Girls, Games, Geeks and the Industry

[bapenguin]

Today for your reading pleasure, I've posted an editorial and interview (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=131212) regarding all the recent media attention girls in games has got. I had a chance to talk with AthenaTwin, Clan Leader of the PMS Clan (http://www.pmsclan.com) on the topic. bapenguin: Why is it important for Women in gaming to gain exposure? Some people think it's just a craving for more attention.
AthenaTwin: One thing I would like to point out is that exposure for ANY gamer, be they female or male, is important to the gaming community as a whole. ANYTHING gaming related that gets the mainstream audience's attention helps bring interest, and therefore money, into the gaming industry on all levels...including sponsorships of tournaments, sponsorships of teams, and more products. Women teams do this, regardless if people disagree with the attention or not. Fact is, female players/female teams transcend into the hard-core gamers, casual gamers, male/female, and mainstream audiences, something most males do not do. Why? Because there really are so few of us doing it at this time in the hard-core male dominated games like FPS. The most important thing for ME is that female teams show other women that gaming can be done by them, which brings more women to the gaming scene. This increased interest should create more women who pursue careers/education in the gaming industry (i.e. techsupport, graphic/creative design). I see female team exposure bringing more women in the industry, period, which could create a wonderful diversity & creative appeal to the industry as a whole.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Meh... I dont like hearing people go on about females getting more rep for anything. Its not the 1800s I think shits more or less even now... even in gaming.

[StGeorge]

Geez, nice question, asking a girl if all girl gamers are "whoring", lol, got some issues with females my friend?

[Vball PMS]

Well when I play matchmade games in Halo2 4 out of 5 times I come across people who don't respect girl gamers. Day in and day out we are put down and talked down to just because we are girls who play video games. If we win a game they will say we are fat or ugly but if we lose they say we are girls and girls can't play video games. so do you call that even?

[bapenguin]

Geez, nice question, asking a girl if all girl gamers are "whoring", lol, got some issues with females my friend?

Umm...I guess you didn't read the article did ya? I really couldn't think of another term for garnering media attention just because it makes you feel good.

[Qoz]

Are you serious? Very few women are hardcore gamers. Thats a fact.
They gain attention in the hardcore gaming community because they are girls and the community consist of guys. Guys like to watch girls. Its that simple.

By hardcore I mean the kind of people that upgrade with expensive parts to play F.E.A.R. for example.

Women are gamers - just not hardcore.
They often play card-games in Windows and perhaps Nintendogs, Sims2 and Dance Revolution. They probably have 3rd generation cheap 3Dcards or a laptop with limited 3D hardware.

There is a gap between casual gaming and the hardcore crowd.
If a game places itself between these 2 audiences it will probably lose appeal to both. Blizzard is the master of creating games that attract both. Few do it succesfully though.

I understand the pro. male hardcore gaming crowd being irritated by the girls getting easy attention - especially if they play better. But then again.. its only gaming!

[KeeBaud]

If society has taught me one thing it's that girls can't drive, understand the off-side rule, or play computer games.

FLAME ON! :P

(The opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the poster. All comments to be accepted in good humour)

[AlmostSente]

Well when I play matchmade games in Halo2 4 out of 5 times I come across people who don't respect girl gamers. Day in and day out we are put down and talked down to just because we are girls who play video games. If we win a game they will say we are fat or ugly but if we lose they say we are girls and girls can't play video games. so do you call that even?

Funny, that happens to us male gamers as well. We are girls when we lose or fat / ugly / cheaters when winning. :)

[Ghost_Saint]

Somehow, I just don't think that the problem is with women not thinking they are able to play video games. This isn't an analogy for voting rights.

There's plenty of women out there that play games like 'The Sims'. They don't play "Hardcore FPS" games because there's simply less appeal to them in that sort of game, it's got nothing to do with their ability. It's the same kind of thing that women will always like Romance movies more than guys will.

Me myself, finding a girl who can beat me at Halo is a big turn on.

[StGeorge]

Umm...I guess you didn't read the article did ya? I really couldn't think of another term for garnering media attention just because it makes you feel good.

