XBox 360 Detailed Tech Specs, 3 Core Followup

[bapenguin]

A few days ago we posted info regarding why the XBox 360 has 3 cores. (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6670) It was rumored that 2 of the cores would be used for the system's graphics capabilities with only one core available for the game itself. Now details have emerged (http://www.xbox360news.com/Blogs/News/hqs/blr_483.aspx) from a recent tech conference in Japan on exactly what's going on with those 3 cores.

Among 3 cores in Xbox 360 CPU (codenamed "PX"), Core 0 is primary and Core 1/2 are secondary. Core 0 is fully usable by a game program. Core 1 and Core 2 are shared by a game program and the Xbox 360 system. Network stacks, services, drivers such as a USB driver run on those secondary cores. 5% computation usage of both core 1 and core 2 are reserved by the system.
So while Core 0 is 100% dedicated to the game, Core 1/2 are minimally used for basic system functions like the Dashboard, USB, networking, etc. Games may still take advantage of each one of these cores, but 5% is reserved for system use.

Other interesting information in this article in regards to transfer rates of the media including the DVD drive, Hard drive, and memory cards. It's pretty lame that only 7GB is available on the DVD....what the heck is taking up the other 1.4 GB? This may be part of the reason we heard developers complain recently.

[Xerxes]

But isn't multi-threading with all three cores going to be the ultimate goal down the line?

[novicius]

Bah, we have heard some developers complain about DVD storage space because they want to put HD-quality FMV on the disc -- to that I say tough titties, bitches! :D No cheating by sneaking a movie onto my viddy game!

[Okamura_Takashi]

7GB? You could only use 6.4GB on the Xbox so this is actually a bonus! :)

[sTubbs]

That 7GBs thing is kind of weird. At first I had no worries about MS using conventional DVDs, but considering that the devs are going to be expected to store super high resolution textures and so forth 7GBs might be a stretch (but I have to wonder if it is a typo in this article). Mind you I still stand by the fact the Bethesda has not complained or stated that Oblivion will be on multiple discs, so if they are managing to get everything on one DVD while not requiring the HDD, then I still think things might be OK.

[bean19]

7GB? You could only use 6.4GB on the Xbox so this is actually a bonus! :)

Isn't the purpose of this to keep the data transfer rate?

I don't always completely understand all the tech articles I read, but my understanding is that if you use the most outer layers of a DVD then this can escalate your load times exponentially.

-In a double-layer DVD for Xbox 360, 7GB is usable by a game. The transfer rate of the DVD drive is 15MB/sec max, 10-12MB/sec average. The seek time is 115ms, switching layers takes 75ms. Loading 512MB data takes 34 seconds.

-2GB in the HDD is used for a temporary cache area for games. Its average transfer rate is 17MB/sec and the average seek time is 13ms.

-Game data is managed per user account and saved in HDD, but 64MB Memory Unit is also usable for checkout/backup. The Memory Unit slot is 2.5MB/sec write, 8MB/sec read.
In its 512MB RAM, 32MB is allocated for the system. The RAM is GDDR3 SDRAM @ 700MHz (22.4GB/sec).

Just added these as they were the most interesting quotes in the original article.

Very interesting that the read from the HD is only slightly faster (17MB/sec) than the read directly from the DVD (10-12MB/sec) and that they are setting aside a portion of the hard-drive for pre-caching.

Also, it looks like saving won't take very long at all, which is nice. . . if not a feature that would make me choose one system over another.

[fitbabits]

Thanks for the updated info, bapenguin.

All I want at this point is to go to sleep and wake up the morning of November 22nd...

[Vandenh]

>going to be expected to store super high resolution textures and so forth 7GBs might be a stretch

Here we go again. PC games have FAR higher res textures and... shock... they all fit on 1 DVD. The only reason games will not fit on a DVD next gen is lots of music/sound, HD movies or a lot of static prerendered content.

[Chandler]

Isn't the purpose of this to keep the data transfer rate?

I don't always completely understand all the tech articles I read, but my understanding is that if you use the most outer layers of a DVD then this can escalate your load times exponentially.

I believe the outer layers are faster to read than the inner layers. It's sad how I know this though, it was when you had to make a dummy file for the Dreamcast Boot CD so that the boot executable was near the outer layer and easier to read.

