Michigan Judge: "No Harm in selling games to minors"

[Thenetcase]

In an interesting turn of events, Michigan Judge Steeh ruled that approving of restrictions on entertainment could cause irreparable harm from the loss of First Amendment freedoms.

"(Michigan) has been unable to demonstrate the perceived harm it seeks to protect against," Judge George Caram Steeh wrote in a ruling obtained by Reuters.

He added that the state had failed to show what harm could result from selling games to minors. The judge also said "obvious harm" could arise from "stifling free speech" if the law goes into effect as planned on December 1.

"Plaintiffs have demonstrated that the Act is unlikely to survive strict scrutiny, and that irreparable harm follows from the loss of First Amendment freedoms," Judge Steeh wrote.
Read the article here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051110/tc_nm/media_videogames_dc).

It's about time someone in law made a smart move like this. Congratulations are due to a smart judge.

[Justin_McElroy]

Then how does this activist "judge" explain the God damn medical fact that playing Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories makes me want to kill little kids?

[Roc Ingersol]

Perhaps you read Jack Thompson after playing?

[Evil Avatar]

Then how does this activist "judge" explain the God damn medical fact that playing Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories makes me want to kill little kids?

You forgot to take your risperidone. I know that if I don't take mine, I have a very bad day.

[bone_matrix]

Sweet! Now that 12 year old can still buy Halo 2 and annoy the crap out of me!

We should allow him to buy porn while were at it. Free speech after all. Why not smokes and booze then? Its his choice to buy them.

[Heretic Machine]

We should allow him to buy porn while were at it. Free speech after all. Why not smokes and booze then? Its his choice to buy them.

I'm cool with it. Maybe they'll get lung cancer before they're sixteen and that'll be just a few less idiots on the road. Natural selection, biyotch.

[Roc Ingersol]

I'm sure you'll be happy to know it's merely a preliminary injunction that keeps the bill from going into effect December 1st.

[Worldcrafter]

Then how does this activist "judge" explain the God damn medical fact that playing Grand Theft Auto: Liberty City Stories makes me want to kill little kids?

Ah Justin, haven't seen you post in a while. Good to see you back in top form!

[johnperkins21]

We should allow him to buy porn while were at it. Free speech after all. Why not smokes and booze then? Its his choice to buy them.

We should allow them to buy porn. Can you give me one good reason why we shouldn't? And I mean an actual legitimate reason, morality doesn't count as a good reason as it is a very subjective thing.

Cigarettes and booze on the other hand can have very harmful effects on children. Even more so than on adults. I do think that the legal age to buy alcohol should be dropped to 18, as anyone old enough to die in a war should be old enough to drink a beer with his friends. The legal age to drive should be moved to 21, but that's a whole other topic.

Back on to the original topic. Good for this judge to actually demand a logical reason for the bill before allowing it to pass. I would like to contribute to his campaign for President.

[Abednigo]

Whether they can prove it or not doesn't matter to me. A 10 year old shouldn't be able to buy a game like GTA. If his parents want to buy it for him, fine. But it's the same thing with R rated movies and CDs with explicit lyrics. Kids can't get into R rated movies or buy those CDs without a parent. Games should be treated the same way.

[Abednigo]

We should allow them to buy porn. Can you give me one good reason why we shouldn't? And I mean an actual legitimate reason, morality doesn't count as a good reason as it is a very subjective thing.


Besides the fact that most serial killers started off simply viewing porn isn't enough proof of the damage it can do? Yes, they had prior mental issues, obviously, but it contributed to it. Ted Bundy himself spoke of the dangers of porn just before his execution when he was interviewed (it was videotaped so I'm sure it's online somewhere). It can become an addiction like booze, drugs and cigarettes. I'm sure most wives don't appreciate it either. That's not morality, it's respecting your wife.

