[New Feature] Introducing EvAv's Weekend Homework

[fitbabits]

Weekends are traditionally slow around EvAv, what with people actually doing something outdoors, etc. on weekends (it's shocking, I know), so I've decided to do a trial run with something I've been thinking about - weekend 'homework' sessions. Designed as a means to encourage open and honest discussion and debate, I'll wait to see how this one goes before deciding on whether to adopt it as a regular feature.

Anyway, on with this weekend's homework topic: third party Wii support - how long can it continue?

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It's no secret that the Wii is this generation's leader, at least in terms of sales. However, the stupendous console sales don't always translate to strong software sales, especially where third party titles are concerned.

The most recent, and perhaps most eye popping, example of this trend is EA Sports' Madden NFL 09 All Play for the Wii, which sold even less than the PlayStation 2 version of the same game. And it's not because the game was poorly received, either - it currently has an average score of 82% on Metacritic (http://www.metacritic.org/games/platforms/wii/maddennfl09).

As intimated earlier, Madden is not the first example of this worrying trend. Ubisoft's No More Heroes, Capcom's Okami, and EA's own Boom Blox suffered similarly at retail, again despite impressive averages of 83% (http://www.metacritic.org/games/platforms/wii/nomoreheroes), 90% (http://www.metacritic.org/games/platforms/wii/okami), and 85% (http://www.metacritic.org/games/platforms/wii/boomblox) respectively.

So what's the deal? Why do third party titles on Wii suffer while first party titles like Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Super Mario Galaxy set the charts alight?

According to Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20209), Cowen Group analyst Doug Creutz maintains that the Wii is an "inhospitable" platform for third party publishers. Whether or not you agree with Mr. Creutz's assessment is debatable, but there's clearly something awry.

This raises the obvious question, and also this weekend's homework question - How long will third party publishers continue to support a platform that's doing very little for them in return?

[Trickyicky]

I find this pretty strange. Has Nintendo had one major release since Brawl? And still only a few 3rd party titles are selling a lot.

[Dr.Finger]

Don't forget WiiFit. It may not have been a major release for gamers like us, but it was a huge deal at retail.

As for the question, they'll continue to crank out Wii games so long as the system is selling as well as it does. However, I think you'll see a decrease in quality going forward. They can't abandon it - there are just too many consoles out there to completely bail on it - but they can put fewer resources towards the games. So you'll get fewer Boom Blox and more shovelware.

[fitbabits]

Don't forget WiiFit. It may not have been a major release for gamers like us, but it was a huge deal at retail.

As for the question, they'll continue to crank out Wii games so long as the system is selling as well as it does. However, I think you'll see a decrease in quality going forward. They can't abandon it - there are just too many consoles out there to completely bail on it - but they can put fewer resources towards the games. So you'll get fewer Boom Blox and more shovelware.

It's going to be like throwing a bowl of pasta at a wall - some of it sticks, some of it falls to the ground and makes a mess.

[Albinobees]

I personally feel that as long as Wii consoles continue to sell and as long as nintendo continues to sell a million copies of their own games, 3rd parties company are going to find it hard to resist making games for the Wii.

Compare it to something like the MMO market. World of Warcraft dominates yet every company and their brother continues to make MMOs because they see all the money being made and cant help but to hope that they can get piece of that pie for themselves.

of course i could be wrong and maybe all 3rd party support will dwindle soon enough...

[Spigot]

Nintendo had Mario Kart Wii after Brawl, but that's about the only major release that I can think of from Nintendo.

I think it's a hard thing for the 3rd party publishers/developers to deal with. On the one hand, you have a console that 3 gazillion people seem to have in their home. That's a huge install base.

On the other hand, only a fraction of those 3 gazillion people seem to want to buy things that don't have Mario's face stamped on it.

I think that there are a large amount of people who have a Wii and don't own a single game aside from Wii Sports. Not necessarily among those of us who surf here and so forth, but the great unwashed masses certainly would be like this.

I do hope that there are more games from third party publishers. I think that I actually have more 3rd party games for the Wii than I do from Nintendo, but my Wii collection is also laughably tiny.

[Norse]

Well, I guess developing titles for Wii is cheap as hell and publishers doesn't have any problems publishing whatever crap they can think of. They're probably recouping the development cost already at 50,000 units or so for most titles and porting it over it over to the PS2 is probably no problem. The install base is pretty big now, so they're probably confident it will sell enough no matter what it is.

[Heretic Machine]

The reason that even good third-party titles on the Wii don't sell well is pretty simple: Many people who use the Wii as their main platform don't have very large gaming budgets. That's probably a big part of the reason they got the Wii to begin with. Of course they're not going to be able to buy as many games as, say, a person with a 360. Many are also probably big Nintendo fans, and thus they go after Nintendo games first, and third parties second. Finally, most third party games on the Wii fit into the following categories:

1) Lame-ass next-gen port.
2) Lame-ass last-gen port.
3) Shovelware.

There are only a handful of high quality, original titles on the Wii. At least one of them, No More Heroes, probably wouldn't have sold well on any console. Zack & Wiki had no marketing campaign that I can remember (but I still own a copy), and Boom Blox is simply overpriced for what it is.

I think there is also a distinct value vs price gap that keeps most hardcore players from buying many games on the Wii. If I'm in a game store looking for a new purchase, but I'm not sure what, I'll look at all my options. I have a PS2, Wii, DS, 360, and PC. I'll only walk out with one game in my hand, so I want the best bang-for-my-buck. If it comes down to the Wii versus the 360 and PC, I have to ask myself: Wouldn't I rather buy a game on a platform with good online play and better graphics? They're basically the same price; it isn't like I can buy a Wii game for half the price of a 360 game. There is a ten dollar difference, which is never going to be the deciding factor. If Wii games were $30 instead of $50, things might be different; I could buy two Wii games for the price of one 360 game. That'd certainly make me think twice before sinking $60 on one game.

[Karmakin]

They won't stop. Why? Because the beancounters tell them to.

Now, support them with the quality that's needed...I don't think that's going to happen any time soon. It's actually pretty simple. The games don't scale like these sorts of games need to. The games that attract more casual players, keep them engrossed in it so that over time they play at higher and higher levels.

There are games out there that DO scale. The two biggies are Rock Band/Guitar Hero, and World of Warcraft. The difficulty scales at a pretty comfortable pace.

For RB/GH, you start at easy. Which is...easy. Three buttons, easy to play. Go up to medium, it's more involved, same with Hard, and so on. You can stop when it will go over your comfort level, but at the same time, the game is designed in such a way that's pretty easy.

In WoW, it's much the same thing. From leveling/instancing/raiding, or World PvP/Battlegrounds/Arenas the game scales in difficulty in such a way to make progress comfortable and rewarding.

That's what the Wii is lacking IMO. Games that are easy enough at first for everybody to play, but provides tangible, and long-lasting rewards for improving your skill.

[Purple Santa]

Does anyone have the sales figures for Madden, Bloom Blox, Okami and No More Heroes?

Edit: I love the idea for Weekend Homework. Another reason it's so quiet around here...we finally get a chance to finally PLAY our games :)

[rinichanraar]

While the Wii isn't really "inhospitable" in the case of games like Okami where motion sensitivity is kind of key, I kind of have to agree with him when it comes to most other games. The controller just isn't the best thing in the world for certain types of games. Furthermore, the Wii just kind of screams out "casual gamer," (or "party gamer"?) and not all "casual gamers" are going to run out and buy as many single player games. And if a Wii-owner isn't "casual," he or she probably owns another console and would prefer to get it on something that supports better graphics and has more comfortable controls.

This isn't that related, but I walked through the Wii aisle at Best Buy the other day, and 75 percent of the third-party titles were games I'd never even think of buying, ever. There are just way too many lame, gimmicky Wii games out there.

[Blade]

If you build it, they will come.

It has not been built.

A good example would be Resident Evil 5. Resident Evil 4 was a GameCube game; the Wii is approximately twice as fast as a GameCube.

If the time was taken to do a complete port of RE5 running on an enhanced RE4 engine... :)

But no. Instead we get Umbrella Chronicles, revisiting the older titles in the series yet again. Not a bad game, but you see.

The Wii's hardware is the sticking point, not the competition from Nintendo's own games.

[Kelegacy]

the Wii is approximately twice as fast as a GameCube.


I don't think that's true.

On topic, I got rid of my Wii because it just failed to perform as a decent gaming platform for me. And I enjoyed the Gamecube (and every other Nintendo console ever released). The 1st party games are fun and all, but I can't help feeling I've done all this before. Another Zelda, another Mario (albeit fun), another Metroid, another Mario Kart and Smash Brothers...I want and need new IPs from Nintendo other than the Wii Sports/Wii Play/Wii Fit/Wii Music casual fluff, especially if third party support is going to be so atrocious.

