A Call to Arrest Penny Arcade?

[NoName]

As a followup to the news of Penny Arcade donating 10,000 dollars to charity from yesterday, apparently this morning Jack Thompson faxed the Seattle police department (http://www.livejournal.com/users/gamepolitics/110152.html) trying to get Gabe and Tycho arrested.

In a letter faxed to Seattle Police Chief Gil Kerlikowske, Thompson says, in part, "A Seattle business by the name of Penny Arcade... employs certain personnel who have decided to commence and orchestrate criminal harassment of me by various means... "
"I look forward to working with your fine Police Department to shut this little extortion factory down and/or arrest some of its employees."
I know EA's policy is to not post news related to this man... but this is a bit much! Thanks to Taco and Kotaku (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/jack-thompson/jack-thompson-calls-fiveo-131639.php) for this.
EDIT: Here's the full fax (http://www.penny-arcade.com/news.php?date=2005-10-17#2837) posted by Tycho on Penny Arcade.

[Tia]

sigh, how did he ever pass the bar?

[Achilles]

It’s harassment to give money to a charity in someone else’s name? I guess if it threatens the person’s reputation as a cold hearted miser. Maybe someone has more to this story.

[Rakael]

He is working on making himself the laughing stock of the entire nation. I wouldn't worry about it, hes digging his own hole.

[Xerxes]

So when people do that during christmas and other gift giving moment, that's harassment?

Wait Wait Wait... extortion factory?!?

[The Iron Weasel]

Ok, first off, where the fuck does he get off talking down to us........seriously "There are a bunch of computer geeks out there who think that the video game industry has a constitutional right to paint a bullseye on your back and on your officers' backs" what the fuck is that....oh yeah were just a bunch of cop killers over here at Evil Avatar i've plugged 92....wait i just picked one off 93.......seriously what the fuck. A MURDER SIMULATOR, that the stupidest thing i've ever heard where the FUCK does he get this shit. I've never killed anyone....i know your all gasping and polishing your knives ready to go kill again. BUT seriously if i could just yell and scream at this man for hours i would because i'd like to take this fucker out of the media, hes fucking with our way of life boys something must be done.

EDIT: I Just read my post and it doesn't make much sense because i'm just so pissed of right now. Sorry.

[agentgray]

I say we post news on him but refer to him by something else other than his real name. That way, when the search engines spider the site he doesn't come up.

I know he is crazy, but here's hoping that Gabe and Tycho are not in over their heads. I mean this guy is a lawyer. It's his job to mess people up.

[Madhatter45]

The police are going to laugh themselves stupid. This wouldn't fly infront of any judge at all. "Yes your honor arrest them because I flat out lied about donating and they did it for me. Their donation in my name is offensive."

[XxSATANxX]

Please stop this now. Before you know it EA will become burdened by this ass. We know he's a nut. Like a certain PHD we all know he thrives on any attention he gets.

Please let us come together and agree he's a fucktard and move on. I vote no more
Jack ass stories. Unless it's his obit.

[Abednigo]

I think it's because most of you can't write a post without using cuss words.

;)

But really, the cops are going to laugh their butts off when they find out why he wants them arrested. What a tool.

What's really funny is he expects to be taken seriously by calling the offenders "computer geeks" and "idiots". I bet some of those cops read PA and are computer geeks themselves! How childish.

[gojira]

This guy is just unreal.

I seriously hope he gets removed from the bar. He just shouldn't be allowed to waste the time of law enforcement like this.

[Furtive]

Anybody else notice that this "professional" didnt even get PA's web address listed correctly on that letter? Anywho... I gotta agree with the old EA policy and vote for stopping posting news about this guy.

[A-Team]

I think it's because most of you can't write a post without using cuss words.

;)

But really, the cops are going to laugh their butts off when they find out why he wants them arrested. What a tool.
Last I checked, the site isn't rated "E" for Everyone and these "cuss words" you speak of can be good if used in the right context.

[CapnBob]

What is particularly hilarious is that he's trying to push these cops around in service of his efforts to prove that his clients are not responsible for killing cops. Good luck there, Fucko.

[The Iron Weasel]

If the unlikely event of going to court, and couldn't afford an attourny....and the even more unlikely even of Jack Thompson being chose to defend me, i'd punch the fucker in the face and tell him to fuck off.

[Xerxes]

I loved this comment from Jerry, "It is critical to establish that this letter isn't anything to worry about. We've been sent worse by better."

PA:Jack Thompson you lost something.
Jack Thompson: What's that?
PA: Your face.

[NoName]

sigh, how did he ever pass the bar?
I think he's on a fast downward spiral right now...
Of course after I posted this, PA comes out on their website and makes light of the entire thing. Gabe made a good point:
Obviously he didn’t mention anything to the police department about his “Modest proposal” in which he asks that a game be developed in which players urinate on peoples brains and murder kids who work at game stores. He never mentions that he offered ten thousand dollars to charity and then said it was just “satire.” He doesn’t tell the police chief that Jerry and I just donated the ten thousand for him. I wonder why he left that part out?

[KarmaGhost]

He's written to local police authorities before in attempts to get individuals arrested and from what I've heard, it never works. It's really nothing to get worried about (the guys at PA aren't) and it can do really nothing but good for the anti-J@ck Th0mps0n mentality. This letter, I submit, is very unprofessional in many different ways and makes him look like a desperate joke.

[ldi222]

I personally think EA should keep covering this story. This is one of the best breaks for gamers in a while when it comes to this violence issue. Jack is becoming a poster boy for the absurdity and lack of understanding of the issue. Ive never been much of a penny arcade fan but this latest stunt is killtacular!

[Abednigo]

Last I checked, the site isn't rated "E" for Everyone and these "cuss words" you speak of can be good if used in the right context.

Last I checked, a ;) at the end of a sarcastic comment helps those who don't get sarcasm to get it...hopefully.


;)

See, I did it again.

[Heretic Machine]

I know he is crazy, but here's hoping that Gabe and Tycho are not in over their heads. I mean this guy is a lawyer. It's his job to mess people up.

The thing is, PA can afford GOOD lawyers. That's the key.

[Xerxes]

It's seems like if we, the gaming community, keep the taunting him sooner or later he would just implode with rage. Ever since PA started to go heads up with him, he's slowly just going nuttier and nuttier. Guess we can thank him for righting his satirical proposal.

[xxBlackCrossxx]

I heard the PA guys hired Phoenix Wright to take the case. He's on a plane right now and sent a message: "Dammit! You're an ass**** and I can prove it!"

