Mark Rein Suddenly Sees Potential in Revolution [Archive]

score

11-12-2005, 04:16 AM

From Moz La Punk (http://mozlapunk.web-log.nl/):

In a new interview Mark Rein, formerly known of bashing the Revolution in public seems to have changed his opinion on Nintendo's new console and shows interest in possibly making games for it.

"I actually said Nintendo's going to make amazing games. I never really passed a judgement on the controller itself. I think the controller's cool!" Mark says.

"I wasn't bashing Nintendo, I wasn't bashing the controller, I was really just saying that a byproduct of having a device like this is that people are going to make games that possibly are just there because of the controller, as opposed to being great games of themselves, and I said it badly... I regret that."

There will be plenty of great titles that make use of the controller, too, Rein adds. "Nintendo and some of the best third parties are going to make amazing games for it."

Read More (http://mozlapunk.web-log.nl/log/4081155)

Suicidal ShiZuru

11-12-2005, 04:53 AM

Yay, more support.

"We don't know right now what the machine's capable of or not capable of, and we've built Unreal Engine 3 to a certain specification. If the machine can run the engine, it'd be fantastic to have it on there."

Hahaha.

Savok

11-12-2005, 05:22 AM

Translation: "I have a license for Rev games now"

GunnyMo

11-12-2005, 05:22 AM

lol seems like someone received a call from Miyamoto-san. lol

Thenetcase

11-12-2005, 05:26 AM

Translation: Someone got threats from lawyers and a check for $300,000 from Nintendo.

Wussy buyable prick.

-tNC-

Jams

11-12-2005, 05:30 AM

Cliffy probably gave him some harsh words. ;P
Since the guy loves the idea of the Rev and all, Mark Rein is just a PR man who is usually actually quite good normally but he did drop the ball a bit, heh.

Qoz

11-12-2005, 05:30 AM

Captain Awesome

11-12-2005, 06:42 AM

Mark Rein is the new George Broussard.

Nameback

11-12-2005, 07:07 AM

Who exactly is Mark Rein? I've never really heard his name excpet for when he's bashing things, which isnt a real great vote of confidance.

Worldcrafter

11-12-2005, 07:14 AM

I understood his earlier statement like he present it now (I'm not trying to appear smart or anything) although he did say it pretty aggressively. The media is so obsessed with portraying scandals and rivalry that often do not exist (conflict=good stories). I find myself clicking on headlines claiming "someone important just thrash-talked someone else important!!" and when you read the actual statements its mostly bullshit taken out of context. But hey.. they got me to click didn't they?

Yeah, if you actually read the source article with his first comments, he was basically saying, it's cool technology, but there are going to be crappy games simply marketed towards using the controler. That seemed like a stupidly obvious thing to say, since that happens with any technology. I'm sure not every use of the Unreal Engine has lead to award winning games. Does that reflect poorly on the Engine itself, no. It just means the developers did a poor job of using it. I'm sure the same will be true for some games made for the Revolution.

EvilBob46

11-12-2005, 07:25 AM

Who exactly is Mark Rein? I've never really heard his name excpet for when he's bashing things, which isnt a real great vote of confidance.

PR manager or something for Epic Games, you know, Unreal series and Gears of War (360).

MosBen

11-12-2005, 07:58 AM

Yeah, I remember his comments meaning this, though as said above, said with a little more moxy, as the kids say. People do love a controversy or fight, even if one isn't there.

Though his comments seem pretty obvious to me, given the way the Nintendo zealots were/have continued to talk about the Rev like it's going to be this Utopian gaming system, maybe the comment was warranted. It's a new and very different device and while some companies (particularly Nintendo and some of their closest third party contributors) will make brilliant games there will also be a glut of gimmicky games based solely on the novelty of the controller. Most of those will be fun for ten minutes and then get super boring.

rjcc

11-12-2005, 08:08 AM

I understood his earlier statement like he present it now (I'm not trying to appear smart or anything) although he did say it pretty aggressively. The media is so obsessed with portraying scandals and rivalry that often do not exist (conflict=good stories). I find myself clicking on headlines claiming "someone important just thrash-talked someone else important!!" and when you read the actual statements its mostly bullshit taken out of context. But hey.. they got me to click didn't they?