How about:

Some people think they are just "attention sluts"
Some people think they are just "attention ho-bags"
Some people think they are just "attention cock sleeves"

:)

Or:

Some people think they are just craving for attention.

[AniAko]

Geez, nice question, asking a girl if all girl gamers are "whoring", lol, got some issues with females my friend?
How about:

Some people think they are just "attention sluts"
Some people think they are just "attention ho-bags"
Some people think they are just "attention cock sleeves"

:confused: :confused: :confused:
Yeah, quality pickup-line yourself there buddy.

[Paranoia]

Girls & gaming is overrated.

The same thing happened when it was girls & Internet, girls & soccer, girls & extreme sports, etc.

Let's just move on.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Girls & gaming is overrated.

The same thing happened when it was girls & Internet, girls & soccer, girls & extreme sports, etc.

Let's just move on.


Exactly...

[Frogleg Special]

Halo 2 is too accessible (console and all).

Try UT2004 or Counter-Strike: Source. That's Hardcore.

[RandomViolence]

Halo 2 is too accessible (console and all).

Try UT2004 or Counter-Strike: Source. That's Hardcore.

Goddammit, I just want to beat you every time you post.

[drakkarim]

i don't care what they are, whether they're male/female, they can all go to hell as far as i'm concerned, all their stupid sponsorships gets the community is higher prices on components.

buncha wannabe's.

[swiftdraw]

Halo 2 is too accessible (console and all).

Try UT2004 or Counter-Strike: Source. That's Hardcore.

I dis-agree with CS:S. I could never see that as a "hard-core" game, though like HALO, it has it's fanatics.

I don't see what the fuss is about with girls and gaming. My sis plays with no problems on CS:S, the Battlefields and is addicted to HL2 and the old NES Marios. She owns me on a regular basis on console games (I hate the controls) and ignores or targets anyone who gives her flak while playing. She plays like everyone else I know, so what is the big deal?

[drakkarim]

there's no 'hardcore' anything, there's just fans, fanatics, and freaks, period. what's 'hardcore' about playing ANY game over and over and over?? that's just being a fan, and in some cases a fanatic, and in many cases, just a freak...

[swiftdraw]

there's no 'hardcore' anything, there's just fans, fanatics, and freaks, period. what's 'hardcore' about playing ANY game over and over and over?? that's just being a fan, and in some cases a fanatic, and in many cases, just a freak...

True, true. Now how do you tell the difference between a fanatic and a freak?

[H.Bogard]

True, true. Now how do you tell the difference between a fanatic and a freak?

One play's F.E.A.R. at 640x480 and the other plays it on a 7800GTX

[Roc Ingersol]

Funny, that happens to us male gamers as well. We are girls when we lose or fat / ugly / cheaters when winning. :)
QfT.

I don't doubt women catch some extra crap from the degenerates in our passtime (e.g. 'are you really a girl', etc). But quite a bit of the routine examples of gender-bias is just a reflection of the overall immaturity of the vocal segment of network gaming.

It's like approaching the entire gaming community as racist and homophobic just because every other immature punk on the internet drops the N-bomb and crude jokes whenever possible. Those little bastards will say whatever they can to get your dander up.

But they're not representative of the passtime or the community at large. They're just the most vocal.

Internet gaming just doesn't have effective tools to socially punish impropriety. Until that changes, you really can't make broad judgements based on what the people who won't shut up have to say.

[fitbabits]

Nice interview, bapenguin.

In response to the people who crow about the attention that women gamers like PMS receive - it's a sad fact of life that gaming is male-dominated. Women are too often looked upon as weaker or less skilled than their male counterparts. It's about time that women got together and kicked some male chauvinistic arse. And you know what - you could always play against them and try to prove your point. Preferably without disconnecting when they are handing it to you!

Would you complain to the same degree if there was a similar group set up by African Americans? Or perhaps worse still - African American women??