[TheKeck]

Last I checked, a ;) at the end of a sarcastic comment helps those who don't get sarcasm to get it...hopefully.


;)

See, I did it again.

Hey, don't make fun of people who don't pick up on sarcasm! That's really mean! Sometimes, even I don't pick up on sarcasm!

[c4ptiv3]

what a cock.....this one is for you Jack! Way to look like a jackass

[Zeal]

Does anyone even take this guy seriously...

[thecrazyd]

Does anyone even take this guy seriously...
Coming from someone that no one takes seriously, this really means something.

[Nerv]

We don't, but some (rather more important, I wager :P )people, such as Hilary Clinton do.

[Varsity]

This is awesome. :D

[TheKeck]

We don't, but some (rather more important, I wager :P )people, such as Hilary Clinton do.

If Hillary Clinton gets elected president I'll donate $10,000 to Jack Thompson's favorite charity. Oh wait... that was just satire. I may cry, though.

[bean19]

This guy is such a joke.

It is really says bad things about the Florida State Bar that he is still able to practice. . .

It is irresponsible lawyering. He is wasting the time of police with the "criminal acts of harassment" that he does not enumerate. Instead, he talks about stuff that is completely irrelevant.

Penny Arcade doesn't care about his activism against violent video games. They just despise his charlatan methods. . . extreme hyperbole, misrepresentation of the facts, and, most recently, a disgusting offer to donate $10K to charity if a developer would make a game that casts a father going on a murderous rampage against game developers and game store employees. A horrible offer he welched on even.

The thing is that even gamers don't want children playing adult videogames. We have the ESRB system to help parents make decisions on which games are inappropriate for their kids.

We also have studies that show that the problem is not that kids are buying games without parental permission, but with permisson. 80% of games are sold to people 18 years old or above. All of the major retailers of video games have a policy of not selling Mature titles (basically like rated R movies) to people under the age of 17, and nearly all of these retailers will not carry Adult Only (basically like rated X movies - but honestly much more tame than porn in my limited experience of these very rare titles). Additionally, there is no shortage of Teen and Everyone rated games for children to play.

The problem is not an irresponsible industry. In fact, they are just as responsible in their sales as other retailers of adult material. However, the problem is parents.

Parents don't seem to KNOW that Rated M means "Mature" and that Grand Theft Auto may not be the best title for someone under the age of 17.

In any case, Jack Thompson hurts other programs that would like to work to fix the problem by educating parents about these choices. His endless stream of misinformation (he emphasized a review of Killer 7 by quoting a review that stated it had an explicit sex scene. . . In fact, this was 2 fully clothed characters - the nurse "riding" an elderly man in a wheelchair without shots of their pelvic regions. It would probably get rated PG-13 in movie theaters) and hostile and erroneous legal threats (for example, the way he is trying to get an investigation started about harassment. . . that he does not ennumerate and then makes cloudy with irrelevant information. . . Penny Arcade is not ridiculing him for being an activist (misguided or not), but for making a disgusting proposal and then welching on his offer after someone called him on it.

Mr. Thompson's motivations seem clearly to be to grand stand or he would focus on educating parents instead of ignoring the facts and using such poor tactics to meet his end goals.

[xxBlackCrossxx]

I think we should buy JT a DS and a copy of Nintendogs. Let's see if he can pick up the poo on the street!

[Taco]

The thing is his contact information has been plastered all over the web, Slashdot, fark, PA you name it. You can imagine the results.

I'd imagine Jack here blames it all on PA somehow, which is why he brought it to the cops.

That's the closest I can get to seeing his point of view. Ick.

[Royal Fool]

I wonder if his parents are proud of him.

[Taco]

I think Jack killed and ate his parents.

/awaits lawsuit

[thecrazyd]

http://www.megagamerz.com/

[Crispy951]

I say we strap him in a chair and make him play all the GTA (and clones) and make him read all the comics PA has posted about him.

[Murtaug]

Perhaps Evil should write a little letter to Mr. Thompson, unless I am completely mistaken he is some sort of law enforcement officer, correct? Unless of course he is corrupt, and has a lot of partners that fall down stairs onto bullets.

Here we are on a gaming website ran by a guy that works in the law enforcement profession, discussing the lunatic ravings of a guy who thinks video games turn people into cold blooded killers. I can't argue that a few bad seeds out there may have been influenced by video games to go out and do bad things; the same goes for music, movies.. any sort of media at at that. I think in most of those cases though, we were dealing with mental midgets. If you can't differentiate a video game world and the consequences that hold no real bearing, and the world around you where people do not magically appear after waiting to respawn, then you should probably not be walking around free in society; or at the very least, you should be kept a good distance from games.

Sigh, I'm not sure if I just argued for or against this guy, or made myself look like a total idiot. Oh well, the latter it is! I guess that validates his statements, gamers are idiots!

[Taco]

He's a lawyer.

[EternalGamer]

I know every would like to think of Thompson as a raving maniac who has no point, and he certainly has done quite a bit to earn that title with his often bombastic and overly hyperbolic language usage. However, anyone that has actually listened to his arguments (like that 80 minute radio interview that was posted on EA a few days ago) will find quite a different Thompson than the one whose only quotations in the game media stem from those aformentioned hyperboles.

When I listend to that 80 minute interview, the interviewers prefaced with an introduction that indicated that gamers might want to pause the interview at times "in rage" to the proposterous statements made by Thompson. Yet, when it came to the actual interview, Thompson totally and completely schooled the interviewers; they were intellectual lightweights in comparison and and never once seemed to offer a sociological counterargument relying only on the cliche "but it didn't happen to me and I play games" generalization nor did they seem to being to grasp the difference between legal justification and their personal "moral justification," automatically assuming that a case that doens't "seem right" to them has no legal precident. There certainly are intelligent rebuttals one can bring against Thompson's arguments, but I have yet to see them discussed in any of these interviews or by any of the gaming journalists. It actually made me very angry and embarassed listening to that interview because there simply wasn't an intelligent rebuttal being offered.

Rather than offering an actual counterargument, it is much easier to just quote the hyperbolic parts of his arguments out of context, or make fun of his questionably aggressive tactics. This allows everyone to just point and make fun and feel good and smug about their positions without really having to address the problems raised by people like Thompson.

The fact that a lot of people play games and nothing happens to them is not a counterargument to the claim that games can lead to unstable mental conditions in children. George Burns smoked cigars like a chimney and lived to 100, but that doesn't mean cigarettes don't kill people. Where the analogies seem to break down is when we are taking an example of physical causation (ie. smoking leading to cancer) verses mental causation (games leading to violent mental states), which is much more complex and harder to track. However that by no means indicates that there is no connection.