Exactly, his original statment was not what it was presented as. He wasn't saying every or most revoltion games are going to be crap, but that there will be a lot of developers who's implementations of the new controller, suck.

If you actually listened to the whole thing you understood what he was saying, but 99% of people didn't.

Nameback

11-12-2005, 08:41 AM

PR manager or something for Epic Games, you know, Unreal series and Gears of War (360).

You mean he's not even a real game devloper? If so then why bother listening?

MajSheppard

11-12-2005, 09:20 AM

Sounds like he is getting ready to run for President with all this flip floping.

Wonka

11-12-2005, 09:58 AM

I dont know why this is a controversy. Even if he did think that the controller was crap, (and it's been pretty apparent all along to me that he didn't), would that really even matter?

Nintendo has a new controller, a number of developers will quite naturally be very excited about it. Some of them will even have brilliant ideas for it. I think that the bigger unanswered question is who (other than Nintendo) is going to actually FUND games for it. Games are a GIGANTIC financial risk today (for publishers). If the platform does not look like a "marketshare leader" platform AND the controller means that there is no possibility of a port later on, then that becomes a REALLY hard sell. I like Nintendo, and I like the looks of their new controller, but I fear that this might be a VERY bad business model.

So my question is are there any PUBLISHERS who are excited about this? Have any of them gone on the record saying that they will actually fund games for this console? I think that this is a critical piece of information that I have heard nothing about...

Dabombpizza

11-12-2005, 10:03 AM

I believe him yo, I don't know why, I just do.

Magnanimous Gnome

11-12-2005, 10:12 AM

Sounds like he is getting ready to run for President with all this flip floping.

Yeah, maybe he could compete with President Bush for Best Flip-Flopper of the 21st Century!

:rolleyes:

Of course there are going to be crappy games on the Revolution. I've also played plenty of shit on my Xbox and the PS2, and I can already see plenty of shit that's being released on the 360. I really don't know why he or anyone else though/thinks that the Revolution will be special in this regard.

I can, however, guarantee that 99% of what Nintendo puts out will be great.

Heretic Machine

11-12-2005, 10:36 AM

*watches Mark Rein backpeddle off a bridge*

EyesNoMore

11-12-2005, 10:52 AM

Did you guys see the IGN video where Mark Rein was on a panel with Matt Cassamasina, a dude from Obsidian, and a dude from Ageia? Maybe he didn't bash the controller in other articles, but he certainly did in the video. He admits to never having held it but makes some childish comments like how the thumbstick would hurt.

His boss probably said, "What the fuck are you doing? Do you want all Nintendo fans to hate us?"

Dabombpizza

11-12-2005, 11:00 AM

I can, however, guarantee that 99% of what Nintendo puts out will be great.

With the exception of Mario Party Revolution....

Dabombpizza

11-12-2005, 11:11 AM

I think that the bigger unanswered question is who (other than Nintendo) is going to actually FUND games for it. Games are a GIGANTIC financial risk today (for publishers). If the platform does not look like a "marketshare leader" platform AND the controller means that there is no possibility of a port later on, then that becomes a REALLY hard sell.

Nintendo, from what I've read, is trying to break free of that idea and the "marketshare leader". With the other two, MS and Sony, placing and emphasis on hardware and graphics the budgets for titles on those systems has really bumped up. Especially the PS3 since no one has ever made a game for the cell processor, and they gots to do a lil' R&D into it.

With the Rev you have less hardware, and nothing really amazing. So the idea is it'll be fairly easy to code for. Now I remember them saying around the time of E3, but haven't heard anything about this lately, that the Rev will use Gamecube APIs, which means if you developed for the gamecube then you already know how to develop for most of the Revolution. The basic thinking is this will significantly bring down the budget.

