Jim Merrick Interview - Nintendo Online and Revolution Launch Strategy

[fitbabits]

Eurogamer (http://www.eurogamer.net) has posted an interview (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=61604) with Jim Merrick, Nintendo Europe's senior vice president of marketing.

"We've been on the sidelines of online gaming for a long time - we just didn't see the right combination of value for the consumer and technology and gameplay," says Merrick.

"Now I think the time is right. We talked about the promise of Wi-Fi when we first introduced DS and now we can show you, with Mario Kart and with Tony Hawk, what Nintendo's vision of online gaming is.""We're very serious about trying to be a more global company and not follow the stereotypical formula of [launching a console in] Japan first, then the US, then Europe some time later," Merrick says. So does that mean the Revolution could be the first console to launch in Europe first?

"Anything's possible. There are no rules that it must be Japan or US first."
Merrick also throws down the gauntlet to Mark Rein of Epic who famously labelled the Revolution controller as "gimmicky" and "crappy" (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=61438).

[DaedalusFolly]

I saw a commercial last night for Nintendo WiFi. It was humorous and involved ninjas... A+

[Captain Awesome]

Mark Rein calling something "gimmicky and crappy"?


Oh the irony...

[NoName]

"No. When I talk about music and movies, I mean you might download a trailer for a game, or in-game music. But our business is interactive entertainment - we're not looking to be the home multimedia broadband portal, they can fight over that." We think we know who "they" are, even though he's not saying.

Speaking of which, when it comes to the question of Blu-Ray versus HD-DVD, Merrick's very clear as to which side Nintendo's on: "Neither. We're not getting involved with that argument at all." It's probably for the best.
I think Nintendo is on the right path to amaze everyone this generation...

[Dabombpizza]

I think Nintendo is on the right path to amaze everyone this generation...
OMG! Why don't you take your fan boy goggles off, huh? Nintendo is teh gh3yzz0r!

Sorry, Humpty is not here and I feel like something is missing without him.

Anyway, I tend to agree with you. But this article really didn't point out anything new. Although, Hideo Kojima working on a Revolution game may just be out of this world. Wasn't he the one who did the vampire game on the GBA?

[The Iron Weasel]

Yes, if Nintendo pulls it off, this will be really, really cool.

[Savok]

Right now, the Rev is it for me, MS and Sony have been acting like fucking morons way too much, yet Nintendo just keeps saying and doing the right things.

If they (finally) give PAL some real love...

But back to the virtual console. Merrick tells us that a number of third parties have already committed to providing their back catalogue for download, but he won't tell us their names.

"I think you can guess, though," he says. "The usual suspects."
Take me Nintendo, take me hard.

[Dabombpizza]

Yes, if Nintendo pulls it off, this will be really, really cool.

Out of curiousity Weasel, what is the "it" that Nintendo will be pulling off? Worldwide launch? Rom emulation? Or wicked controller? Maybe something I'm overlooking?

[Savok]

The whole damn package.

[UnderHero5]

I have to agree with people when they say Nintendo has been doing/saying the right things lately.
I'm definitely buying a revolution when it arrives.
I can't say the same about the 360 and PS3 however.

My pants are bubbling in anticipation of Mario Kart DS. Ooooh it's gunna be good.

[fitbabits]

I have to agree with people when they say Nintendo has been doing/saying the right things lately.
I'm definitely buying a revolution when it arrives.
I can't say the same about the 360 and PS3 however.

My pants are bubbling in anticipation of Mario Kart DS. Ooooh it's gunna be good.
If by good you mean a re-hash of all the other Mario Kart games then it will rock! :rolleyes:

[The Iron Weasel]

Out of curiousity Weasel, what is the "it" that Nintendo will be pulling off? Worldwide launch? Rom emulation? Or wicked controller? Maybe something I'm overlooking?

What Savok said.

[Dabombpizza]

If by good you mean a re-hash of all the other Mario Kart games then it will rock! :rolleyes:

36 Karts, online play, and motorcycles! And that's just the DS title.

[UnderHero5]

If by good you mean a re-hash of all the other Mario Kart games then it will rock! :rolleyes:

All I'm looking for is a game that's almost exactly like the N64 version and I'll be completely happy.
I hated what they did with the GCN version. And the DS version seems to be a combination of the SNES version, N64 version, and a very slight touch of the GCN version. So I think it's going to make me quite happy.

Hey, it's another sequal in the line on Mario Kart games. How exactly would it be completely different and still be a sequal?
Fans of the series don't want a completely different game, they want more of what they love. That's what MKDS is, plus it adds a lot of new stuff that was never in the old MK games (such as the mini challenges/boss battles/online play/secret unloackable characters/more tracks). The thing I'm looking forward to most is the remade classic tracks.

If you're not a fan of the Mario Kart games that's one thing, but if you're a fan I don't see how you could be dissapointed with this new instalment. As long as they don't screw up the gameplay mechanics, I don't see how this game can be bad.

That's just me though. If anyone wants to cry that it's not different enough they can feel free to.
I want additions in a sequal, not changes (unless things need to be changed, but I think Mario Kart got it perfected back on the N64).

[Savok]

If by good you mean a re-hash of all the other Mario Kart games then it will rock! :rolleyes:
Which is now online. I know it's in your job description to bash Nintendo, but at least only do it when you have a real point to make.

[fitbabits]

Which is now online. I know it's in your job description to bash Nintendo, but at least only do it when you have a real point to make.
Perhaps you can tell me what my job description is (and which job you're referring to), because I have no clue what you're on about.

You need to refine your sarcasm detector as well, by the way.

[fitbabits]

36 Karts, online play, and motorcycles! And that's just the DS title.
This little thing here - :rolleyes: - is a smiley for sarcasm.

[thecrazyd]

Perhaps you can tell me what my job description is (and which job you're referring to), because I have no clue what you're on about.

You need to refine your sarcasm detector as well, by the way.
As a red-name you are required to suck off no one but Gates and Allard. Possibly that prick Rein.

[fitbabits]

As a red-name you are required to suck off no one but Gates and Allard. Possibly that prick Rein.
Damn, I must have missed that when I was 'hired'! :)

For the record - I love games, be they on Xbox, PS2, Game Cube, PC, etc. I prefer my Xbox, but that's a personal preference, nothing more. And if you care to look back at my posts before being 'hired', you'll see that I was as vocal as anyone else about the dual SKU mess, the MTV mess and other such stuff.

[The Iron Weasel]

Its funny when people from the same company controdict one another (Cliffy B, and Mark Rein).

[fitbabits]

Its funny when people from the same company controdict one another (Cliffy B, and Mark Rein).
I like it, actually. It shows that they think independently and that can only mean good things when it comes to creating games. I'd rather people fought for what they believed and wanted included in games instead of all singing from the same hymn sheet.

But that's just me, I suppose.

[Kyle Jones]

I love how risky Nintendo can be. Who honestly thought the DS was going to be as fun of a platform as it is? Will the Revolution succeed or fail? Will the transition from awesome idea to real be possible? We shall see! I'll sit patiently, playing me some Animal Crossing.

Oh man, I just read Rein bashing the Revolution, and that was terrible! Excuse me Mr. Rein if some companies find that a good game isn't purely based off polygon counts and shooty guns.

[Savok]

Evil Avatar is notorious for being anti-Nintendo and generally pro-MS. Nintendo hate comes first and foremost though, Evil wouldn't have let you through the door otherwise.

[Savok]

Who honestly thought the DS was going to be as fun of a platform as it is?
First DS gameplay video should of told everyone that.

[Dabombpizza]

Evil Avatar is notorious for being anti-Nintendo and generally pro-MS. Nintendo hate comes first and foremost though, Evil wouldn't have let you through the door otherwise.

Actually, if you talk to Humpyourwaytothetop, who is currently absent right now, he'll tell you Evil is filled with nothing but Sony bashing and pro-nintendo fan boy bullshit. Personally, I've seen a whole lot of pro nintendo this past month.

And I don't think I've ever heard fitbabits nintendo bash either...

[fitbabits]

Evil Avatar is notorious for being anti-Nintendo and generally pro-MS. Nintendo hate comes first and foremost though, Evil wouldn't have let you through the door otherwise.
Notorious, you say? Funny how I've not seen evidence of that.

[Savok]

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/member.php?find=lastposter&t=6693

It's been there awhile, a long while.

[Dabombpizza]

Notorious, you say? Funny how I've not seen evidence of that.

Of course you wouldn't you Nintendo hating Evil Avatar corprate bastard. You're just spouting company propaganda! Who's your real master? ***?

[Dabombpizza]

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/member.php?find=lastposter&t=6693

It's been there awhile, a long while.

I'm not sure what that proves. You have a quote from "Anonymous Coward" on some other users profile...

[Player 1]

Right now, the Rev is it for me, MS and Sony have been acting like fucking morons way too much, yet Nintendo just keeps saying and doing the right things.

If they (finally) give PAL some real love...

But back to the virtual console. Merrick tells us that a number of third parties have already committed to providing their back catalogue for download, but he won't tell us their names.

