PC Devs "Shoot Themselves In the Foot"

[Emabulator]

Edge Online spoke with Relic Entertainment's Tim Holman (senior producer for Relic and Company of Heroes) covering how he feels the PC isn't "dying" and developers need to make games that work on rigs with lower-specs. "I think one of the things that hurt PC gaming is PC developers," he said. "If you make a game with such high-end requirements that only people with a $6,000 PC can play it at a decent framerate, of course your sales are going to drop."

Holman continued, "And of course people are going to pirate your game more, because they don't want to invest in your game first. They want to try it first for free [to see if it's compatible with their hardware].

"I think PC developers shoot themselves in the foot to a large degree. A lot of companies are guilty of that."Follow this link (http://www.edge-online.com/news/pc-devs-shoot-themselves-in-foot) to read the full article.

[Evil Avatar]

Why do all these game developers keep referring to $6000.00 PC's? If that is what developers are spending on their PC's, they are making too much money!

[thehardac]

I believe its called an "exaggeration" to drive home a point.

[Emabulator]

I believe its called an "exaggeration" to drive home a point.Come on now! How's a guy supposed to churn out code without triple GTX 280s, a water cooled 4.2GHz quad-core and 8 gigs of RAM? :rolleyes:

[trip1eX]

Yeah it's an exaggeration, but that's how folks feel. The gaming media certainly spreads that notion around too.

Buggy games didn't help pcgaming either. And unoptimized shtty ports don't help.

[ElektroDragon]

The only way to save PC gaming is to adopt Games for Windows LIVE immediately!

[Tikki]

The only way to save PC gaming is to adopt Games for Windows LIVE immediately!You forgot one thing. All games need to be DX10 only since we all ran out and purchased Vista day 1.

[ElfShotTheFood]

I hope the eight developers who still make PC-only games read that article. ;)

[Evil Avatar]

You forgot one thing. All games need to be DX10 only since we all ran out and purchased Vista day 1.

LOL. That reminds me of the 'I'm a Mac' commercial where PC is just bleeping out the word Vista all the time.

[MasterEvilAce]

So.. what you guys are saying is...

it's developers, developers, developers, developers?

[Emabulator]

LOL. That reminds me of the 'I'm a Mac' commercial where PC is just bleeping out the word Vista all the time.LOL. I told my wife I need one of those red buzzer buttons to bleep her out while I'm trying to watch the Jets game each week. ;)

[XxSATANxX]

Let see I just replaced my AMD 1800 512 of Ram Geforce 6200 machine after 6 years.

I built a $500

3 Ghtz Intel Dual Core
4 Gig of Ram
Geforce 9800 GT
Windows XP

Machine that runs Crysis,COD 4, Bioshock like silk everything max.

Not exactly state of the art but really WTF game needs SLI, 8 Gigs etc?

I missed a few games that I'm playing now finally.

Attn developers. Pirates suck no doubt! DRM sucks as well.

Seems like PC gaming went the way of the golden goose with everyone cutting open the poor thing to see if more was inside. I think we sell many more PC's then we do consoles no?

[Schnoogs]

You always develop against what you think the next gen is like...by the time its done a machine that costs $1500 out performs your $6000 dev rig.

[Azriel77]

Prices are always going down. That $6000 PC will be $300 in a few short years.

[Rhaze]

PC gaming has always been an investment. Play the right parts/stocks and get your money's worth for as long as the value lasts.

[JazGalaxy]

Well, the real problem here is that it's cheaper to buy a high performance "next gen" console than it is to buy a similarly configured PC. Videocards alone run for the price of a console, and that's not counting everything else you need to make a computer run.

PC Developers are forced to build bleeding edge games because it's what gamers expect. They obviously don't want to see anything on PC that is inferior to what they could buy on console...

the REAL problem here is the self proclaimed "graphics whores" who care nothing for gameplay. They won't buy a computer game, even if it's good, unless it has technically impressive visuals. They want a fireworks display.