Additionally, for all the talk about the Wii being revolutionary...I find it anything but. Shaking the controller to attack enemies in Zelda is NOT revolutionary. In fact, I found it rather annoying. It's probably a good thing they went with the Wii as a name instead of Revolution.

I wish the failed third party games like No More Heroes and Boom Blox would come to the 360 or PS3 (with a slight resolution increase a la Bully). Then those company's can recoup some of their losses and I bet many more people would buy the title than did on the Wii. Not all games on the 360 or PS3 need to look cutting edge or have tremendous budgets. Bring those third party Wii failures over here! We want you!

The Wii is the biggest console disappointment in my 20+ years of gaming, starting all the way back on the Colecovision and Atari 2600. The fact that it's the best selling console this generation is surprising, though it's not really us who is buying the system, but our non-gaming coworkers, girlfriends, parents, soccer moms and grannies. I guess that's a good thing, though I don't think I can ever look at Nintendo quite the same way again. After losing two console generations in a row, they needed to do something to mix it up. It's a winning decision for them, but not exactly one for we "core" gamers.

[Evil Avatar]

Nintendo had Mario Kart Wii after Brawl, but that's about the only major release that I can think of from Nintendo.



Emphasised that for you. I would say that between Brawl, Kart and Fit that Nintendo has already published more AAA titles than 80% of the people who own a Wii will ever purchase. This is the curse of both the casual gamer and the Nintendo fanboy -- Yes, Nintendo got them to purchase the hardware, but they don't purchase many titles (casual gamer) or they only purchase the standard franchise titles (Nintendo fanboys).

Neither one is good for 3rd party companies. This is what led to the eventual downfall of the Gamecube despite it being what... the cheapest console of that generation just as the Wii is (was) the cheapest console of this generation.

I think this will be the exact same situation as the Gamecube. Nintendo will continue to move hardware without moving software until the 3rd party support drops so low that the system eventually burns itself out and dies off -- which will happen just in time for Nintendo to release a new console.

Say it with me... Nintendo is a TOY company. They make most of their money from the sale of the hardware. They don't care about 3rd party support and reallly don't even need it. By the time the sales of the Wii start to drift off, Nintendo will have their next system ready to roll out and that system will probably be just like the Wii -- half the power of whatever Sony and Microsoft have on the shelf and at half the cost.

The really interesting numbers are the fact that Sony's PSP is finally starting to gain some ground on the DS. What caused that I wonder?

I think 3rd party companies are going to get burned. Like fits said, some of the spagettii will stick to the wall, but most if it will just make a mess.

[RMan]

It's no secret that the Wii is this generation's leader, at least in terms of sales. However, the stupendous console sales don't always translate to strong software sales, especially where third party titles are concerned.
I must have missed that generation where the leading console seller didn't ultimately have the strongest 3rd party support, when was that again?
As intimated earlier, Madden is not the first example of this worrying trend. Ubisoft's No More Heroes, Capcom's Okami, and EA's own Boom Blox suffered similarly at retail, again despite impressive averages of 83% (http://www.metacritic.org/games/platforms/wii/nomoreheroes), 90% (http://www.metacritic.org/games/platforms/wii/okami), and 85% (http://www.metacritic.org/games/platforms/wii/boomblox) respectively.
Welcome to the world, a harsh place where success is not easily predicted, and the quality of a product is far from the only factor in it’s success. Also, welcome to an entertainment industry, where this is much worse. Good games fail, this is nothing new, and the reasons for these failures are the same as similar failures in the past on any platform. Madden is a traditional game, the players buying it seldom only have a Wii as their next-gen system. NMH was a quirky game with new IP geared for the hardcore, and not highly marketed, the history of this industry is littered with such failures. Okami didn’t tear up the charts on the PS2, and in terms of ratio, has sold FAR better on the Wii despite being a re-release, thus does not support your point. Boomblox was a good game, with good marketing, but was still a fairly quirky game that was horribly overpriced, and frankly, geared much more to the hardcore than enthusiasts seem to understand. Boomblox will likely be a financial success, despite the continuous assumption it is not, the game doesn’t seem to have that much money in it.
This raises the obvious question, and also this weekend's homework question - How long will third party publishers continue to support a platform that's doing very little for them in return?
Please post the comments from publishers complaining about their 3rd party sales on the Wii. I’ve seen a lot complain that they failed to properly support the Wii, and thus didn’t have much going for it, but that’s hardly the Wii’s failing, or a complaint about it.

The assumption that great 1st party sales means poor 3rd party profits is faulty, in the extreme. I have never seen any evidence, however, that this statement about Wii’s 3rd party games is based on anything other than this silly assumption. Prove me wrong, it’d be refreshing to see negative Wii information based on actual evidence (not holding my breath).

[Lutheran]

I think you will see in the end that a lot of these so called failed titles like Bloom Blox and No More Heroes are considered successful by their publishers. Both titles right now are hovering around 500,000 copies sold and they will sell slowly for the next few years. I am sure its pretty cheap to make games for the Wii though I am not positive but compared to the other systems it should be.

I swear I remember reading somewhere that the attach rate for the Wii is not that far behind the 360 and ahead of the PS3 so thats not bad for a system that is clearly a 2nd system for most real gamers. And those numbers were without Will Play being factored in or something like that..damn let me check google. BTW , I love the Wii but can't help but be disappointed in the way things have developed as far as the lack of AAA titles or good online play etc. I expected more from this system. I should say from the people making games for this console , its not the Wiis fault entirely.

[RMan]

This is what led to the eventual downfall of the Gamecube despite it being what... the cheapest console of that generation just as the Wii is (was) the cheapest console of this generation.
Downfall? When was it high enough to fall? The GC’s failure was because of the N64’s failure, and the PS1/PS2’s success.
I think this will be the exact same situation as the Gamecube. Nintendo will continue to move hardware without moving software until the 3rd party support drops so low that the system eventually burns itself out and dies off -- which will happen just in time for Nintendo to release a new console.
Hehe, so many baseless assumptions, cracks me up. GC never had anything resembling a lead on the PS2, I’m not sure how anyone can make market parallels between the two and just completely ignore the Wii’s performance in that market. And Wii software sales look just fine, unless you listen to only MS news (I’d recommend not using O’Riley or Bill Marr for your world news either, if you want anything resembling balanced information).
Say it with me... Nintendo is a TOY company. They make most of their money from the sale of the hardware.
So virtually every product I buy is a toy? Nintendo understood how little the public cared about the tech cost, and for that understanding of the market, they are somehow not in that market? You think MS and Sony don’t want to sell their systems at a profit?
They don't care about 3rd party support and reallly don't even need it.
Yea, so many companies out there choose only to make the money they need, that’s how things work. MS only makes money they need. You’re actually saying that Nintendo doesn’t value money coming in from 3rd parties, do you think they find it smelly, scary, what?
The really interesting numbers are the fact that Sony's PSP is finally starting to gain some ground on the DS. What caused that I wonder?
Well, not so much gaining ground as not losing it as fast as it was, but yea, the PSP is definitely getting more attractive.
I think 3rd party companies are going to get burned. Like fits said, some of the spagettii will stick to the wall, but most if it will just make a mess.
Yea, I’m sure this will continue to be a widely held assumption among superfans.

[Chris_D]

Most of the new casual gamers buying Wiis are perfectly content with the Wii as a Wii Sports machine, buying just Wii Play to get their second Wiimote. They may also buy something like Wii Fit (they heard about it on NPR, or midday TV), which doesn't seem like a game but a lifestyle tool.

As for the Nintendo fans who bought the Wii, they have a poor record of supporting 3rd parties on previous Nintendo consoles, and the Wii seems no different this time round.

[DarkDaY]

Its sold as a non gamer machine, its selling very well to non gamers. None gamers buy one or 2 games, and are mainly buying it for wii sports.
(I know its a bit extreme but theres a lot of truth to is)

It has been so obvious for so long, I don't really see whats so confusing about it.

[mightbe]

I'm going to say that I think it's the price point of the games that's keeping people from buying them.

I think Boom Blox would have wrecked face at < $30USD MSRP.

If it had a marketing campaign to go with it, that is.

Many people who bought a Wii bought a few games with it and picked up whatever looked decent from the shelf. And most of it was crap. So they're not going to shell out $50 for more crap.