I certainly disagree with the majority of Thompson's previous lawsuits, but I would have to be blind not to admit that not only Rockstar, but most of the other big companies that make M rated games, depend heavily on a minority demographic for their sales. I know the vast majority of their sales are to people over 18, but if only 20% of their market consists of minors, that is still a very large percentage they would not soon want to let go of. How many of us personally have had conversations with 10 or 12 year olds in which they discuss playing Grand Theft Auto? If you think Rockstar doesn't know that these kids are playing their games or that Capcom doesn't bank on the fact that sixth graders think Resident Evil is cool, you are incredibly naive. I definately see the problems Thompson is talking about when he mentions the corruption of having a self regulated industry. We do not want any other industry to "self-regulate" because we know that it most certainly is NOT always in their best interest to do so; it is always in their best interest to "appear" as if they are doing so. But doing and appearing to do are very often two very different things.

I know many of you will respond that it is not the governments job to regulate things and that it is the parents. But clearly there are many cases were we as a society have agreed that the government should step in and legally regulate product consumption by minors such as the cases of tobacco and alcohol. The counterargument would go that other forms of MEDIA are not regulated in this way, but Thompson covers that argument as well when he claims that games have a larger potential to being a harmful influence than other forms of media due to their interactivity, that they deserve special consideration and legislation because of this factor.

I don't agree with the majority of Thompson's views, but for once I would like to see someone actually address the serious parts of his arguments rather than just taking the easy way out and "soundbyting" the hyperboles.

Dan

[xxBlackCrossxx]

http://www.megagamerz.com/


that is amazing.

[NoName]

http://www.megagamerz.com/
See, Jack brings out the best in web comics...

[Taco]

I don't think you can compare it to tobacco and alcohol. Let's say gaming does cause some to go off the deep end. What are the numbers? 1 in a million, 10 million, 100 mllion? And we are to hold video game companies responsible for this? Is there anything in the world that wouldn't apply to this standard?

This is back to the old argument. If a video game causes some to act violently then that person wasn't right in the head to begin with and the responsibilty falls with someone else to care for this person's state of mind.

[xxBlackCrossxx]

Videogames have caused me to have fun and waste time. Time is of the essence, they say time is the fire with which we burn.

I'm suing Meteos.

[bapenguin]

The fact is, we can't hold the video game companies SOLEY responsible for this actions. THere are many other factors that cause people to "go off the deepend" including family situation, socialogical situation and the like. To blame games as the catalyst in these cases 100% of the time is absurd.

[Xerxes]

Eternal I listened to the 80 minutes too. Murder Simulator. Murder Simulator at school. I don't even recall the listed features mentioning murder in the game. Pranks yeah, like calling up JT and getting to call his self Ima Douche. There was alot of other things I just think he it out of line on. And everytime he said Clinton he said it as if to name drop. Does she even associate herself with this fella.

I can't remember all the BS he was talking about but it doesn't change my view on him. I think the one sided quotes fit him very well.

[Malovech]

Blaming them at all is a total waste of time. You can blame the marketing at the wrong age group, but who plays a given game is based on parents and how they raise and watch-over their kids.

[Mondopest]

I love how he thinks people "train" with video games. How lame of an idea is that. Just ask the US Army, which is in the business of killing for a living. Do they have all of their infantry play America's Army then expect them to go out and be all that they can be? Hell no! AA and other video games can only be used to train teamwork and tactics on a conceptual level, not a realistic level. No game can prepare you for the gut-wrenching adrenaline coursing through your body, the recoil of your weapon, how to load or reload one for that matter, the hot sun beating down on your already sweaty brow... This guy still just makes me crazy.

The people who kill others and blame it on or have it blamed on a video game were already extremely disturbed folks. I saw Terminator 2. Does that mean I am going to become a Cyberdyne Systems Model 101 T-800 Terminator with metal endoskeleton and red glowy eyes? Dont get me wrong, that could be very sweet but it just isnt going to happen!

[The Iron Weasel]

I wonder if his parents are proud of him.

Hes the lovechild of Satan and Hitler. And they want to distance themselves from him.

[Taco]

but who plays a given game is based on parents and how they raise and watch-over their kids.

And yet people on this site are are against taking away a child's ability to buy these games ;).

[EternalGamer]

The fact is, we can't hold the video game companies SOLEY responsible for this actions. THere are many other factors that cause people to "go off the deepend" including family situation, socialogical situation and the like. To blame games as the catalyst in these cases 100% of the time is absurd.


I agree but we are not really talking about holding them solely responsible, we are talking about legislating their sale in the marketplace. And maybe as Taco is saying it is only one in ten million. If we were talking about the illegalization of these games altogether, that probably would not be justified in the name of social betterment. But legislating the sell of a product that most would agree don't belong in the hands of a minor anyway? I don't think that requires as much of a direct link to justify implementation.

We certainly do have legal precident in this type of media legislation as well in the the example of the porn industry. If we can justify making it illegal for children to purchase videos detailing something that is a part of biological function of every human being (i.e. sex), it seems to me that the self proclaimed "gun porn" in a game like GUN is definately worth legislation as well.

Dan

[The Iron Weasel]

The people who kill others and blame it on or have it blamed on a video game were already extremely disturbed folks. I saw Terminator 2. Does that mean I am going to become a Cyberdyne Systems Model 101 T-800 Terminator with metal endoskeleton and red glowy eyes? Dont get me wrong, that could be very sweet but it just isnt going to happen!

Speak for yourself bitch....... :D

[xxBlackCrossxx]

All this talk of GTA makes me want to play it again.....Hmmmm I bet rockstar hired JT. Subliminal advertising. Rockstar you are genius #1!

[Taco]

That's another thread altogether Eternal ;). Jack is looking for payouts from video game companies, that in his mind, caused every school shooting and countless murders. He is not only looking to legislate the sale of M rated games to minors.

[askheaves]

You know, Jack, you could abort all the black babies and violent crime would go down too.

[A-Team]

Last I checked, a ;) at the end of a sarcastic comment helps those who don't get sarcasm to get it...hopefully.


;)

See, I did it again.
Emoticons are for morons. Need I say more?

[Taco]

And people that need everything spelled out for them are....




;););)

[Crispy951]

You know, Jack, you could abort all the black babies and violent crime would go down too.

ouch...I wonder if hes ever even played GTA?