[drakkarim]

True, true. Now how do you tell the difference between a fanatic and a freak?

to me, the freak is the one that has no life outside one or two particular games, i.e. is completely engrossed by/addicted to one or two games, usually at the cost of any kind of a 'normal' social life.

the fanatic is the one that upgrades his computer yearly (or more often), and and plays a bigger selection of games. but is mindful of having a somewhat 'normal' social life outside the gaming.

someone who plays say WoW for 2 hours a day during the weekday and maybe a bit more during the weekends and then calls it a 'night' (for the gaming part) is 'merely' a fan.

[Rakael]

Girls who game, sorry but I'm just not all that impressed. It isn't that I feel some threat to my male "superiority" or some other such nonesense, its that I'm married to one. She could (and often did) easily pwn my ass in UT2k4, and I was no slouch. She loves J-RPGs, platformers, FPSs, and just about every other kind of game that I do; not just Animal Crossing, Harvest Moon, or some silly card game. Just as I feel no threat by women gamers, its not like I hold them in some kind of mystical light either. She plays games for the same reason I do, she enjoys them.

It may seem like I am bashing PMS or other all women clans, and that is simply not the case. I think its great that you guys are gamers, as the gaming community needs all of the sensible people it can get, be they male or female.

[bapenguin]

Girls who game, sorry but I'm just not all that impressed. It isn't that I feel some threat to my male "superiority" or some other such nonesense, its that I'm married to one. She could (and often did) easily pwn my ass in UT2k4, and I was no slouch. She loves J-RPGs, platformers, FPSs, and just about every other kind of game that I do; not just Animal Crossing, Harvest Moon, or some silly card game. Just as I feel no threat by women gamers, its not like I hold them in some kind of mystical light either. She plays games for the same reason I do, she enjoys them.

The thing is, you and your wife are in a very small %, and to most male gamers, it's a suprise.

[Goronmon]

Its fanboy, not fangirl and that is a scientific fact!

[Roc Ingersol]

To most male gamers, talking to a woman in any setting is a surprise.

:D

[DoubleUranium]

I guess I just don't see what the big deal is about women gamers. Just sit down and play the game because you are interested in playing the game, just like everyone else. Why these girls need to feel special about it is beyond me. You don't see articles in the newspaper "Women who like to watch Football - How can we make football more accessible to women?" It's not like they have to grow a dick or something to play Halo 2.

[TrackZero]

Its fanboy, not fangirl and that is a scientific fact!

I love lamp.

[Ghost_Saint]

Nice interview, bapenguin.

In response to the people who crow about the attention that women gamers like PMS receive - it's a sad fact of life that gaming is male-dominated. Women are too often looked upon as weaker or less skilled than their male counterparts. It's about time that women got together and kicked some male chauvinistic arse. And you know what - you could always play against them and try to prove your point. Preferably without disconnecting when they are handing it to you!

Would you complain to the same degree if there was a similar group set up by African Americans? Or perhaps worse still - African American women??

Last time I checked there weren't little male and female symbols in any game I've played to tell me who's a man and who's a woman, or what race they are. How someone else finds out is beyond me. Everyone looks like master chief in Halo no matter who's holding the controler. And don't get me started about the number of men who play female characters in MMORPGs.

To tell you the truth, nerdom is dominated by males, but not really because they staunchly oppose females being nerds, quite the opposite.

[kickmybum]

Girl gaming is cool, me thinks, and I encourage it. It wouldn't be that big of a deal if the guy gamers didn't act all (spray your pic! you must be ugly! girls suck!) weird about it. No one would care.

[Bushido]

Yet another great in house interview. Too bad its the same old sensational crap I read about in the escapist. Who the fuck names their giuld PMS anyways? Why not butterfly and roses and or really cool lower back tattoos.

[bapenguin]

or really cool lower back tattoos.

LBT

That's a cool clan name.

[bardockkun]

I love lamp.
I love chair.

As for female gamers, just go to an anime convention or something. Beneath the large plump exterior of fat female cosplayers there are actually attractive female gamers. Though majority of them just play Final Fantasy which i think is more easy for female gamers to access.

[sicker]

LBT

That's a cool clan name.

Seconded.

RCLBT for the win.

[Citizen Philip]

I think the gaming population is comprised of combination of geeky and competative people: some do it to win, some play for 'excitment' of the action.