"I think you can guess, though," he says. "The usual suspects."


Take me Nintendo, take me hard.

The Emperor's New Clothes.

Disregarding that we're getting frothy over some big cheese in Marketing and taking cheap pot shots at a guy who's understands the correlation of hardware, software and middleware deployment and licensing for entire generations of hardware (because, like, he said stuff that we didn't like the sound of so he must be clueless, right?) can you tell me just what facts there are to get excited over?

"Oh, you can guess.. The usual suspects"

WTF? Keyser Soze is Diddy Kong? I'm sorry, I don't get it. I don't get why some head of Marketing/bullshit can insinuate bullshit and so many people chug it down and say thank you.

"Oh, we don't want to get involved in that argument"

Holy shit Nintendo! Where the fuck is your spine? That's right, you don't need one because all of a sudden you can say "specs don't matter" and your army of bullshit swallowing fanboys drone "yes. specs don't matter" in some kind of expressionless mantra like you've just cast some fucking Jedi mind trick on them.

Savok, "Saying and doing the right things"? They're actually saying nothing and they're doing even less. They drop an insinuation and you and every other over-imaginative Nintendo fan makes up the rest. Then Nintendo sit back and watch fanboy-word-of-mouth and 'authoratitve' blogs do all the marketing for them whilst they masturbate over the idea of getting ready to re-release a 20 year old NES game. Again.

Nintendo use slight of hand, distracting tactics get kids to stop chanting "it's all about the games" because, hey, you won't show us any. Apparently the new Nintendo mantra is "It's all about the controller".

And, at the end of the day, you actually don't tell anyone anything.

Sorry, that ain't Nintendo Magic to this cynic, that's a company that's just not telling me something.

Next up: Vapourware - kicking ass, taking names and fooling the easily led.


(These comments reflect the mentality of me. I generally feel I don't represent the mentality of Evil Avatar as a whole. But you know what? EVERY Nintendo fan who overhears criticism immediately brands the person who offered it a Nintendo hater. Which just goes to show how little thought they put into their comments.)

[51|RandoM]

Notorious, you say? Funny how I've not seen evidence of that.

You never read the site, evidently.

[Bone]

Take me Nintendo, take me hard.
+1 for Firefly quotage.

[Savok]

Most people here were saying you'd probably only be able to get Nintendo games for downloadable stuff.

And man this happens every damn generation, because Nintendo isn't waving their dick around it must be tiny, right? Feh.

[Dabombpizza]

The Emperor's New Clothes.

Disregarding that we're getting frothy over some big cheese in Marketing and taking cheap pot shots at a guy who's understands the correlation of hardware, software and middleware deployment and licensing for entire generations of hardware (because, like, he said stuff that we didn't like the sound of so he must be clueless, right?) can you tell me just what facts there are to get excited over?

I don't think cheap shots where taken, you must be reading a different article. Jim Merrick told the truth. Rein has not touched the controller or even seen the dev kit, yet he called it gimmicky. Could that be because he's in bed with Sony and MS? Who knows, but it sounds like Epic is making the "cheap shots" here.


"Oh, you can guess.. The usual suspects"

WTF? Keyser Soze is Diddy Kong? I'm sorry, I don't get it. I don't get why some head of Marketing/bullshit can insinuate bullshit and so many people chug it down and say thank you.

I was thinking more along the lines of Kevin Spacey. I do agree that this article presents nothing new, but, that doesn't mean people can't get excited over the information that's already present.

"Oh, we don't want to get involved in that argument"

Holy shit Nintendo! Where the fuck is your spine? That's right, you don't need one because all of a sudden you can say "specs don't matter" and your army of bullshit swallowing fanboys drone "yes. specs don't matter" in some kind of expressionless mantra like you've just cast some fucking Jedi mind trick on them.

Possibly you're confusing the point here. You are mixing the specs with the new format war. Nintendo is simply saying here they don't care about Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, and why would they? All there media has been, historically, proprietary. So why would they want to jump in an argument that has no relevance to their business model? Oh...because they don't have a spine? Or maybe because it would make no goddamn sense.

And specs don't matter is a different design philosphy. Do specs matter on the DS and GBA vs PSP? No, not at all. In fact, the two systems with shittier specs are kicking ass in the market place.

You use slight of hand, distracting tactics get kids to stop chanting "it's all about the games" because, hey, you won't show us any. Apparently the new Nintendo mantra is "It's all about the controller".

Correction, it's about inovation.


And, at the end of the day, you actually don't tell anyone anything.

Sorry, that ain't Nintendo Magic to this cynic, that's a company that's just not telling me something.


Wow, you must really hate Sony then, having a launch date and no playable demos. Nintendo has historically been tight lipped and, most of the time, delivers the goods. I agree this article says very little, and nothing new, but it's not a bad thing getting excited about what might be. The innovation that a new controller opens up is limitless.

[Savok]

+1 for Firefly quotage.
Thank God I wasn't the only one who had Zoe saying that in my head :p

[Bone]

Holy shit Nintendo! Where the fuck is your spine?
By not getting involved in a stupid format war, that makes them spineless? I think not.

Then Nintendo sit back and watch fanboy-word-of-mouth and 'authoratitve' blogs do all the marketing for them whilst they masturbate over the idea of getting ready to re-release a 20 year old NES game. Again.
Right, and Sony and Microsoft don't reiterate the same games that make them boatloads of cash? Which versions of Halo and GTA are we expecting next? Sequels sell, it's not just Nintendo doing it.


Nintendo use slight of hand, distracting tactics get kids to stop chanting "it's all about the games" because, hey, you won't show us any. Apparently the new Nintendo mantra is "It's all about the controller".

And, at the end of the day, you actually don't tell anyone anything.

Funny, I thought they told us that they are basing new gameplay around a controller. Did you miss something? Nintendo has always been about gameplay.


(These comments reflect the mentality of me...)
Yes, they certainly do. You spew more venom against Nintendo than any of us supposed "fanboys" spew in return. I know it's become cliched to have to say this, but I am the proud owner of every current gen console and handheld... I see them all as having strengths and weaknesses, but people like you who act like Mario raped them in the ass just get on my nerves.

[score]

But he [Hideo Kojima] is doing a Revolution game? "To my knowledge, yes."

............*dribble*............

[UnderHero5]

The Emperor's New Clothes.

Disregarding that we're getting frothy over some big cheese in Marketing and taking cheap pot shots at a guy who's understands the correlation of hardware, software and middleware deployment and licensing for entire generations of hardware (because, like, he said stuff that we didn't like the sound of so he must be clueless, right?) can you tell me just what facts there are to get excited over?

"Oh, you can guess.. The usual suspects"

WTF? Keyser Soze is Diddy Kong? I'm sorry, I don't get it. I don't get why some head of Marketing/bullshit can insinuate bullshit and so many people chug it down and say thank you.

"Oh, we don't want to get involved in that argument"

Holy shit Nintendo! Where the fuck is your spine? That's right, you don't need one because all of a sudden you can say "specs don't matter" and your army of bullshit swallowing fanboys drone "yes. specs don't matter" in some kind of expressionless mantra like you've just cast some fucking Jedi mind trick on them.

You use slight of hand, distracting tactics get kids to stop chanting "it's all about the games" because, hey, you won't show us any. Apparently the new Nintendo mantra is "It's all about the controller".

And, at the end of the day, you actually don't tell anyone anything.

Sorry, that ain't Nintendo Magic to this cynic, that's a company that's just not telling me something.

Next up: Vapourware - kicking ass, taking names and fooling the easily led.

Talk like that makes my pants deflate.

I just like that Nintendo isn't getting involved in the BS pissing contest between MS and Sony.
I like the way they are staying out of business that isn't theirs in the first place. Is that such a bad thing?
They don't fucking care because they know they can't compete on a hardware front with MS and Sony, but you know what? It ISN'T about hardware specs, no matter what you say.
It's about the games, and Nintendo has began to prove that it's also about the way you play the games.

Sure, we haven't seen any of the Rev's actual games, but tell me this... have we seen any of the PS3's or have we seen tons of pre-rendered footage?

You know why we haven't seen gameplay of the Rev? Because it's a LONG way off still!!

I'd rather not see anything at all than see fake gameplay footage (Sony).

I am excited about the possibilities that the Revolution opens up as far as gameplay interaction.

Tell me this... if it has nothing to do with how you control a game...
If they came out with a virtual reality console where you played FPS's using a gun/headset and movement detection... would you say "oh, it's just like any other FPS, only you control it different" or would you be excited about it (if it wasn't horribly expensive).

I don't know about you, but I'm excited about the prospect of being able to control my games differently than just using a standard controller.

Have you heard of the recently released Guitar Hero?
You can play the same game using the controller, but it's a HELL of a lot more fun with the supplied Guitar it comes with. That's my point. It's not all about the game. It can largely be about the means of control as well.

Would DDR be as popular as it is if all you did was hit buttons instead of using a mat?

People have their reasons for being excited. I have mine. If you choose to let the industry stagnate then fine, keep buying the same games over and over. At least I'll be able to control mine differently, which adds new gameplay elements through hardware, rather than software.