[gojira]

I gotta agree with one premise of the article: I'd be more inclined to buy a game if it ran well on my mid-level laptop (NVIDIA 9700GT, I think).

I disagree however with the notion that I'd pirate a game to "test" it. I don't. If the specs on the box don't match, I don't buy it. It's that simple.

[Mr.Green]

Let see I just replaced my AMD 1800 512 of Ram Geforce 6200 machine after 6 years.

I built a $500

3 Ghtz Intel Dual Core
4 Gig of Ram
Geforce 9800 GT
Windows XP

Machine that runs Crysis,COD 4, Bioshock like silk everything max.

Not exactly state of the art but really WTF game needs SLI, 8 Gigs etc?

I missed a few games that I'm playing now finally.

Attn developers. Pirates suck no doubt! DRM sucks as well.

Seems like PC gaming went the way of the golden goose with everyone cutting open the poor thing to see if more was inside. I think we sell many more PC's then we do consoles no?

I'll be nice and forget about the monitor, but does your $500 rig have a case, power-supply, motherboard, DVD drive, Hard-disk, mouse and keyboard?

[TalkingOctopus]

Doesn't Company of Heroes need a beastified computer to run smoothly?

[Tempest261]

Doesn't Company of Heroes need a beastified computer to run smoothly?

No, it doesn't. And it still looks gorgeous.

[Tempest261]

The only way to save PC gaming is to adopt Games for Windows LIVE immediately!

Games for Windows Live is a disaster. Steam is the only way to go. I just loaded up Left 4 Dead- the features they just added with the "Steam Cloud" are incredible.

[modeps]

I'll be nice and forget about the monitor, but does your $500 rig have a case, power-supply, motherboard, DVD drive, Hard-disk, mouse and keyboard?

I'm sure the $500 does not include a monitor, mouse, or keyboard. But I can see the price including everything else. I purchased a beefy machine sans monitor early this year for just about the same price after rebates... and it runs everything really well. Not super and maxed out on everything (only some things) because I skimped specifically for price, but I'm not on 'low' settings either.

[Shifter]

"Holman continued, "And of course people are going to pirate your game more, because they don't want to invest in your game first. They want to try it first for free [to see if it's compatible with their hardware."

What a load of crap. I've never bought this argument. I'd bet that the people who know how to download and crack software titles already know EXACTLY what their PCs can and can't run. Pirating, though easy, does require a certain level of sophistication that is miles beyond the average home pc user. And Crysis shipped a demo, as do most decent pc games. "Just trying the game before buying" is the lamest excuse ever for thievery.

[AlfredT]

I am a pretty avid pc gamer, but recently this year 5/6 games i bought for my pc/laptop had complications.

I dont run the top of the line pc, but it gets the job done. I am also a computer technician so I can generally work around most problems.

But I agree that some PC Dev's decisions about copy protection and general compatibility issues make PC games sometimes unenjoyable to setup. or even impossible to play.

For example, I just recently purchased Fallout 3 for my laptop (Toshiba Satellite x200aa3). And even though I should have purchased it on steam, I wanted the collectors edition with all the lil extras. Stupid me. First problem, my dvd drive, TSST 600D series, wont read the DVD. Ive had this same problem with some securom discs and some random DVDs (warhammer online). So thats ok, I do a network install, but then I recall that I need the DVD functioning for the securom test.

Long story short, instead of playing the game immediately had I purchased it on steam or console, i tried for about 3 hours to get it running in my DVD. Then i gave up went to megagames and got the crack.

This is just an issue that is shared by the DVD manufacturer and possibly Toshiba, but this is the sort of issue thats making PC gaming unpopular. In our culture of insta-gratification, its much easier to get an XBOX360 or PS3 and just plug and play.

But as I said this isnt the exception, this seems to be near the norm. Just a few more examples..