[NoName]

No game can prepare you for the gut-wrenching adrenaline coursing through your body, the recoil of your weapon, how to load or reload one for that matter, the hot sun beating down on your already sweaty brow...
You haven't played Duck Hunt have you. Dude, that game has turned me in to a sharp shooting killing machine. And games will teach you how to reload a gun... just shoot away from the target!

[Zeal]

Oh whatever.

::Marrowind Theme::

[EternalGamer]

That's another thread altogether Eternal ;). Jack is looking for payouts from video game companies, that in his mind, caused every school shooting and countless murders. He is not only looking to legislate the sale of M rated games to minors.


Yes, but incase you don't remember, this is how legislation of Big Tobacco started--by attempting to hold big companies responsible for the way they were marketing the products and the results it had on consumers in the marketplace. The two issues are not disconnected. I certainly dont' support every frivolious lawsuit that comes along, but I do believe that the legal system still plays a very important role in attempting to counterbalance the effects of big business in everyday life. The politicains certainly can't play the counterbalancing role. They are too dependant on financing from the lobbyist to play equalizer. As imperfect as it may be, the legal system is the only place where there is still room for a counterbalance to corporate power and its influences.

Dan

[Shodan2020]

I say we post news on him but refer to him by something else other than his real name. That way, when the search engines spider the site he doesn't come up.

I know he is crazy, but here's hoping that Gabe and Tycho are not in over their heads. I mean this guy is a lawyer. It's his job to mess people up.

He's not very good at it. He is however, excellent at messing his own self up. As Tycho says about the letter Mr. Thompson sent. "We've been threatened worse by better."

Bravo to Gabe and Tycho for sticking it to, Mr. Thompson in style.

[Abednigo]

I wonder what he thinks about America's Army...

[Taco]

I understand that, which is why I don't support Jack in any way. Video game companies should in no way be held responsible for what some nut case does.

I thought you were getting into laws that dictate who can and can not buy certain games, which I have a different opinion on and for which there is another thread solely dealing with.

[LilEvilFish]

Oh man that is funny! Boy did he pick the wrong guys to tackle with!

I think we can say PA has quite a large number of people on their side ;)

[Zeal]

Still needs more Morrowind theme.

[Crispy951]

Still needs more Morrowind theme.

::Morrowind theme::

[Abednigo]

Just saw this on Gamespot. What an idiot Jack is.

The e-mail GameSpot received was sent to Penny Arcade creators Mike Krahulik and Jerry Holkins and the site's business development manager, Robert Khoo. Copies of the e-mail were also sent to other media outlets, as well as several addresses at the national law firm Blank Rome LLP. Blank Rome Government Relations represents not only Take-Two Interactive, but also the City of Seattle.

However, it appears Thompson did neglect to send the letter to one very important party. As of 9:55 a.m. PDT, the Seattle Police Department confirmed to GameSpot that it had not received any such fax from Thompson.

Thompson has since e-mailed GameSpot again, saying that he has fixed the URL and apparently faxed the letter, saying "they have it now." Thompson added, "The moral midgets like the computer geeks at Penny Arcade think that I am some sort of pixelated piñata in a game. I'm not. Gabe [the in-comic alter-ego of Penny Arcade artist Krahulik] decided to go after me, and he chose the wrong target. I've been at this longer than he has."

Full article http://www.gamespot.com/news/6135979.html

Does it sound like he's a little flustered? Moral midgets? :rolleyes:

[TheKeck]

I love how he thinks people "train" with video games. How lame of an idea is that. Just ask the US Army, which is in the business of killing for a living. Do they have all of their infantry play America's Army then expect them to go out and be all that they can be? Hell no! AA and other video games can only be used to train teamwork and tactics on a conceptual level, not a realistic level. No game can prepare you for the gut-wrenching adrenaline coursing through your body, the recoil of your weapon, how to load or reload one for that matter, the hot sun beating down on your already sweaty brow... This guy still just makes me crazy.

The people who kill others and blame it on or have it blamed on a video game were already extremely disturbed folks. I saw Terminator 2. Does that mean I am going to become a Cyberdyne Systems Model 101 T-800 Terminator with metal endoskeleton and red glowy eyes? Dont get me wrong, that could be very sweet but it just isnt going to happen!

I couldn't agree more with this. I mean.... your stereotypical gamer isn't exactly the perfect killing machine.

I'm sure the ability to deftly negotiate a recticle by means of a computer mouse translates perfectly to hoofing your butt around and managing a firearm.

[bapenguin]

I agree but we are not really talking about holding them solely responsible, we are talking about legislating their sale in the marketplace. ...

True but the basis for this is because they are supposed to be blamed for it.

[EternalGamer]

I understand that, which is why I don't support Jack in any way. Video game companies should in no way be held responsible for what some nut case does.

I thought you were getting into laws that dictate who can and can not buy certain games, which I have a different opinion on and for which there is another thread solely dealing with.


For me the two areas overlap. It is not that the companies should be directly responsible for the consumer's choice to use their products. It is that they should be help responsible for the way they market and promote their products in the marketplace and the effects that has. I understand the complexities at this point, it is hard to identify where external influences should be considered and where individual responsibility takes up. There is no simple line to be drawn, in my opinion.

However if you can prove that company A has marketed and promoted their product in a socially irresponsible way that has led to harmful results, you can thereby justify the legislation of the sale of that company's products in the future. This type of procedure, in the historical examples of product legislation, this has been the path followed.

Dan

[Zanzibar]

I wonder what he thinks about America's Army...

AMEN. Yeah, you want a murder simulator? There ya go.

[A-Team]

And people that need everything spelled out for them are....




;););)
... able to type out what they mean using words instead of emoticons? What do you want me to say?

[EternalGamer]

True but the basis for this is because they are supposed to be blamed for it.

Partially to blame, yes. Nothing exists in a vacuum.

Dan

[Crispy951]

I understand the idea of regulating certain games to minors, but Thompson is just an asshat and I love how he's making a complete fucking idiot out of himself

[screwtape]

Jack Thompson reminds me of PETA. Some of the things he does and says are so extreme and ridiculous that I have no choice but to write him off as a nutjob and ignore his little crusade, even though his original point may have some validity.

[NoName]

Just saw this on Gamespot. What an idiot Jack is.

Full article http://www.gamespot.com/news/6135979.html

Does it sound like he's a little flustered? Moral midgets? :rolleyes:
That's funny on so many levels. At least forgetting to fax it to the police gave him time to fix the URL... o.0

[Abednigo]

... able to type out what they mean using words instead of emoticons? What do you want me to say?

Am I suppose to put my hands up in the air and say, "I'M JUST KIDDING!!!" everytime I'm sarcastic? I think not.

You don't get jokes do you?