And as for the doanloadable games on the Rev, I assume the "usual suspects" would mean the developers who have stuck with Nintendo throughout the years (IE: Capcom... umm... Capcom)... doesn't really matter anyway, as Nintendo's first part catalogue will be there, and that alone is quite a lot of gaming goodness. The fact that any devs at all will be releasing back catalogue games is exciting news. The more the merrier.
That's not even a big selling point for me, I already own the back catalogues of damn near every consol up to the N64 that I can play on my Xbox, so, heh.

Just because some people are excited and agree with the way Nintendo is doing things as of late doesn't mean we're Nintendrones.

Hell, I might buy a 360/PS3 eventually, but right now Nintendo is the only one offering something different, that I can't already get somewhere else. That's why I'm excited about the Revolution.
Fuck, half the 360 games that are coming out on launch I can already play/have played on my PC with beautiful Mouse/Keyboard controls. Quake 4? Beat it. CoD2? Playing it now. Oblivion? Will play it once it's out (on PC). Etc Etc.

A new Metroid FPS that uses the wand/thumbstick for simulated 3d movement?... Sure it's not confirmed, but that's completely possible with the Revolution, and things like THAT get me excited about the new generation of gaming, not 100,000 polygons in a characters face or normal mapped scrotums.

I personally have been gaming for almost 20 years now, and shit is really getting boring. Once you've played enough games... you just can't find anything different, gameplay wise. All they do it make the games prettier these days.
Once in a while we'll get out Katamari, our Guitar Hero, our Shadow of the Colosus... but those are few and far between. It's not necesarilly the fault of MS or Sony, but the fact that their hardware isn't any more capable of new gameplay mechanics than the PS1 is doesn't help. It's not often that a publisher will spend the money on a hardware attachment (Guitar Hero's guitar) to add to the gameplay, but with the Revolution it will be possible out of the box. See where the excitement comes from?

My god I am rambling on and on about this. It's a good thing I'm bored as shit.
I love this site, and I love all of you!! : )

[Bone]

Thank God I wasn't the only one who had Zoe saying that in my head :p
I know it's a difficult mission, but you and I have to get it on.

[Dabombpizza]

You know why we haven't seen gameplay of the Rev? Because it's a LONG way off still!!

We did see tech demos, or proofs of concept. The one where they hit the ball around with a paddle, and to put a spin on the ball you twisted your hand when you hit it. I'm sorry, but that makes me giddy with anticipation. Do you even understand the avenues this one tech demo open? And, of course, swordfighting.

EDIT: Here http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3143782
It's the Air Hockey demo.
this one was supposed to show how you could put "english" on the puck by twisting the controller

[UnderHero5]

We did see tech demos, or proofs of concept. The one where they hit the ball around with a paddle, and to put a spin on the ball you twisted your hand when you hit it. I'm sorry, but that makes me giddy with anticipation. Do you even understand the avenues this one tech demo open? And, of course, swordfighting.

Kiss me.
I didn't actually watch the tech demos, though I did hear of them.
Are they on Gamespot/IGN or do I have to hunt down a whole press conference?

I'd like to see that. That sounds absolutely awesome.

Yeah, can you imagine an online sword fighting game using that?
Oh goodness me, I'm all flustered.

Edit: Oooh, "Jedi Knight 4, now with realistic Light Saber action! Only on Nintendo Revolution", hehe.

[Player 1]

Dabombpizza,

The way I see this situation is that Nintendo claim they're not competing with Sony or MS. Now, that may be fine for them, but the entire world regards them to be competing with Sony or MS.

So, what we get is a fight in a school yard. The two current gang leaders are rolling up their sleeves and this little voice from a safe distance is saying "Well, yeah, I could beat them if I wanted to but, like, I don't want to. (But I could if I had to)". I don't know about you but I'd be telling that little kid to put up or shut up.

And then pipsqueak says "Nah, really. Cos, like, I know these special moves. And they can KILL A MAN if done right. No. I can't show you. It's too secret".

I, for one, don't happen to take pipsqueak seriously. He used to be a reasonable fighter against that kid with the blue spiky hair but that kid flunked out a few years back. Pipsqueak talks the talk but refuses to walk the walk.

Maybe my school days were rougher than yours. I don't know. But where I come from, Pipsqueak wouldn't be getting the respect of every student in the school. He'd be limping home with his shirt ripped and his bag and books hanging from some lamp post.

--

You say "Wow, you must really hate Sony then, having a launch date and no playable demos."

I say "At least you've had the decency to show me some".

Why do you regard Nintendo's vapourware as more significant than Sony's factual statements? Because you want to.

Innovation? I've seen more innovation with a conventional controller in Shadow of the Colossus, Katamari and God of War than ANYTHING games from Nintendo recently. You know what?

All these people claiming everything is nicked off Nintendo? Who invented an entire Bemani genre with Parappa the Rappa? Then who ripped it off, sold it with commercial music, attached an IP to it and, fuck me, a novelty controller too?

S'funny how quickly "Nintendo r teh only innovatorzzz!`" conversations go quiet when you mention that one.


Hardware innovation? Stlyus? Dual Screen? I disregard them as, just like the analogue stick, they'd been around for years before Nintendo claimed to have invented them.

Rumble? I'll give them that. But that's not changed the world of gaming. It's a novel gimmick that's cheap to implement but totally forgettable (REZ excluded).

For this gamer, Nintendo has been a load of hot air and disappointment since the farce that was the N64.

With all due respect to you and your opinions, you're entitled to them. I just say it like I see it.

But seriously, don't get excited over vapourware delivered by a marketing man. You're just dancing to his tune.

[Dabombpizza]

Kiss me.
I didn't actually watch the tech demos, though I did hear of them.
Are they on Gamespot/IGN or do I have to hunt down a whole press conference?

I can't find any video of the demos. The article I linked isn't the best at describing it, I think IGN does a better job, but I really can't remember which one I read initially (I read alot).

[Bone]

Player 1 needs brain... badly!

EDIT: Sorry, maybe I should elaborate. Player 1, you're a troll, and like the other trolls here, you don't offer anything but page-long tirades about how your opinion is right. Opinions are great, but when people are excited about something and all you have to offer is excrement projectiles, you're a troll.

And that anecdote about the kids on the playground was just stupid. You lost me sometime around the blue spiky hair kid.

[Dabombpizza]

Dabombpizza,

The way I see this situation is that Nintendo claim they're not competing with Sony or MS. Now, that may be fine for them, but the entire world regards them to be competing with Sony or MS.

So, what we get is a fight in a school yard. The two current gang leaders are rolling up their sleeves and this little voice from a safe distance is saying "Well, yeah, I could beat them if I wanted to but, like, I don't want to. (But I could if I had to)". I don't know about you but I'd be telling that little kid to put up or shut up.

And then pipsqueak says "Nah, really. Cos, like, I know these special moves. And they can KILL A MAN if done right. No. I can't show you. It's too secret".


I really don't see this as being true. I think you have two bullies in the schoolyard about to fight, and then a third voice saying "I'm going to go play some games." Nintendo has never said their hardware is better than MS or Sony, only that it's "sufficient". Personally, I'm sure it'll be a notch down.

But even if that is what they're saying, that their marketing strategy, and you may have a valid point to be pissed by that. But each marketing strategy for each system is a little shady in itself.

Sony: "It's only going to be a few more months, don't buy the Xbox 360 yet! Oh, games? Hey, look at this movie! Oh, and theoretically PS3 might possibly be able push out twice the power as the 360, but we wouldn't know because we have nothing to show you. Proprietary muthafuckas!"

MS: "OMG!!! Xbox sooo cool! C'mon MTV generation, buy buy buy! Backwards compatability? Fuck it! Buy it! C'mon, buy it! Oh, you can't find a console? That's because we are artificially stimulating the market through a lack of goods, a page out of Sony's own handbook. Convergence muthafuckas!"

So, I don't think Nintendo's approach is that bad, but I can see reason in questioning it. And yes, touch screens did exist before the DS, but now they're fun which they weren't before. Nintendo isn't inventing any tech in the revolution. In fact, they've said they are taking existing tech and doing something new with it, which is very true.

And you are a fool if you think the tech in the Rev controller isn't going to be in the PS3 and 360 within the next 3 years.

I've been let down by the rehash that comes out on the Xbox and the PS2 that I've reverted to my PC and my DS. I can't stand any more console "Halo Killers" or another Devil May Cry clone, it's driving me crazy. And before you start talking about Mario coming out on every nintendo system, it's always a different game (possibly with exception of Sunshine). So, my hopes are up for the Rev.

[Player 1]

Edit: Oooh, "Jedi Knight 4, now with realistic Light Saber action! Only on Nintendo Revolution", hehe.

I mentioned that on my site about 10 hours after the reveal at TGS.

The other idea about "how amazing FPS could be with Rev" - for me that TOTALLY misses the point. If this amazing wunderkontraption is opening up whole new areas of gaming then what is the point of playing FPS games? Haven't we been playing them for 15 years? Is that the best your imaginations can come up with?

