of their time, which was arcade and home competition. With the advent of online play, most gamers that are now 'born' into gaming ask for more connectivity, not more face time, with their opponents.

And realistically, most 'old' franchises remain that way because they couldn't hold up against the advances that the stalwart fighting games that still remain have gone through. However, gun to my head, I'd say I would really enjoy the return of World Heroes because it was such a ridiculously bad SF ripoff that I'd like to see what game they would try to emulate in modern day.

Agreed. The fighting genre, IMO involves one of the highest scale of skill in video games. You have to practice hard to have lightning fast reflexes and learn the ins and outs so well that you can take advantage of every situation.

That said, there's a lot of fighting games that suck ass. As much fun as I'm having with MK vs. DC right now, the controls are really lackluster and the fighting system IMO is broken. Even my absolute favorite fighting game (and my only true game of expertise) which is Tekken at this point still has some BAD hit detection and physics.

[riposte101]

I would like to see a remake of Bushido Blade.

[Trickyicky]

The longevity of fighters nowadays is much more than in the past. Online play basically gives them infinite replay value. I've always loved fighters, for many reasons. I think this quote sums it up best, though:

I enjoy fighting games because they offer a very enclosed and intimate sense of competition in comparison to larger-scale RTS or FPS games. The fighting genre in particular is a very visceral, up close competition that you are hard-pressed to find in other genres.

Another thing that I find is especially fun and unique about fighters is seeing one character or style played 100 different ways. In a shooter, there's a bunch of guns which perform differently, but everyone is just pointing it and shooting it. The anger or frustration of getting your ass kicked can completely dissolve when you can respect the technical and creative way you're getting manhandled. That rarely happens in shooters.

Capcom vs SNK 2:EO came out on the original Xbox in 2003 and you can still hop on there and find a match within 5 minutes most of the time. New fighters are packed full of people after release. DOA4 and SC4 had, and still have, tonnes of people online at any given time.

I'm currently playing SSF2THDR... wow.. and SC4. I'm pumped for SF4, and REALLY pumped for Tekken 6.

[Capt_Thad]

Fighting games are one of three genre's that are a console seller for me. I finally had to pick up a PS3 to coincide with the release of Soul Calibur IV. heh Actually had the SCIV CE pre-ordered a few months in advance, but wasn't able to get the PS3 until a month after I had gotten the game... had to deal with it staring at me from my shelf for a whole month.

I don't know about fighting games having a shorter attention span or anything, I'll easily clock more hours into this (SCIV here) than any RPG I have (and I play a lot of rpg's). They have more replay value, I can go about not playing a fighter for a month or two and bust it out when a friend comes over, or when I get a craving to play, and start into it all over again. Fighting games are about mastery of technique, and that's not really something you do in a couple hours of play. It's also about the purest form of strategy, like in the Miyamoto Musashi sense, you have to plan and react far more confidently than any RTS. Having other people to play with does make them far more appealing. In RPG's you get rewards, trophies of rare items to show your effort, in fighting games you just get to beat up on other people mercilessly. Sadly, that means most of my friends won't play me in any fighters for long. :rolleyes: Once they get these online systems down solid it'll make a huge difference. SCIV is playable online, but the system is still too laggy for gameplay on the level I'd like.

I'm not big on button mashers (as you may have gathered); I play fighters that require technique. That being said I was never much for Street Fighter (the later ones were better, but the early ones were not so much) or Mortal Kombat (looking to pass on MKvsDC), but they were always fun as occasional screw around fighters. I'm more looking forward to the new Tekken and King of Fighters. What I'd like to see is a new Samurai Showdown (which will prolly happen before long) and a new Last Blade (which prolly won't). Would like to see a new MvC game too, isn't there a rumor about one "sooner than we think" going around?

Are fighters making a comeback? I don't really see this set of releases as being different from any releases over the last decade, other than the fact that they all happened within a few months. All of the games being released were ones that were periodically updated since their inception. Of course in the 90's there were 10 garbage fighters/brawlers for every good fighter, so in that sense the popularity has fallen (people less willing to buy fighters in general, so not as much garbage being put out to catch the unwary fringes). I don't think most of the real fighters have gone anywhere to come back from though, and there are still plenty Anime fighters coming out.

[EL CABONG]

Fighting games used to be my fav. In recent years some have become too complex and not much fun( I am looking at you MK).

I hope they make a comeback.

[feeble]

For me, fighting games peaked when Bushido Blade came out.