[Varsity]

Jack Thompson reminds me of PETA. Some of the things he does and says are so extreme and ridiculous that I have no choice but to write him off as a nutjob and ignore his little crusade, even though his original point may have some validity.
This is what I hate most about him. He's trampled all over and blown out of proportion a perfectly real issue.

[EternalGamer]

"The moral midgets like the computer geeks at Penny Arcade think that I am some sort of pixelated piñata in a game.

Props for the clever phrasing and illiteration. I'd like more of this witty repartee from both sides. The PA guys are still ahead in this exchange game, but I think Thompson deserves some credit for that line.

I would still prefer an actual dialogue on both sides to this verbal jousting. But hey, if you live in a hyper-media culture, you might as well at least enjoy the show.

Dan

[Kefkataran]

You don't get jokes do you?

Hahahahaha.

A-Team for the win, if you ask me.

On-topic: Penny Arcade = love. That is all.

[EternalGamer]

This is what I hate most about him. He's trampled all over and blown out of proportion a perfectly real issue.


I agree. But I think the media is equally to blame for the hyperbole. They eat this stuff up. Unfortunately it is he who shouts the loudest that gets the headlines, not he who is most articulate.

In regards to the PETA comment, I again certainly don't agree with everything they do, but I think it is important to have that voice out there. You need someone out there pushing those types of boundaries so that we can actually have a dialogue about why they exist.

Dan

[Taco]

PA's site getting hammered? Was running a bit slow for me.

[NoName]

I would still prefer an actual dialogue on both sides to this verbal jousting. But hey, if you live in a hyper-media culture, you might as well at least enjoy the show.
I would prefer an actual dialogue too. The problem is, I don't think that's what Jack wants, which makes things difficult. As Gabe just posted not to long ago...
Some people have suggested that it might be time to start ignoring the guy and honestly that’s what we had decided to do. However, that was before he tried to have us arrested. Jack is not scary, if you speak to him for even a couple minutes you realize that. What’s scary is that people in the mainstream media listen to him. I don’t think we can just ignore him anymore.

[A-Team]

Am I suppose to put my hands up in the air and say, "I'M JUST KIDDING!!!" everytime I'm sarcastic? I think not.

You don't get jokes do you?
No, just throwing a curveball at the thread to see what kind of response I can elicit.

I'm feeling the effects of being deprived of the attention I deserved as a child, so bear with me.

[Taco]

Lifted from slashdot:

Jack Thompson takes on a 14 year old girl (http://croqaudile.com/?article_id=10299)

[NoName]

PA's site getting hammered? Was running a bit slow for me.
The first part of Gabe's post that I omitted from the quote I just posted... :D
I just wanted to make a quick note that the page may be up and down today. The server is getting slammed pretty hard. I just wanted to make sure you knew that if the page was down it’s not because of Jack. Well not directly anyway.

[EternalGamer]

I would prefer an actual dialogue too. The problem is, I don't think that's what Jack wants, which makes things difficult. As Gabe just posted not to long ago...

I admit to not having read a lot of the stuff Thompson may have wrote, but I do keep up with gaming news and have read all the soundbytes. My problem is, when I actually heard the guy talking on that radio show, he was (ironically enough) the one that was making a coherant argument. There was some charged language in his comments, but there seemed to be an actual attempt on his part to make the interviewer understand the severity of the pending issue at hand. I would highly recommend anyone hunting down that interview and listen to it in total, ignoring temporarily the phrases such as "murder simulator" that he likes to throw around, he makes valid points and actual rebutts the statements of his interviewer in a coherant fashion. You can tell the interviewers are both flustered at their inability to counterargue his claims effectively. In this one instance at least, he was definately the one attempting a cogent dialogue.

Dan

[i aint yer pa]

sigh, how did he ever pass the bar?That's what's so great! Read the first chapter of his autobiography. (Link (http://www.tyndale.com/products/details.asp?isbn=1-4143-0442-0)) He didn't pass it on his first try.

Insert your own "Pwned" joke here.

[EternalGamer]

Lifted from slashdot:

Jack Thompson takes on a 14 year old girl (http://croqaudile.com/?article_id=10299)


... And wins. Another suck argument. Why can't anyone competant take this guy on.

Dan

[NoName]

That's what's so great! Read the first chapter of his autobiography. (Link (http://www.tyndale.com/products/details.asp?isbn=1-4143-0442-0)) He didn't pass it on his first try.

Insert your own "Pwned" joke here.
I could be remembering something else, but isn't that common? From what I understand the bar exam is pretty hard...

[NoName]

... And wins. Another suck argument. Why can't anyone competant take this guy on.

Dan
Wait... what? I had clicked onto the next page before what you wrote sunk in. I just assumed you meant the girl wins until I really read it. How does him resorting to telling her to check into a mental hospital constitute as winning...

[BadVoodoo]

Every time I read something of Jacks I get the distinct impression that I'm reading someone’s 6th grade English paper. I don't understand how a lawyer can have such poor writing skills. Then again he's obviously not the fastest ship in the fleet...

[i aint yer pa]

I could be remembering something else, but isn't that common? From what I understand the bar exam is pretty hard...
Yeah I would hope it's pretty hard, but you might be thinking about the CPA exam. That has a pretty high failure rate.

[askheaves]

Even if it were demonstrably true that video games were the sole culpret in every single case where a minor violently murdered somebody, cops included, and video games were even suggested as a cause, I would not indict the video game industry. Whether or not it affects kids minds is not in question to me. The frequency does not raise to the level of a significant problem enough that you would eliminate choices for the 100+ million gamers just here, or stifle the speech of artists/developers making games and build a potential legal minefield to navigate.

Corporations are allowed to sell products in America which have hazards associated with them. Cigarettes, bullets, booze, automobiles, knives, Christianity, chlorine bleach, etc. It's fundamentally the rights of a company to sell a product which, when properly used, presents an understandable level of risk which the consumer is willing to accept. If the consumer is too young to understand the risk, then they should have somebody over 18 who should have been monitoring their decisions since their birth.

We outlawed Lawn Darts because they were dangerous well beyond any acceptable entertainment value. That's well on the other end of the scale as video games.

[TheKeck]

PA's site getting hammered? Was running a bit slow for me.

That's funny to me. I have seen many times when a site gets hammered because PA linked them, bet never the other way around.

[Ernst_Jager]

The PA guys are a real class act and a model to us all.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

I'm confused. How could the fax have been posted on PA at 6 PM yesterday when Gamespot (who sent it to PA in the first place) didn't receive it until this morning? Are the timestamps on PA inaccurate?