If most geeky and competative people are guys, then I guess you have a mostly male audience. There's ice skating and dancing, which apparently has a mostly female audience, I guess whatever it is about doing stuff on skates that doesn't involve wooden sticks and rubber pucks has more appeal to women: I don't care about either, even if as a guy I am supposedly more inclined to watch hockey, I don't.

I don't care who you are or what you do, as long as you don't cheat and are a good sport. A team that is "all female" makes about as much sense in computer gaming as a team of "all left handers" or a team of "all those born in the month of June": it bares no relavance to the medium, unless you are trying to prove your "team of only X" has a certain value over any other team: which I would think, is patently false.

You either play well, or you don't.

[Goronmon]

I love lamp.
Do you really love the lamp Track? Or are you just saying that because you saw it?

[StGeorge]

:confused: :confused: :confused:
Yeah, quality pickup-line yourself there buddy.

Are people really this dense that they cannot comprehend the most basic forms of humor on the inter-webs? Even with the smiley put there specifically for the densest of people to understand its a joke, it still doesn't help you.

[TrackZero]

Do you really love the lamp Track? Or are you just saying that because you saw it?

I love carpet.

[Vball PMS]

Well I know a whole bunch of girl gamers who kick ass and they play in MLG PRO tourneys tell me thats not hardcore gaming! plus MLG style play is hardcore and I love playing for fun and competing it just baffles me why when people here girl gamer they think of just games like the sims or tetris. well I play FPS games all the time.

[Goronmon]

Well I know a whole bunch of girl gamers who kick ass and they play in MLG PRO tourneys tell me thats not hardcore gaming! plus MLG style play is hardcore and I love playing for fun and competing it just baffles me why when people here girl gamer they think of just games like the sims or tetris. well I play FPS games all the time.
Its not because girl gamers are "teh suq" or anything, its just that the majority of females who are into gaming are into genres other than FPS. Hell, my mom gets into gaming, but there are only certain games she will play, like Zelda or Katamari, etc. Right now she is playing Shadows of the Colossus, which is a big step up for her as far as the "twitch-based" skills go, and I really don't see her going beyond that.

Its not that girl gamers can't compete with guys in games like Halo or UT, its just that most don't choose those types of games to play in general.

[Aries7777]

Well when I play matchmade games in Halo2 4 out of 5 times I come across people who don't respect girl gamers. Day in and day out we are put down and talked down to just because we are girls who play video games. If we win a game they will say we are fat or ugly but if we lose they say we are girls and girls can't play video games. so do you call that even?
Shutup Peon, jk. Girls can be just as good gamers sure, but who the fuck cares? I think its just craving attention. I just want to keep playing games, I really don't care if I'm playing a girl or a guy.

[evil_genius]

Ima girl who loves ungirly games. This is what's gonna happen to you when and if you have/get a boring job. You are going to end up at .www.entertainmentanytime.com. where you can thrash this guy around the back of a cab. It's absurd, but I think the fun of the game is making him hurl. It is very satisfying. To make the cab guy (actually the passenger) vomit hit the L and R arrow keys at the same time and then quickly three times. This causes the taxi to swerve left and right. Once the user lets go, the passenger will vomit. Oh man I must be bored... hehheheh. Girls rule!

[AniAko]

Are people really this dense that they cannot comprehend the most basic forms of humor on the inter-webs? Even with the smiley put there specifically for the densest of people to understand its a joke, it still doesn't help you.

Oh sorry I was joking too, but I forgot to add the smiley. It can't be a joke if there isn't a smiley

:D

[evil_genius]

If society has taught me one thing it's that girls can't drive, understand the off-side rule, or play computer games.

FLAME ON! :P

(The opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the poster. All comments to be accepted in good humour)
I can't believe you wrote that. I know 5 different computer programming languages and have my degree in CIS. WT?????

[TrackZero]

I can't believe you wrote that. I know 5 different computer programming languages and have my degree in CIS. WT?????

I guess the point is society hasn't taught him anything. ;)

[pumpkinfoot]

I completely understand that society has brainwashed people into thinking that not as many girls like videogames as guys and that girls just don't want to play certain kinds of games. Unfortunately, though I understand this, it's complete horseshit.