Cigarettes and booze on the other hand can have very harmful effects on children. Even more so than on adults. I do think that the legal age to buy alcohol should be dropped to 18, as anyone old enough to die in a war should be old enough to drink a beer with his friends. The legal age to drive should be moved to 21, but that's a whole other topic.

So an 18 year old should be able to drink, join the military, vote, but can't drive? Doesn't make sense. Move getting a license to 18. They can get a permit at 16 and have to practice with an adult in the car for 2 years.

[XenonCJ]

I think every man, woman, and child in the United States should be issued the following:

1 carton cigarettes
24 pack beer
1 bottle whiskey
1 glass pipe
6 rocks of crack
5 Chinese stars
1 short dagger
1 long sword
1 set ninja tree climbing claws
1 stack on random porn mags
1 AK-47 (with 10 clips of armor piercing rounds)
set black kevlar body armor
5 Grenades
1 suitcase nuclear bomb (10 kiloton)

[see colon]

5 Chinese stars
ohhh... can my chinese stars be jimmy wang yu, bolo yeung, nicholas tse, yuen baio, and jet li. i don't really like jet li, but i bet i could trade him for a nice plasma HDTV.

[RevGored]

If video games don't follow the same strictures that other forms of entertainment media do, then they're getting some kind of special treatment that they don't deserve, case closed. If someone cannot get into a Restricted film or purchase pornography until a certain age, why should they be able to participate in actions like that in a video game? Seriously, if anyone wants video games, comic book, et al to be considered viable forms of media, then accept the fact that they need to be policed just like any other form of entertainment and get on with your life.

Maybe it's due to the fact that I run a videogame store, and see kids try to buy GTA, The Guy Game, etc.. every day, but I completely agree with the need for a sanctioned ruling regarding the sale of mature-rated games to minors. Our store checks ID and doesn't sell M rated games if you're not of age because, on a business level, it makes sense to not have angry mothers trying to do returns on games thier kids bought. In a VERY PERSONAL moral sense that I am NOT TRYING TO PUSH ON ANYONE ELSE, I find that checking ID is my way of towing the social mores line, and supporting the efforts of the ESRB to actually allow developers to keep making games like GTA without sociopaths like Jack Thompson trying to rape thier mothers while pouring sugar in thier gas tanks.

[UnderHero5]

Besides the fact that most serial killers started off simply viewing porn isn't enough proof of the damage it can do? Yes, they had prior mental issues, obviously, but it contributed to it. Ted Bundy himself spoke of the dangers of porn just before his execution when he was interviewed (it was videotaped so I'm sure it's online somewhere). It can become an addiction like booze, drugs and cigarettes. I'm sure most wives don't appreciate it either. That's not morality, it's respecting your wife.

Respecting your wife? I thought we were talking about children?

Anyway... I just wanted to say that my girlfriend (who will one day be my wife) doesn't care that I watch porn and even watches it with me. Though she prefers hentai to porn. I respect her more than anyone I know (other than my parents).

Just wanted to let you all know how great my girlfriends is.
My old girlfriend (left hand) was the same way though.

And how exactly does porn lead to serial killing?... just because some serial killers watched porn, porn makes you a serial killer? That's asanine thinking.

Who the fuck doesn't watch porn?!?!
If you don't, you should. It can give you some nice ideas for when you're actually doing the deed with your significant other.

That's like saying masturbation leads to serial killing. I bet all those serial killers masturbated!!!
Eating breakfast leads to serial killing.

Taking a shit leads to serial killing. It's definitive proof because all serial killers took shits!! They did! It's even on the internet cuz I recorded it. I had a camera in my mouth.

Edit: Oh, and just so no one misinterprets. I wasn't saying letting children watch porn was okay. I was just saying that porn, in general, is great.
But then again, our society shouldn't be as taboo about nudity as it is. Other countries aren't. Nudity is a perfectly innocent thing until we MAKE it something different.
That said, I think nudity would be fine for a child to see. Hardcore butt-fucking, anal raping, cock-in-the-eyesocket sex might be a bit too much for a child though.