[EternalGamer]

Wait... what? I had clicked onto the next page before what you wrote sunk in. I just assumed you meant the girl wins until I really read it. How does him resorting to telling her to check into a mental hospital constitute as winning...


Actually, I overstated. Probably more a draw. I was just annoyed by her "NUh UH... BUT IT DIDN"T HAPPEN TO MEEE!" argument and her absurdly long explanation about how game violence is not "real world" violence. I"m not sure who she thinks she is explaining that to, because I certainly never heard Thompson making the retarded argument that killing in games is the exact same as killing in real life. That whole paragraph was pointless. It was always obvious that Thompson was concerned with the moral and psychological inhibitions to violence which games might breakdown. The fact that Thompson had to actually explain this to her this was incredibly stupid.

She then accuses him of going off topic and evading her argument, while she does the same thing when she proceeds to parade out all the hyperbolic comments he has made in lieu of actually responding to his argument that there needs to be legal restrictions on game purchase. She does claims that she doesn't believe in restricting the videogame industry in anyway because "It should be noted that any federal interference with the video game industry would go down in my book as a violation of freedom of speech, which is something I dissaprove of under all circumstances." But her argument never takes into consideration the countless number of "freedoms" which are legislated in the name of the social good. In fact, it doesn't even show an awareness of this problem.

I'll admit that his response that she should check into a mental hospital is neither witty nor substantial, but I get the sense that he had written her off at that point as a waste of time, which, if what I read was any indication, she probably was.

The last point he made is particularly relevent. While the game community wants to make fun of him, pat themselves on the back for all thinking alike and call it day, Jack is getting articles published in mainstream media outlets. These are articles are not being published because he is an incoherant wacko (though some of his statements, again are very hyperbolic). They are being published because he making claims that are not sucessfully being rebutted about the need for a external ratings system and government legislation limiting the sell of games to minors.

Dan

[EternalGamer]

Even if it were demonstrably true that video games were the sole culpret in every single case where a minor violently murdered somebody, cops included, and video games were even suggested as a cause, I would not indict the video game industry. Whether or not it affects kids minds is not in question to me. The frequency does not raise to the level of a significant problem enough that you would eliminate choices for the 100+ million gamers just here, or stifle the speech of artists/developers making games and build a potential legal minefield to navigate.

Corporations are allowed to sell products in America which have hazards associated with them. Cigarettes, bullets, booze, automobiles, knives, Christianity, chlorine bleach, etc. It's fundamentally the rights of a company to sell a product which, when properly used, presents an understandable level of risk which the consumer is willing to accept. If the consumer is too young to understand the risk, then they should have somebody over 18 who should have been monitoring their decisions since their birth.

We outlawed Lawn Darts because they were dangerous well beyond any acceptable entertainment value. That's well on the other end of the scale as video games.


Who is calling for the illegalization for videogames as a whole? Uh.. nobody that's who. All those examples you gave are examples of products whose sale has been regulated in some fashion. That is the same thing that is being discussed here. Regulation, not illegalization. You are just making a strawman out the oppositions argument which does nothing to respond to its claims.

Dan

[Xerxes]

Jack links things that makes zero sense. Like the Washington snipers. The old dude is a pro sniper. Jack goes and blame it on a copy of Halo somebody found. Which is really more likely here? The boy learning from his sharpshooting uncle or sitting down to a game of halo. I don't recall reports of him going to squat on his kills.

[Ventura_DK]

Dear Mr. Thompson. Games do not kill people, weapons do. Fight the National Rifle Association (NRA) if you wanna stop killings instead of the games industry. Look at Europe - we play as many games as the American's, yet we never have these school shootings. You know why? Cause it's damn nearly impossible to get your hands on a gun, and the only way to get anything more dangerous than hunting rifles/guns is to get them illegally. I can name ONE crime related gang fight involving a machine gun in Denmark so far in 2005. How many have you seen in Los Angeles this past week?

So, Mr. Thompson. Fight guns, not games.

[A-Team]

Hi Jack. If you're reading this, I thought I'd let you know that this piece of paper sitting beside me that says "Midterm Exam" really hates you. It told me that you were a crooked bastard that could give a damn about underprivaleged citizens who were unfortunate enough to slip through the cracks and find themselves on the verge of dying due to insufficient food, water, and/or health care.

If you happen to disagree with my paper's statement and care to contact my piece of paper labeled "Midterm Exam", then by all means, send it a copy of your "Crooked Attorney at Law" notice so that you may be able to sleep easier at night.

Sincerely,

Religion and Science STS2464 Midterm Exam

[earthworm48]

The effect on kids thing reminds me of a guy at a comedy club a few years back, ( he was probably 20 something plus)

"Have you heard about all this with video games affecting kids? I think its ridiculous. Look at the games we had! If they affected us we'd all be walking around darkened rooms, listening to repetitive music and popping pills! Oh, wait a minute...."

With regards to Pacman and Clubbing if you need to be told. I thought it was quite funny.

[Xerxes]

Wait you mean Pinky the Ghost was all in Pac-Man's mind?

[critch]

I would think the "It didn't happen to me" argument is the best argument that can be made. There are millions and millions of gamers that have never hurt anyone, yet they are being lumped into the incredibly small minority of those that have. Gaming as a whole, and gamers along with it, is being dragged through the mud by this Leiberman wanna-be, and the worst part is that it's <i>working.</i> Look how out of control the "Hot Coffee" thing got. Look how it's effecting games being released here now. (Indigo Prophecy, for one.)

Worse than that, you need to look at this glorified ambulance chaser's motives for doing this. He's the same type of guy that chased after comic books and Dungeons and Dragons in earlier years, and IS the guy that said rap music was evil. You know that useless Parental advisory sticker on cds? His.

If Thompson gets his way, gaming will not only be sanitized for children, but made for children only. No matter that the vast majority of games sold ARE NOT TO CHILDREN. The hobby that you say would be 'eternal' would be torn down as if we're living in Salem in the 1700's, with 'violent' video games burned at the stake.

He may sound good on that radio show, but his actions everywhere else has shown his character to be poor at best. I read that bit with the girl too. Only one of the two sounded like an intelligent adult, and it wasn't him.

The fallout with this will be interesting to see. Surely PA's lawyers are watching this closely, and I'd love nothing more than to see him drug through the courts for this harrassment. Even more interesting is how he and Hilary are linked together. If she does run for President, I believe that she'll lose a large chunk of young votes just because of this.