[TeeCakes]

3rd parties that aren't successful have forgotten what brought Wii-owners to the game-- good casual gameplay. Titles like Madden '09 and well-reviewed sleepers like Spielberg's BoomBlox won't ever outpace games like Mario Kart Wii or Smash Brawl. A unique combination of "kid friendly", cheaper-than-HD-consoles, "cool" motion control, and it being the hot-new fad (yet avoiding the negative stigma of being a "hardcore gamer nerd" on XBL voicechat 24/7) makes the Wii a success in hardware figures.

This same unique combination applied to software figures shows that the best any 3rd party can ever shoot for is 9th place in the release month on the NPD.

Parents nowadays get their kids a "Nintendo" for special occasions plus ~3 games, and so they first pick anything with Mario's face on it and chuck it in the shopping cart. Then next maybe they'd pick something with decent marketing attached, something they've heard of ("Madden"). Then last, and only if they were REALLY good parents, they might even get the exact game kids ask for ("Umbrella Chronicles", "Boom Blox", anything else with decent reviews).

After that, the kid/new console gamer/parent will rent new Wii games from Blockbuster (Why buy casual games you can beat in 2-3 hours... okay... 2-3 "days"?) Only ever actually purchasing the 'must-haves'-- aka, 1st party Nintendo titles like Mario Kart Wii and Smash Brawl. Or figure we're talking about a non-casual gamer with their own independent finances. Sure, they'll be the ones picking up Okami and NMH, but they'd almost always have those 1st party titles before anything else, too.

3rd parties working with the Wii have too much of a reason to go the shovelware route, since it seems that people will buy those games just as often as the decent 3rd party offerings. Kind of like a catch-22. I think it's really hard to shake the mentality of being an inferior product if it's not made by Nintendo-- this isn't something that the NES had a problem with when it was the "Nintendo" of it's day. Remember, the most popular games most identified with the NES back then were Contra (Konami), Double Dragon (Technos), Battletoads (Rare), Megaman (Capcom), Tecmo Bowl (Tecmo), Bad Dudes (Data East), Bubble Bobbles (Taito)... and then there were those Super Mary-O titles that people like me were able to beat in 5 minutes. Climate ain't as 3rd-party-friendly these days when the cost of game-making/marketing/licensing is exponentially higher.

[Rash]

No More Heroes actually sold above expectations. Well, in the UK and here in the states, anyway.

Boom Blox had zero advertising and there's was no marketing involving Steven Spielberg's name. That's just a missed opportunity, period. A mistake on the third party in question.

Okami didn't sell too great on either the PS2 or Wii. There just isn't really a big market for that kind of game. Yeah, it's a Zelda-like title, but Capcom obviously didn't try to make that too obvious. There are many people who don't even know what the game's about.

Zack $ Wiki, another Capcom gem for Wii, sold abysmally as well, regardless of the efforts of some (including the IGN team) to get the word out. You know why? No marketing.

Games don't sell on Wii unless they have a name for themselves (anything Nintendo, Resident Evil, Guitar Hero, etc.), and the only way for a game to make a name for itself is for people to actually know about that game. The only buyers who know about these games are the Wii owners like us who are actually persistent in finding games to play on the system. As far as everyone else, it's just a matter of getting their attention in different ways.

I think third parties' missing success on Wii is as much their own fault as it is the consumers'.

[CapnBob]

As intimated earlier, Madden is not the first example of this worrying trend. Ubisoft's No More Heroes, Capcom's Okami, and EA's own Boom Blox suffered similarly at retail, again despite impressive averages of 83% (http://www.metacritic.org/games/platforms/wii/nomoreheroes), 90% (http://www.metacritic.org/games/platforms/wii/okami), and 85% (http://www.metacritic.org/games/platforms/wii/boomblox) respectively.

Spend more than a few minutes in any gaming store and the actual reasons for these sales become apparent.

Madden: Looks like crap, and the average gamer or casual gamer is too dumb to figure out the extremely simple controls. I've seen this happen a dozen times a day with demo units. They don't even get to the good points of the title, such as the call-your-shots mode, so to your average football gamer it's a harder-to-play and uglier version of the 360 game.

No More Heroes: Nobody Knows About It. Even then, it's kind of a niche title at best. It'll click with certain hardcore gamers and not at all with anyone else.

Okami: Already played on PS2, and most people looking for a Zelda game just buy Zelda.

Boom Blox: Have you seen the cover art? Nobody even looks at it. Put it in a demo unit where they could play it, and people would buy it.

Compare these with Guitar Hero 3 sales, and you'll notice a huge difference. It's not a hard formula to sell games on the Wii:

#1: Put a little thought and effort into making a game that uses the controller well and doesn't suck. It doesn't cost a lot to do this, you just have to care a little about making a fun game and think about the interface before any other aspect of the game. The pointer's pretty easy to use and very useful, and the accelerometers can be ok if you just use them for tilting or swinging in one of four directions. If you're just making people shake the controller constantly instead of pressing a button, you fail. If you're trying to do complex multi-step pantomimes without the motionplus add-on, you're probably going to fail there too.

#2: Don't go out of your way to make the graphics look like crap. You probably have a better graphics engine leftover from the gamecube days, so there's really no excuse to make new games like NCAA 09 look like ports from the N64. Stop it right now, you fucking idiots.

#3: Make sure people know about your game. Ads, print ads, videogame sites, viral campaigns, whatever. If they've never heard of it, they probably aren't going to buy it. At the very least, don't let your learning-disabled cousin crap out a cartoon doodle for the cover art, or it's going to get ignored by the casual gamers as well as the serious ones.

#4: MAKE A DEMO AVAILABLE IN STORES. If you've done steps 1 and 2 properly and shoot Wal-Mart or Gamestop a little cash to leave the disc in their demo units for a couple weeks, people will try it out and they'll probably want to buy it. If you HAVEN'T done steps 1 and 2 properly, Madden 09 will sit on the shelf with it's big ugly "ALL-PLAY" logo forever, unwanted and unloved.

And that's it. None of that SOUNDS too hard, but unfortunately the decision to act on those four steps probably rests with the publisher in most cases rather than the developers. So they'll probably keep shooting themselves in the foot game after game and point the finger at the system or Nintendo's first-party titles every time sales don't match expectations.

[Adam Blue]

I think this has already been said, but the Wii is being looked past by gamers when a console purchase is made. The Wii is a long lasting Tickle Me Elmo. As long as there's that initial buzz and a constant shortage, it will sell.

Would it continue to sell without the shortages? Or is it simply just selling out? Either way, it's creating its own niche that will be separate from the normal gaming market in generations to come.

[Opty]

Selling half a million games isn't a failure in my eyes. Unfortunately the gaming media has decided sub million sales = failure. Of course, if you sell 500k of a game that costs 25% of a game on the 360/PS3 that sells 1 million to make, the person selling less copies wins in the money-making department which is all that really matters.

[fitbabits]

Selling half a million games isn't a failure in my eyes. Unfortunately the gaming media has decided sub million sales = failure. Of course, if you sell 500k of a game that costs 25% of a game on the 360/PS3 that sells 1 million to make, the person selling less copies wins in the money-making department which is all that really matters.

Selling half a million to an installed user base of ~18 million could be considered a failure.

[H.Bogard]

It's going to be like throwing a bowl of pasta at a wall - some of it sticks, some of it falls to the ground and makes a mess.

As opposed to the mess stuck on your wall? :confused:

[Darcydian]

Despite being hard to develope for, it's not very powerful in comparison to it's competiton graphics/processor wise.
Unfortunately for us, most developers' PR department have very little to sell their games on except "MIND BLOWING GRAPICS" and "INSANE PHYSICS EXPLODER PEICES!"
Which the Wii doesn't do very well. We'll get some gems eventually......I hope

[Heretic Machine]

Nintendo is a TOY company.

Video games are super serious business people. We can't have people like Nintendo trying to bring fun into the equation. Let's all go back to our grimdark shooters on the 360 and talk about how much we love guns.

Selling half a million to an installed user base of ~18 million could be considered a failure.

How many DVDs must one sell to succeed, taking into account the install base of DVD players and DVD-capable devices?

[Justin_Bailey]

A few important facts must be brought into this discussion...


EA is thrilled with the sales of Boom Blox
No More Heroes sold more than any other game developed by Suda 51.
The Wii version of Okami sold almost 300,000 copies, a decent number for such a niche game

They may not have sold as much as Mario Galaxy or Mario Kart or Guitar Hero III but few games on any system sell as much as those games. Third parties on the Wii are doing fine and I imagine a bright future for them.