Blazing Angels 1 & 2 (Plays fine, installs fine, sound issues persist on my PC despite me replacing onboard sound with XiFi)

Age of Pirates (Bad game design, alt tab crashes game.)

Mass Effect (Had to pirate as purchased version did not work/patches did not help)

Warhammer Online (DVD issues, could not install directly)

etc

Of course PCs have their many advantages but now and then they can bite you in the ass like this. PC gaming can be rewarding but you probably need an assload of patience now and then.

[RMan]

PC Developers are forced to build bleeding edge games because it's what gamers expect.
Not true, never been true. Gamers have not pigeonholed developers into a no-win situation.

The biggest money making game in the history of gaming, and still biggest money maker, is WoW, on the PC, and having lower graphics specs than any current gen console. Gamers on every platform prove over and over again that graphics are just a small aspect of the games they love. When a game developer fails to recognize that, it's their failing, not the gamers, the gamers have made their point quite clear.

[Syl]

I buy PC games very often. Last month alone I got Fallout 3, FarCry 2, World of Goo, Hinterland and Multiwinia. The month before that was STALKER: CS and Overlord($10!)

I'm running a lower end machine compared to what's available these days, a measley Athlon X2 4600+ and an 8800GT. I still can play most of everything that i've bought at close to max settings and maintain a good frame rate. Some games require more tweaks than others. (STALKER:CS was insanely buggy when it first came out) but it's worth it for some of the absolutely amazing visuals the PC can offer:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/th_xrengine2008-09-2423-27-51-74.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/?action=view&current=xrengine2008-09-2423-27-51-74.jpg)

Fallout 3, while an amazing game with an equally amazing art style, was actually probably the least technically impressive game i've played on my PC recently. (Well of higher quality releases. Hinterland is decidedly ugly as sin, but fun as hell).



Of course PCs have their many advantages but now and then they can bite you in the ass like this. PC gaming can be rewarding but you probably need an assload of patience now and then.[/quoet]
I tend to not have to worry about the majority of problems that most people seem to have when it comes to PC game releases. Maybe it's because I hand picked every part of my case and I have an adequate knowledge of programming and hardware. Keep the drivers up to date, keep your PC clean of bullshit and things should run fine. Admittedly, it's a lot more work than it takes for a 360, but I believe the payoff is generally worth it. Superior visuals as well as Superior controls (For FPS/RTS at least).

[quote]View Post
I'll be nice and forget about the monitor, but does your $500 rig have a case, power-supply, motherboard, DVD drive, Hard-disk, mouse and keyboard?
A friend of mine recently specced out a gaming system for $425 with every component but a monitor that would be able to play games at 1280x1024 (Superior to the 720p that the 360/PS3 display) at very close to high settings. It's not that difficult to actually do if you have a knowledge of hardware. Admittedly, getting a monitor and a copy of Windows will make things more expensive; but then again, a computer operating system allows for *many* more activities than simply "gaming".

[Syl]

Stupid lack of an edit button, i think the previous post is still legible enough.

...I also bought Spore in the past few months, I don't know how i forgot spore, i was playing it last night. That game actually had the most technical problems of all the games I've played on PC recently (Even more than stalker). These problems were simply because of really fucking stupid design, not bugs.

[sprankton]

Why do all these game developers keep referring to $6000.00 PC's? If that is what developers are spending on their PC's, they are making too much money!

I agree you dont been a Computer thats over 2000 unless you want the latest and greatest, but I also love how this is coming from the dev team of COH which rapes my computer.

[Syl]

Developers need $6000 computers. They have to play the game on unfinished code and RAW textures and polygons. Not to mention all of the initial compiling and ray tracing.

These things are insanely demanding, the end result that we usually get is after they've taken the original extremely high quality polygon models and textures and then lowered the quality enough to be playable. If every texture is lossless, the amount of videoram required is absolutely unbelievable. Not to mention the bandwidth required to utilize it.

This is without even getting into the massive rendering required for high quality FMV's and other effects that the actual game engine can't pull off in realtime.