EternalGamer, all you've shown is that he can sound good on a radio program. The 14 year old came off better for that email exchange, and he has continually proved there and everywhere else that he has a poorly written, poorly worded vendetta against gaming of any type. He is so incredibly wrong at everything that he says that it is incredible to behold.

He wants kids to not have access to games. Fine. We have a rating system. ENFORCE IT. But that's not all he wants, he wants to tell me what I can and can't play, and that's bullshit. Keep you and your government friends out of my life, Mr. Thompson, I haven't hurt anyone. And neither has gaming.

Want to do something, how about getting PARENTS to PARENT.

[Sloth]

This guy is almost a caricature of himself. He seems to be purposely playing into the wacko right wing bible thumper with glee. It's almost like some kind of ultra elaborate viral campaign by Rockstar to market GTA and other violent games.

[Xerxes]

I doubt Take Two could even fathom making Jack Thompson into a viral campaign. But Gabe is right, we can't ingore this guy he isn't going anywhere until his self-destruction is complete.

[critch]

Dear Mr. Thompson. Games do not kill people, weapons do. Fight the National Rifle Association (NRA) if you wanna stop killings instead of the games industry. Look at Europe - we play as many games as the American's, yet we never have these school shootings. You know why? Cause it's damn nearly impossible to get your hands on a gun, and the only way to get anything more dangerous than hunting rifles/guns is to get them illegally. I can name ONE crime related gang fight involving a machine gun in Denmark so far in 2005. How many have you seen in Los Angeles this past week?

So, Mr. Thompson. Fight guns, not games.

Weapons kill people? All by themselves? Oh wait, PEOPLE kill people. Weapons are just a tool to do it. Damn efficient tool, but a tool none the less.

I've certainly never heard of any violence in Europe...
:rolleyes:

[dr_wily]

Not only is he crazy and writes letters like a 5th grader, he's also a liar:

http://www.vgcats.com/jack.php

[bapenguin]

His emails to everyone come off as so cocky and arrogant.

[EternalGamer]

If Thompson gets his way, gaming will not only be sanitized for children, but made for children only. No matter that the vast majority of games sold ARE NOT TO CHILDREN. The hobby that you say would be 'eternal' would be torn down as if we're living in Salem in the 1700's, with 'violent' video games burned at the stake.

Thompson, to my knowledge, has never claimed he wanted to illegalize violent videogames, but rather limit their purchasability by minors and hold certain companies responsible for marketing their products towards them. I think your Salem analogy is beyond over dramatic; it is not even applicable.


He wants kids to not have access to games. Fine. We have a rating system. ENFORCE IT. But that's not all he wants, he wants to tell me what I can and can't play, and that's bullshit. Keep you and your government friends out of my life, Mr. Thompson, I haven't hurt anyone. And neither has gaming.


Again, Enforcing it IS what he claims he wants. I certainly cannot read his mind for unstated agendas, but neither can you. What we know is that (1) he has claimed he wants to illegalize the selling of violent videogames to minors , (2) he wantes an independant ratings board to rate videogames, not one funded by the industry, and (3) he wants companies who he thinks have marketed their violent product towards minors to be held accountable. Those are the things he has plainly stated as being in his agenda. Those are what we know he stands for. He has never said anything about wanting to illegalize violent videogames.

Dan

[drakkarim]

i think both sides are full of shit on this one, the guy for spouting off and the gaming industry for thinking it can spew shit (some of these so called 'games') left and right and claiming its their god given right to do so.

[Major Dan]

The counterargument would go that other forms of MEDIA are not regulated in this way, but Thompson covers that argument as well when he claims that games have a larger potential to being a harmful influence than other forms of media due to their interactivity, that they deserve special consideration and legislation because of this factor.

Dan


You bring up some good points, but people always say books are the most dynamic and vivid way to tell a story because you paint the picture in your own mind. Just because I control the character in the game environment doesn't mean I live the moment more intensely, in fact I lose track of the background when I am intently playing a game. Also, if your story is told from a certain point of view wouldn't it be all right to fight with your adversary wether it was cops or bad guys. If that make sense.

Also, I would argue that books are ever more accessible due to price, libraries, and the fact they have been around for a much longer time then games. I certainely wouldn't want my son to read Wizard's First Rule, but he could easily buy it in a bookstore or check it out from the library. Great book but it is for a mature audience. I don't know if this holds water.

Lastly watch a movie like SIN City and tell me it doesn't influence you more then a game? I found that movie very disturbing, I enjoyed it, but it was very disturbing to me none the less. Look at Badder Santa, that was so wrong on so many levels I was surprised they made it, but I certainly enjoyed it. Neither one of those movies would be good for kids in my opinion.

[Selar]

Everyone needs to stop comparing the restriction on cigarettes and alcohol to this. They have specific and well documented physical ailments associated with them that a significantly large percentage of the users develop. The mental problems that get associated with gaming tend to have poor research behind them (correllation vs. causation problems usually) and do not explain away the fact that tens of millions of gamers lead perfectly normal lives.

[reimomo]

Thompson, to my knowledge, has never claimed he wanted to illegalize violent videogames, but rather limit their purchasability by minors and hold certain companies responsible for marketing their products towards them.

Again, Enforcing it IS what he claims he wants. I certainly cannot read his mind for unstated agendas, but neither can you. What we know is that (1) he has claimed he wants to illegalize the selling of violent videogames to minors , (2) he wantes an independant ratings board to rate videogames, not one funded by the industry, and (3) he wants companies who he thinks have marketed their violent product towards minors to be held accountable.
Dan

But he has said that violent videogames are such a pervasive influence on our poor youth that they can be excused of multiple homocide if you find a copy of GTA in their basement. So who, exactly, should have the legal right to own and operate such dangerous filth?

I realize this is the land of the handgun, but I doubt that Mr. Thompson would stop if the federal government legislated standards for a gaming rating system. To my knowledge, such a system does NOT exist for the movie industry. Does the teller at my local theatre go to jail if she lets a 12 year old watch Kill Bill?

And returning to the big tobacco example from a few pages ago... when exactly did Jack Thompson prove that
1) video games cause kill people, and
2) the entire video game industry KNEW that Grand Theft Auto was killing people, lied about it, and bribed the government authorities to lie about it?

When, exactly, did the medical community prove beyond a doubt that games cause little johnny to drive-by his elementary school with the same certainty that we now know ciggarettes cause cancer?