I laugh everytime Rev+FPS=WOW! style stuff comes up by gamers. It's so dense.

It's like you have a black and white TV. Then Nintendo invent colour TV. WOW! And all you can think about is how amazing all your old black and white programs will look if you play them on a colour TV. They're still black and white and you still know exactly how they play out because you've already watched them.

Oh, and I just love the way you mention the usual suspect being "(Capcom and .. er.. Capcom)" and then say "but that doesn't matter". Actually 3rd parties matter a hell of a lot (Sony and MS know this - hence the sort of market penetration they have). It only "doesn't matter" because you'd rather skip the embarassment and quickly move on.


Look, I don't hate Nintendo, but this 32 year old gamer and game producer and freelance writer doesn't see Nintendo in the way you do - I don't see Sony or MS like you do either. I keep them ALL in check and remain cynical of them all but, obviously, enjoy the output of the ones that give me the most of what I like.

(And for the record 3 *different* GTAs or 2 *different* Halo's are quite different from releasing 15 NES games on a GBA at $20 each without a pixel improved in any of them. I call that a rip off, not a cause for celebration)

For what it's worth, I have all the current gen console systems and own more Nintendo hardware than any other system.

[Player 1]

Player 1 needs brain... badly!

EDIT: Sorry, maybe I should elaborate. Player 1, you're a troll, and like the other trolls here, you don't offer anything but page-long tirades about how your opinion is right. Opinions are great, but when people are excited about something and all you have to offer is excrement projectiles, you're a troll.

And that anecdote about the kids on the playground was just stupid.

I'm not a troll - I can give full elaboration on my points of view with references and history. Just because I dare to NOT ejaculate over Nintendo vapourware and remain cynical of a company after my money doesn't make me a troll. And just because I express my point of view with a certain way by excersizing the same right to speak on this site as everyone else doesn't make me a troll either. I'm sorry you don't like what I have to say, but I'm expressing *my* opinion - I'm not forcing you to agree.

You lost me sometime around the blue spiky hair kid.

You know, that shouldn't be too oblique a reference for you to get. Anyone want to help him out?

[Dabombpizza]

It's like you have a black and white TV. Then Nintendo invent colour TV. WOW! And all you can think about is how amazing all your old black and white programs will look if you play them on a colour TV. They're still black and white and you still know exactly how they play out because you've already watched them.

Kind of like playing an FPS with a higher polygon count? Or MGS2 without a radar and some camoflauge? I mean, it's still MGS...

Oh, and I just love the way you mention the usual suspect being "(Capcom and .. er.. Capcom)" and then say "but that doesn't matter". Actually 3rd parties matter a hell of a lot (Sony and MS know this - hence the sort of market penetration they have). It only "doesn't matter" because you'd rather skip the embarassment and quickly move on.

It doesn't matter because of the way Nintendo manages its finances. Nintendo has never reported a fiscal loss. Both Sony and MS have. Another reason why they aren't directly competing. Also, we may see a switch in 3rd party support this generation because of Nintendos amazingly cheaper-to-develop-for hardware, which is going to play a huge role in the next gen. I don't care how awesome the PS3 hardware is. If it costs a few million cheaper to develop for the Rev, then there will be more people taking risks on the Revolution. But, of course, this remains to be seen.

(And for the record 3 *different* GTAs or 2 *different* Halo's are quite different from releasing 15 NES games on a GBA at $20 each without a pixel improved in any of them. I call that a rip off, not a cause for celebration)

I saw them for $10. But I agree, one NES game for $10 is crap, I should at least get 2, if not 5.

[Bone]

You know, that shouldn't be too oblique a reference for you to get. Anyone want to help him out?
Oh, I "get" it. It was just a dumb metaphor.

I'm not forcing you to agree.
Except you told US not to get excited.

[Player 1]

If it costs a few million cheaper to develop for the Rev, then there will be more people taking risks on the Revolution. But, of course, this remains to be seen.

Well, that DOES remain to be seen - as the costs of developing a game aren't just about the devkit.

Nintendo still need to vastly lower their licence fees, provide decent developer support (outside of emailing Intelligent Systems and hoping for a reply) and not shit on third parties endeavouring to support Nintendo by releasing Zelda in the same week.

Additionally, Nintendo *must* make the market worth developing for. No third party (despite their safe, public words of praise) is going to sink millions into a Revolution game to see it languish in the back corner of a game shop.

In other words, it's not so important to have cheap(er) development costs if you're still going to get shitty sales and shitty margins.

Nintendo ruled retail with the SNES - and everyone wanted to be a 3rd party. THAT is what appeals to 3rd parties because, unlike Nintendo, they need sales. They can't depend on licence fees and spend 4 years making a game. Nintendo can, and then they release it and kill their third parties efforts by using up all the shelf space.

Trust me, Nintendo have a lot of bridges to build, more than you might be aware of. Cheap kit isn't the be all and end of game development.

[UnderHero5]

I mentioned that on my site about 10 hours after the reveal at TGS.

The other idea about "how amazing FPS could be with Rev" - for me that TOTALLY misses the point. If this amazing wunderkontraption is opening up whole new areas of gaming then what is the point of playing FPS games? Haven't we been playing them for 15 years? Is that the best your imaginations can come up with?

I laugh everytime Rev+FPS=WOW! style stuff comes up by gamers. It's so dense.

It's like you have a black and white TV. Then Nintendo invent colour TV. WOW! And all you can think about is how amazing all your old black and white programs will look if you play them on a colour TV. They're still black and white and you still know exactly how they play out because you've already watched them.

Umm... no. First of all I didn't say to re-release the same FPS's we've all played. I was refering to NEW FPS's *hence, when I said a NEW Metroid FPS*... Don't warp what I said.

And apparently you ignored what I said about controling a game. You may have a different opinion on it, but don't treat your opinion like fact, because it's not.
Many people (including myself) consider a different control method as being different game play. After all you are PLAYING the GAME differently. Understand?
Refer to my DDR example. If you are honestly telling me that playing DDR on a pad and playing it on a controller don't offer different gameplay then you have a warped view on things.
Also refer to Guitar Hero (as, again, previously mentioned).

I would say your analogy would pertain more to the 360 and PS3... The black and white tv would be your normal Xbox and PS2. The Color tv would be the 360 and PS3.
There's no different other than VISUALS with the tv's. There's no different other than VISUALS with the Xbox/360 and PS2/PS3.

The Revolution is adding new gameplay options. How do you not understand that?
a TV analogy is a bad one in the first place, as games are about GAMEPLAY, not visuals.
But if you want to do the tv analogy it would go like this.

With the jump from B/W TV to Color TV we got better visuals (color) but the same shows (play out the same).
Just as with the jump from Xbox to 360 or PS2 to PS3 we will get better visuals (graphics) but the same games (same gameplay).

Now think of the Revolution as giving you more GAMEPLAY options, and not just better visuals. So the revolution wouldn't just be a color TV, it would be a color TV with extra options... say... TiVo or a VCR. It would give you the ability to watch your shows in a different way (recording them and playing them back later).
Just as in the gaming world it would give you the ability to play your games in a different way (with the Wonder Wand of Wiggly Delights, ie: Rev controller).

Sure, think of if they ported Halo to the Rev (obviously hypothetical)... it would LOOK the same when watching someone play it. But it would PLAY DIFFERENT due to the means of control. Understand?


Oh, and I just love the way you mention the usual suspect being "(Capcom and .. er.. Capcom)" and then say "but that doesn't matter". Actually 3rd parties matter a hell of a lot (Sony and MS know this - hence the sort of market penetration they have). It only "doesn't matter" because you'd rather skip the embarassment and quickly move on.

Well, the reason I said "Capcom and ... er.. Capcom" was to illustrate that not many developers have backed Nintendo over the years. I don't know how me pointing that out with sarcasm is "skipping" the "embarassment"...
First of all, me pointing it out isn't skipping anything, duh.
And as far as "embarassment" goes... who exactly is supposed to be embarassed here? Me? Nintendo? Who are you talking about?
I'm not embarassed, I'm the consumer, it's not MY job to worry about that sort of thing. Besides, I was refering to the BACK CATALOGUE of games, not current 3rd parties that will be making NEW games.
I have already seen a pretty nice list of 3rd party devs that will be making Revolution games. I'm saying I don't care about the BACK CATALOGUE of games. Do NOT warp my words and take them out of context.

And the reason I said it doesn't matter is because, unlike you, I don't press my opinion as fact. I was saying it does not matter TO ME. As again, I go on to point out something you ommited, that being the fact that I already "own" the back catalogue of most consoles before the N64. Did you even read what I posted?

Look, I don't hate Nintendo, but this 32 year old gamer and game producer doesn't see Nintendo in the way you do - I don't see Sony or MS like you do either. I keep them ALL in check and remain cynical of them all but, obviously, enjoy the output of the ones that give me the most of what I like.