[Thenetcase]

People, please... be realistic. You can't legislate morality. You can't take one person's freedom away because another person is phsychotic and kills people. You MUST bear in mind that people make their own choices and there have been murderers and serial killers for thousands of years -- incidently that's before computers and GTA were invented, for those of you who lose track of time. ;)

The problem is no computer games. The problem is humans are frickin' psycho.

Take away the guns and they will kill each other with sticks and stones.

-TNC-

[Roc Ingersol]

Kids can't get into R rated movies or buy those CDs without a parent. Games should be treated the same way.
So we agree there should be absolutely no law on the books, and the industry should continue to police itself?

[UnderHero5]

People, please... be realistic. You can't legislate morality. You can't take one person's freedom away because another person is phsychotic and kills people. You MUST bear in mind that people make their own choices and there have been murderers and serial killers for thousands of years -- incidently that's before computers and GTA were invented, for those of you who lose track of time. ;)

The problem is no computer games. The problem is humans are frickin' psycho.

Take away the guns and they will kill each other with sticks and stones.

-TNC-

Right on. We're freaking maniacs.

I think people would use knives before sticks and stones though.
I personally would stab someone with my dick, but that's probably because I watch so much porn.
I'd smother them with my scrotum until they suffocate.
I'd sit on their face until they are forced to suck the air out of my asshole. I'd then shit in their mouths and tape it shut then piss in their nostrills.

[Abednigo]

Respecting your wife? I thought we were talking about children?

Anyway... I just wanted to say that my girlfriend (who will one day be my wife) doesn't care that I watch porn and even watches it with me. Though she prefers hentai to porn. I respect her more than anyone I know (other than my parents).

Just wanted to let you all know how great my girlfriends is.
My old girlfriend (left hand) was the same way though.

And how exactly does porn lead to serial killing?... just because some serial killers watched porn, porn makes you a serial killer? That's asanine thinking.

Who the fuck doesn't watch porn?!?!
If you don't, you should. It can give you some nice ideas for when you're actually doing the deed with your significant other.

That's like saying masturbation leads to serial killing. I bet all those serial killers masturbated!!!
Eating breakfast leads to serial killing.

Taking a shit leads to serial killing. It's definitive proof because all serial killers took shits!! They did! It's even on the internet cuz I recorded it. I had a camera in my mouth.

Edit: Oh, and just so no one misinterprets. I wasn't saying letting children watch porn was okay. I was just saying that porn, in general, is great.
But then again, our society shouldn't be as taboo about nudity as it is. Other countries aren't. Nudity is a perfectly innocent thing until we MAKE it something different.
That said, I think nudity would be fine for a child to see. Hardcore butt-fucking, anal raping, cock-in-the-eyesocket sex might be a bit too much for a child though.

Sorry, you'll never convince me that porn is helpful to anyone in any way, and based on your vulgar responses above I will probably never convince you of my point of view so I won't even try. But I've known far too many relationships ruined because of it and heard a MAJORITY of women that are hurt when they find out their husbands/boyfriends are looking at it. No thanks.

[drakkarim]

i think this was a stupid decision by the judge. but a side effect of this ruling will probably be that game developers will probably have an easier time dealing with the lawsuits they face from idiot parents.

[Abednigo]

So we agree there should be absolutely no law on the books, and the industry should continue to police itself?

The government needs to stay out of it. The problem is parents need to step up and make researching the games their kids want a priority. If all parents would do that, we wouldn't be having this problem. Most parents I know are getting better at that, but you hear too many stories of those that don't (and they usually end up suing a game maker and getting all the media attention).

Less government interference, more personally responsibility.

[kokyunage]

and heard a MAJORITY of women that are hurt when they find out their husbands/boyfriends are looking at it. No thanks.