[bean19]

That 7GBs thing is kind of weird. At first I had no worries about MS using conventional DVDs, but considering that the devs are going to be expected to store super high resolution textures and so forth 7GBs might be a stretch (but I have to wonder if it is a typo in this article). Mind you I still stand by the fact the Bethesda has not complained or stated that Oblivion will be on multiple discs, so if they are managing to get everything on one DVD while not requiring the HDD, then I still think things might be OK.

Instillation sizes for biggest games I could find INCLUDING their movies:

Everquest II (with like 20 hours of voice-acting) - 7 GB
Final Fantasy XI - 6 GB (probably 8 GB or so now with expansions)
Unreal Tournament 2004 - 5.5 GB
F.E.A.R - 5 GB
World of Warcraft - 4 GB (probably up to over 5 GB with updates)
Half-Life 2 - 4.5 GB
Call of Duty II - 4 GB
Dungeon Siege II - 4 GB
City of Heroes - 2 GB (probably grown to 4 GB with updates including CoV).
The Sims 2 - 3.5 GB
Star Wars Battlefront II - 3.2 GB
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas - 3.6 GB

In my search for really big ass games to show that they could still fit onto one DVD, I found a lot of games that really surprised me because they are so small in their size. Thought I'd put them up here to show you how much developers can do with under 3 GB or data storage.

Indigo Prophecy - 2.5 GB
Quake 4 - 2.8 GB
Battlefield 2 - 2.3 GB
Doom 3 - 2.2 GB
Max Payne 2 - 1.7 GB
Elder Scroll: Morrowind (I know it's old, but interesting number) - 1.1 GB
Civilization IV - 1.74 GB

As you can see, most games don't get anywhere near the amount of data that can be stored on a single DVD. Those that do approach it are the very biggest first-person shooters to date and a few MMOs.

Of course, they can always use more than one DVD and simply split up the first part of a game with the second part. Then we have to change out the DVD every 5 to 20 hours, but that isn't a big deal to me if everything loads up quickly.

Some MMOs may need to keep all their content accessible as a player is not playing alone. That player will still need to be able to SEE the uber armor worn by a high level player that ventures into a lowbie town, but they are allowing MMOs to install to the hard-drive.

This is, of course, next-gen and I think we can expect most games to be really big like F.E.A.R. in the sizes of their assets. F.E.A.R. is a fairly short game but has 5 GB worth of data. I think we will definitely be seeing some disc swapping in this generation because HD-DVD and Blu-Ray transfer rates aren't up to snuff. Yet.

Edit: Added Call of Duty 2 at 4 GB. Thanks Iron Weasel! Also put biggest games in descending order from biggest to smallest.

[bean19]

Btw, there may ONLY be 5 games that are actually above 5 GBs in size so far in existence (3 of which are MMOs. If you can think of any others, please post as I would be interested.)

[The Iron Weasel]

CoD2 is like 4 gigs, and its easily among the top 5 best looking launch titles.

[Borys]

The original CD media allows for about 2.1 GB of data but error correction, detection and EFM coding takes 1.4 GB from that, thus only 700MB are left.

[DanAmerson]

For those interested in the DVD load speed issue, DVDs have constant angular velocity which is why the outer rim of a DVD loads faster than the inner rim. The linear distance covered by the laser at the outer rim in a single rotation is much farther than the linear distance covered at the inner rim. Of course, there are other considerations as well such as block sizes and caching in the drivers and such.

CDs, if I recall, have constant linear velocity so they actually spin slower when you are reading the outer rim.

dba

[fitbabits]

For those interested in the DVD load speed issue, DVDs have constant angular velocity which is why the outer rim of a DVD loads faster than the inner rim. The linear distance covered by the laser at the outer rim in a single rotation is much farther than the linear distance covered at the inner rim. Of course, there are other considerations as well such as block sizes and caching in the drivers and such.

CDs, if I recall, have constant linear velocity so they actually spin slower when you are reading the outer rim.

dba
Feeeyooooooooooooooom! That is the sound your post made as it flew over my head at supersonic speed. :)

[novicius]

Ninja Gaiden is 6+ GBs, mostly due to the FMV. Ninja Gaiden Black must be straining the disk...