(And for the record 3 *different* GTAs or 2 *different* Halo's are quite different from releasing 15 NES games on a GBA at $20 each without a pixel improved in any of them. I call that a rip off, not a cause for celebration)

For what it's worth, I have all the current gen console systems and own more Nintendo hardware than any other system.

I really don't care if you hate Nintendo or not. You have every right to hate a company, whether you have a reason or not. You also have a right to spew useless troll talk in this forum, but does that mean you have to?

And did Nintendo force you to buy those GBA re-releases? Did they present them as new games when advertised or did people know that they were getting the old, classic version of the game?

There's a difference between re-releasing a classic game and making a sqeual to a game that's exactly the same. I personally don't have a problem with sequals (that was someone elses post), I also don't have a problem with re-releasing old games.
I DO have a problem with copy-cat games thought.
You know... like when they made Halo... then we got a crapload of FPS's that tried to emulate Halo. Is there anything wrong with Halo and Halo 2? No. Is there something wrong with the fact that there's 10 other games that try to be just like Halo because it was successful? In my opinion, yes, unless those games can do it better (which they never do).

Why was God of War good? It was just like DMC, Rygar, and any other third person action game along those lines. It was good because it did those things BETTER. That doesn't necesarilly make it innovative.
But then, you're the one that said all Nintendo fans scream innovation.
I really don't care if it's "innovative" or not. I don't know why you brought that up. It's about having fun.
I think I've had about as much fun as I'm going to have playing a FPS with a controller. I think it could be a lot more fun playing it with a new control interface, whether that be virtual reality or the Nintendo Revolution controller.

It has nothing to do with innovation for me. I'm just looking for something more fun, as long as it works well, which remains to be seen.

What's wrong with being positive about something different?

I bashed the DS just as much as the next guy when Nintendo anounced it.
I even bought a PSP before a DS. Then I actually tried the DS for a while and found that it's game line-up was great (has gotten great, anyway) and that the touch screen wasn't just a gimmick but could actually open up new gameplay options.

I'm not going to make the same mistake twice and blindly bash Nintendo because they are doing something different. This time I am going to look forward to trying their new idea. Whether or not I like it remains to be seen, but there's no harm in thinking of the possibilities and getting excited about it.

It's not overhyped. Nintendo hasn't been saying it's the best thing ever. They have been pretty quiet about it and most of the hype that has built up is from the community. Your little analogy about the schoolyard bullies is pretty damn far off.
Nintendo NEVER SAID they were trying to compete with MS and Sony. They never said they could "beat" them. So what exactly are you talking about?

It actually goes more like this...

Two boys out on the school yard, MS and Sony, standing next to eachother with their cocks in their hands.
MS: "Mines bigger!"
Sony: "No, look, mines bigger"

*Nintendo walks by*

Nintendo: "You fags keep jerking yourselves off, I'm going to go play some videogames"



Edited for Speeling

[Player 1]

Listen, I don't troll. I'm presenting my point of view and backing it up with my reasons along with some metaphors (which appear to have been taken far too literally).

Now, if I was doing some drive by with "Nintendo r ghey" and nothing else then I'd put my hands up and say I'm trolling.

There's a difference between re-releasing a classic game and making a sqeual to a game that's exactly the same.

I agree - although I think our perception of those differences are at polar opposites.

With that in mind I believe we should respectfully agree to disagree and hope that whatever the next generation holds in store for us as gamers that we all get more of what keeps us playing games in the first place. :)

[Dabombpizza]

With that in mind I believe we should respectfully agree to disagree and hope that whatever the next generation holds in store for us as gamers that we all get more of what keeps us playing games in the first place. :)

Titties!!!

[UnderHero5]

With that in mind I believe we should respectfully agree to disagree and hope that whatever the next generation holds in store for us as gamers that we all get more of what keeps us playing games in the first place. :)

*shakes hand*
Sounds good to me, friend : )

I like you.

sexually

[Bone]

Listen, I don't troll. I'm presenting my point of view and backing it up with my reasons along with some metaphors (which appear to have been taken far too literally).

I just think the metaphors were a stretch, it wasn't that they were taken too literally.


With that in mind I believe we should respectfully agree to disagree and hope that whatever the next generation holds in store for us as gamers that we all get more of what keeps us playing games in the first place. :)
Fair enough, I like that. I think if you go back though, the reason I called you a troll was the disrespect you showed for anyone who dared to be excited about this announcement.

I'm all about debating differing opinions.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Yikes, this post took forever to piece together. I'm entering this fight a bit late, but goddamnit I'm cranky and I'm going to get my say. :p


And as for the doanloadable games on the Rev, I assume the "usual suspects" would mean the developers who have stuck with Nintendo throughout the years (IE: Capcom... umm... Capcom)... doesn't really matter anyway, as Nintendo's first part catalogue will be there

I'm guessing that the "usual" suspects refers to big Japanese third parties such as Namco, Konami, Capcom, etc. that have historically supported Nintendo systems. Square probably won't be on board since they are still making money off of these older games by releasing them on the GBA and DS.

I'm really hoping that Mario RPG makes it in there. I really want the game, but I'm not paying $80 for it!!


A new Metroid FPS that uses the wand/thumbstick for simulated 3d movement?... Sure it's not confirmed

Actually that has been confirmed. Retro is making Metroid Prime 3 for the Revolution. Hopefully after that they can try their hand at another game. I'd love to see what else the Texas boys are capable of.

Maybe my school days were rougher than yours. I don't know. But where I come from, Pipsqueak wouldn't be getting the respect of every student in the school. He'd be limping home with his shirt ripped and his bag and books hanging from some lamp post.

This is a totally different topic, but in my world people who use their fists to solve problems don't earn any respect.

Same applies for warmongers and liars. *looks at #43*

I keep them ALL in check and remain cynical of them all

Except that's complete bullshit, because there are only two cases in which you pop into a thread and try to rain on the majority's parade:

1)When people start bashing EA for being the abusive super-power that it is.
2)When people start celebrating their love of Nintendo.

You NEVER go into 360 threads and post long rants against the system. EVER. Zeal and Perigon, yes. Player 1, no.

Don't spout bullshit like that in such a small community.

over Nintendo vapourware

Another silly thing to say. Vapourware = hardware or software with a big splashy announcement, hyped up and never released. That doesn't fit the Revolution at all. Now if we haven't seen the system 3 years from now, then yes it is vapourware.

[Bone]

I laugh everytime Rev+FPS=WOW! style stuff comes up by gamers. It's so dense.

It's like you have a black and white TV. Then Nintendo invent colour TV. WOW! And all you can think about is how amazing all your old black and white programs will look if you play them on a colour TV. They're still black and white and you still know exactly how they play out because you've already watched them.
See, I think this is an example of a metaphor stretched very thin.

What is exciting about using the Revolution controller for an FPS is that it may finally offset the largest complaint from traditional PC gamers- that an FPS on a console is hard to control. It may even allow a control scheme for FPS even more intuitive than a mouse and keyboard- but we won't know until it comes out (although the demo of Metroid seemed to go over well).

Hence, my excitement over possibilities. Really, the FPS+Rev control scheme is but a small piece of the pie. I'm more excited about swordfighting and other types of gameplay than pure simulating a mouse. It's just offered up to those who troll with "You'll never have an FPS on the Revolution!".

Nintendo still has the chance to not deliver, but for now, there is a lot to get excited about. I'm glad I was open to the DS possibilities, because so far, those possibilities have been proven to exist much like I and others imagined them.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Shit, all that work and I still left out half my post. The rest:

Its funny when people from the same company controdict one another (Cliffy B, and Mark Rein).

Especially when CliffyB is uber hot and in charge of Epic, and Mark Rein is just a tool.


whilst they masturbate over the idea of getting ready to re-release a 20 year old NES game. Again.

Yes, because obviously those few releases on the GBA = rereleasing all of their NES games dozens of times. :rolleyes:

Do you bash Midway everytime they put Joust (or whatever else) on yet another anthology? Namco? SEGA? etc? Those companies constantly cash in on their old titles, yet Nintendo isn't allowed to do it once?

There will be plenty of new games on the Revolution. Getting to download 20 years of gaming history (from Nintendo and likely several third parties) is just a huge bonus.

Some EA bashing is probably going on somewhere - why don't you go to where you are needed?


Right, and Sony and Microsoft don't reiterate the same games that make them boatloads of cash? Which versions of Halo and GTA are we expecting next? Sequels sell, it's not just Nintendo doing it.


Amen! Why can't the anti-Nintendo trolls get this? Every company releases sequels. The companies that really deserve the vitriol are EA, Activision, Ubi Soft, and Sony, where the sequel factories are now on a yearly cycle.

"Hmmm....what can we add to Prince of Persia this year? Oh I know!! The prince has an evil alter-ego!! INGENIOUS!!! +1 for teh WIN!!"

[dr_wily]

ug too much defensive blowhards in this post.
keep it short if you want anyone to read your whining.

[fitbabits]

Amen! Why can't the anti-Nintendo trolls get this? Every company releases sequels. The companies that really deserve the vitriol are EA, Activision, Ubi Soft, and Sony, where the sequel factories are now on a yearly cycle.