That is quite possibly the most idiotic thing I've read here in a long time. Just because those “majority” of woman you heard (and based on my statistics 93.54% of the women I know like ATM) are so insecure and possibly corrupted by the moral fascists out there doesn’t mean their actions or attitude towards porn is NORMAL or HEALTHY.

[Abednigo]

Ok then, for your porn lovers, could you go without it for a week or two (or forever) without having the urge to look at it? I'm not talking about being intimate with your significant other, I'm talking about viewing porn.

I know this thread isn't even about porn, but I'm enjoying the debate, even if some of you can't debate like adults...the crude and vulgar responses give that away.

[Roc Ingersol]

Less government interference, more personally responsibility.
Then we're agreed.

i think this was a stupid decision by the judge.
Actually, it's an obvious decision.

One of the four primary considerations a judge uses to decide whether to grant an injunction is whether it's in the public interest to grant it.
As protecting free speech is always in the public's interest, it seems obvious to grant the injunction until such a time as the State can prove in a court of law that harm prevented through their law justifies possible harm caused by stifling Free Speech.

Not to mention, that under legal scrutiny, for the Act to survive the State will likely have to demonstrate that there is no artistic, scientific or educational value to videogames. (the standards that allow restrictions on strokebooks but are insufficient for similar restrictions on movies)

[Roc Ingersol]

Ok then, for your porn lovers, could you go without it for a week or two (or forever) without having the urge to look at it?
Are you implying that everyone who thinks porn isn't harmful is addicted?

[Abednigo]

Are you implying that everyone who thinks porn isn't harmful is addicted?

No of course I'm not. But consider the definition of the word addiction (particularly the 2nd definition).

1. Compulsive physiological and psychological need for a habit-forming substance.
2. The condition of being habitually or compulsively occupied with or involved in something.

People can be addicted in an unhealthy way to all sorts of things. Regardless of whether that thing is bad in and of itself having an addiction to it is unhealthy.

[UnderHero5]

Ok then, for your porn lovers, could you go without it for a week or two (or forever) without having the urge to look at it? I'm not talking about being intimate with your significant other, I'm talking about viewing porn.

Of course I could go without it. You think I always watched porn?
You think people who watch porn just sit around all day watching porn? Not everything has to be an addiction.

I watch porn sometimes. Sometimes I don't.
Now, ask me to go without masturbating and you might get a different answer *wink*

But seriously. It's not like people who watch porn have to watch it every day, that's a foolish assumption.
And the masturbation remark was even a joke. While I DO masturbate almost every day (you need to know) I could, and HAVE gone long stretches of time without doing so. It's a choice whether I watch porn/masturbate. Anything can be taken to extremes and become an addiction. Some people are porn addicts. Does that make everyone who watches porn one? No.

And who exactly is it harming if both myself and my girlfriend are fine with porn? It doesn't harm our relationship. I don't care if she watches porn. I encourage it. I think the thought of her watching porn and touching herself is quite sexy.
Most of the time when I'm watching porn I'm thinking about her while doing so anyway. How is that wrong?

I have quite strong morals, but I put them in the right places (or what I consider right, anyway, we obviously think a bit differently).
I don't lie to my girlfriend. I would never, ever cheat on her, or even think about it. We keep everything out in the open with eachother. Discuss anything that is on our minds, and it works great for us.

Most couples keep their porn watching a secret. Why? Because it's taboo. Abandon what the American society deems taboo and think for yourself.

If my girlfriend didn't want me to watch porn, I wouldn't watch it. I value her views more than my own.

And I don't mean to assume here, because I may be completely wrong. But I assume you don't have, or maybe never have had a real relationship?
Back before I actually had my first girlfriend, or hell, before I had a GOOD relationship, I felt pretty much the same as you. I never watched porn. I thought it was bad for relationships, etc. Well, it all depends on the situation and the people involved.
I've since learned to be more open to things like that and it's a pretty nice thing.