[bapenguin]

This is what happens when 50% of your market ends up being people who purchase one game the entire lifecycle of the console.

[RMan]

Selling half a million to an installed user base of ~18 million could be considered a failure.
And a shotgun could be considered a can opener, but I don't ponder the question of why people are opening cans with shotguns, or when they might stop. There isn't a game type in existence that can't be a huge success at 500K copies, those that fail to profit with sales like that have simply raised their costs too high, their problem for lacking judgment.

[Karamazov]

I agree with Evil. Nintendo may not be a toy company but the Wii is certainly a toy.

[Steele Johnson]

The way I see a Nintendo system is that you buy it for the Nintendo games like Zelda, Mario, and games that have that "certain style". I didn't buy a Wii to play games like Madden or running around shooting in a first person view. The reason certain triple-A games don't do very well on that system is because the game doesn't actually suit the system. If 3rd party developers want to make money on that system, they need to make games for it. In other words, cross-platform games do not apply because Nintendo is not in the same market as the PC, the 360, or the PS3. They have their own niche and you need to adapt to it and create game accordingly.

[DarkDaY]

I agree with Evil. Nintendo may not be a toy company but the Wii is certainly a toy.

Its a toy that my mom and here friends love, she just bought wii fitness. After a year and a bit, she owns wii sports, tiger golf and wii fitness.
Too many games for her she figures but still has her friends over weekly.

[Zecon]

Video games are super serious business people. We can't have people like Nintendo trying to bring fun into the equation. Let's all go back to our grimdark shooters on the 360 and talk about how much we love guns.



How many DVDs must one sell to succeed, taking into account the install base of DVD players and DVD-capable devices?
Why is it that the xbox360 is considered a generic shooters console when it has the widest range of games on any console so far this gen? it has the most RPGs, too. Personally I can say i have played only a handful of shooters in comparison to all the RPG's and 3rd person action games I have played. Just because thats all you care to pay attention to, does not mean thats all there is.
And as far as the Wii is concerned, I have one myself, but it mostly collects dust due to the games being so gimmicky that they get to be rather monotonous and dull after a while. Even SMG failed to keep my attention after the first few galaxies. If I have to choose a multiplatform title between the Wii and my 360, it will always be my 360, simply due to the graphics and superior online capabilities. As far as any other 3rd party titles, I'm just too busy playing the 3rd party games on my 360 to even care.
Nintendo has to realize that their target audience of causal gamers are more often than not just renting games, where with the Xbox360/PS3's hardcore audience is dedicated to making gaming a part of their lifestyle, so they are buying games more often than renting them.

[Major Dan]

I think you can't only look at the top 10 software titles every month to see how 3rd party is doing on the Wii. Wii games tend to have much longer tails then 360 or PS3 games. By tail, I mean they sell for more months before they dry up, unlike many 360 or PS3 games. Having said that some 3rd parties may give up, some smaller ones, but there will always be 3rd party support for the Wii. 1) Because it is cheaper to develop for, so you have less to lose 2) The giant install base will be very attractive and possibly 3) The huge success of the DS, if a developer can cross a game with the DS and the Wii, they could have a huge seller on their hands. Think about a game you play on the Wii and then can take your character etc, with you on the DS. Actually 3) is more of the unthought of reason, but I think my example could be very powerful. So to sum it up, I don't think the Wii will ever lose 3rd party support, they may lose the "hardcore" developers but "softcore"....err casual developers will flourish, furthering the divide between the HD consoles and the Wii!

[Major Dan]

Why is it that the xbox360 is considered a generic shooters console when it has the widest range of games on any console so far this gen? it has the most RPGs, too. Personally I can say i have played only a handful of shooters in comparison to all the RPG's and 3rd person action games I have played. Just because thats all you care to pay attention to, does not mean thats all there is.
And as far as the Wii is concerned, I have one myself, but it mostly collects dust due to the games being so gimmicky that they get to be rather monotonous and dull after a while. Even SMG failed to keep my attention after the first few galaxies. If I have to choose a multiplatform title between the Wii and my 360, it will always be my 360, simply due to the graphics and superior online capabilities. As far as any other 3rd party titles, I'm just too busy playing the 3rd party games on my 360 to even care.
Nintendo has to realize that their target audience of causal gamers are more often than not just renting games, where with the Xbox360/PS3's hardcore audience is dedicated to making gaming a part of their lifestyle, so they are buying games more often than renting them.
Can I get a big "Hell YeS!!!" brother, spreading the truth all they way. The 360 is much more diverse then my PS3 thus far. :cool:

[Steele Johnson]

Selling half a million to an installed user base of ~18 million could be considered a failure.

Success isn't just determine by user base and the amount of units sold, you also have to consider the cost of development and its unit price. 500,000 units isn't bad if it's a $20 game and only took 2 years and a million bucks to make.

Some of those indie games are selling like crazy, and most of them cost sub $500,000 to make.

[Major Dan]

Success isn't just determine by user base and the amount of units sold, you also have to consider the cost of development and its unit price. 500,000 units isn't bad if it's a $20 game and only took 2 years and a million bucks to make.

Some of those indie games are selling like crazy, and most of them cost sub $500,000 to make.

There you go, too much GREED to go around right now. Sometimes if you make a million dollars, maybe you shouldn't complain nor feel like a failure. :)

[Zecon]

Can I get a big "Hell YeS!!!" brother, spreading the truth all they way. The 360 is much more diverse then my PS3 thus far. :cool:
Careful, we don't want to attract any attention from the SDF to fill the thread up with the usual "PS3 is going to be around for 10 years!" and the "Xbox360sucks! RRoD FTL!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOL"
All 3 consoles have their + and -, all I hope for is Dennis Dyack's "1 console future (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=195311)" I think if this were to ever happen, companies would have to use their hardware/software combinations to sway the public to playing games on their console rather than the competitors. As it stands, people have to buy 3 consoles (4 including PC) to have access to all the games. This just isn't plausible for anyone who doesnt put gaming before all other expenses in their life, or they have an assload of cash. This is really what hurts 3rd party titles, since they have to make sure they target the right console for their game.

[Ravenlock]

I think there is also a distinct value vs price gap that keeps most hardcore players from buying many games on the Wii. If I'm in a game store looking for a new purchase, but I'm not sure what, I'll look at all my options. I have a PS2, Wii, DS, 360, and PC. I'll only walk out with one game in my hand, so I want the best bang-for-my-buck. If it comes down to the Wii versus the 360 and PC, I have to ask myself: Wouldn't I rather buy a game on a platform with good online play and better graphics?

In general, this is true, though certainly it's possible to differentiate the Wii version of a 3rd party multiplatform game - you just have to actually put some work into doing it.

The Godfather: Blackhand Edition was a mediocre game on every console other than the Wii, but on the Wii, it shines. Not just because it's the only GTA-esque thing on the platform (though obviously that plays a part), but because the revamped controls are brilliant. The shooting works perfectly with the IR aiming, and the motion controls for fighting and extortion are completely immersive. It becomes a totally different experience on the Wii.

Tiger Woods '09: All-Play Edition is being hailed by pretty much every review I've read as the version to get across all platforms, specifically because the graphical difference is more than made up for by the brilliantly done one-to-one motion controls. (I picked it up yesterday myself, and while I've only played a couple of hours of it, so far I'd say they're right.) It also doesn't hurt that it has a functioning online system that doesn't use friend codes.

The motion controlled carving in SSX: Blur made it the most enjoyable SSX game I'd ever played. (Contrasted, unfortunately, with the motion controlled steering in Tony Hawk's Downhill Jam, which was pretty awful.)

I think Okami could have been in the "better on Wii" category as well if they had better nailed the painting controls with the IR pointer. As it is, they're too finicky, but if they'd been solid there'd be no question of which version you wanted to play. Drawing symbols with the IR pointer is simply easier and more enjoyable than doing it with an analog stick.

There are a lot of games that the Wii can enhance, if its unique qualities are used sensibly. Devs just need to realize that slapping waggle controls onto their existing code isn't going to cut it. Most serious gamers who own a Wii also have a 360/PS3 (ironically I'm not one of those, but most do), and of course they're going to buy the better looking, better-online version unless there's something really compelling about the Wii one.

All of that said, as Lutheran and some others in this thread mentioned, the actual publishers of the games mentioned here - Okami, Boom Blox, Zack and Wiki - have publicly said that their Wii sales met or exceeded expectations, which of course could be marketing BS, but they certainly don't seem to be complaining. And EA, much as I hate to give them credit for anything, certainly seem to be upping their Wii efforts with their sports games. (Seriously, if you have a Wii, snag Tiger Woods '09 so we can hit the links. It's really good.)