"Hmmm....what can we add to Prince of Persia this year? Oh I know!! The prince has an evil alter-ego!! INGENIOUS!!! +1 for teh WIN!!"

Here's the difference - rehash/re-release of the same game on a different Nintendo format versus sequel to an already-established franchise..

[UnderHero5]

ug too much defensive blowhards in this post.
keep it short if you want anyone to read your whining.

Why are you on a message board if you don't want to read?
Wouldn't want someone to elaborate on their opinion now, would we.

NINTENDOS R GOD AND MARCOSOFT N SONTY ARE STUPED!!!

Is that more your speed?

[Dabombpizza]

Amen! Why can't the anti-Nintendo trolls get this? Every company releases sequels. The companies that really deserve the vitriol are EA, Activision, Ubi Soft, and Sony, where the sequel factories are now on a yearly cycle.

It's actually a little different in nintendo's case. With the exception of a few titles (Mariokart, Mario Party) Nintendo uses Mario as a brand name. Super Mario Land is quite different than Mario 64. It's not a sequel, it's a new game. That would be like using Crash Bandicoot in a DMC game (although not as radical). So mario is NOT being rereleased on every system, it's coming in new iterations (of course with exceptions such as Mario Sunshine).

[Dabombpizza]

ug too much defensive blowhards in this post.
keep it short if you want anyone to read your whining.

Hmm..I did notice we were having an intelligent and rational dialogue on the significance of Nintendo's market strategy. I forgot to slobber on the keyboard and put a cock in my mouth so that everytime I spoke I looked like a dick. Thank you for pointing that out when your opinion is truly unwanted, I appreciate that.

[Bone]

Here's the difference - rehash versus sequel.
Wait, though. That part of the thread referred to straight ports, when Player1 thought it was a ripoff to port NES games to GBA. But many people thought it was a great idea- they didn't WANT any changes, just the ability to play Super Mario Bros on their GBA, period. When you look at the capabilities of the GBA, this is a smart move, because it's not a next-gen console. It's maybe a portable SNES at best.

The sequel stuff referred to things like Metroid Prime and other revisiting of familiar properties- as far as that goes, tell me which current-gen Nintendo game has been a rehash? Zelda, Metroid, and the rest have all been brand new content. Even the panned Mario Sunshine was new, if not innovative. I personally can't think of a single Gamecube game which is a rehash.

[Player 1]

ug too much defensive blowhards in this post.
keep it short if you want anyone to read your whining.

Thanks to dr_wily it should now be clear what the difference is between my posts and trolling. Many thanks dr_wily :)

For those that say "why don't you get stuck into the 360 topics" or "why aren't you bashing Midway for their rehashes" - the simple answer is that there's more than enough of that going on anyway. My personal policy is that if I have little to offer a conversation other than "I agree" then I just keep schtum.

Of course, even that gets me in trouble. Even when I wasn't commenting in an EA topic people were putting words in my mouth. Which, apart from being arrogant is pretty damn rude. But, of course, it only matters when someone else does it to you.

To dr_wily who said "If you want people to read it keep it short". I disagree. A forum is for discussion. I think a statement like "Well, game X was rubbish anyway" is pointless. If you're unwilling or unable to back up what you say then what are you contributing? Nothing more than the sound of your own voice or, at worst, the equivalent of "Hey everyone look at me, I'm indifferent!!!" If people get turned off by a large body of text then that's not my concern. I do my best to explain my viewpoints rather than assume I should just have my views accepted blankly. I certainly hope, however, that they have the decency to read all the text before they respond to it directly.

To whoever said "using your fists solves nothing" - I agree. However, this does tend to highlight precisely what I mean when I say a metaphor can be taken too literally.

But whilst we're on the topic of metaphors (and at the risk of having this one also misunderstood) , perhaps you can ask yourself whether the introduction of a remote control totally changed the content of your TV viewing or whether it was just a novel and convenient way of watching the same stuff with a greater feeling of power and control.

My personal feelings about games culture and popular conception is that a hell of a lot of it is plain wrong and shouted about by people that don't truly understand their topic or read information correctly. There's a shocking amount of assumption and assumed knowledge floating around gaming communities and, from what I have personally experienced of the industry, a lot of it is plain wrong. It's pretty frustrating to read and is the overriding reason why you generally don't get gamers and developers mixing it up on gaming forums - they'd tear each other apart.

This happened recently when, on the Gaming Age forums, someone (I forget who) who had been to TGS and used the Revolution controller and generously started a topic to answer gamers questions on it. It didn't take long for the initial poster to drop a comment which turned the tide of gamers against him. I'm sure he won't make the same mistake twice. I can't say the same for gamers as a whole (and before you get snooty please remember that if the behviour wasn't there then the criticism wouldn't be there either).

I'm too stupid to learn my lesson and tend to deliberately take a devils advocate stance. I'll instantly absorb the popular opinion perspective and then have a look at the other angles and present them. (Another reason for my Sony/EA/Nintendo comments - Xbox gets a fairly unbiased overall reception). My personal experience has taught me many times that popular gamer opinion and the facts of the matter very rarely overlap. I'd love this to be the other way around but that's simply not up to me.

Now, the point of this rather long post was not to troll, not to piss anyone off, but to explain my actions to people that, based on what they've said, think I'm nothing more than a troller or a hater.

If you read all of this, thank you.

Have a nice day.

[Player 1]

I personally can't think of a single Gamecube game which is a rehash.

I took me roughly 3.76 seconds to come up with Resident Evil and Metal Gear Solid - neither of which have any significant changes to their (Sony!*) originals other than graphical tweaking and some Nintendo branding.

*Please don't respond by saying something like "It can't have been a rehash if it wasn't from the same people". If anything, doing a rehash of another system's games from the previous generation counts a triples offence per title.

Equating to: facts X gamer fuzzly logic = 6 rehashes on Gamecube.


It's ok - you don't have to thank me. :)

[Dabombpizza]

I took me roughly 3.76 seconds to come up with Resident Evil and Metal Gear Solid - neither of which have any significant changes to their (Sony!*) originals other than graphical tweaking and some Nintendo branding.

Sorry, those don't count. One is a port, the other is a rehash by a THIRD PARTY. So blame Capcom if you want to. In addition, RE was a complete remake from the ground up. Come up with better examples. And if MGS counts as a rehash, then that would mean that GTA: San Andreas for Xbox is a rehash...which clearly it's not, it's a port.

EDIT: Significant changes to Sony originals? Resident Evil? Are you serious?

[Bone]

Um, Resident Evil had lots of new content, not to mention a total graphics overhaul. And again, not something Nintendo shoveled out, but Capcom. Although I should have been clear in asking for a Gamecube game BY NINTENDO that was a rehash, I assumed you had some understanding of the context since you were the one who started that part of the thread! So, to be more specific, give me a title by Nintendo that's a rehash?

Remind me again why you're not a troll? Or am I wrong, and you're just a dick?

[Nessus]

The only thing I object to is your calling the Rev "vaporware" when you apparently don't consider the PS3 to be vaporware also.

I readily admit the Rev is no more substancial than the PS3. But I don't see how that fact means the Rev is any *less* substancial either.

Both consoles aren't coming out until next year. Neither console has playable demos.

Also, in my experience vaporware more accurately applies to something like the Phantom, which will never see the light of day. Not a Nintendo console that has been demonstrated with near-final hardware (the controller at least) that most assuredly will come out.

[Player 1]

Remind me again why you're not a troll? Or am I wrong, and you're just a dick?

I think dr_wily already did that for me. This is becoming a really tiresome game of me explaining myself in full detail and you simply not listening. Perhaps I can ask you to kindly scroll up and read my earlier post before you ask flippant questions that I've already answered. That'd be great. Thanks.


Sorry, you said "I can't think of a Gamecube game that isn't a rehash", I provided two (or 6).

Now, if you'd said

"I can't think of a Gamecube game that isn't a rehash and I'll refute any proof by adding secret stipulations and criteria should I be proved wrong so that I can keep changing the goal posts in an effort to always be right"

then you'd have a point.

You said GAMECUBE. You didn't say Nintendo, 3rd party, released on a full moon or any other such bullshit. This works both ways and can therefore either support or disprove the GTA: San Andreas response cos like, it wasn't first party, man. Ok?

A reasoned debate is where you have the decency to apply the same rules of debate to both sides of the argument.

The secret to getting the answer you want is knowing how to ask the question. If you can't be bothered to phrase your statements clearly then expect them to be responded to in such a manner.

This is ANOTHER reason why I go to great effort to explain myself and not assume that everyone else is a mindreader.

But hey, I'm just some inconsiderate troll.

[thecrazyd]

But whilst we're on the topic of metaphors (and at the risk of having this one also misunderstood) , perhaps you can ask yourself whether the introduction of a remote control totally changed the content of your TV viewing or whether it was just a novel and convenient way of watching the same stuff with a greater feeling of power and control.
So it is bad to have "a greater feeling of power and control"? After I used a remote, I never wanted to go back to getting up to change the channel.