That's just my views on the subject. I think keeping things truthful between partners makes for a better relationship than anything. Lies, secrets, etc are the root of the problem, not the fact that it's porn, the fact that most guys will lie and say they don't watch it when their wives ask them. Embrace it an make it something fun for both partners and there's suddenly nothing wrong with it.

Again, just my views.

Now lay down on the ground so I can piss up your nostrils.

[Abednigo]

If my girlfriend didn't want me to watch porn, I wouldn't watch it. I value her views more than my own.
That's good to hear! :)



And I don't mean to assume here, because I may be completely wrong. But I assume you don't have, or maybe never have had a real relationship?



Yeah, you're completely wrong here. ;) At almost 31 years old I have looked at porn enough over the years, quite frequently at times, and have had my share of real relationships. My last relationship lasted almost 2 years. Porn has caused plenty of damage to the relationships I have been in (my girlfriends didn't like it one bit). For those reasons (and others), I don't look at porn anymore.

[Roc Ingersol]

No of course I'm not
Then what was your point of asking if people could go without it?

People can be addicted in an unhealthy way to all sorts of things. Regardless of whether that thing is bad in and of itself having an addiction to it is unhealthy.
Which underlines that there's no point to the question you asked. It's irrelevant. Even if someone were to stand up and be state they were a porn-addict, it doesn't validate your position that porn is naughty whatsoever.

[UnderHero5]

Yeah, you're completely wrong here. ;) At almost 31 years old I have looked at porn enough over the years, quite frequently at times, and have had my share of real relationships. My last relationship lasted almost 2 years. Porn has caused plenty of damage to the relationships I have been in (my girlfriends didn't like it one bit). For those reasons (and others), I don't look at porn anymore.

Hehe, glad I didn't completely make a blind assumption then. Just partialy ; )

Maybe you're with the wrong kind of women, hehe (not that it's necesarilly your fault). It's hard to find someone you're completely compatable with. I got damn lucky.
I'm only 23 and I've been with my girlfriend for 3 years and 7 months exactly as of last night.

She's the most important thing in my life. More important than porn, more important than videogames even. It'll always be that way.

Anyway... sorry to go on about that.

You seem nice enough. If you get Mario Kart DS we'll play together ; )

[Busted_Astromech]

Roc, I know you already made this point, but let me state it directly so there can be no confusion:

For anyone who says you shouldn't overturn laws like this becaus games should be treated like movies and music, here's a factoid: no other forms of media are regulated by law.

They're all industry-regulated. Thus even if you think minors shouldn't be allowed to buy violent games, you can still find these laws reprehensible because it's not the government's job, nor within the powers granted to it by our constitution. That's where the whole First Amendment thing comes in.

[MajSheppard]

People from Michigan are just way too smart. This is what you get when you put education before silly stuff, like repaving roads.

[kokyunage]

If my girlfriend didn't want me to watch porn, I wouldn't watch it. I value her views more than my own.

That's good to hear!

I think that’s part of the problem. When people make the mistake of is talking about sex too late in the relationship. I would personally never date a girl that would put ultimatums on me (“no porn, no _______, etc…”). And how do you find out if a girl will do that? Well, I know it sucks boys, but you actually have to talk to the girl. Even if it’s an uncomfortable topic, you have to realize SEX is a healthy part of life. If you don’t talk about it than it’s your fault if your expectations or requirements aren’t fulfilled. That’s when it becomes really fun: when both parties know the desires of the other person.

[Bone]

Besides the fact that most serial killers started off simply viewing porn isn't enough proof of the damage it can do? Yes, they had prior mental issues, obviously, but it contributed to it. Ted Bundy himself spoke of the dangers of porn just before his execution when he was interviewed (it was videotaped so I'm sure it's online somewhere). It can become an addiction like booze, drugs and cigarettes. I'm sure most wives don't appreciate it either. That's not morality, it's respecting your wife.

Man, that is so illogical I don't even know where to start.