If budgets are lower then it becomes easier to put out a game on the system and not expect it to sell incredibly well. Currently, when a budget hits a certain level you have to sell a shit ton of copies in order to make your money back, so of course you go for the marketshare (it would be stupid not to).

That's my general understanding of the Revolutions approach to the gaming market from the information I've been reading since E3. An example of what they want to do is the DS and the PSP. DS is fairly cheap to develop for so you can take more risks on it and not sell too much (unfortunately that means gimmicky games). The PSP costs about as much as the PS2 to dev for, but less marketshare, so it's harder to make money back, so less games. That may be why it's a "multimedia device".

Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, this is all speculation without facts on my end.

RMan

11-12-2005, 12:00 PM

If you actually listened to the whole thing you understood what he was saying, but 99% of people didn't.
I don't think this is accurate, there was clearly an agenda in his comments, they were clearly overly negative, and displayed an arrogance well beyond what anyone should be allowed to get away with, much less Mark Rein. I think most people heard exactally what he was trying to say, they just recognized it was a load of crap.

Captain Awesome

11-12-2005, 01:03 PM

From Idle Thumbs:

Mark has a very narrow section of the business. Epic builds middleware, they're very technically savvy guys, but he doesn't have a Revolution controller, he doesn't have a dev kit, he's talking about something he knows nothing about.

-Nintendo's Jim Merrick

jwbxx

11-12-2005, 02:28 PM

I hope the revolution has a killer app that makes me want to buy it. Not mario 12 or mario party 34.

Dracula-X

11-12-2005, 02:45 PM

His boss probably said, "What the fuck are you doing? Do you want all Nintendo fans to hate us?"
It was likely the negative press. Mark Rein is the co-founder of Epic Games, and vice president. He is a bit outspoken, but his comments about the Revolution controller were a bit uncharacteristic as he normally comes off as an intelligent guy, and he knows the business well.

mister_slim

11-12-2005, 03:07 PM

Eurogamer.net did the actual interview. It's got a little more depth.

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=61668

Heretic Machine

11-12-2005, 03:08 PM

With the exception of Mario Party Revolution....

Ok, as much as I hate all the dumbass "Nintendo rehashes!" posts, I have to agree with you here. The Mario Party games have been done TO DEATH! That series needs to be buried. It's up to like, Mario Party 7 now. Didn't that series start on the Gamecube?

Just make a god damn Mario game, fuckers!

51|RandoM

11-12-2005, 03:20 PM

Ok, as much as I hate all the dumbass "Nintendo rehashes!" posts, I have to agree with you here. The Mario Party games have been done TO DEATH! That series needs to be buried. It's up to like, Mario Party 7 now. Didn't that series start on the Gamecube?

Just make a god damn Mario game, fuckers!

Party games rock. Argueably, they could be considered the one genre that rehashing for each new console generation is worthwhile.

If, 10 years from now, I get to play Super Monkey Ball X in full VR, I'm not going to be complaining it is a rehash, especially after I win a round against all my friends and rub it in. Just imagine the jump and glide game, but where it feels like you're in the ball, that'd be sweeeeet. Zooming down that huge ramp, flying up into the air, gazing off into the distance, trying to pick your landing zone, gauging the wind conditions, deciding when to pop your bubble and start gliding. Grabbing stars and bananas with your hands as you fly towards your touchdown point, taunting your opponents, it'd be great.

Hmmm, maybe we need monkey ball vr centers like the old battletech centers. :-)

Heretic Machine

11-12-2005, 04:47 PM

Party games rock. Argueably, they could be considered the one genre that rehashing for each new console generation is worthwhile.

Didn't say Party games sucked. I said we have to many Mario Party games, specifically. I love party games, they fall into the "pick-up-and-play" category of games which I love. But the Mario Party series has gotten WAY too many sequels, seven in one generation. I don't think any series should have more than three direct sequels in one generation...

Loganrapp

11-12-2005, 04:56 PM

http://penny-arcade.com/view.php?date=2005-05-13

Captain Awesome

11-12-2005, 05:56 PM

He is a bit outspoken, but his comments about the Revolution controller were a bit uncharacteristic as he normally comes off as an intelligent guy, and he knows the business well.