I couldn't even begin to list off all the names of the games I've played in my lifetime, they've run the gambit from violent action games like Half-Life and Halo to puzzle games like Myst.

I played Diablo, Starcraft, HalfLife, Halo, Wing Commander, Panzer General, KOTOR, and basically every other Star Wars game ever invented, including Tie Fighter and X-wing games. I played Baldur's Gate and stupid old games like Hell: A Cyberpunk Thriller. Fallout 1 and 2 are my favorite games evar! I played Homeworld, Vampyre, Thief, and Lox. Hitman, Mechwarrior 1, 2, 3, Mercenaries, etc, etc. Legend of Zelda (all of them), James Bond, Perfect Dark, Battle Arena Toshinden.......I could go on for days and days about the games I've played. This barely scratches the surface.

Anyhow. I am goint to tell you all that I am an attractive woman of 28 years who has a very full life, and loves to play videogames (and am rather good at them). But none of you are going to believe me.

Girl gamers really *don't* exist unless they're fat and ugly, or they suck at gaming, because the majority of people out there don't give them the benefit of the doubt. Mostly due to the fact that stupid men have forever claimed to be sexy women on the internet only to have their cover blown and look like stupid fools. So it's a vicious cycle and nothing will ever come of it.

Carry on.

btw, i meant everything i said. i am a girl. i am pretty. i do play games. so bite me. :P

[TrackZero]

I completely understand that society has brainwashed people into thinking that not as many girls like videogames as guys and that girls just don't want to play certain kinds of games. Unfortunately, though I understand this, it's complete horseshit.

I couldn't even begin to list off all the names of the games I've played in my lifetime, they've run the gambit from violent action games like Half-Life and Halo to puzzle games like Myst.

I played Diablo, Starcraft, HalfLife, Halo, Wing Commander, Panzer General, KOTOR, and basically every other Star Wars game ever invented, including Tie Fighter and X-wing games. I played Baldur's Gate and stupid old games like Hell: A Cyberpunk Thriller. Fallout 1 and 2 are my favorite games evar! I played Homeworld, Vampyre, Thief, and Lox. Hitman, Mechwarrior 1, 2, 3, Mercenaries, etc, etc. Legend of Zelda (all of them), James Bond, Perfect Dark, Battle Arena Toshinden.......I could go on for days and days about the games I've played. This barely scratches the surface.

Anyhow. I am goint to tell you all that I am an attractive woman of 28 years who has a very full life, and loves to play videogames (and am rather good at them). But none of you are going to believe me.

Girl gamers really *don't* exist unless they're fat and ugly, or they suck at gaming, because the majority of people out there don't give them the benefit of the doubt. Mostly due to the fact that stupid men have forever claimed to be sexy women on the internet only to have their cover blown and look like stupid fools. So it's a vicious cycle and nothing will ever come of it.

Carry on.

btw, i meant everything i said. i am a girl. i am pretty. i do play games. so bite me. :P

Well, I'm sure it's a stereotype that will fade away with time. Unforunately, probably not until we're old and in wheelchairs, as it takes a generation or two to usually sort these things out.

[Vball PMS]

It is so amazing how many people can be so ignorant... WOW

[evil_genius]

Everybody ought to just drop the subject bcuz there are no scientists here. If there are and you have research fess up otherwise chill out on the boys versus girls stuff. Who cares really?

[gamer4life]

Nice interview, bapenguin.

In response to the people who crow about the attention that women gamers like PMS receive - it's a sad fact of life that gaming is male-dominated. Women are too often looked upon as weaker or less skilled than their male counterparts. It's about time that women got together and kicked some male chauvinistic arse. And you know what - you could always play against them and try to prove your point. Preferably without disconnecting when they are handing it to you!

Would you complain to the same degree if there was a similar group set up by African Americans? Or perhaps worse still - African American women??

I think it is good that girl gamers get a lot of attention because it sends a message out to the public that girls can do things just as good as guys can or better. but unfortionately most people chose not to believe that a girl can be good at anything or even kick their ass at it.