First, there is no fact saying porn contributes to serial killers, anywhere, period. Ted Bundy spoke of the dangers? OK, trust a serial killer's warped opinion! And how many kids blamed Ozzy Osbourne or Grand Theft Auto or Doom for their crimes? Come on.

Second, many women are into porn, and until you can show me that "most" women are hurt by it, you're just posing your morality as fact. Sorry, but our laws need better than that.

Yes, porn can be addictive, like booze, cigarettes, drugs, food, the Internet- just about anything can. It's personal responsibility we're talking about. I think a parent has the job of teaching their kid about sex, and how to separate porn from reality just like they separate TV violence from reality.

[Roc Ingersol]

People from Michigan are just way too smart. This is what you get when you put education before silly stuff, like repaving roads.
You can thank the Teamsters and Michigan's weight and axle limits for that crap.

[bapenguin]

For those reasons (and others), I don't look at porn anymore.

I bet your gay. ;)

[Abednigo]

I bet your gay. ;)

Well you'd be wrong. :)

I want to end my portion of this debate by saying this. If I have come across as judgemental, I apologize. I, like most people, can get worked up when debating something they are passionate about or hold a strong view on. And respect for those with differing opinions can be lost in that. I know I did that and I'm sorry.

Now, if you don't mind, I have some packing for vacation to do. ;)

[Genital Eclipse]

Seriously, can we just start posting some porn in this thread while we're at it? I need my fix.

[Heretic Machine]

Whether they can prove it or not doesn't matter to me. A 10 year old shouldn't be able to buy a game like GTA. If his parents want to buy it for him, fine. But it's the same thing with R rated movies and CDs with explicit lyrics. Kids can't get into R rated movies or buy those CDs without a parent. Games should be treated the same way.

Then the parents shouldn't give their kids $50 to buy the game with. Either that, or get their kids to stop dealing drugs. That would be good.

[Kelegacy]

In an interesting turn of events, Michigan Judge Steeh ruled that approving of restrictions on entertainment could cause irreparable harm from the loss of First Amendment freedoms.

While this is okay with me for the most part (parents, if you dont like it, start taking a very active role in your child's game playing/buying), doesn't the restrictions on R rated movies to minors already harm the first amendment?

[Kelegacy]

Besides the fact that most serial killers started off simply viewing porn isn't enough proof of the damage it can do? Yes, they had prior mental issues, obviously, but it contributed to it. Ted Bundy himself spoke of the dangers of porn just before his execution when he was interviewed (it was videotaped so I'm sure it's online somewhere).

Holy shit, then I'm about three busted nuts shy of a psychotic rampage.

[TheKeck]

Besides the fact that most serial killers started off simply viewing porn isn't enough proof of the damage it can do? Yes, they had prior mental issues, obviously, but it contributed to it. Ted Bundy himself spoke of the dangers of porn just before his execution when he was interviewed (it was videotaped so I'm sure it's online somewhere). It can become an addiction like booze, drugs and cigarettes. I'm sure most wives don't appreciate it either. That's not morality, it's respecting your wife.

I'd just like to say that I love the fact that somebody at this site actually spoke out against porn rather than support it. I agree completely that pornography is a very bad thing and helps nobody.

I know that I've already said enough to receive a slew of flames from people, but I'm not trying to tell you that you can't look at porn; I'm just stating my opinion and letting Abednigo (and everybody) know that he's not alone.

[Bone]

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but wouldn't you want to base your opinion on fact? I guess some people's idea of morality stands opposed to the facts, and that's the problem I have with a lot of people in this country today. Until you can show me proof that looking at porn makes people somehow worse than those who don't, I exercise my right to scoff at that opinion.

People used to think the idea that the earth wasn't the center of the universe was morally wrong and against God's teachings, and look how well that did for them.

[KeeBaud]

What concerns me is that in allowing children full access to videogame sex and violence the industry runs the risk of enforced censorship. THAT would be a true violation of what the First Amendment stands for.