I found it incredible rewarding and fun to play with friends.
You had to almost psych your opponent out before making your move.
The only complaint would be that the controls weren't as smooth as I would of like, which is why is time for a updated version in this gens consoles.

[Hagetaka]

I would like to see a remake of Bushido Blade.

Mmm, I loved that game.

[Johan]

This genre bores me to tears, but I still have a weakness for any Street Fighter releases, which I pick up, suck at, and drop after a while.

[Sayshu]

I'd love to see more technical fighters like Garou or Last Blade.


The problem with fighters is that when the 3d transition came around so many were sub-par and so many felt that 3d was the only way to go.

Later things balanced out how they are now, which is much like before, just they don't seem high profile anymore.

[FreezaSama]

I used to love fighting games back in the 16-bit era. And I still enjoy them when they're exceptional, as was the case with the Guilty Gear series, or most of the Soul Calibur series. And I'm looking forward to Street Fighter IV as well. But even with these titles, I don't think the genre will ever again be as big as it was when we were seeing a new Street Fighter II clone every other week. Part of that is because people expect more from games these days. Sure, some fighters can be very deep, but they're all repetitive.

Say what you will about the Naruto franchise, but I think the way the fighting game mechanic is handled in Naruto's 360 outings is an excellent way to go about doing a story mode. Build an adventure game, and then let the battles themselves take the format of your traditional 1-on-1 (or more) fighting game.

[Chaos Machine]

new bushido blade plz, with clans and a killer online component with new weapons/kit to trick out your avatar as you get higher ranks! it would be like the cod4 of fighters /GAMEGASM

[Rex Dart]

I love fighting games, but I love them for so many reasons I don't think I'd be able to explain my appreciation for them succinctly. So instead, I'm going to skip to answering the second and third question.

Are fighting games making a comeback? I don't think so. I'd describe the current state of affairs as more of a fighting game renaissance. There is a renewed appreciation and interest in them, but the problems with the genre have persisted and (I think) will keep them a niche genre. At best, they might become a slightly bigger niche.

Most traditional fighting games (Street Fighter, Virtua Fighter, KOF, Soul Calibur, Guilty Gear, DOA, etc.) simply require too much work in order to learn how to be good at the game, and the game isn't much fun until you're at least somewhat good at it. While I actually like that element of the games, it's a major problem for a game developer when they're trying to sell a game that very few people will be able to enjoy right off the bat.

Super Smash Bros. has proved that radically changing (and simplifying) the basic structure of a fighting game can earn mainstream success. I think games like Bushido Blade and Power Stone, properly marketed, could find enormous success among general audiences.

So, to answer the third question, I would like to see Bushido Blade and Power Stone return, along with other simpler fighting games.

That said, I hope their complex older brothers never fade away, and that this resurgence lasts for as long as possible.

[Chimpbot]

Still, although I think that the technical fighters went a long way to prolong the life of the genre, I think that games like DOA and Soul Calibur push the casual fan away from fighters - you can't always button mash your way to victory, particularly against a live opponent.

DOA is a...t...technical fighter? You must have played some super-secret version of the game, because the DOA I know is a mashfest featuring a one-button reversal which only requires proper timing to reverse any move. I remember getting into reversal-a-thons with my friends just to see how long we could keep it going.
The DOA series is fun...but a deep, technical fighter it ain't.


I know a few others have mentioned it in this thread, but I need a new Bushido Blade; that is a series that really innovated the genre. It was among the first to feature solid, 3D movement throughout the stages(which were massive for fighters); couple that with the one-hit kills and you have yourself a fantastic fighter. I remember some exceptionally intense matches between my friends and I...it was a fantastic series that really needs to see a next-gen addition.

[Rex Dart]

DOA is a...t...technical fighter? You must have played some super-secret version of the game, because the DOA I know is a mashfest featuring a one-button reversal which only requires proper timing to reverse any move. I remember getting into reversal-a-thons with my friends just to see how long we could keep it going.
The DOA series is fun...but a deep, technical fighter it ain't.
I don't think he was saying that it was a technical fighter in comparison to other games in the genre. Still, every character has a wealth of moves, most of which come with advantages and disadvantages, there are several powerful combos you can learn (if you care to spend the time), and even the reversal system requires some knowledge of the high/mid/low system, as well as anticipation of your opponent's attacks.

No, it's certainly not as deep as most other fighters out there, but there is plenty for the dedicated player to learn if they wish to put in the effort.