For me, my collection of Wii games (I've got about 20) are split pretty much 50/50 between 1st and 3rd party. I'll be picking up Lego Batman and probably Star Wars: Force Unleashed soon, which will tip it in 3rd party's favor. The Conduit looks really sweet, as does De Blob, and if we're really lucky games like Quantum of Solace, Sonic Unleashed and Call of Duty: World at War won't be total duds on the system. Hell, even the Dead Rising game looks like fun, even if the graphics really do look embarrassing.

So while I can see the argument that 3rd parties are "failing" on the system, I'm not sure I agree, and it's certainly too early to call them "failed". Games like Guitar Hero 3, Resident Evil 4 and Lego Star Wars have been million sellers on the system. Just takes the right game, the right marketing, and the right price.

Wow, that was more than I meant to write. Good topic, Evil!

[Rash]

Actually, now that you mention it I do remember worldwide Boom Blox numbers to be pretty good. Wasn't it around 400,000 to 500,000?

That's not bad for a game that no one knows about.

Just imagine how much more these great Wii games could be selling if more people knew about them or could have them demoed in some fashion.

[bean19]

It's just a matter of time until someone makes a great AAA 3rd party title on the Wii that appeals to the Wii's broad customer base and gets a lot of hype. Then we'll see it sell millions of copies.

The problem stems from the Wii's poor technology. Due to this, it is very difficult to launch new IPs on the system with much success. Nintendo makes a bundle because they make games that are high quality and that have generation's old IPs that appeal to gamers of all ages. It's easy to sell a great game like Zelda, but it would be a lot harder to sell a similar game from a 3rd party. Gameplay shines through, of course, and if a great adventure game with an epic storyline like Zelda's came out, gamers would adopt it and with enough promotion a new IP would be born.

But there's the business problem. Marketing is extremely expensive and is sometimes half or more of a game's "development" budget. Plus, making a really good game like a Zelda knockoff on the Wii still takes a lot of development time. This makes this type of game high risk with medium reward because it is a new IP. Meanwhile, you can invest a much smaller amount and produce some shovelware that is much more likely to pay off.

Of course, 3rd party developers also have their own IPs that are established and could make games on the Wii with those, but then you run into a few other problems:

1. The controls of the Wii are new, and for an existing IP this can mean needing to radically change the controls to make them fit the Wii, and possibly injuring the IP; or

2. Having to make a game that has always been built upon being a graphical powerhouse on a system that can't produce the visuals for which your game is known.

The obvious solution is to make a knock-off version that is outside of the "canon" of a series, and I think we've already seen that and will see more of it. Squenix did this on the Gamecube with Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles, and we have already seen one example of this with Resident Evil on the Wii. It wasn't terribly successful, but it didn't injure the main IP, and it probably did well enough to make them money.

It will happen eventually though. The install base worldwide is getting large enough that a high quality new IP made only for the Wii could make money. If I was the one signing off on this project, I'd want it to be a family-friendly title to make best use of the Wii's demographic. I'd be more interested in using the Wii as a way to work on a side project. . . maybe a low cost mini-game title that is a bit like the Wii Sports and Wii Play games with better graphics and of course new puzzles. This could be used to keep my teams working even when a bigger AAA project for the Xbox 360 and PS3 was in stages that did not require their specialties.

Another problem they face is that while the Wii has a ton of consoles sold, the Xbox 360 and PS3 have more consoles sold collectively. You actually have a much larger install base for a multiplatform title on HD systems than you do for the Wii alone. If your game can also be ported to PC, then you increase your potential sales even more.

Finally, it's not just the money men making decisions on what games to make, but the developers as well. Most developers are going to pitch games that they want to play and most of them tend to be a bit more hardcore. This is not a main reason for the lack of high quality 3rd party games on the Wii, but just one more contributing factor.

[RMan]

The problem stems from the Wii's poor technology. Due to this, it is very difficult to launch new IPs on the system with much success.
That’s entirely opposite of how it works in the real world, most new IP, and by that token, most games, are not the big budget graphics powerhouses that differentiate the Wii’s tech from the PS3/360. This seems to be another assumption with little thought behind it. What are you imagining these new IPs limited by the Wii are? Exactly what doors is the 360/PS3 tech opening for 3rd parties?
2. Having to make a game that has always been built upon being a graphical powerhouse on a system that can't produce the visuals for which your game is known.
Thankfully, this isn’t a problem, since there are VERY few games that could fit into this category. The graphics powerhouses are mostly 1st/2nd party titles, and have to have been released on the 360/PS3, so they can’t have much of a history of being a graphics powerhouse.
It wasn't terribly successful, but it didn't injure the main IP, and it probably did well enough to make them money.
That resident evil game sold well over 1M copies, which is quite impressive considering it sucked. That’s almost 70% of what Dead Rising made on the 360, and I’m sure cost WAY less in every respect. RE:UC should not be mentioned in anti-Nintendo threads, since it sold more than Kane and Lynch, Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, DoA4, DMC4 (on 360), Dirt, Skate, and nearly twice Kameo, to name a few, and most of these are considerably higher rated games. The idea that the 360 is some bastion of money throwing, open-minded gamers rewarding all 3rd parties with success while the Wii owners are just hordes of Wiimote wielding grannies that scoff at all but Wii Sports is just elitist fantasy. Not trying to bash you hard on this one, your post was mostly even headed, but these assumptions of failure deserve correction.
Another problem they face is that while the Wii has a ton of consoles sold, the Xbox 360 and PS3 have more consoles sold collectively. You actually have a much larger install base for a multiplatform title on HD systems than you do for the Wii alone.
Highly doubtful, unless you expect owners of both 360 and PS3 to buy both versions of a game. Nice try though. At this point, the clearly safe bet is the Wii having more players, but in the end it depends on what the publisher wants to make. If they can afford to build a big HD game, and think it’s a good idea, then clearly it’s not gonna be a Wii game anyways. I’d wager few 3rd parties are going to make that gamble in the future, though, especially for new IP. This is not the market that Sony and MS envisioned 3 years ago, and everyone knows it now.

[JimmyDanger]

Mad World.

Some Big Silly is always good. That's the only 3rd party Wii title on the horizon I remotely care about.

And I own 25 Wii games (10 first party - 11 if you count Batallion Wars 2 - which I guess I should).

I'm a bit over the Wii - truth be told - and I've tried really hard to love it.

Still don't begrudge Nintendo for being an entertainment company - they've existed long before video games existed and their mantra has always been high quality (for some reason I think of the fake Wired Yamauchi interview - "we made fucking good cards. Not like flimsy American shit" or somesuch) home entertainment for the whole family.

Theres a reason the FamiCom was marketed in the west as the Nintendo Entertainment System - not Video Console System (and it wasn't purely as a tonic to retailers wary of stocking the NES post the VCS/industry crash).

The first Nintendo product I came into contact with as a preschooler of the late 70's/early 80's was the classic "robot hand on a stick" (the name escapes me at the mo - Nintendo reach?) - a classic simple employment of mechanics and design that could be interpreted and used so many different ways for so many diffrent types of people - as if they'd been handed a random super power - they immediately start trying different things with it (I recall thinking it'd be great to put down drains).

It's funny - but maybe in a roundabout kind of way - Nintendo have come full circle - and finally swept the card and board games from the family living room and brought the video game medium in it's place - over 1/4 of their history - a footnote for the family entertainment giant.

[Heretic Machine]

The first Nintendo product I came into contact with as a preschooler of the late 70's/early 80's was the classic "robot hand on a stick" (the name escapes me at the mo - Nintendo reach?) - a classic simple employment of mechanics and design that could be interpreted and used so many different ways for so many diffrent types of people - as if they'd been handed a random super power - they immediately start trying different things with it (I recall thinking it'd be great to put down drains).

You're thinking of the Nintendo Ultra Hand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_Hand), designed by Gunpei Yokoi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpei_Yokoi), creator of the Gameboy. The Ultra Hand was how he was noticed, while working as Nintendo's janitor and maintenance man in one of their factories.

Fucking weird how that worked out, eh?

[RMan]

The Ultra Hand was how he was noticed, while working as Nintendo's janitor and maintenance man in one of their factories.
I didn't know that, that's awesome.


Now, to recap, and because it’s amusing to smack down on Wii haters, we look at these failures…
No More heroes, which may or may not be profitable by now, has sold more than Stranglehold did on the 360, and it only has a 4% higher metascore. As most know, there is no question about Stranglehold’s chances of making a profit, as it’s cost was very high. NMH also sold more than Lord Of the Rings: Middle Earth II, which had a 3% lower metascore rating, and a pretty respectable license behind it.