In my opinion I would be in favour of a law limiting access as the industry and society have so far been useless at preventing kids from accessing inappropriate material.

[Kelegacy]

I'd just like to say that I love the fact that somebody at this site actually spoke out against porn rather than support it. I agree completely that pornography is a very bad thing and helps nobody.

I know that I've already said enough to receive a slew of flames from people, but I'm not trying to tell you that you can't look at porn; I'm just stating my opinion and letting Abednigo (and everybody) know that he's not alone.

Why's porn bad? Is it the nudity? The moral implications? The mustached, ugly men?

[Thenetcase]

That is quite possibly the most idiotic thing I've read here in a long time. Just because those “majority” of woman you heard (and based on my statistics 93.54% of the women I know like ATM) are so insecure and possibly corrupted by the moral fascists out there doesn’t mean their actions or attitude towards porn is NORMAL or HEALTHY.

Actually, I think the "fucking idiot" award goes to you, my friend.

I hate people who have no respect for women.

I hope you die a nasty, bloody death soon.

-TNC-

[Worldcrafter]

Why's porn bad? Is it the nudity? The moral implications? The mustached, ugly men?

How about the objectification of women as nothing more than sexual objects? It's pretty demeaning for women to be treated like walking vaginas with breasts attached. I don't think it's going to turn people into serial killers, but it may teach men to think of women as objects, and that's not healthy.

[Kelegacy]

How about the objectification of women as nothing more than sexual objects? It's pretty demeaning for women to be treated like walking vaginas with breasts attached. I don't think it's going to turn people into serial killers, but it may teach men to think of women as objects, and that's not healthy.

You can get that objectification anywhere in media, not just porn. Porn, if anything, is a good thing. There have been studies that people who indulge in porn watching are less likely to commit rape or other sexually based crimes. It's like an outlet.

But anyway, more to the point. There are MEN in porn, too, and they are in nearly every scene, naked, involved in coitus just like their female counterparts. Could one argue that this is the objectification of males as sexual objects as well, carnal and lustful, animalistic to the nth degree? Does this not give men a bad name, when there is a large percentage of men that are civilized, controlled beings that respect females?

[Bone]

No, Kelegacy, that doesn't count, because nobody wants to objectify a naked man, even with an ass like a jackhammer.

[Bone]

Oh, and in regards to the original post, I think that game developers and retailers should continue to police themselves through the ESRB, like movie theaters do, and that it shouldn't be law. Because we know too many parents lack the responsibility to teach their kids properly, there is a personal responsibility to set guidelines as to the content of video games.

For instance, currently, Gamestop's policy is not to sell T or M rated games to those who aren't old enough. You can get fired for doing so. But you shouldn't get arrested for it.

Does that stop idiot parents from coming in with their petulant 7 year old, who says "Mommy, I want GTA!" and Mommy saying "whatever you want, dear."? No. Happens all the time. And honestly, that's their choice if they think their kid can handle it, but usually they don't give a damn and just want another version of e-Babysitter 2.0.

[kokyunage]

How about the objectification of women as nothing more than sexual objects? It's pretty demeaning for women to be treated like walking vaginas with breasts attached. I don't think it's going to turn people into serial killers, but it may teach men to think of women as objects, and that's not healthy.

Yeah, it happens to men too. Just at look at sports.

[TheKeck]

Why's porn bad? Is it the nudity? The moral implications? The mustached, ugly men?

Well, for me, it really mostly comes down to moral implications, which I understand is personal and subject to interpretation.

[Butters66]

But anyway, more to the point. There are MEN in porn, too, and they are in nearly every scene, naked, involved in coitus just like their female counterparts. Could one argue that this is the objectification of males as sexual objects as well, carnal and lustful, animalistic to the nth degree? Does this not give men a bad name, when there is a large percentage of men that are civilized, controlled beings that respect females?

That's why I only watch lesbian porn. I want to make sure I don't objectify men.