Haha, thats a new one. He usually comes off like an outspoken, ignorant idiot.

jwbxx

11-12-2005, 06:01 PM

I had some good times with monkey ball, especially the monkey ball boxing mode. I was the mike tyson of monkey ball boxing except the whole raping part, biting peoples ears, showing my genitals in public and telling someone "I'm gonna rape you like a little white hoe, I'll rape you till you like it."

That being said, I hope revolution brings in new blood into the nintendo mix. Because if I'm gonna buy a revolution for the same games I could get on a gc, I dont see the point.

r3dwiz

11-12-2005, 06:21 PM

Savok

11-12-2005, 07:15 PM

If memory serves me correctly, Mario Party 1-3 were on N64, and the 4-7 on GC.
We have a winner.

How do you people got those terrible blisters? It certainly wasn't the GC pad doing that much damage. I still think the N64 stick is the best I've ever used though.

Shifteh

11-13-2005, 04:45 AM

Translation: Someone got threats from lawyers and a check for $300,000 from Nintendo.

Either that, or get this, the guy said something, and no longer thinks it. Craziness, I know!

Magnanimous Gnome

11-13-2005, 07:58 AM

With the exception of Mario Party Revolution....

Well, let's be fair here. The first couple of Mario Party titles on the Revolution should be great fun. Afterall, I can see the controller leading to a lot of very fun minigames, which is of course what Mario Party is all about. However, I fully agree that this series is way past the point of overdone, so after one or two Mario Party titles on the Revolution they need to give it a rest until the next-next-next gen.

I hope the revolution has a killer app that makes me want to buy it. Not mario 12 or mario party 34.

Well, you're probably out of luck then. I have little doubt that the killer app at launch with be Mario. I also think that it will kick ass. This will be by far the biggest change to the Mario series since Mario 64 came out in 1996.

I don't get why people point out Mario as being overdone. Sure the character appears in a lot of titles, but would you rather have generic, made up characters ala Hotshots? There have not been many core Mario games at all - 7 on the consoles - Mario Bros. 1, 2, 3, Super Mario World, Yoshi's Island, Mario 64, and Sunshine. That's not really that bad considering Mario has been around for 20+ years now. Another Mario title next year will be the second since Mario 64 came out NINE years ago - hardly overdone.

It's nothing like the yearly dose of Splinter Cell, Madden, Tony Hawk, Jak, Rachet, etc. that other companies have been putting out.

No arguments on Mario Party though. Like I already said, I have no problem with one or two of them on the Revolution, but they have really overdone that series.

deciding when to pop your bubble

Yes, never want to pop too early. ;)

In all seriousness, Monkey Ball kicks ass. Truly some of the most fun I've had this gen.

Kamalot

11-13-2005, 08:31 AM

His comments about the gimmicky nature of the games we may see for the controller wasn’t what upset me about the video. His attitude that graphics are the only thing that improves the experience really set me off. If Mark truly believes that graphics alone are what makes the difference between Pole Position and Burnout, then he is truly a lost cause. No amount of innovation can sway this man away from the ‘graphics are king’ camp.

That’s fine. With a track record of Unreal games a mile long, with little-to-no diversity, it comes as no shock that he’s more than a little closed-minded.

Mark also treated the forum like it was his own personal soapbox. He was rude and didn’t even cinsider the Revolution as a next-gen console. He referred to ‘both’ of the upcoming consoles until someone reminded him there are actually 3 upcoming consoles.

His recent comments are a result of him being a pompus ass. what he speaks now is damage control and backpeadling. Watch the original video. I don’t know anyone that isn’t offended by his presence and foul, closed-minded attitude.

Sorry for the typos. I entered this message on my pone.

Player 1

11-13-2005, 02:02 PM

Exactly, his original statment was not what it was presented as. He wasn't saying every or most revoltion games are going to be crap, but that there will be a lot of developers who's implementations of the new controller, suck.

If you actually listened to the whole thing you understood what he was saying, but 99% of people didn't.