Okami, as a re-release, has nearly caught up in sales with the original release, which was on the system with the greatest 3rd party support of all time, and at 1/3rd the install base. Somehow this is listed as a bad mark for the Wii’s 3rd party support, boggles the mind, it does.

Boom Blox, a new IP but with a notably big name behind it, has likely already made a profit. It’s selling at a far faster pace than Katamari Damacy, a higher rated, similarly quirky game on the PS2 (that system with 3X the install base of the Wii). It’s doing this at a relatively high price, as well, yet somehow this is labeled a failure. Note, it’s sales are about equal to the 360’s Eternal Sonata (80% rating), Virtua Fighter 5 Online (89% rating) and Flatout: Ultimate Carnage (80%) combined, and Boom Blox is still selling.

Now, 360 superfans, please remind me which system is inhospitable to 3rd parties again.

This is an entertainment industry, people, there are no safe bets.

[Lutheran]

In general, this is true, though certainly it's possible to differentiate the Wii version of a 3rd party multiplatform game - you just have to actually put some work into doing it.

The Godfather: Blackhand Edition was a mediocre game on every console other than the Wii, but on the Wii, it shines. Not just because it's the only GTA-esque thing on the platform (though obviously that plays a part), but because the revamped controls are brilliant. The shooting works perfectly with the IR aiming, and the motion controls for fighting and extortion are completely immersive. It becomes a totally different experience on the Wii.

Tiger Woods '09: All-Play Edition is being hailed by pretty much every review I've read as the version to get across all platforms, specifically because the graphical difference is more than made up for by the brilliantly done one-to-one motion controls. (I picked it up yesterday myself, and while I've only played a couple of hours of it, so far I'd say they're right.) It also doesn't hurt that it has a functioning online system that doesn't use friend codes.

The motion controlled carving in SSX: Blur made it the most enjoyable SSX game I'd ever played. (Contrasted, unfortunately, with the motion controlled steering in Tony Hawk's Downhill Jam, which was pretty awful.)

I think Okami could have been in the "better on Wii" category as well if they had better nailed the painting controls with the IR pointer. As it is, they're too finicky, but if they'd been solid there'd be no question of which version you wanted to play. Drawing symbols with the IR pointer is simply easier and more enjoyable than doing it with an analog stick.

There are a lot of games that the Wii can enhance, if its unique qualities are used sensibly. Devs just need to realize that slapping waggle controls onto their existing code isn't going to cut it. Most serious gamers who own a Wii also have a 360/PS3 (ironically I'm not one of those, but most do), and of course they're going to buy the better looking, better-online version unless there's something really compelling about the Wii one.

All of that said, as Lutheran and some others in this thread mentioned, the actual publishers of the games mentioned here - Okami, Boom Blox, Zack and Wiki - have publicly said that their Wii sales met or exceeded expectations, which of course could be marketing BS, but they certainly don't seem to be complaining. And EA, much as I hate to give them credit for anything, certainly seem to be upping their Wii efforts with their sports games. (Seriously, if you have a Wii, snag Tiger Woods '09 so we can hit the links. It's really good.)

For me, my collection of Wii games (I've got about 20) are split pretty much 50/50 between 1st and 3rd party. I'll be picking up Lego Batman and probably Star Wars: Force Unleashed soon, which will tip it in 3rd party's favor. The Conduit looks really sweet, as does De Blob, and if we're really lucky games like Quantum of Solace, Sonic Unleashed and Call of Duty: World at War won't be total duds on the system. Hell, even the Dead Rising game looks like fun, even if the graphics really do look embarrassing.

So while I can see the argument that 3rd parties are "failing" on the system, I'm not sure I agree, and it's certainly too early to call them "failed". Games like Guitar Hero 3, Resident Evil 4 and Lego Star Wars have been million sellers on the system. Just takes the right game, the right marketing, and the right price.

Wow, that was more than I meant to write. Good topic, Evil!

This post is full of win as is Rmans post above me , I just don't see why there is so much hate for Nintendo these days when its the dev's who are entirely responsible for not making a lot of great games for this console. I expected more out of them by now. Still there is a lot of fun to be had by owning a Wii. I love when I read on this forum how a lot of people have Wii's collecting dust but when I go to some other popular gaming forums that have a shitton of Wii game threads and 10 times the amount of replies I almost never see that comment. Some people actually enjoy their console purchase ;p If your Wii's collecting dust , SELL IT. You obviously don't look for games to play on it. Wiiware alone has a lot of fun titles.

[Gorvi]

Part of the reason I think that the good third party games don't sell so well on the Wii is that the general Wii user, the casual user, doesn't know what the good games are. They don't visit gaming sites, they don't research their purchases, hell, they mostly buy based on name recognition and box art. They see Mario, they know that name. They see Resident Evil, they know that name.

That's going to be the inherint problem with the market that Nintendo has created with this casual market. Just look at the DS, the damn thing sells like mad here in the US, but outside Guitar Hero, what was the last DS game you saw crack the top 10?

This all has nothing to do with the Wii as a console, it's perfectly capable and there's nothing wrong with it. But it's an astounding success with a market that doesn't know where to look for the next great game, a market that makes the "safe buy".

[grognard66]

Major third-party developers will stubbornly continue to support Wii despite the poor results because the people who make those decisions (executives at the mercy of shareholders) know that it is expected. Most non-gamers only see that Wii sells more hardware than others and has some huge software successes without noticing that all those games are first-party titles.

The people who green light projects see the lure of low development cost (quick ports and/or 6-8 month development cycle for a cash-in mini-game collection) combined with the install base without understanding the unique culture behind Wii gamers and Nintendo's atrocious third-party support.

Nintendo didn't even bother to tell developers about the new Wii-mote accessory, much to the chagrin of LucasArts who were developing their lightsaber game. That tells you everything you need to know about what Nintendo really thinks about third-parties. They'll pay lip service to them and approve any shoddy game tossed their way for the licensing fee but could actually care less if they succeed. Nintendo is making so much money on hardware, accessories and first-party games they don't need third parties. I'm hoping this comes back and bites them in their arrogant asses next generation.

[Jetherik]

We look at numbers and say that a game is not a success if they don't sell 100k in the first few months. Wii owners don't rush out and buy these games when they come out. Remember, most Wii owners are casual gamers who don't go out and buy the games right away (except for the hard core games that have two or three systems - and then, if they have two or three systems, they are buying Madden or other 3rd party games for their other system, not the Wii). The developers have to look at the "Long Tail" of sales. Yes, there is an intial spike of games sold and it goes down, but how long are those games sold for? Is it better to have 300k sales within two months or 350k sales in eight months or longer? During the holiday season, many of the Wii systems will pick up the third party games. As long as the 3rd party are not losing money, then it is in their best interest to put the game on the Wii. They may not make it back right away, but sometimes, patience will reward them.

[Froggy]

Part of the reason I think that the good third party games don't sell so well on the Wii is that the general Wii user, the casual user, doesn't know what the good games are. They don't visit gaming sites, they don't research their purchases, hell, they mostly buy based on name recognition and box art. They see Mario, they know that name. They see Resident Evil, they know that name.


Great insight. Before the Wii came out, there was a lot of talk about capturing the casual gamer market as well as opening up the world of video games to new people: families, retirement homes, chiropractors. People speculated that Wii would dominate by targeting more people.

I'm wondering if the poor third party sales and support are the pit in the cherry. It seems like this is the aspect of the plan that backfired. So you capture new markets: half of them don't know what to buy and the other half like bejeweled. I want to be excited about a Wii game again, like I was for Zak and Wiki or No More Heroes.

[JockoIsWacko]

EA will continue supporting a console, even if they make only a dollar out of it. Greed knows no bounds.....................

[RMan]

Part of the reason I think that the good third party games don't sell so well on the Wii is that the general Wii user, the casual user, doesn't know what the good games are.
Strikes me as more elitist nonsense, as I demonstrated above, the results don't show the Wii 3rd party sales as worse than any other system, and related to the 'hyped failures', it's actually better. From an objective POV, the Wii's 3rd party titles sell exceptionally well, but some people just don't want to hear that, and there are none so blind as those that refuse to see. From now on, anyone who parrots 'the Wii's poor 3rd party sales' nonsense is instantly a sheep, or they should bring some actual information to the table.

Some of you hardcore gamers seem to need this 'casual Wii audience' to look down on, but again, the facts as we know them simply don't support these views and the silly statements being parroted.
Major third-party developers will stubbornly continue to support Wii despite the poor results…
Man, I need a pic of a sheep with a parrot’s head.