[bean19]

Feeeyooooooooooooooom! That is the sound your post made as it flew over my head at supersonic speed. :)

I got it.

fitabits - Imagine a record player if your parents had an old one of these like my parents did. If you put your finger on the outside portion of the record, it spins really fast because it is further from the center of the rotating circle. Likewise, as you get closer to the middle, you can lightly rest your fingers without them moving nearly as quickly.

So basically, the DVD player's laser is like your finger. At the outside of the disc, it covers a lot more ground (and reads a lot more data) as it is going faster, and is much more slow towards the center.

Conversely, the CDs adjust their speed, so imagine a record player that slowed down while it played the outer most song and hurried up as it got to the innermost song --- so that it reads at the exact same speed always.

Thanks for the lesson Dan. :) You should write tech articles for amateurs like me.

[bean19]

Ninja Gaiden is 6+ GBs, mostly due to the FMV. Ninja Gaiden Black must be straining the disk...

Possible that it compresses on the disc and then precaches to the hard-drive when it loads up the extra content?

[fitbabits]

I got it.

fitabits - Imagine a record player if your parents had an old one of these like my parents did. If you put your finger on the outside portion of the record, it spins really fast because it is further from the center of the rotating circle. Likewise, as you get closer to the middle, you can lightly rest your fingers without them moving nearly as quickly.

So basically, the DVD player's laser is like your finger. At the outside of the disc, it covers a lot more ground (and reads a lot more data) as it is going faster, and is much more slow towards the center.

Conversely, the CDs adjust their speed, so imagine a record player that slowed down while it played the outer most song and hurried up as it got to the innermost song --- so that it reads at the exact same speed always.

Thanks for the lesson Dan. :) You should write tech articles for amateurs like me.
Thank you! And I'm a wee bit older than you may be thinking given that I had my own turntable! :rolleyes:

[megaman]

Y is every1 comparin space required by next gen titles to those of current gen titles? True next gen wud require a lot more space won't they?

[Major Scud]

FMV should be the only thing that'd push a game over 1 DVD even in the next gen. With all FMV being forced to be HD by microsoft, I could definately see some rpg's running 3-4 discs.

[bapenguin]

Y is every1 comparin space required by next gen titles to those of current gen titles? True next gen wud require a lot more space won't they?

I don't think so. The textures which are large chunk the data aren't going to change much...the PC versions of the textures are already hi-resolution. Audio isn't going to change much either as it's still DD5.1 resolution quality....really the only difference is going to be in storing model data.....i'm not familar enough with it to judge the difference.

[sTubbs]

Y is every1 comparin space required by next gen titles to those of current gen titles? True next gen wud require a lot more space won't they?

That is what I was thinking, but apparently a single DVD will be just fine according to the specs provided by bean19 a few posts up. After seeing those sizes, I believe that Blu-Ray will provide no real advantage to the PS3 whatsoever. I thought that it was overblown in the first place, but now it just seems downright crazy.

[drakkarim]

well, perhaps if they're complaining about room then they can tone down their stupid logo videos (do we REALLY give a crap about anythign other then at most seeing a gif of their logo for 1 second?). also we don't need 'previews' on the discs (i have the net for that), and they won't need directx installs, and god knows what else.

in any case, the code should be much leaner since their target system is a contast, unlike the pc.

[Morrolan]

My main problem with 7GBs of space is that it limits the amount of media. In that Oblivion leak/release thing, the narrator mentions that the voices in the game take up HALF the disc. That's just the voices.

Now, it's telling that a game as large as Oblivion could fit everything else into the other half. But then again, a very large portion of their world is covered with procedurally generated forests. Not every game is going to have that luxury, though admitted not every game is going to need even a tenth of the voice run-time Oblivion does.

Hmmm. I think I had a point when I started typing...

[Vandenh]

> is every1 comparin space required by next gen titles to those of current gen titles? True next gen wud require a lot more space won't they?

Aaaa.. my eyes!

Anway.. spelling aside... in the case of game assets, current PC titles are more or less next gen console quality. So our argument is that, based on current PC assets, this gen of consoles will rarely need more than a DVD unless they go crazy with FMV.