Hear hear!

The display of arrogance and ignorance when somebody says (or is misquoted) as saying something you dislike is everywhere.

"Who is the Mark Rein guy? He must be a moron"
So, you don't know who he is but you're happy to make a judgement call on him because, you know, some site said something about him saying something and you don't think to question it.

"He's not even a real developer?"
No. He's a damn sight smarter than that. He's got hardware manufactures and software developers coming to him for buisness.

This constant 'shoot first, ask question later' attitude is becoming embarassing you know? "Oh look, Rein's backpeddling" - er, no. You just didn't listen right in the first place. "Hah! He must have had a phone-call from Iwata" - er, no. You just didn't listen right in the first place.

It's like when everyone jumped up when Lorne Lanning was misquoted about EA and Stranger's Wrath. A later article corrected the misquote but, strangely, I didn't hear many gamers commenting on that one. I guess they prefer their own fabricated reality.

Additionally, Warren Spector has been terribly misquoted with regards to Rockstar games and whole "Warren VS GTA" rants have appeared. He's corrected (http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/action/gta4/news.html?sid=6139443)people and cleared the matter up - but few gamers have listened. They've preferred to act like Jack Thompson instead.

This culture is getting into a bad way with propaganda and lies publicised every day and people too willing to forget objectivity in favour of getting the credit for posting a news story first.
(http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/action/gta4/news.html?sid=6139443)

RMan

11-13-2005, 04:34 PM

No. He's a damn sight smarter than that. He's got hardware manufactures and software developers coming to him for buisness.
Yea, and when I go to the dentists office I do business with the receptionist, but I don't trust them to drill my teeth. The ONLY reason you know Mark Rein’s name is because Tim Sweeney’s coat-tails are extremely wide these days. If you think that Mark’s smarter than many developers, especially with regards to game design, then you don’t know Mark or you know a bunch of weak game developers. Tell you a secret about life, sometimes people that are successful are there because they’re with a group that’s successful, it does not mean they were instrumental in that success (in fact, statistically almost every successful team will have some dead-weight on it).

mister_slim

11-13-2005, 04:36 PM

Sorry for the typos. I entered this message on my pone.
EvAving on your phone?

Shouldn't that be a PSP?

Tennistoad

11-13-2005, 06:30 PM

Dam lost my last ally.

Player 1

11-14-2005, 12:31 AM

Yea, and when I go to the dentists office I do business with the receptionist, but I don't trust them to drill my teeth.

And do you suggest that you know more about their job and the industry that they work in and call them a moron if they happen to utter something you don't like the sound of?

The ONLY reason you know Mark Rein’s name is because Tim Sweeney’s coat-tails are extremely wide these days. If you think that Mark’s smarter than many developers, especially with regards to game design, then you don’t know Mark or you know a bunch of weak game developers.

No. I know Mark's name because, unlike many, I read the whole story, not just the headline. I make a point of knowing what I'm talking about and not making huge assumptions like "I'm a gamer, therefore I know more than a guy who understands the importance of middleware".

My apologies if you're more than a mere gamer.

With all due respect, the importance of middleware is hugely important to developers and manufacturers alike. Particularly as a new generation of extended development times and rising budgets approach. EA know this and now own Criterion. Burnout is nice - but Renderware is what they're after - now EA control a virtual platform. That's an incredible amount of power to have and very very astute business.

There's a TON of very good middleware out there. But how many types have gamers heard of and know about? Only a few - and the Unreal Engine is one of the highest profile pieces of middleware out there. Tim Sweeney's an awesome coder - but awesome code doesn't market itself. Mark knows what he's doing and is doing his job well. He's convinced Sony and MS to stradle his product and make it a key point of their launch PR at E3 and have their backing amongst the development community. You think they guy just got lucky? That all this happened by chance?

Tell you a secret about life, sometimes people that are successful are there because they’re with a group that’s successful, it does not mean they were instrumental in that success (in fact, statistically almost every successful team will have some dead-weight on it).