[Gorvi]

Strikes me as more elitist nonsense, as I demonstrated above, the results don't show the Wii 3rd party sales as worse than any other system, and related to the 'hyped failures', it's actually better. From an objective POV, the Wii's 3rd party titles sell exceptionally well, but some people just don't want to hear that, and there are none so blind as those that refuse to see. From now on, anyone who parrots 'the Wii's poor 3rd party sales' nonsense is instantly a sheep, or they should bring some actual information to the table.

Some of you hardcore gamers seem to need this 'casual Wii audience' to look down on, but again, the facts as we know them simply don't support these views and the silly statements being parroted.
Defensive much? I never said third party Wii games just don't sell, I was giving a possible reason why some of the better 3rd party games don't stand out from the pack in terms of sales. There are some games (NMH, Z&W) that deserve to sell much better than they have.

[RMan]

Defensive much? I never said third party Wii games just don't sell, I was giving a possible reason why some of the better 3rd party games don't stand out from the pack in terms of sales. There are some games (NMH, Z&W) that deserve to sell much better than they have.
I know, but when you do it while singling out the the Wii's 3rd party sales it's perpetuating the baseless myth I was referring to. For instance, if I said 'part of the reason the good soda doesn't sell well to black people is because black people don't know what good soda is' I'd expect to at least have something to support my premise. If I also said that on a forum about race relations, I'd hope the bar would be even higher to support a statement. What's happening here, to put it in this context, is precisely like saying 'black people drink crap soda' and everyone running with it because they want some reason to look down on black people. The true statement that won't sound elitist or possibly racist is 'some people drink crap soda', don't single a group out unless you can back it up somehow.

[Justin_Bailey]

Defensive much? I never said third party Wii games just don't sell, I was giving a possible reason why some of the better 3rd party games don't stand out from the pack in terms of sales. There are some games (NMH, Z&W) that deserve to sell much better than they have.

But that's true for many good games across all systems. How well did Ico sell?

Or Shadow of the Colossus?
Or Katamari Damacy?
Or Ikaruga?
Or Beyond Good and Evil?
Or Indigo Prophecy?
On and on and on...

The Wii is no different than any other system in that regard. Games like GTA4 and COD4 are phenomenoms because they sell so much better than other third party titles. And this is born out on the Wii as games like Guitar Hero III and Rayman Raving Rabbids sell much better than NMH or Boom Blox or Z&W.

That's life.

[Gorvi]

But that's true for many good games across all systems. How well did Ico sell?

Or Shadow of the Colossus?
Or Katamari Damacy?
Or Ikaruga?
Or Beyond Good and Evil?
Or Indigo Prophecy?
On and on and on...

The Wii is no different than any other system in that regard. Games like GTA4 and COD4 are phenomenoms because they sell so much better than other third party titles. And this is born out on the Wii as games like Guitar Hero III and Rayman Raving Rabbids sell much better than NMH or Boom Blox or Z&W.

That's life.
Ok, those were bad examples, but they were the best I could think of as far as actual good 3rd party exclusives that aren't ports of some kind. Hell, I still can't think of any, at least none that are really all that substantial.
I know, but when you do it while singling out the the Wii's 3rd party sales it's perpetuating the baseless myth I was referring to. For instance, if I said 'part of the reason the good soda doesn't sell well to black people is because black people don't know what good soda is' I'd expect to at least have something to support my premise. If I also said that on a forum about race relations, I'd hope the bar would be even higher to support a statement. What's happening here, to put it in this context, is precisely like saying 'black people drink crap soda' and everyone running with it because they want some reason to look down on black people. The true statement that won't sound elitist or possibly racist is 'some people drink crap soda', don't single a group out unless you can back it up somehow.
There's quite a bit wrong with that arguement, but I'll try to focus on one thing. Are you trying to say that the casual market that the Wii has attracted are well informed consumers in the games area? They're just as savy in terms of their purchases as gamers buying PS3s and 360s? While none of us can really back that up with cold hard facts, I doubt many would dispute that many Wii owners, this new market that Nintendo has attracted, aren't nearly as focused on games as those who have been traditional console owners, at least early in a console's life.

I'm not trying to put down the Wii, it's a great machine, but there are a lot of casual non-gamers out there with Wiis right now and they're not nearly as well equiped as we are to sort out the cream from the crap. Yes, I know shit games sell on all consoles, but the sheer numbers the Wii has can be deceptive.

[RMan]

Are you trying to say that the casual market that the Wii has attracted are well informed consumers in the games area?
No, I’m saying that whatever assumptions you choose to make about these console players, you are trying to apply that assumption to a problem that has been clearly demonstrated to not exist. 3rd parties seem to be rewarded more on the Wii than the 360, so to completely turn a blind eye to that so you can discuss the shortcomings of the Wii’s market and it’s effect on the subject at hand is just, well, wrong. If you want to discuss cause and effect, the first thing is to actually identify the effect before pondering the cause.
I'm not trying to put down the Wii, it's a great machine, but there are a lot of casual non-gamers out there with Wiis right now and they're not nearly as well equipped as we are to sort out the cream from the crap. Yes, I know shit games sell on all consoles, but the sheer numbers the Wii has can be deceptive.
Again, I see that as a self-righteous viewpoint that doesn’t consider the downsides of the highly conditioned hardcore gamer. Exactly how did these well informed gamers determine that Virtua Fighter 5, Flatout:UC and Eternal Sonata were crap, and why did the gaming media not pick up on this? Since Boom Blox and NMH outsold all these titles, the logical conclusion, if one can be made, is that for whatever reason the Wii audience is better equipped to separate the cream from the crap, as you put it (or at least to reward the cream, which is the subject being discussed).

I think it’s a bad idea to draw these conclusions, because there are too many factors in place and I don’t think the reasons have much, if anything, to do with this, but if I wanted to go negative on the 360 crowd, I could go with this…

The 360 crowd is heavily inclined towards shooters for online play, and are xenophobic, and thus just wouldn’t give Virtua Fighter 5 a chance. Eternal Sonata was too cute for the generally blood thirsty 360 crowd, and didn’t have the heavy marketing required to get their attention. Flatout: UC was also one that just didn’t have the marketing, because while the hardcore crowd spends much more time thinking about and researching gaming, they’re still doing it by reading the same mainstream media sites, and are still just parrots for the mainstream media. The heavy conditioning of playing many years of games makes hardcore gamers uncomfortable with new control schemes and game types, since they cannot immediately excel at them. This increases their attraction to sequels and common games, forcing those appealing to them to brute force out-feature the competition, decreasing the value of ingenuity and making it harder for newcomers.

Now, although I think some of that stuff is true to an extent, I don’t think it’s relevant to the subject at hand, even though the evidence seen so far CLEARLY supports this position more than yours, which seems to be the detrimental effect of gaming ignorance.

[bean19]

Gorvi - Just ignore Rman in Wii threads. He is the Wii's TeeCakes.

[JmWashu]

The Wii is kind of the board game of the market. The friends and family come over, instead of busting out monopoly, you bring out the WII and play some mario party, smash bros, or mario kart. When it comes to multiplatform games such as madden, people want the versions that use a regular standard controller rather than sitting their, swinging a damn wii mote around while chugging your bear and farting on your lazy boy couch. Usual Wii owners tend to have atleast one other system with it as well, be it a xbox360 or Playstation 3, So naturally, which are you going to buy? The version that has better graphics, better online support, better online multiplayer, or go with the one that has you flailing your arms around? Unless the game is exclusive, innovative, or a returning classic which is nintendo's staple, there will always be a mario, mario kart, metroid, zelda, smash bros, mario party. Just with a new pazzaz for the new console, no one really wants to be bothered.
But nintendo wont go anywhere simply because of the Asian market. Japan, and china alone sell enough of the consoles to justify them making more systems and games.
As for third party support, it will last regardless. Third parties all see sales figures of the wii and immediately see dollar signs. Guess I can only hope that they system goes the way the dreamcast did :D

[bean19]

Again, I see that as a self-righteous viewpoint that doesn’t consider the downsides of the highly conditioned hardcore gamer.

I should take my own advice, but this and all that follows it is a pile of crap. Gamers are by definition interested in gaming. There are a lot of FPS fans that love the Xbox 360, but if all someone owns is Guitar Hero, Call of Duty 4, Burnout, and an assortment of sports games. . . they aren't a "gamer". They are mass-market.