[bapenguin]

This is interesting, in an interview (http://www.bizarreonline.net/index.php?action=fullnews&showcomments=1&id=64) with the creator of Geometry Wars, he mentions how the game utilizes the 3 cores.Q: One of the most striking new graphical features in the game is the "gravity grid" play area. How did you make this look so cool; does every object in the game really have its own gravity?

The grid itself is made up of 60,000 points, each one exerting a small amount of force on its neighbour. The simulation itself sits on the edge of stability which is what causes it to swing about so much when one of the game objects gives it a small push!

Only a few types of object affect the grid. As the grid system is rather expensive to calculate, it actually runs on the second core along with the audio system, (the first core being dedicated to gameplay and particles, the third is used to render the audio).

Sweet.

[KhitomerRouge]

After seeing those sizes, I believe that Blu-Ray will provide no real advantage to the PS3 whatsoever. I thought that it was overblown in the first place, but now it just seems downright crazy. Except if Sony is positioning the PS3 to stand in as low-price, 1080p-capable Blu-Ray movie player (which, at this point is where 99.99% of their support for the format is coming from). Considering that Toshiba has stated that the reference HD-DVD player will come in at a ~$1000 price point, an (estimated) $500 Blu-Ray player that also plays next-gen games sounds pretty good. I know it doesn't matter much to most folks, and I won't disagree with the "Blu-Ray/HD-DVD is a niche format" argument, but HT types like myself have been following the PS3 with a great deal of interest.

[Roc Ingersol]

Except if Sony is positioning the PS3 to stand in as low-price, 1080p-capable Blu-Ray movie player
Because people with enough disposable income for an HD TV and Tuner are going to have to scape pennies together to get a low-rent player...

[Syrinx]

Because people with enough disposable income for an HD TV and Tuner are going to have to scape pennies together to get a low-rent player...

Why pay $1000 when as he said you can get a $500 one that plays games as well?

[KhitomerRouge]

Well, obviously low-price is a relative term here. Still, you can get HDTVs for ~$1000 easy nowadays, and prices are only expected to drop. In the format war, the winner (even if the whole thing ends up as a wash) will be the one with the most support from content providers and the most market penetration. The former is all but decided, and the latter will depend on cost (in respect to the competitor) and brand recognition. I'm sure anyone that doesn't know what a PS3 is now will know by Spring of next year.

[JediSanf]

Because people with enough disposable income for an HD TV and Tuner are going to have to scape pennies together to get a low-rent player...

Khitomer's point is valid though. There's no denying tha the DVD playback capabilities in the PS2 helped make the format standard. I don't think the same will happen with Blu-Ray but I can see why Sony thinks it's a good idea.
Personally, I'm waiting for Square to come out in a year or two and show us just what the hardware can do.

[bone4ahead]

let me get this straight, the X360 has 32 MB RAM set aside for the OS. The PS2 has 32 MB RAM total. The X360 has 5% of two of its 3.2 GHz set aside. That's a combined 320 MHz. The PS2 has a 233 MHz processor. So theoreticly speaking, one could run a Xbox 360 game and at the same time run a PS2 game. This just goes to prove that MS makes crappy operating systems that bloat every generation. The Xbox 360 operating system takes more resources than a PS2 game. W.T.F.?

[The Iron Weasel]

let me get this straight, the X360 has 32 MB RAM set aside for the OS. The PS2 has 32 MB RAM total. The X360 has 5% of two of its 3.2 GHz set aside. That's a combined 320 MHz. The PS2 has a 233 MHz processor. So theoreticly speaking, one could run a Xbox 360 game and at the same time run a PS2 game. This just goes to prove that MS makes crappy operating systems that bloat every generation. The Xbox 360 operating system takes more resources than a PS2 game. W.T.F.?

The OS on the 360 does a fuckload more then the PS2's ever dreamed of.

[bone4ahead]

The OS on the 360 does a fuckload more then the PS2's ever dreamed of.

So your saying the 360 OS is more complicated than GTA: SA or Shadow of the Colossus? I could understand it if the Xbox 360 was idle, but while playing a game, using 32 MB for the OS is insane! (Yes, Windows XP uses like 150 MB, but it's a computer)

[Twigz'N'Berries]

I think I missed it in math class...how much exactly is a 'fuckload'?