Sadly, making the basics for a game is nowhere near as simple or exciting as Mod tools let it become. Go check out the Half-Life 2 cinema mod which replaces all the textures normally in the game with something closer to 4 megapixels.

[PacerDawn]

Let see I just replaced my AMD 1800 512 of Ram Geforce 6200 machine after 6 years.

I built a $500

LOL, you guys kill me.

This is the exact mentality that the author is getting at. FYI, the average user doesn't go online, price parts, and piece together the ultimate dream machine. They go down to Best Buy or Circuit City or Dell and get whatever package they sell. The average user also doesnt drop $500 a year so they can play the latest games.

What if people had to buy a new xbox every year to play the latest games? I seriously doubt you would see the console industry doing very well were that the case. Yet, that is exactly what happens with PC. Every year you have to buy a new part or two in order to play games with a decent framerate.

PC game programmers are always programming for the next generation of hardware. Meanwhile, console developers are restricted to the specifications of the console. You are guaranteed that xbox 360 game that comes out next year will work on your xbox 360. You get no such guarantee with a PC.

[StANTo]

The average user also doesnt drop $500 a year so they can play the latest games.

Possibly the only piece of truth in your post. Because most don't need to.

What if people had to buy a new xbox every year to play the latest games? I seriously doubt you would see the console industry doing very well were that the case. Yet, that is exactly what happens with PC. Every year you have to buy a new part or two in order to play games with a decent framerate.

The life cycle of a well planned, self built computer system tends to be just as long as a console's life cycle. The X-Box 360 that's available now has had quite a long 'shelf life' and PC hardware has already matched it, and surpassed it.

Games are now being released with the capability of automatically detecting the best settings for a computer system; and if there's any 'performance lag' it is usually down to supporting features and enhancements that you wouldn't usually see on a console (new pixel shader revisions, directx versions, physics engines, sound support).

In fact I would guarantee that if there was any detrimental performance it is mostly down to poor porting of a game/game engine with little to no optimisation for the new platform (there has been displays of poor performance of Playstation ports of Gamecube games, or vice versa. Quake 4 on xbox 360 anyone?).

Less the fact that the majority of folks who build a system may not be aware of the bottlenecks in a PC that are causing low framerates (ie. Jo Bloggs may assume to get 'prettier and faster graphics' he purely needs a better GPU where as it may be CPU limited).

In my eyes there appears to still be an issue with the purchase of 'off shelf' computer systems. There's the business model stigmatism that the company you're purchasing from doesn't want you to have a 'build that will last' as they will want more money from you in the future; but that aside there is only a trickle of 'rigs' out there garnered to 'the ultimate gaming machine'. In the UK at least most places that're selling such setups are often lacking in one area, creating a bottleneck.

Furthermore I'm seeing an increase in laptop users; whether for portability or just to have a 'small computer of your own' and these by design are poorer than your usual desktop system. As a moderator for the Acclaim Bots!! forums usually the people trying to play the games there are running intel graphics adapters from systems meant more for 'office work' that is the 'family pc' or a laptop that is meant for business work.

A bit of research on anyone's part when it comes to PCs and these setups can be made to last several years; not just 'once every year'.

PC is a technical device used for multiple purposes, a console device is garnered for one purpose. Untill the PC is abstracted and setup as a device purely for 'gaming' there's going to be technical expertise, time and research required to set it up for the role designated.

That's why consoles were created, it's just a mini pc, but a PC can be made to be essentially 'a console'.

[MacD]

I think the whole "pirate to test the game" thing means exactly that. It does NOT mean that the people who download the game don't know if their rig can handle the game....they pretty often have a pretty good idea of what their rig SHOULD be able to handle. The 'testing' means 'lets see what the dumb DRM and buggy programmers have done this time and let's see if this game actually starts without CTD'ing'. In other words: seeing if they can actualyy PLAY the game/get it to start up.