[Player 1]

Are you interacting with your TV in a new revolutionary way or are you just pushing the same buttons at the end of the day?

Are you getting revolutionary content that could never be provided without a remote control?

Has your using a remote radically changed the way people make, write, direct and broadcast TV programs?

Has your remote control suddenly made content providers switch off making TV that can be watched without a remote or will they just give you the same stuff with, perhaps, a novelty tweak that doesn't really make things all that different?



Ooh. And before you reply, don't confuse what your remote does with the services that your cable/satellite provider give. That's a whole other deal (and probably more comparable to online services)

But please, feel free to continue to miss the point.

[Dabombpizza]

You said GAMECUBE. You didn't say Nintendo, 3rd party, released on a full moon or any other such bullshit. This works both ways and can therefore either support or disprove the GTA: San Andreas response cos [i]like, it wasn't first party, man. Ok?

I think we have to define rehash. A port, which is a game coming from one system to another with many or no improvements on the games, in not necissarily a rehash. It is a rehash if it is an old game, such as Super Mario 3 or Joust.

By rehash, I believe we mean a new game that is merely an old game with no new improvements, or very little at all. For these I would point to the many Devil May Cry clones (Rygar, Castlevania, Shinobi, etc...). Or I could point towards the next "Halo Killer" (Brute Force, Pariah, <insert shitty xbox shooter here>) Then after that, we can point towards Final Fantasy clones, which I'm not going to list because I don't even touch these. We could also call these generic J-Rpgs. Then there's also the Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance clones (Everquest et al).

Of course, most of those that I've listed are 3rd party, but I believe they are valid because the gameplay is merely cloning other games that invented it. And while that is a perfecty good game design strategy, it becomes tiresome when every game is a clone, and these clones introduce no new features to the genre. I suppose that's the price you pay for having 3rd party support. Although, all the games I own for my DS are third party (Meteos, Advance Wars, Trauma Center) and they are all extremly innovative and good.

But I cannot say Sony has no innovation. It's just few and far between, and seems only to come from the Ico team. But moving into the next generation I feel that MS and Sony are targeting the wrong audience, they aren't targeting me. PS2 and Xbox were innovative enough to capture my intrest, but they've lost it now. I don't want Blu-Ray, I don't want a home mulimedia/gaming system. I just want something new, and it's not being offered. Besides, I'll be getting Oblivion on my PC.

[Dabombpizza]

Are you interacting with your TV in a new revolutionary way or are you just pushing the same buttons at the end of the day?

I would say the TV analogy is a very poor analogy. It's difficult to create something that is akin to what the remote will be able to do. The difference is more along the lines of a car to a motorcyle. Yes, both are forms of transportation, and both use engines, and both use gas. But a motorcycle offers a completly different form of control and thus an entirely new experience.

[Player 1]

I would say the TV analogy is a very poor analogy

I'd say it's pretty bang on the money. But you know, so long as you can move the goalposts around all the time and not deal with any of the points raised then the actual argument becomes irrelevent doesn't it?

I mean, DabombPizza is doing the same. Let's throw a HUGE amount of energy into defining a term instead of dealing with the issue of what amounts to re-releasing old games - or games that are not new in any major way (cue a long series of posts defining "new" "major" and "releasing"). So long as we can argue about these teensy details we can forget about the actual games because, if you spin it the right way, everything can be got off on a technicality and you can feel triumphant whilst you succeeded in not responding to the core issue.

I'm sure you'll all make fine political figures one day.

Good job I'm too dumb to see through the smoke and mirrors isn't it? :rolleyes:

G'night you crazy cats.

[Dabombpizza]

Eh, it was fun while it lasted, I do like a good argument. Although I still believe the analogies were poor (under Aristotelian logic it would be called a fallacy, or in simple terms comparing apples to oranges).

[Bone]

[/i]A reasoned debate is where you have the decency to apply the same rules of debate to both sides of the argument.

The secret to getting the answer you want is knowing how to ask the question. If you can't be bothered to phrase your statements clearly then expect them to be responded to in such a manner.

This is ANOTHER reason why I go to great effort to explain myself and not assume that everyone else is a mindreader.

But hey, I'm just some inconsiderate troll.
If you want to argue semantics, fine. I did rephrase my question for you when I realized that. But again, if you read my posts, or YOUR OWN, the original context that you posted was that Nintendo, not third parties, puts out rehashes. In that respect, your "reasoned debate" holds no water. You still didn't name Nintendo's rehashes.

And your analogies, all of them, have been poor stretches of logic. It's not apples and oranges, you've been comparing apples and grenades. You're a freelance writer? Don't quit your day job.

[thecrazyd]

Are you interacting with your TV in a new revolutionary way or are you just pushing the same buttons at the end of the day?

Are you getting revolutionary content that could never be provided without a remote control?

Has your using a remote radically changed the way people make, write, direct and broadcast TV programs?

Has your remote control suddenly made content providers switch off making TV that can be watched without a remote or will they just give you the same stuff with, perhaps, a novelty tweak that doesn't really make things all that different?



Ooh. And before you reply, don't confuse what your remote does with the services that your cable/satellite provider give. That's a whole other deal (and probably more comparable to online services)

But please, feel free to continue to miss the point.
Well, TV is not an interactive medium. You are thinking about what you see, rather then what you do. In an interactive medium, changing the way you interact will most definately change the way people make content.

[Harlan Hoyt]

Has your using a remote radically changed the way people make, write, direct and broadcast TV programs?

Yes, in fact it has. Go watch TV Land sometimes -- although, I don't know if they have TV Land in England. Television programs in the fifties and sixties were radically different from how they are now. Look at the rise of MTV and so-called (rightly or wrongly) MTV style editing and the proliferation of provocative commercials. All of that is designed to STOP YOU from flipping the channel with your remote control. It only takes a split second to move on to something more interesting with a remote -- whereas, if you were watching The Honeymooners you had to get your fat ass up off the couch, walk across the room and change the channel. Who cares if you have to sit through a couple commercials if you have to get up and walk all the way across the damn room. But with a remote, well, hell -- why not? You only have to move your thumb.

Moving beyond that, your metaphor is extremely poor. As Dabombpizza said, you've constructed yourself a big ol' fallacy. You're saying that the Revolution controller is to a remote control as walking across the room is to a traditional controller. Huh? This whole TV/remote analogy is just misleading (which I think Nintendo has not helped by referring to the controller as "remote-like" -- it may work for non-gamers, who knows, but regular gamers seem to be looking at it from all the wrong angles).

I think a more apt metaphor would be how a treaded tank is controlled and how a car is controlled. In a tank, you have two sticks, with two settings each, back and forward, for both treads. If you want to go straight, both are forward. If you want to go back, the opposite. If you want to turn, one goes forward and one back. Now, we all know how a care moves. It's a difference in control input. I'm not saying that either one is better than the other -- just that one is more intuitive. A driving wheel/accelerator/break set up wouldn't work on a tank, just like a tank control wouldn't work in a car. Now, a legitimate question is, will that car be a Yugo or a Ferrari, and that's something we could argue (although I think it's kind of a lopsided argument, given Nintendo's track record with quality).

Finally, rehashes versus ports. This is the stupidest fucking argument I've ever heard. Nintendo releases their old games on the GameBoy. Why, exactly is this a problem? People complain about abandonware all the time -- I know, I'm one of them. But when Nintendo actually does something about it -- releasing old, out of print games from old, out of print systems -- in a format that people can actually buy, people go nuts. Why? You don't want to play Mario Bros in its original form? Fine, don't buy it. You don't want to play Super Mario Speed Skating Fun? Alright, I don't either. But someone out there probably wants to see Mario in tights with freakishly huge thighs. What is so damn wrong with Nintendo meeting a market demand, even if it is a niche market? At least even the Mario sports games are usually FUN, which is more than can be said about, oh, I don't know, Star Wars Bobble Head Fucking Racing. I mean, good god. Let's have some priorities here.

[Savok]

Way too much text, it'd take me an hour to get through that, an hour better spent making gold in WoW. What I skimmed I will say Player 1 is wrong about everything and everyone else is right.

[Dabombpizza]

So who's going to trade friend codes when Mariokart DS comes out on Monday?

[Savok]

I might play with a few people here, don't know if the Wifi is set up in Australia yet though...

[Bone]

I figure we'll have a friends code list in the forums just like the Xbox Live ID list. I'll definitely be on it for some launch-day Mario Kart.

[Nessus]

"Are you getting revolutionary content that could never be provided without a remote control?"


I'd say being able to perfectly reproduce a player's movements and gestures in 3 dimensions is something that neither the current gen nor the PS3 or 360 controllers are capable of. So in that sense, yes it is something that could never be provided without a remote control.

[Player 1]

Way too much text, it'd take me an hour to get through that, an hour better spent making gold in WoW. What I skimmed I will say Player 1 is wrong about everything and everyone else is right.

You know, I don't really have a problem with whether you feel I'm right or not. I respect that everyone is entitled to their opinion.