Anyway, the PS3 'should' have more of an appeal to someone who wanted a BR player right away (the early adopters) but doesn't want to pay the inital exhorbitant amount they are expected to cost.
I can see the appeal of a PS3 from a middle-class family standpoint. It takes care of the Blu-Ray player that we need to get, it takes care of the new gaming rig we need to get and it has a lot of other media functions that can be hooked up to the tv (USB ports). Plus, (though I highly doubt it) if the PS3 has the TIVO like function as promised, that will take care of TIVO too.

If Sony was smart, they would market an cable based service that takes care of the TIVO/DDR features, online gaming and music/movie downloads. They have a huge movie and music business as it is. They would simply need to work out a deal w/a large cable provider.or satellite company.

[JediSanf]

I think I missed it in math class...how much exactly is a 'fuckload'?


A 'fuckload' is somewhere between my annual salary and the number that is quickly becoming the bane of Gate's existance.

Mathmatically: (Diddly/Squat)<'fuckload'<Google

[Achilles]

This just goes to prove that MS makes crappy operating systems that bloat every generation. The Xbox 360 operating system takes more resources than a PS2 game. W.T.F.?First of all the entire OS has to be loaded into RAM at all times. I'd like to see the PS2 game that runs on no more than 32 megs worth of information. Even simple puzzle games read something off the disc at some point. It's also fairly complex to be able to pause any game, switch to a different game, manage accounts, buy stuff, talk to people, change music, read from USB devices, all while the game you're playing is on-hold, then go back to it. There's a lot of stuff there, the guide is a powerful tool.

[bone4ahead]

First of all the entire OS has to be loaded into RAM at all times. I'd like to see the PS2 game that runs on no more than 32 megs worth of information. Even simple puzzle games read something off the disc at some point. It's also fairly complex to be able to pause any game, switch to a different game, manage accounts, buy stuff, talk to people, change music, read from USB devices, all while the game you're playing is on-hold, then go back to it. There's a lot of stuff there, the guide is a powerful tool.

Hmmm... good points. You win.

[mister_slim]

If Sony was smart, they would market an cable based service that takes care of the TIVO/DDR features, online gaming and music/movie downloads. They have a huge movie and music business as it is. They would simply need to work out a deal w/a large cable provider.or satellite company.
We'll see that, I'm sure. I think they've been experimenting with similar services in Japan. A Bluetooth keyboard and mouse, an office suite and a web browser would fill most of the functions of a computer.

[JediSanf]

We'll see that, I'm sure. I think they've been experimenting with similar services in Japan. A Bluetooth keyboard and mouse, an office suite and a web browser would fill most of the functions of a computer.

I can't remember where, but didn't someone at Sony say they were getting the PS3 licenced AS a computer in the UK and Europe? Something about the classification avoids import taxes.

[sTubbs]

I can't remember where, but didn't someone at Sony say they were getting the PS3 licenced AS a computer in the UK and Europe? Something about the classification avoids import taxes.

They did that this generation too. That is why the PS2 is subtitled as "Sony Computer Entertainment System". There was quite a major lawsuit filed against Sony claiming this to be bad trade practices or something, but I can not remember how it turned out. I would assume that Sony got away with it if they are planning to do the same thing again.

[KhitomerRouge]

If you're still hazy on the whole "PS3 is a vehicle for Blu-Ray" concept, it appears the studios are saying (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001393147) exactly what I said:
"The reason Sony has suddenly gained support for Blu-ray is simple," said a high-level studio executive close to the discussions. "PS3 is a subsidized Blu-ray play that will sell 20 million units. The first HD player will be on the market for $1,000. PS3 could be at $300 or $400. Sony will be selling them at a loss the first six months to a year just to get Blu-ray players out in the market. So studios realize they need to have their content on it."

[mister_slim]

They did that this generation too. That is why the PS2 is subtitled as "Sony Computer Entertainment System". There was quite a major lawsuit filed against Sony claiming this to be bad trade practices or something, but I can not remember how it turned out. I would assume that Sony got away with it if they are planning to do the same thing again.
If I remember they failed, but their justification was a crippled Linux package they tossed in. If they make more of serious attempt, like a built in web browser and maybe a word processor (OpenOffice maybe?) they could get away with it.