Gorvi is pointing out that the Wii has it's own "mass market" in the form of Nintendo titles. These games get great marketing and they are high quality, so they tend to steal the spotlight. The same thing happens on the Xbox 360. If there is a highly anticipated new IP, they have to promote the hell out of it. Do you remember the insane amount of hype for Gears of War or for Assassin's Creed?

Now, this doesn't mean a good 3rd party game couldn't also get attention on the Wii. They certainly could if someone was interested in making a AAA 3rd party game for the Wii and spending the money to promote it like they do for new IPs on the HD systems. Are you interested in marketing or know anything about it? There are plenty of articles out on game developer sites and in game dev mags that talk about how a new IP has to be marketed in the same way that Honda might market a new car design. Honda sells millions of iterated Accords because people know that model and what to expect from it, so less marketing is required, but if they come out with a new Honda Discord, they'll have to promote the hell out of it if they want it to take off. This is why poor games based on existing game franchises like the Resident Evil shooter sold a lot of games.

However, there is a reason that the true sequel to the series, Resident Evil 5, is coming out on HD consoles. They've made a game that is known for it's exceedingly excellent visuals, so it needs to come to next-gen systems. There are a lot of IPs like this that simply will never have their true sequels on the Wii: Final Fantasy, Devil May Cry, Burnout, Prince of Persia, etc. I can't honestly think of a strong 3rd party license that can afford to have ancient graphics for their flagship series. So when I say that the Wii is a victim of it's poor technology in courting 3rd party developers, I'm not simply taking a swipe at it. This is the number one reason why all of the biggest franchises cannot afford to damage their IPs by making true sequels for the Wii.

So the end result is that it is absolutely possible to do a AAA 3rd party game on the Wii with a new IP that you are willing to promote and "make big". The obstacles to this are surmountable, but they do exist:


You have to use the Wii controls and use them well. Otherwise, why aren't you making this for the HD systems or the PS2 as well?
You have to be confident that your product will sell well enough to pay for the costs of development and the high costs of marketing a new IP.
While using the controls well, you have to try to not copy Nintendo entirely. If you end up making a game that is just like a first party game, the chances are they will have done it better than you and you'll be a pale imitation.
It helps if you go family-friendly in genre to take best advantage of the Wii's very wide demographic.


A few people have risen to this challenge already with middling success. Someone will eventually knock it out of the park. It's just a matter of time. There are a lot of creative, talented people who will be happy to make a great Wii game. . . but there will also be a lot of developers that use a Wii side project to keep their team working while their number one project is for HD systems. Just because there is a lot of shovelware doesn't mean that there won't be 3rd party hits too.

[RMan]

Not sure the point you were trying to make in the first part, but your response helps prove mine. My post had just as much base as Gorvi’s, which is not much, it’s predicated on the idea that this gaming group makes poor game purchasing decisions, so those are reasons why they might, with respect to the subject matter.

Now, this doesn't mean a good 3rd party game couldn't also get attention on the Wii.
And looking at the actual information, they most certainly do.
They certainly could if someone was interested in making a AAA 3rd party game for the Wii and spending the money to promote it like they do for new IPs on the HD systems.
When did this turn into a discussion on what you perceive as a AAA title? This is about 3rd party titles, and by your standard a AAA 3rd party title seemingly hasn’t been released on the Wii. So now you want to restrict the discussion to something completely based on assumption? No thanks, I’ll pass.
Are you interested in marketing or know anything about it?
Only in this world, so not sure we can communicate on it :). This is why poor games based on existing game franchises like the Resident Evil shooter sold a lot of games.
Not sure why you launched into that, but YOU are the one that made the incorrect assumption the assumption about it’s success, not me. I have more cause to try to explain to you how to read then you have to explain marketing to me.
However, there is a reason that the true sequel to the series, Resident Evil 5, is coming out on HD consoles.
Two reasons, I’d say. The logical one being it was announced more than 3 years ago, and second being that your definition of ‘true sequel’ requires that it be HD.

But without a doubt, games that should be Wii exclusives should be on the Wii, games that should be HD need to be on 360/PS3, I never argued that. I would argue the blind assumption that what’s on HD systems now would be there regardless of how different the climate is now is silly. If everyone knew what the market was going to look like now, they’d have made some different choices, and big publishers have even admitted that publicly. I’m sure when RE5 is announced for the Wii, you’ll say it’s not a true sequel or stick your head in the sand some other way.
So when I say that the Wii is a victim of it's poor technology in courting 3rd party developers, I'm not simply taking a swipe at it.
Nor have you ever been able to support that wishful thinking.
This is the number one reason why all of the biggest franchises cannot afford to damage their IPs by making true sequels for the Wii.
Hehe, you mean like VF5 (who’s previous incarnation sold more than twice as much on the DC as 360+PS3)? Honestly, it’s just too easy, I’m just gonna say, back up your statements with logic and information, something besides wishful thinking that seems only to demonstrate you haven’t been paying attention the last 2 years.

You have to use the Wii controls and use them well. Otherwise, why aren't you making this for the HD systems or the PS2 as well?
For the normal reason, because the Wii is the king. BTW, making a game multiplatform doesn't change it's 3rd party status.
You have to be confident that your product will sell well enough to pay for the costs of development and the high costs of marketing a new IP.
Irrelevant to Wii discussion. Might as well say must make sure it’s printed on optical medium, rather than a chicken.
While using the controls well, you have to try to not copy Nintendo entirely. If you end up making a game that is just like a first party game, the chances are they will have done it better than you and you'll be a pale imitation.
Irrelevant to Wii discussion, this is true for any competitor, and no system is free from that.
It helps if you go family-friendly in genre to take best advantage of the Wii's very wide demographic.
While true, a wide demographic is not an obstacle, and is a benefit to new IP.
A few people have risen to this challenge already with middling success.
This suggests the possibility of actual information, please, enlighten us.
but there will also be a lot of developers that use a Wii side project to keep their team working while their number one project is for HD systems.
Hehe, there’s always the dream, which is often more palatable than the real world. Good luck with that.

[bean19]

Wow. That could serve as an example of ridiculous topic sniping. I should have taken my own advice and ignored you Rman. I did read that, and there are some legitimate points mixed in with all the hatefulness, but I'm not going to argue with someone who is rude.

[PathMaster]

Some of those games have better control schemes on other platforms. The Wii exclusives could just be poor marketing honestly.
How long will third party publishers continue to support a platform that's doing very little for them in return?
For a long time. Even a small chance to grab some $$ from the massive owner's base is more then likely worth it. Will we see massive budgeted games that are new IPs from third parties in the Wii future? That is tough to say.

**Did not read the preceding thread before answering.

[RMan]

**Did not read the preceding thread before answering.
In summary, the question has been demonstrated to be predicated on purely baseless assumption, and is thus pointless. Next week's question will hopefully be 'How many thousands of people were involved in the government conspiracy to assassinate JFK, was it 2000, or 12,000?', that'd be fun.

[bean19]

In summary, the question has been demonstrated to be predicated on purely baseless assumption, and is thus pointless. Next week's question will hopefully be 'How many thousands of people were involved in the government conspiracy to assassinate JFK, was it 2000, or 12,000?', that'd be fun.
According to Rman. Most everyone else disagrees, but he'll rudely state that what we take as a given from demonstrated facts is just false perception over and over thus making it impossible to actually have a discussion.

[RMan]

According to Rman. Most everyone else disagrees, but he'll rudely state that what we take as a given from demonstrated facts is just false perception over and over thus making it impossible to actually have a discussion.
More baseless assumption, classic Bean19. Seriously, nobody has even attempted to support the premise of this thread, because it's crap, and it's obvious to anyone who actually tries to find information on it. Only fanatics like yourself would believe it without any actual evidence, and few have posted disagreements with me and NONE have any information at all to support their position. Yet, you assume 'most everyone else disagrees'? Fanatics are funny.

[Ondo]

I can't honestly think of a strong 3rd party license that can afford to have ancient graphics for their flagship series.
Dragon Quest and Monster Hunter are doing so.

Castlevania and Bomberman could also afford it. I'm sure there's more.

[bean19]

Dragon Quest and Monster Hunter are doing so.

Castlevania and Bomberman could also afford it. I'm sure there's more.

Yeah. Good thinking Ondo.

[Justin_Bailey]

According to Rman. Most everyone else disagrees, but he'll rudely state that what we take as a given from demonstrated facts is just false perception over and over thus making it impossible to actually have a discussion.

Who disagrees? There's no evidence that third parties games perform worse overall on the Wii than on any other system.

My question would be why wasn't this thread focused on the poor performance of third party games on the PS3? Because overall, third party games sell better on the Wii than on the PS3.