However, if you can't show the common courtesy of listening to someone before you dismiss them then you're demonstrating a huge degree of arrogance and ignorance. Of course, if you HAD read my post or this topic in full you'd have seen that I covered this earlier and, by behaving in such a manner, immediately prove a large chunk of my critique on the behaviour of gamers to be 100% on the money.

If you're unhappy with that criticism then I can only suggest you don't behave that way in the future.

As for the 'rehash/port/remake' issue. I take issue with Nintendo over any other company because no other company keeps on harping on about INNOVATION and REDEFINING GENRES whilst, at the same time, going and launching hardware with Mario titles that we were all playing around a decade ago (Super Mario Bros 2 on GBA and Super Mario Bros 64 on the 'innovative' DS). I don't hear the other boys making these statements and contradicting themselves immediately afterward but Nintendo seem happy to do it all the time.

What do we know about the GAMES for the Revolution so far? Well, this amazing new console can play lots of old games from old systems. Oh, and Nintendo are likely to release a Metroid game.

Nintendo keep on screaming about innovation and originality but they act like a second hand car salesman. I'd prefer it if they either stopped pushing 'innovation' by showing me old games and showed me something new. So far, they've refused to do that and keep saying "But look, we're Nintendo and we're innovative - that's all you need to know". Sorry Nintendo, I'll wait to you actually do it instead of believe you or your marketing directors.

Finally, thanks to those who've made fun of me because they've disagreed with my opinion (past, present or future). By doing so you demonstrate your refusal to behave with maturity and ability to debate like a reasoned human being. You also prove me right - every single time.

Love and hugs,

Player 1

[Savok]

Opinion, that word is used far too loosely. I don't think Nintendo is re-releasing old games and sticking them on their portables. RESPECT MY OPINION!

You'll find most of the screaming about innovation coming from the fans - who aren't Nintendo by the way - a common mistake from the beginner. Besides which the Internet is always putting words into Nintendo's mouth. Remember the whole free download thing? What a mess that was.

As for the Rev itself, well what we do know is it's a fair way off yet and Nintendo really likes keeping secrets, so talking about how the thing is just going to be more rehashes is pretty god damn pointless right now.

And of course we're arrogant assholes, and no not because we know we're wrong and have made a secret pact to defame you, but because we've done this far too many times before and we're really fucking sick of it. You aren't the first and won't be the last saying exactly the same damn thing over and over.

[Player 1]

You aren't the first and won't be the last saying exactly the same damn thing over and over.

Which probably would happen a lot less if people didn't insist on 'skimming' over what others say before declaring 'everyone but this guy is right'.

If someone is passionate about their topic but is being given this whole "talk to the hand" attitude then they're probably going to repeat themselves until, maybe, a few people actually start to listen.

Are we listening yet?

[Savok]

I've listened to a hundread different people a hundred times before, like I said, this isn't new, it happened last gen as well back when I was still at GameFAQs. Doing this is more interesting, besides that you even had a go at something so obviously flawed shows you're green, still got that fire burning in your belly. Careful with that, you ever get good enough (unlikely as you make points without thinking or knowing anything and then abandon them) you may destroy something great before it even begins

Besides, I'm not the one you're arguing with.

[Player 1]

besides that you even had a go at something so obviously flawed shows you're green, still got that fire burning in your belly.

That is a fire of passion. Something that's driven me through 25 years of games playing and 15 years of combined retail, distribution, publishing, development and writing in the games industry.

I don't regard myself as green. Perhaps my credentials don't meet your high standards. For that, I can only apologise.

[Savok]

Retail? Man no wonder you're all screwed up.

And I was talking about the special olympics that is Internet flame wars, not gaming in general.

[Player 1]

Retail? Man no wonder you're all screwed up.

Well, I admit, it was back in the 8-bit and 16-bit days. But I'd rather speak with some experience and knowledge than none at all. Or worse still, 'assumed' knowledge. Eww.

Perhaps you'd like to justify your comments with your credentials. Oh wait, no need, I haven't assumed you're green and dismissed your responses without reading them.

Oops. Sorry. If I act with such terrible manners then I must be flaming or trolling.

Still, so long as you're challenging me to a dick-waving contest we don't have to worry about points that have been raised.

Retail? Man no wonder you're all screwed up.

85% percent of gamer response is diversionary tactics.

LOOK! Over there! The Goodyear blimp!

<runs>

[Savok]

I dismissed them because they've been done before. How was I to know you were green? I only skimmed so that couldn't have told me anyway, or maybe I've just been screwing with you all this time and I've read everything.

[Player 1]

I dismissed them because they've been done before. How was I to know you were green? I only skimmed so that couldn't have told me anyway,

You're absolutely right. Your presumptuous nature is all MY fault.

or maybe I've just been screwing with you all this time and I've read everything.

And when people wonder why the views of your typical vocal gamer are regarded with less and less credibility I'll be sure to point them to this topic. :rolleyes:

OK, I'm done. Go off and play something.

[Savok]

Yes, all typical vocal gamers are 21 year old virgin autistics who live with their parents, lacking a proper formal education they spend their time irritating people on the Internet and playing games they hate while they pop their psych meds.

I'd see a psychiatrist about that self loathing, it's hard on the gut being nauseated by your own pressence.

[Player 1]

Yes, all typical vocal gamers are 21 year old virgin autistics who live with their parents, lacking a proper formal education they spend their time irritating people on the Internet and playing games they hate while they pop their psych meds.

OK, I said it before but I guess it passed you by: if you don't like the criticism, change your behaviour. Don't act foolishly and then get snarky because someone calls you a fool.

It's not really rocket science is it?

[Savok]

If you'd actually read what I said you'd realise that I'm saying I'm a poor example of what's typical because very little of what I am is typical and is in fact, quite damaged.

Skimming and presumptuous are two words that come to mind...

[Bone]

Player1, you make pretty big demands. Although I've read every tiring word you've written, I don't think you should expect everyone here to. You don't provide much substance and your poorly constructed arguments and metaphors, which you claim prove you right, actually don't go anywhere.

Go on and keep bringing up your industry experience, as if that's going to make you right somehow. I'm pretty sure you're only convincing yourself. And that doesn't make me or anyone else here stupid or dense- it's your communication that isn't effective. Can't you make your point in 6 paragraphs or less?

[Magnanimous Gnome]

So, we're still at this, eh? Here I thought that my mega post would end this whole debate. Oh well...

Last night I was at Wal-Mart with a friend, buying some DVD-Rs. This friend is not a gamer whatsoever. We're back in electronics and we walk past the 360 that has just been set up. It is surrounded by the usual suspects: gamer nerds in dark clothing with long hair and unshaven faces. Not to stereotype or anything. ;)

Anyway, a Wal-Mart employee is also standing beside them, watching this little kid play Kameo on the monitor. Way to earn that 6.50 man. Then the debate starts.

"Microsoft is going to kick so much ass this gen. Sony won't even know what hit them."

"No way man, the PS3 is going to dominate. The things going to push out like 10 googleplex polygons!! Microsoft will be left in the dust."

"Dude, you're farking nuts. The Xbox is the best."

I kid you not, it was pretty much just like that. I rolled my eyes and walked past them, and my friend turned to me and said:

"Can you believe those guys? Who really argues about shit like that?"

That's how silly these whole "MY CONSOLE is the best!!" arguments sound.


So, in order to clean things up, I am going to apoligize to Player 1 and point out that he is very eloquent. All of his posts have been quite well written, which is more than I can say about mine.

Argh, I just got a call from the shop where my car is getting fixed. They found 3 more problems with the damn thing. I might as well have bought a new vehicle. :(

[dr_wily]

Hmm..I did notice we were having an intelligent and rational dialogue on the significance of Nintendo's market strategy. I forgot to slobber on the keyboard and put a cock in my mouth so that everytime I spoke I looked like a dick. Thank you for pointing that out when your opinion is truly unwanted, I appreciate that.

thank you for 2 different synonyms for the word penis. Since you had a dick in your mouth, would you really look like a dick? I'm confused. And "a" cock?
Quite the conundrum.

and no, this isnt a sensible rational dialogue.. this is a defensive stupid flame war involving Player 1's 40 posts on this thread (half of his total), each rife with so much inert dialogue defending himself over and over again we just have to keep scrolling and scrolling.

I wish I could stream inane dialogue for pages at a stretch.. then my school papers would have been longer. :P

[mister_slim]

I took me roughly 3.76 seconds to come up with Resident Evil and Metal Gear Solid - neither of which have any significant changes to their (Sony!*) originals other than graphical tweaking and some Nintendo branding.
This is odd to me. With quite a few examples of actual rehashes, such as Mario Parties 4, 5, 6, and 7, Mario Tennis, Mario Golf, 1080: Avalanche, and even SSBM, you choose two games that are acknowledged remakes? They aren't rehashes, they're the same games.
Sorry, you said "I can't think of a Gamecube game that isn't a rehash", I provided two (or 6).
You can't even quote him properly? Or remember what you argued a few posts earlier?

Cloaking your posts in foolish arrogance doesn't help your arguments, by the way.