I can't disagree with you there, but I can't agree that you're talking the gospel truth about this person unless you're his boss. I'm hearing lots of attitude but seeing no evidence.

RMan

11-14-2005, 03:18 PM

And do you suggest that you know more about their job and the industry that they work in and call them a moron if they happen to utter something you don't like the sound of?
Nope, but that's not what happened. He talked trash about something about which he knew nothing, and with a clearly destructive motive. And yea, if I knew way more about the business of which he was speaking (which I do) and he's saying something moronic, then I'm calling him a moron. When you say you think he's smarter than game developers (which includes me) simply because he's the marketing rep of a successful company, I'm going to smack you for it.
No. I know Mark's name because, unlike many, I read the whole story, not just the headline.
My point was that you know his name because of Epic, not because of his individual success and certainly not because of his knowledge on the topics which he was speaking.
My apologies if you're more than a mere gamer.
Accepted.
With all due respect, the importance of middleware is hugely important to developers and manufacturers alike.
Irrelevant, but sure, agreed.
Mark knows what he's doing and is doing his job well.
Debatable, but even if true it gives him no inherit knowledge about everyone else’s job, only a position which some, like you, will respect blindly.
He's convinced Sony and MS to stradle his product and make it a key point of their launch PR at E3 and have their backing amongst the development community.
And you think this is Mark’s doing? Well, you go on thinking that, out here in the real world they chose it because of it’s existing infrastructure, they already had the best artists, a hot name, were in a good position to immediately start developing a product for MS, and were in the best position and likely most willing to play ball.
You think they guy just got lucky? That all this happened by chance?
No, although good fortune is always a factor, they’re overall a good team, I’m just saying Mark is dead weight. I wouldn’t infer his ability or lack thereof on the rest of the team, any more than I’d assume that the team’s ability automatically makes Mark all knowledgeable.
I can't disagree with you there, but I can't agree that you're talking the gospel truth about this person unless you're his boss. Well, if you only believe something about a person if it’s coming from their boss, then you’re likely to get very little accurate information about anyone. The core of what I was suggesting is do not think Mark’s opinion is superior to that of a game developer regarding game design simply because he’s with a successful company, especially when those comments had a clear and destructive motive. Beyond that, if you do accept such baseless statements purely on someone’s position and believe that person to have superior knowledge than those that actually DO the job, then don’t express that within earshot of them, you will offend them.

Player 1

11-15-2005, 12:25 AM

And where did I say that I ever 'blindly' accepted them?

The point I was making was that, to many (who have said so in their critcisms) they never heard of this guy until he dared to give his opinion on Nintendo. Now, apparently, they assume to have enough 'superior' knowledge to make a judgement call on this guy. Seems a little like "Burn the witch" to me.

And, like most culture witch-hunts (see EA and Sony) it's a bandwagon I refuse to jump on and act without thinking. Something I see gamers doing every single goddamn day. For other examples of gamers shooting first and asking questions later (if at all) see Warren Spector on GTA and David Jaffe on Games Journalism. And that's stuff that's happened within the last month.

What I see consistently in this culture are people assuming they understand the full iceberg just because they've seen the tip of it. This Mark Rein farce has demonstrated this mentality perfectly in the last few weeks. People, widely speaking, without a clue, shooting down someone they've never heard of simply because they don't like what he said. They insist he's wrong - even though they have less ground to stand on than he has. It's ignorance feeding on ignorance. It's why gamers laugh at Jack Thompson - but they don't see how much they act like him.

Behaviour like this is why developers gush praise for Nintendo publicly rather than dare to criticise them. The cult of Nintendo will just shoot them down and, more often than not, start a new witch-hunt. Of course, the real proof of how much favour developers have for Nintendo will be demonstrated in their actual third party support.

I've spoken to enough developers recently, under NDA, to confirm the phrase "talk is cheap".

...and believe that person to have superior knowledge than those that actually DO the job, then don’t express that within earshot of them, you will offend them.

Can you tell the rest of the Evil Avatar bunch that? I'm offended nearly every day by what I read here. :rolleyes: