View Full Version : Controller Better than Mouse/Keyboard for FPS?
bapenguin
10-24-2005, 04:08 PM
IGN (http://www.ign.com) is trying to put to bed the age-old question: "Is a gamepad as good for a FPS as a mouse and keyboard?" With the recent release of the XBox 360 Controller for the PC, this gave IGN the chance to see what would happen (http://insider.ign.com/articles/660/660505p1.html) (insiders only).
To settle things once and for all we pit Erik Brudvig of IGN guides against Charles Onyett of IGN Xbox. Erik is a seasoned Halo player and recently honed his skills on the Multiplayer Map Pack guide. Charles may live and breath Xbox, but he's also an avid PC gamer and very comfortable with the whole mouse and keyboard thing.
There are, of course, a huge number of variables involved in this test. First off, the Windows version of the game doesn't play exactly like it does on the console. The flamethrower and Covenant fuel rod gun slightly change the balance of the classic maps and movement has been adjusted to fit the fast pace of PC gaming. After a few rounds, Erik found that the game felt more familiar with the look sensitivity turned down on the right analog stick. Most importantly, many of us in the office have come to the conclusion that Charles lacks the killer instinct to propel him to greatness in any type of death match.
Charles Onyett, IGN Xbox: Despite my best efforts, I stand a beaten and horribly bruised gamer. Using a keyboard and a mouse, I was thoroughly thrashed at Halo on PC by IGN's Mr. Erik Brudvig who was using an Xbox 360 controller. The shame, the horrible shame. I should be slaughtered with rusty spoons for allowing such a travesty to take place. Before I am dismembered and devoured by a pack of rabid, half-starved gophers, at least hear my list of excuses.
I'm surprised by the results. The control setups for a console FPS vs a PC FPS are vastly different. I would think that by using a gamepad on the PC version of Halo was a huge disadvantage, just as using a keyboard/mouse on the XBox version would be. How accurate is all this? Does this really settle the argument? I don't think so, each controller has it's place. This argument is very black and white with a whole lot of grey inbetween.
Personally, as a long time PC gamer and a more recent console FPS gamer, I find a gamepad more than adequate for all console FPS. I never have a problem finding just the right spot to aim, or fine any difficulty moving. Don't get me wrong, I love my mouse and keyboard (see my gaming mice reviews (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6345)), but I also love my gamepad.
Thanks H.Bogard.
Bushido
10-24-2005, 04:12 PM
I refuse to read this article. Keyboard mouse layout is teh best and no one can deny it....no one!!1
XxSATANxX
10-24-2005, 04:12 PM
BULLSHIT!!
No freaking way. I've done this test a few times with vs. a few diff setups. Let me be on the KB I'll hand the controller guy his ass.
SuperMonkeyFighter2
10-24-2005, 04:14 PM
Hey, it's all down to the skillset of the player. I find that gamepads offer a similar sensativity to mice these days, so aiming isn't a bother. Plus a gamepad offers very easy access to multiple buttons at once while never having to look down.
At the end of the day though ... personal preference
askheaves
10-24-2005, 04:16 PM
Before I even RTFA, I can tell you that the one thing I was REALLY disappointed with on the XBox360 was the controller when playing COD2. I mopped up on the PC demo of it, but it was impossible to aim.
The first thing that gets me is the deadzone and the exponential acceleration of the stick that gets me. Then, the only feedback you get for stick position is how fast the reticle moves. That's way too slow of a feedback system. Minute maneuvers get turned into major adjustments. That's something you can't have in a high stress situation; especially as a casual gamer.
jacktion
10-24-2005, 04:18 PM
This is way unscientific. You need to do this study over a large group of people and see if the top people are using controllers or keyboard/mouses. I don't believe it is personal preference. They are so different that there has to be an inherent advantage to one or the other. I mean some people prefer automatic transmissions in cars but a stick shift is inherently faster. Some tennis players like a wooden racket but it is clear that a carbon graphite composite racket is considered the best choice. So we still need to see a real scientific study to find out the reality. I'd say KB would win out though. A little joystick is just not as accurate as a mouse with the whole table surface to use.
KDups
10-24-2005, 04:22 PM
Before I am dismembered and devoured by a pack of rabid, half-starved gophers, at least hear my list of excuses.
How do they manage to hire an entire staff with the same terrible sense of humor? Seriously, they all write shit like this.
Oh yeah, this article proves nothing. Except maybe that having a job where writing assinine articles like these is all in a day's work must be a sweet gig.
DannoHung
10-24-2005, 04:25 PM
Checking if the "top" people use controllers would not be a statistially accrate verification of anything.
What you would need to do is find a stochastic sampling of players of varying skillsets and measure performance (which can be subjective) and then possibly do a study on the sub-selection of players at different skill levels.
I would not be suprised if there were marginal gains at a low skill level with the controller and marginal gains at a high skill level with the M+KB, however, I would imagine that it would be nearly, if not totally, statistically irrelevant.
There is one thing though that I think we should finally be able to agree on regardless of the scientific verification of interface performance: Putting a FPS on a console does not degrade its quality.
Zurik
10-24-2005, 04:27 PM
Alot of this is personal preference. You could do the same test with Day of Defeat(provided you can use a gamepad for it)and it would probably come up with the KB/Mouse user on top. The only way to really test would be to have to people of equal skill using their respective tools in a variety of pc and console games. I'm guessing we'd end up with close to a draw.
EvilBob46
10-24-2005, 04:28 PM
What a terrible article. "The Xbox 360 controller is so great, it like, is better than a mouse!" Whatever. Crackheads...
Adam Blue
10-24-2005, 04:32 PM
As much as I prefer using mouse/keayboard on my PC, I actually do better in CERTAIN games with a gamepad.
It's all about skill. A skilled gamer can do both.
Liquidize105
10-24-2005, 04:33 PM
God, are we running out of topics over there?
hund_
10-24-2005, 04:37 PM
when are the console makers gonna wise up and let us use whatever we want?i should be able to use a usb keyboard,mouse,gamepad,or a friggin divining rod if i want.
it would only increase the sales of consoles and peripherals
[you'd think ms would of figgered this one out];)
Kelegacy
10-24-2005, 04:39 PM
As much as I prefer using mouse/keayboard on my PC, I actually do better in CERTAIN games with a gamepad.
It's all about skill. A skilled gamer can do both.
Yeah, but not FPS's. Give me a gamepad for any other type of game, but NOT a FPS.
Scientists recently disproved the "gamepad is better than KB/M" theory. I believe it was MIT, and their findings showed that anyone who is ridiculous enough to think a gamepad makes a game more realistic, more intuitive, or overall easier to control was, in fact, a total fucking fool.
Citizen Philip
10-24-2005, 04:40 PM
In other news, when your primary advertiser is also is the focus of your reviews, your editorial integrity is compromised. Of course, fan boys will just toss this log onto their pyre, and everyone else will continue to not pay attention to game reviews.
I don't care what PC elitists say, the keyboard and mouse were not designed to play videogames. I'll take a controller anyday.
Paltry
10-24-2005, 04:46 PM
I think that games developed for gamepads are better suited for gamepads and vice versa... i dunno... seems to make sense to me...
I couldnt imagine playing halo 2 with a mouse and keyboard but halo was the first fps i played without one. After time it becomes second nature, plus melee and what not feels a little more natural. Mmmm, greenthumb...
Conner Dain
10-24-2005, 04:47 PM
There's no way to prove it definitively, but here's a better way: Find an FPS that's primarily deathmatch and exists in both platforms (Xbox and PC). Have two tournaments; one Xbox and one PC. Then pit the winners of both tournaments against each other. I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.
I'm staying out of this one. I'm not masochistic.
Which is why I prefer a mouse and keyboard.
I don't care what PC elitists say, the keyboard and mouse were not designed to play videogames. I'll take a controller anyday.
Most retarded argument ever. Devoid of all logic and reason.
KNOTE
10-24-2005, 05:03 PM
Well if the game's levels and weapons are not designed to not be twitch/precision-based then you should be able to do just fine with a gamepad. If it were a game like rainbow six or counterstrike, the mouse and keyboard would come out ahead. It all depends on how the game is tuned.
All FPS games should be precision based(and lacking a 3 foot hit box mind you). What's the fun in "Point in general vicinity of target, spray and pray with overpowered weapon." That type of gameplay is developed as a workaround for a limitation.
caenelgren
10-24-2005, 05:07 PM
Well, the "insider only" video basically says they took their best Halo player who was used to using a controller going up against an editor who admits he "isn't very good at fps games" who used the mouse and keyboard (he's also the Xbox editor..maybe not used to mouse/keyboard anyway?). So pretty much the results would likely have been the same no matter what controller setup they used. Retarded article.
tenchiker
10-24-2005, 05:11 PM
I've tried many times to get used to fps controls on a console but i just can't. Keyboard & mouse all the way.
I love these classic arguments where we can polarize a whole group of people based on personal preference (see: Windows vs Linux, PC vs Mac, domestic vs import cars, etc).
I prefer mouse and keyboard for FPS. Anyone who doesn't is a cheap bastard.
Dracula-X
10-24-2005, 05:21 PM
I prefer KB/Mouse. It really depends on the user and the game tho. Some games are geared for a KB/Mouse combo, but some gamers are equally adept on a controller. What are we debating again? :)
nonchalance
10-24-2005, 05:22 PM
A very very good player with a gamepad may be somewhere around as good as a very very good player with a KB/M.
A beginner with a gamepad will get beaten by a beginner with a KB/M every fucking time.
Oblivion
10-24-2005, 05:31 PM
Well, my personal experience: Played pc games exclusively for many years, quake 2 is my first wasd+mouse experience. played many FPSes after that on PCs. When I tried to play halo on xbox a year before, I got so frustrated I sweared I will never play a FPS on a console. It did not feel natural at all, I felt myself limited in all ways, my aim was so off I felt like a retard. I acknowledge that I might get used to it if I was good at masochistic stuff, but I like fun.
A very very good player with a gamepad may be somewhere around as good as a very very good player with a KB/M.
I just don't see how that as possible. I'm not saying a very very good gamepad player couldn't hold his own and win a few if he was in a server full of average mouse players. But against a very very good KB/Mouse player? He'd be running circles around him and would take 5 in the face before squeezing a shot. It's more than just aiming.
Goronmon
10-24-2005, 05:36 PM
KB/M is more accurate.
Gamepad is more fun.
Murmillo
10-24-2005, 05:39 PM
What a stupid arguement. There is no way to dirrectly compare the two. Controllers have thier good points just as K/M have thier good points. Neither are better then the other.
thecrazyd
10-24-2005, 05:39 PM
KB/M is more accurate.
Gamepad is more fun.
How is being innaccurate fun? That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
Last of the Red Hot Mamas
10-24-2005, 05:43 PM
It's pretty clear that the SpaceOrb 360 is the one true controller.
ldi222
10-24-2005, 05:44 PM
Keyboard / mouse may be more fun for the dinosaurs but the gamepad is how the future of FPS gaming will be held.
How is being innaccurate fun? That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
Yes, but that's the core point I've argued gamepad fans to. The only fact brought up is correct, the rest is opinion. So not worth arguing.
Keyboard / mouse may be more fun for the dinosaurs but the gamepad is where the future of FPS gaming will be had.
Satire. I get it.
Draft
10-24-2005, 05:45 PM
How about not using fucking HALO, a game DESIGNED for pads.
Do this same contest with Unreal2k4 or CS: Source and see what happens.
I LIKE gamepad controls for FPS games, but this is ridiculous.
ldi222
10-24-2005, 05:48 PM
Im playing FEAR right now on the PC and loving it but I would have enjoyed it even more if it was on xbox because I would get to use a gamepad. Then I would get rumble feedback, and I wouldnt be looking at my damn keyboard for the shift button to zoom, the ctrl key for bullet time and the damn z button for health packs. Oh, Id also have an analog trigger and another analog button for melee or grenades (instead of finding the G key). As far as being able to aim, yeah gamepads did take some getting used to but believe it or not now I even aim better with them than the damn mouse too!
bapenguin
10-24-2005, 05:50 PM
How about not using fucking HALO, a game DESIGNED for pads.
Do this same contest with Unreal2k4 or CS: Source and see what happens.
I LIKE gamepad controls for FPS games, but this is ridiculous.
Like I said in my little comment, certain games are designed for gamepads, other games for mice and keyboards. It's near impossible to judge them against each other.
Dabombpizza
10-24-2005, 05:51 PM
Obviously this article was just a push to show that Xbox360 is "cool". Aside from that all you have to do is look at the hardware to tell if one is better than the other. I know that gaming mice can get up to 1600dpi which is a pretty damn fine amount of control. And while I don't know the amount of dpi an analog stick brings to the party I'm willing to bet it's way less than 1600dpi.
Also, as it's been said repteadely, there are games designed for the analog stick and games designed for KB/M. I know that if I plugged the gamepad into BF2 I'm going to suck big balls.
But aside from that, my personal experience with the analog stick is: yea, it's fun. It feels comfortable. But accuracy and tracking a moving object is incredibly hard when compared to a mouse. It's like playing a flight sim with a mouse, it just doesn't work the same but it's possible to be good at it.
Now let's compare the stylus to the 360 controller.
Demize99
10-24-2005, 05:52 PM
Gamepads derive their "accuracy" from computer assits. During the development of the PC port of Halo a developer diary addressed concerns that Gearbox thought the Singleplayer game might be too easy because of the mouse and keyboard. I remember reading "but once we turned off Halo's autoaim feature from the console the game balanced itself out."
Obviously though they did this match on halo pc without the controls, they used a really good xbox controler player vs a crappy mouse player. How is that even a fair test of the controler vs the mouse/kb?
crashedout
10-24-2005, 05:52 PM
If the gamepad was better the pro players would use it on the PC all the time, they can easily get a PS2 or xbox clone on the PC. The fact that when given the choice they use a KB/Mouse proves the point. Furthermore if the gamepad was so good at FPS's why do most of them include auto-aiming? The devs know it is inferior, they do what they can to get-round this limitation but their are limits. I love gamepads but not for FPS's.
Dabombpizza
10-24-2005, 05:54 PM
Im playing FEAR right now on the PC and loving it but I would have enjoyed it even more if it was on xbox because I would get to use a gamepad. Then I would get rumble feedback, and I wouldnt be looking at my damn keyboard for the shift button to zoom, the ctrl key for bullet time and the damn z button for health packs.
There are mice with force feedback, I have one (although it's terribly supported). Just because you don't know where your keys are on the board is not an excuse for the gamepad being better, that just means you're more familiar with the gamepad. I couldn't imagine playing FEAR with a controller, especially for the high precision head shots in slow-mo, man those are fun.
Im playing FEAR right now on the PC and loving it but I would have enjoyed it even more if it was on xbox because I would get to use a gamepad. Then I would get rumble feedback, and I wouldnt be looking at my damn keyboard for the shift button to zoom, the ctrl key for bullet time and the damn z button for health packs. Oh, Id also have an analog trigger and another analog button for melee or grenades (instead of finding the G key). As far as being able to aim, yeah gamepads did take some getting used to but believe it or not now I even aim better with them than the damn mouse too!
You have to look at the keyboard? I don't think I've ever had to do that, dating back to Wolf3d when I was about 7 or 8. This is of course including FEAR. Did you try changing the default layout?(I don't remember what it is).
And yeah, for FEAR to work on a console you'd have to add a hit box, lessen the recoil on the guns, add a wider spread on the bullets and up the damage on non headshots. Fun.
As far as being able to aim, yeah gamepads did take some getting used to but believe it or not now I even aim better with them than the damn mouse too!
Your opinion is null and void. Just say "Somehow, I suck with a mouse".
I know that gaming mice can get up to 1600dpi which is a pretty damn fine amount of control
2000 ;). Not sure it really matters all that much though.
thiby
10-24-2005, 05:59 PM
Revaloution controller. lol.
Cubfan
10-24-2005, 06:06 PM
It seems obvious to me that a mouse can be quicker and more accurate. With that said, I prefer a controller. A gamepad offers more of a tactile response, and slower, more difficult aiming can make shooting sometimes feel a bit more realistic. Most important, for me at least, is that I sit in an office and point and click all day at the computer. Sitting down with a controller, away from the computer, provides a nice release, and tends to help me relax.
TheKeck
10-24-2005, 06:09 PM
The idea that a controller works better than or as well as a keyboard/mouse is simply ridiculous.
I'm just going to end with that blanket statement, as I've read through the thread and actual arguments explaining my general assertion are more than sufficient.
holysin
10-24-2005, 06:23 PM
Did you guys see the video for that?
I can't get the feeling it was a biased feature.
The xbox guy has obviously been playing halo for a long time, while the pc guy seemed like he never played halo.
So it's pretty obvious the xbox guy would win. Now I'd like to see him play against someone that has played as much halo as he has on the pc.
It's also weird how the xbox guy says "he's a loser, just look at him, everybody makes fun of him" about the pc guy. Somewhat unecessary, no?
Paltry
10-24-2005, 06:31 PM
I'm staying out of this one. I'm not masochistic.
Really? Your series of arrogant posts say otherwise...
Most retarded argument ever. Devoid of all logic and reason.
You have to look at the keyboard? I don't think I've ever had to do that, dating back to Wolf3d when I was about 7 or 8.
Your opinion is null and void. Just say "Somehow, I suck with a mouse".
...So not worth arguing.
Satire. I get it.
Mason
10-24-2005, 06:33 PM
This one has been covered. Dumb nonsense article, which was very likely crafted specifically to draw attention.
RTS and FPS are the two man PC-centric game genres, and yeah, they work best with a mouse. If you can't see why, stretch your geometric thinking a little. The answer is pretty intuitive.
Goronmon
10-24-2005, 06:34 PM
How is being innaccurate fun? That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
Prolly not as stupid as someone who is unable to read though, huh? ;)
I never said that inaccurate is more fun. All I said is that mice are more accurate, therefore, they potentially give you the chance to become better than a person using a kb/m.
However, gamepads offer a better tactile feel, and better overall controls. Plus you get the advantage of sitting in a more relaxed position than when you are at a keyboard.
Of course, one could argue that the accuracy of the kb/m can be a bad thing. Its almost too acurate, to the point of being boring or even annoying in certain situations. I mean, playing games like CS where people can one-shot you from across the map while you are both running around at full speed doesn't exactly lend itself to fun playing. Plus, after a while, all FPS on the PC feel pretty much the same, you point and click, just like you do all day on the computer.
nonchalance
10-24-2005, 06:39 PM
Revaloution controller. lol.
Will be the best of both worlds, looking at this particular thread.
The accuracy and ease-of-use that mouse people want, and the tactile feedback and couch-sittiness that gamepad people want.
Really? Your series of arrogant posts say otherwise...
Yeah. I should of known better. It's almost becoming a cliche to say your out and still be in it. I'll have to disagree on the ignorant part. You don't see me saying a gamepad is worse because I can't figure out the layout of the buttons. And I think it's pretty much fact a mouse is more accurate, period. How that relates to your gaming experience is something else. I haven't argued with a couple of gamepad supporters in this thread because they seem to grasp this "logic" thing better than others.
So to clarify, I fully respect the opinions of Goronmon and like minded thinkers. I'm not making a blanket statement against all gamepad supporters and I aplogize if it came accross that way.
Edit: AND after typing that whole thing up I realized you said arrogant and not ignorant. Go figure ;). Guess I can't argue the arrogant comment. It's borne from a complete and utter lack of understanding.
KDups
10-24-2005, 06:48 PM
Of course, one could argue that the accuracy of the kb/m can be a bad thing. Its almost too acurate, to the point of being boring or even annoying in certain situations. I mean, playing games like CS where people can one-shot you from across the map while you are both running around at full speed doesn't exactly lend itself to fun playing. Plus, after a while, all FPS on the PC feel pretty much the same, you point and click, just like you do all day on the computer.
...I...if anyone...this...forget it, I just can't respond.
This one has been covered. Dumb nonsense article, which was very likely crafted specifically to draw attention.
Mission accomplished. IGN wins again.
drakkarim
10-24-2005, 06:48 PM
i don't care how many tests/comparisons/competitions they have to campare anything, what matters to me is how both feel TO ME, and to me the controller has always been nothing but slop.
nobody's going to force me to use a controller just because some console is too arrogant to give the user a choice. i'll stay with the PC until they realize they don't "know everything".
H.Bogard
10-24-2005, 06:56 PM
I'll take a controller anyday.
up your ass?
Schnoogs
10-24-2005, 06:56 PM
I've played FPS's since their inception...with over 15 years of experience I can say with certainty that I do not enjoy playing them with a controller. I played Halo on both the PC and the XBox and had way more difficulties trying to aim with the controller.
The mouse is truly superior at aiming and this seems to be a universally agreed upon FACT by fans of the FPS genre. Since the days of Wolfenstein millions of players have stuck by the keyboard and mouse...there's a reason for that loyalty.
IGN is once again demonstrating how little they know and how much they get on their knees for their advertisers.
The_Reckoning
10-24-2005, 07:00 PM
Yeah, IGN are hollow. They are owned by Fox, remember?
Haha, I remember from PCGamer, the days of Dreamcast Quake III, where some people with the PC version found out how to connect to Dreamcast servers. Needless to say, they slaughtered them all. Hence PC mouse/keyboard the superior method.
Mondopest
10-24-2005, 07:05 PM
I think it is all a matter of taste. Personally I prefer mouse and keyboard. To each his or her own I say.
H.Bogard
10-24-2005, 07:12 PM
Meh, I originally posted this thread as a bashing to their INSIDERS ONLY article thing :) ...it had nothing to do with kb/m v gamepad
You should'nt be paying to read shit like this...
Ludoc
10-24-2005, 07:41 PM
Meh, I originally posted this thread as a bashing to their INSIDERS ONLY article thing :) ...it had nothing to do with kb/m v gamepad
You should'nt be paying to read shit like this...
In fact, IGN should be paying us to read this crap.
goc_sin
10-24-2005, 07:50 PM
I think it's time we segregate gamers... No console gamers drinking from my fountain! ;)
trip1eX
10-24-2005, 08:04 PM
Will be the best of both worlds, looking at this particular thread.
The accuracy and ease-of-use that mouse people want, and the tactile feedback and couch-sittiness that gamepad people want.
Exactly. Can't wait to try the REvolution controller!!!!
Anyway there's a reason you see pcs with mice and not analog sticks.
Mr_Snuffle
10-24-2005, 08:16 PM
This is stupid. KB/M will be more accurate than a controler, hense the required autoaiming in most every console FPS
The only bonus of a controller is that you can use it while lying upside down on the couch
Goronmon
10-24-2005, 08:18 PM
...I...if anyone...this...forget it, I just can't respond
What, do I need to insult you to get a decent response? Man, just give me some counter-points or something to work with. :p
Frogleg Special
10-24-2005, 08:20 PM
Charles Onyett is an Xbox/Xbox360 editor as AFAIK he only writes Xbox reviews. Fuck his so-called k/m mastery.
Another IGN kaching machine to reap fund for Microsoft. Pathetic.
Spigot
10-24-2005, 08:21 PM
I've played some games on consoles that have fps elements in them and they're passable, but are in no way as precise as using a mouse to aim.
Unless the 360 had a trackball that you could use instead of your analogue stick, forget it.
Verocity
10-24-2005, 08:37 PM
I guess I'm pretty bias since I've been playing FPS since Duke Nukem came out. I remember trying to play Golden Eye on the N64 in death match. Man I got slaughtered. Same goes for Halo with the XBox. It just seems so sluggish.
Then again, I play FPS games with the sensitivity up to about 70%. I blame all the Quake TF games I played years back. You needed some serious aiming when playing a sniper on the roof tops. Man that was fun stuff. You had about 1.5 seconds to snipe their head or you were blown to chunks. :)
H.Bogard
10-24-2005, 09:03 PM
Unless the 360 had a trackball that you could use instead of your analogue stick, forget it.
Oh what would you know! -_- ......mr. "IM NOT IMPRESSED WITH F.E.A.R & I LOVE KATAMARI"
jwbxx
10-24-2005, 09:17 PM
heresy, show me a controller that can play any rts as well as a keyboard and mouse. Until then stfu IGN
Kelegacy
10-24-2005, 09:21 PM
I love these types of arguements. It makes for great forum reading. It also lets you sort out the morons from the idiots.
In case you were wondering, I'm a former.
XenonCJ
10-24-2005, 09:40 PM
Just like how computer games are superior to console games. They are typically designed for a more mature and intelligent audience. So are the controllers. Ultra-precise mice are also great for CAD, artwork, and precise pick and drop type audio splicing work. This greatness translates to execelent game performace as well.
Game controllers are designed for the lowest common denominator. They have to be usabable by 3 years olds to grandmas. They have to be durable to chunk against the wall by fustrated teenagers. No, the game controller is a clumsy device, only great for specific console games, but never superior to KB and mouse.
I think the real test of "Game Controller vs. KB\Mouse" is not the FPS arena. Try RTS bitches. WarCraft3 "KB\Mouse vs. Game Controller", it would be a joke.
Schnoogs
10-24-2005, 09:54 PM
Just like how computer games are superior to console games. They are typically designed for a more mature and intelligent audience. So are the controllers. Ultra-precise mice are also great for CAD, artwork, and precise pick and drop type audio splicing work. This greatness translates to execelent game performace as well.
Game controllers are designed for the lowest common denominator. They have to be usabable by 3 years olds to grandmas. They have to be durable to chunk against the wall by fustrated teenagers. No, the game controller is a clumsy device, only great for specific console games, but never superior to KB and mouse.
I think the real test of "Game Controller vs. KB\Mouse" is not the FPS arena. Try RTS bitches. WarCraft3 "KB\Mouse vs. Game Controller", it would be a joke.
Amen...I agree.
H.Bogard
10-24-2005, 10:12 PM
Ladies and gentlemen ...I give you....a nail in the coffin.....by XenonCJ! ;)
ldi222
10-24-2005, 11:46 PM
Whether mk is better than gamepad or not is really irrelevant. I mean I can use both to an adaquate degree (or better). For sake of comparison Ive been to both CPL quake 3 and MLG HALO tournaments so Ive witnessed the best of both first hand.
I think the greater point really isnt how the interface is going to work but on what platform going forward are the great games going to be prioritized for and sadly (if that's your perspective) they will be console. I mean even John Carmack on G4 the other day admitted all too quickly their focus was console. Its a no brainer, that's where the money is and that's only going to continue by orders of magnitude. So either you cling to your ports or indy titles or you game with the masses and the best competition online with your gamepad. Your choice really but Ive happily adapted years ago, whether you do or not.. well, you can always justify it on a forum and feel better.
UnderHero5
10-24-2005, 11:52 PM
Ladies and gentlemen ...I give you....a nail in the coffin.....by XenonCJ! ;)
And I give you... the erection in the pants... by UnderHero5
As for my thoughts on the topic... well... IGN are clearly a bunch of morons... however we knew this well before this article was published.
All I know is that I am able to be much more precise, much faster, accurate (wait, I just said precise) and aim better (you son of a bitch I just said precise!!) with a Mouse/Keyboard.
M/KB feels much more natural than a clumbsy controller. Even when I used to play Halo religiously (when it first came out) there's no way I wouldn't have been 10x better with a mouse/keyboard... and I was DAMN good. Oh my god, it was like sex.
Goronmon
10-25-2005, 12:03 AM
Game controllers are designed for the lowest common denominator. They have to be usabable by 3 years olds to grandmas. They have to be durable to chunk against the wall by fustrated teenagers. No, the game controller is a clumsy device, only great for specific console games, but never superior to KB and mouse.
This is a load of crap. I mean, make up your mind. Either gamepads are easy-to-use or clumsy, you can't have it both ways. And if anything was designed to be used by anyone and everyone it is a mouse and keyboard. I mean, the whole point of the creation of the mouse was so that there would be an easier interface device than a keyboard alone. The mouse is the device designed for the lower common denominator. But then again, why is that a bad thing? Is it somehow better for a device to be more complicated and restrictive?
And of course by "only great for specific console games" you must mean any gaming genre besides FPS and RTS. But then again, if you only game on a PC, you would prolly think those are the only types of gaming out there.
I think the real test of "Game Controller vs. KB\Mouse" is not the FPS arena. Try RTS bitches. WarCraft3 "KB\Mouse vs. Game Controller", it would be a joke.
Yes, let's test the only genre where a kb/m have a clear advantage. :rolleyes:
UnderHero5
10-25-2005, 12:07 AM
Whether mk is better than gamepad or not is really irrelevant. I mean I can use both to an adaquate degree (or better). For sake of comparison Ive been to both CPL quake 3 and MLG HALO tournaments so Ive witnessed the best of both first hand.
I think the greater point really isnt how the interface is going to work but on what platform going forward are the great games going to be prioritized for and sadly (if that's your perspective) they will be console. I mean even John Carmack on G4 the other day admitted all too quickly their focus was console. Its a no brainer, that's where the money is and that's only going to continue by orders of magnitude. So either you cling to your ports or indy titles or you game with the masses and the best competition online with your gamepad. Your choice really but Ive happily adapted years ago, whether you do or not.. well, you can always justify it on a forum and feel better.
Meh, people have been saying that for years. Though I must agree with you to some extent. PC gaming has definitely been slowing down a bit... could just be a dry year, I dunno. It's also been seeing more console ports.
We know WHY this is happening (money, duh) as consoles have a much larger user base (compared to PC gamers, not just PC owners).
At any rate, I believe RTS's and FPS's will ALWAYS be developed for PC... along with many RPG's.
I mean really... 90% of the console FPS's are watered down ports of their PC counterparts. That really won't change too much with the new generation.
A year from now PC's will have graphics cards twice as powerful as what's in the 360... it always happens.
I'm perfectly content with RTS, FPS's, and RPG's being all that's developed on PC. Heck, that's almost all that's developed now, and has been for years. It'll keep right up, just as it always has.
You think one day someone's just going to say
Someone:"hey... no more PC games... just.. no... no more. hey Johnson! Did you hear me?"
Johnson: "yes sir"
Someone: "... you stop typing... Johnson you stop typing right now!"
Johnson: "... *stares down at the keyboard, sadly*"
Someone: "That's right Johnson... it's over... *walks out of room*"
Johnson: "*with a devious look, begins typing again*"
Someone: "*busts back into the room, jumps through the air and dropkicks Johnson out of his chair, through the 17th story window*... You son of a bitch Johnson... you made me do it... you died a proud man... arms flailing... screaming all the way down... you dirty fuck, Johnson... you really... ugh... you are a dirty boy... I'll be down to fuck your corpse momentarily"
Johnson: "*hits the ground with a smile*"
Now come on... do you honestly think that's going to happen?!?!
My god people are stupid.
ldi222
10-25-2005, 12:07 AM
Originally Posted by XenonCJ
Game controllers are designed for the lowest common denominator. They have to be usabable by 3 years olds to grandmas.
Youre probably the same guy that would defend revolution because it makes gaming accessable to those that are confused by the complicated gamepads of today.
Now come on... do you honestly think that's going to happen?!?!
No I do not think PC gaming will die but why have they turned into such bitches when it comes to accepting that they are not in the spotlight as the most "leet" anymore.
nonchalance
10-25-2005, 12:19 AM
Youre probably the same guy that would defend revolution because it makes gaming accessable to those that are confused by the complicated gamepads of today.
That's me. Got something to say?
No I do not think PC gaming will die but why have they turned into such bitches when it comes to accepting that they are not in the spotlight as the most "leet" anymore.
yeah, they're the most "leet", you retard. They're just not the most common.
Do you even understand the word?
*Legion*
10-25-2005, 12:24 AM
How is being innaccurate fun? That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
How is fun tied directly to accuracy?
You know, I could be a lot more accurate with a soccer ball if I could pick the damn thing up and throw it. Feet are so un-fun. *rolls eyes*
Phades
10-25-2005, 12:26 AM
Meh, I enjoy playing FPS games more on a console with a gamepad than with a keyboard and mouse on my PC. I enjoy the feel more and like the way they control better. If you disagree, good for you. Enjoy the games the way you prefer and get over the fact that someone else feels different.
UnderHero5
10-25-2005, 12:29 AM
No I do not think PC gaming will die but why have they turned into such bitches when it comes to accepting that they are not in the spotlight as the most "leet" anymore.
Well, that whole thing I typed was mostly a joke. That was more of a rhetorical question, but I've got to ask now.
Are you refering to PC gamers when you say "why have they turned into such bitches".
Because, if my memory serves... we've always been bitches.
And just for the record I own a gaming PC, however I've also been a console gamer since I was about 4 years old (23 now, believe it or not). I happen to like both. As I said, I like my FPS's, RTS's and RPG's (non JRPG's) on PC. I like my consoles for everything else (racing, action, etc).
I must say though... I don't think anyone should be saying a Controller or M/KB are better unless they are WELL VERSED with both. And I don't mean "oh, I'm a PC gamer and I tried Halo before and controllers suck" or "I'm mostly a console gamer but I play X FPS on PC every 6 months and Keyboard sucks".
I've used both for YEARS. Many many years now. I've been playing FPS's on console since Goldeneye/Turok/Duke64, and playing PC FPS's since Half Life 1/Unreal1/Quake2 (didn't have the funds to game on PC until the late 90's)...
No, I'm not trying to prove anything... well, I kind of am. I am trying to prove that I'm BETTER than all of you, but that's besides the point, and I'm only trying to prove that to myself ; )
Seriously though... play both until you are GOOD WITH BOTH and then make a decision. There is definitely a plataue you reach when playing FPS's with a controller. There's a point where you are LIMITED by the analogue stick axis, it's speed, it's small area of movement.
When you are using a mouse, the mouse (if it's not a ball mouse, and it's from this decade) is generally more precise than you need. I play my FPS's with damn low mouse speed (for reference, 2.5 in HL1 and 2)... I also have a 2 foot wide mouse pad... literally. Now I simply can not get the precision I need to do well on a console.
Not to mention I'm a Southpaw player when it comes to console FPS's.
And frankly, until more console FPS developers put in a control scheme for LEFT HANDED PEOPLE they can kiss my ass, and my money goodbye.
If consoles really want to compete with PC's they are going to have to start thinking of NON right handed players! Of course, us left handed people are less common than you righties... but it can't take that much to put in a simple control scheme.
Back in the Turok days... the Goldeneye Days, the Turok 2 days... Duke 64... they introduced us to the console FPS control scheme... I go ahead and play those games... get completely used to, and fluent with the control scheme (LEFT stick aims... right buttons move)... we finally get controllers with 2 sticks... letting devs give us the best of both worlds (right handed and left handed controls) and half the devs don't take advantage of it.
If a console FPS doesn't have a Southpaw console scheme, I simply don't bother with it. And believe me, I've tried getting used to the other way... it feels like writing with me right hand... it's completely backwards and just does not work no matter how many hours I put in with it. Unacceptable I say! GOOD DAY SIR!!
Note: I am not going to proof read this, so please excuse any typos.
Vandenh
10-25-2005, 12:48 AM
Apples and oranges....
It's like saying a hammer is better than a screwdriver.
Like I said before... I play with what i get and don't bitch about it since everybody else that I am playing against is using the same device.
Also remember that most of us here are PC *and* console gamers... so obviously we can easily adapt to both devices for gaming fun.
Frogleg Special
10-25-2005, 01:05 AM
Also remember that most of us here are PC *and* console gamers... so obviously we can easily adapt to both devices for gaming fun.
Nah, most of us here can be described as mostly console gamers or mostly pc gamers. 50/50 is rare (maybe dude like Kelegacy) so don't deny that the majority of us has preferences.
Crabby
10-25-2005, 02:06 AM
I'm staying out of this one. I'm not masochistic.
Which is why I prefer a mouse and keyboard.
Gold. Sheer gold.
Im playing FEAR right now on the PC and loving it but I would have enjoyed it even more if it was on xbox because I would get to use a gamepad. Then I would get rumble feedback, and I wouldnt be looking at my damn keyboard for the shift button to zoom, the ctrl key for bullet time and the damn z button for health packs. Oh, Id also have an analog trigger and another analog button for melee or grenades (instead of finding the G key). As far as being able to aim, yeah gamepads did take some getting used to but believe it or not now I even aim better with them than the damn mouse too!
Technically speaking, if you were any good you wouldn't be looking at anything on your keyboard. Typing included.
Dorfl
10-25-2005, 04:08 AM
How do they manage to hire an entire staff with the same terrible sense of humor? Seriously, they all write shit like this.
Blame the editor.
Someday a trackball type device will find it's way to the consoles, and all the gamepad supporters will jump on the bandwagon and never look back.
Oblivion
10-25-2005, 04:48 AM
I mean, playing games like CS where people can one-shot you from across the map while you are both running around at full speed doesn't exactly lend itself to fun playing.
tried this lately? it IS impossible, when you are moving in CS your aim is way off, especially in looong distances, even with AWP.
Yes, a situation like that is called luck. Which happens no matter what the control scheme is. Not all games play like Quake, most don't anymore.
bapenguin
10-25-2005, 05:34 AM
It's like saying a hammer is better than a screwdriver.
That's actually a VERY good analogy of the situation.
court12b
10-25-2005, 05:43 AM
i dont know about yall, but having hooked a ps2 controller up to my pc for FFXI has kinda got me craving WoW with a Gamepad.
kinda like to see how that would play in pvp, just kick back, hit L1 to charge, hit L2 to hamstring,..hm, on second though, dunno how the hell id get all my abilities on a controler. still would be fun to try though
Borys
10-25-2005, 08:00 AM
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
First, they've put TWO CONSOLE GAMERS against each other and one used a console controller while the other used a KB&M.
Then they played a CONSOLE PORT.
...
...and IGN says Xbox 360 controller is better than mouse?
I mean, wow, NOBODY saw that coming!
a_the_est
10-25-2005, 08:06 AM
Just like how computer games are superior to console games. They are typically designed for a more mature and intelligent audience. So are the controllers. Ultra-precise mice are also great for CAD, artwork, and precise pick and drop type audio splicing work. This greatness translates to execelent game performace as well.
Actually, I work in the audio field, and trackballs are pretty much the universal interface of choice. And the graphics guys and editors all use tablet/pens, which is the norm for CAD/CAM guys as well, if I'm not mistaken. Of course, I would never consider either device for a video game.
Everyone has their preference I suppose. Mouse/kb feels natural to me. And I notice, if you look at pictures of big LAN parties, or the CyberOlympics, you never see people playing Deathmatch with gamepads in their hands...
And I never noticed auto-aim in my FPS's until they started getting ported over from consoles...
So... there's that....
absolut taco
10-25-2005, 09:48 AM
If gamepads are so great for FPS games, then why do all those games feature auto-aim? Nuff said.
Mason
10-25-2005, 10:00 AM
Ugh, since no one will point out the obvious, I will.
Joypad controllers describe relative motion. Holding to the right in Halo tells it, "turn X degrees to the right every second". There's no single motion you can make to have your character turn to precisely the direction you want.
The mouse can easily be used to describe absolute motion. Moving the mouse to the right tell it, "turn X degrees", or "move X pixels", depending on the game genre. This makes the mouse great for some things, like FPS and RTS, but far inferior to the gamepad for many others.
But make no mistake, mathematically the advantage is for the mouse. A player with perfect reflexes on a gamepad still has lag in changing direction, since they can only specify a direction to turn and then wait for it to finally turn in that direction. Perfect reflexes and a sensitive mouse, and you can describe that motion almost instantly.
Dabombpizza
10-25-2005, 10:08 AM
Ugh, since no one will point out the obvious, I will.
You know, we could have used you three pages ago. By the way, nice description.
XenonCJ
10-25-2005, 11:52 AM
This is a load of crap. I mean, make up your mind. Either gamepads are easy-to-use or clumsy, you can't have it both ways. And if anything was designed to be used by anyone and everyone it is a mouse and keyboard. I mean, the whole point of the creation of the mouse was so that there would be an easier interface device than a keyboard alone. The mouse is the device designed for the lower common denominator. But then again, why is that a bad thing? Is it somehow better for a device to be more complicated and restrictive?
And of course by "only great for specific console games" you must mean any gaming genre besides FPS and RTS. But then again, if you only game on a PC, you would prolly think those are the only types of gaming out there.
Yes, let's test the only genre where a kb/m have a clear advantage. :rolleyes:That's just it, there is no genre where the game controller has a clear advantage 100% of the time.
Sports and fighting games.
Xerxes
10-25-2005, 12:33 PM
It's all different strokes for different folks.
crackeriah
10-25-2005, 01:54 PM
Ugh, since no one will point out the obvious, I will.
LOL, when I saw this thread earlier I wanted to post this, but didn't get around to it until now...only to find someone else had done it just before me!
The way it was described in my Human Factors Engineering course was "first order" and "second order" control, referring to the calculus of motion. With a mouse you are controlling the velocity of movement, with a joystick you are controlling acceleration. The result is that in an FPS with a mouse you can change your view with the entire range of velocities your wrist is capable of, whereas with a joystick you have to wait for the acceleration to reach the desired velocity.
What's interesting is that the "precision" is just as good in both, but quick perspective changes are much faster with a mouse.
Dr.Acula
10-25-2005, 01:56 PM
If a controller user can beat a mouse user in a Quake, I'd be impressed. Try strafe-jumping, rocket-jumping, or landing a rail as both you and your opponent are flying through the air with an x-box controller...
Dr.Acula
10-25-2005, 02:00 PM
How is fun tied directly to accuracy?
You know, I could be a lot more accurate with a soccer ball if I could pick the damn thing up and throw it. Feet are so un-fun. *rolls eyes*
If you watch a soccer game, passes from foot to foot are usually crisper than the hand passes from the sidelines :D
Xerxes
10-25-2005, 02:09 PM
I don't like that aurgument of not being able to whip your veiw around 180 degree faster with mouse. While true, not all games are glitch games and not everyone wants to do that. You can't spin your fucking head around that fast so why the fuck can your character.
absolut taco
10-25-2005, 02:32 PM
I don't like that aurgument of not being able to whip your veiw around 180 degree faster with mouse. While true, not all games are glitch games and not everyone wants to do that. You can't spin your fucking head around that fast so why the fuck can your character.
Because in the game world you fucking die if you don't spin your head around fast enough. If you want your game character to not be able to do anything that you can't do in real life, have fun. I don't mind a bit of less realism to increase fun & decrease frustration.
Xerxes
10-25-2005, 02:36 PM
Halo doesn't have that issue. Not incrediable turn rate or millions of deaths cause you couldn't turn around. It's not that bad.
Yes. Halo and ilk are designed around a flaw and as such they hide it better. If you plugged a mouse into a console and played the same game they'd be real boring.
Xerxes
10-25-2005, 03:21 PM
Real boring for those who like glitchy fps. Seems like not having any constraints would be the flaw.
There is a happy medium between a glitchy FPS like Quake and a console FPS.
SH996
10-25-2005, 04:26 PM
OK, I joined just for this "debate". Here's some data:
Imaging my middle finger on the "H" key one can see that my left hand has access to 5 keys without moving my fingers from this base position (H,J,G,F, and the Right Alt - thumb). Add the 3 buttons on my mouse and I have a total of 8 keys readiliy available.
Now If I add the row above and below the mentioned keys (reaching up or down with each finger) I add 8 more keys for a total of 16 keys with minimal hand movement.
Now I add the keys in a one key radius around these keys adding 8 more keys for a total 24 keys. This is only counting a 3 button mouse.
Using F.E.A.R as an example I will share the Jamester keypad. It centers around the "H" key (Home).
H=middle finger: Forward
Y=middle finger: Backwards
J=1st finger: Strafe Right
U=1st finger: Lean Right
I=1st finger: Flashlight
K=1st finger: Use
G=3rd finger: Strafe Left
T=3rd finger: Lean Left
F=4th finger: Walk
R=4th finger: Reload
D=4th finger: Zoom
Alt=Thumb: Crouch
Space=Thumb: Jump
Mouse1: Attack
Mouse2: Attack2
Mouse 3: Grenade
Mouse Wheel: Choose Weapon
I have access to all of these buttons without having to move my hand or look at my keyboard. I also can push several buttons at the same time so I can lean in a direction while walking and firing, or reloading, or zooming, or changing weapons or other combinations. I am not a good typist either.
Also note that H is forward while Y is backwards - which is the opposite of the typical "WSAD" setup. I figure I spend most the time going forwards so putting the key inline with rest keeps my fingers and hand more relaxed and less tired, especially my middle finger - so I can flip-off losers who think a gamepad is better at first person shooters than a mouse or a keyboard.
XenonCJ
10-25-2005, 04:51 PM
Sports and fighting games.Hardly. I remember back in college, playing on computer - Keyboard vs. my friend with a gamepad, playing Mortal Kombat. It was quite competitive, not a clear advantage one way or the other.
In the fighting game genre I'd probably go for the joystick 1st, but someone on a keyboard wouldn't get owned as badly by a controller the way someone would in say Age of Empires 3...
Xerxes
10-25-2005, 04:58 PM
That was mortal kombat... What about a more fast paced 3d fighter...
Taco what's this "happy medium"
CS, FEAR, Half-Life. Anything with a decent amount of recoil and a non insane rate of fire with an emphasis on tactical movement. Very few games are 100% dependant on your ability to move your crosshair to a skull and holding the trigger until dead. That went out of style a good 3-4 years ago.
Crabby
10-25-2005, 06:09 PM
i dont know about yall, but having hooked a ps2 controller up to my pc for FFXI has kinda got me craving WoW with a Gamepad.
kinda like to see how that would play in pvp, just kick back, hit L1 to charge, hit L2 to hamstring,..hm, on second though, dunno how the hell id get all my abilities on a controler. still would be fun to try though
Sorry man, but your example is invalid due to the fact that FFXI was developed from the ground-up to work seamlessly with gamepads as it was meant for the PS2 from the inception.
Everything from the interface design, navigation, and hotkeys in FFXI were created with gamepad ease-of-use as the priority. Playing the game sans a gamepad, one can easily observe all the areas affected by this.
Playing WoW, you may be able to hotkey eight functions, counting auto-attack, or the left and right mouse buttons. Not even the size of the first hotkeybar.
sol740
10-25-2005, 06:40 PM
I love my gamepad but I'd be lying if I said it was more precise than a M&K setup. That said I prefer playing console FPS's with the pad, I prefer the button setup and moving my character with the stick compared to WSAD setup. THAT BEING SAID ... I will prefer playing an FPS with the Revolution controller if they get it right. A thumbstick in one hand with a couple buttons like a trigger, and precise 3-d control of the weapon. Whoops ... got a little hard there ...
H.Bogard
10-26-2005, 09:00 AM
And I give you... the erection in the pants... by UnderHero5
poof....you're flaccid
Yes, let's test the only genre where a kb/m have a clear advantage.
Begin countdown
max payne
half life
95% of all rpg's
adventure games
rts
mmo
and last , but not least....my personal favourite....forum bashing. :p
Xerxes
10-26-2005, 09:29 AM
It depends on if you are a console or pc gamer. You use to what you use to.
Pantsmonkey
10-27-2005, 12:48 AM
http://files.nrupdates.qj.net/cgi-bin/cfiles.cgi?0,0,0,0,1,36
has everyone seen that video?
A guy named Tsietisin from rllmukforums has created his own version of a Nintendo Revolution controller using a Gyration Ultra mouse, ASCII Grip one handed PS1 controller, and a PSX to PC USB converter. He has created a video of him playing Half-Life 2: Deathmatch.
Sweet Jesus that looks playable and its a hack...
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.