This sort of "blame X for my child being crazy or abused or both" attitude about theatre, sculpture, pen and paper role playing games, and video games has been around for a long time. It used to be women in pants that were causing the Moral Decline of America. Stand up for your rights, and stand up against instigators like Jack Thompson. I should have the right, as an adult, to play violent video games. I should also have the right to raise my children the way I see fit, and not bow down to some total crackpot's federally legislated idea of what is appropriate. (whether that be religious, moral, or plain old pigheaded crackpottery)

[EternalGamer]

You bring up some good points, but people always say books are the most dynamic and vivid way to tell a story because you paint the picture in your own mind. Just because I control the character in the game environment doesn't mean I live the moment more intensely, in fact I lose track of the background when I am intently playing a game. Also, if your story is told from a certain point of view wouldn't it be all right to fight with your adversary wether it was cops or bad guys. If that make sense.

This would be true if you assumed children can understand this sort of contextualization. But I would even find it questionable that it would be "ok" to shoot "bad guys" if you were playing the cop. But the point is in a book, the reader is not directly associated with the characters, they do not directly live vicariously through them. When a character in a book shoots someone, it is clear that the reader (in most cases) is not doing that shooting also. In a game this becomes much more complicated. That is why I can understand Thompson's point about games being a special sort of media.


Also, I would argue that books are ever more accessible due to price, libraries, and the fact they have been around for a much longer time then games. I certainely wouldn't want my son to read Wizard's First Rule, but he could easily buy it in a bookstore or check it out from the library. Great book but it is for a mature audience. I don't know if this holds water.

Lastly watch a movie like SIN City and tell me it doesn't influence you more then a game? I found that movie very disturbing, I enjoyed it, but it was very disturbing to me none the less. Look at Badder Santa, that was so wrong on so many levels I was surprised they made it, but I certainly enjoyed it. Neither one of those movies would be good for kids in my opinion.

[/quote]

We usually legislate based not upon how much of a problem something might become, but based on how big a problem it already is. For example, I think we could all agree that drinking bleach would be much more harmful to children than playing any videogame or watching any film. However, most kids have no desire to drink bleach, so we don't really need special legislation preventing children from purchasing bleach. Similarly, most kids don't care about books today (unfortunately), and certainly not books with sophisticated themes. And I would also doubt many of them have seen Sin City (though certainly some have). But a very large percentage of the twelve year old boys have probably played Resident Evil or Grand Theft Auto. Videogames have become a very prominent form of entertainment for younger generations. And I would argue, they are becoming even more prominent than when we were kids. This causes games to be in a special situition, possibly needing special legislation to deal with the problems this new fantastic form of media has brought with it.

Dan

[Selar]

Oh, and as to the argument about the immersive factor of controlling the violence in a video game, that can also be turned around the other way. I may want to kill a bad guy a certain way, say with the broken bottle on the table, but the game won't let me pick it up. Or I may want to try to sneak up behind the bad guy and kill him quietly, but the game doesn't have AI for sneaking. Games can remove the immersion by their restrictions as easily as creating immersion through allowing you to control the action.

[Selar]

This would be true if you assumed children can understand this sort of contextualization. But I would even find it questionable that it would be "ok" to shoot "bad guys" if you were playing the cop. But the point is in a book, the reader is not directly associated with the characters, they do not directly live vicariously through them. When a character in a book shoots someone, it is clear that the reader (in most cases) is not doing that shooting also. In a game this becomes much more complicated. That is why I can understand Thompson's point about games being a special sort of media.

I think this is part of the problem. Everyone assumes that children and young adults have difficulty abstracting the game from reality. I don't think I've ever met a kid that has this problem. Besides what's the difference between blurring the reality line in a game and playing cops and robbers? Kids understand what pretend is because they use it constantly in their play.

[DannoHung]

Once someone establishes an actual correlation between playing violent videogames and committing acts of aggression, I'll stop looking at Jack Thompson as a ludicrous figure attempting to bend the fear of the public towards his own end.

Please note that I'm saying "committing acts of agression" as opposed to "increased aggression". Bonus points if you can find evidence about long term effects!

[EternalGamer]

But he has said that violent videogames are such a pervasive influence on our poor youth that they can be excused of multiple homocide if you find a copy of GTA in their basement. So who, exactly, should have the legal right to own and operate such dangerous filth?

I realize this is the land of the handgun, but I doubt that Mr. Thompson would stop if the federal government legislated standards for a gaming rating system. To my knowledge, such a system does NOT exist for the movie industry. Does the teller at my local theatre go to jail if she lets a 12 year old watch Kill Bill?

I have said frm the very beginning that I do not condone Thompson's use of hyperbole. But I think that is every bit as much the fault of the media for valuing he who screams loudest over he who is most articulate. Thompson didn't make those rules, he just seems to be playing by them.

In regards to the film industry analogy, as I have stated, I am uncertain where I stand on the legistlation personally, but I do think games are a special type of media that deserve special consideration for the reasons I have listed above.

In regards to the causality arguments, I don't disagree that there can never be a direct line of association between the media and the actions of individuals, real life certainly doesn't work in that simplistic way, but neither do the individuals actions (especially a minors) exist in a vacuum. If you want an example of how we legislate without a direct principle of causation look a the legislation of the porn industry. I personally think that if we deem something that is a result of natural biological function as "unacceptable" to sell to minors, then the self proclaimed "gun porn" gameplay of GUN should certainly be worth legislating.

Dan

[EternalGamer]

I think this is part of the problem. Everyone assumes that children and young adults have difficulty abstracting the game from reality. I don't think I've ever met a kid that has this problem. Besides what's the difference between blurring the reality line in a game and playing cops and robbers? Kids understand what pretend is because they use it constantly in their play.

Uh.. when we play cops and robbers and you shoot me, I fall backwards and play dead. when you are playing Resident Evil and shoot something, bloody chunks of that things head go flying across the room and you feel the kickback of the shotgun. With games becoming more and more hyper-realistic this is going to be a growing problem until it is addressed. You do not have to argue that all kids that play these games grow up to be psychos in order to claim that this sort of material should not be in the hands of a ten year old.

Dan

[xxBlackCrossxx]

man i really hate jack thompson.

[EternalGamer]

Once someone establishes an actual correlation between playing violent videogames and committing acts of aggression, I'll stop looking at Jack Thompson as a ludicrous figure attempting to bend the fear of the public towards his own end.

Please note that I'm saying "committing acts of agression" as opposed to "increased aggression". Bonus points if you can find evidence about long term effects!

Since it might be hard to find a study that shows that viewing pornography always makes children grow up to be serial rapist, I am guessing you would feel the same way about legislation of that industry? Should we make it legal for little kids to buy a copy of "Grandpas Anal Fuck Teen Sluts Vol 4"?

I suppose someone who was part of the porn industry or who had spent a lot of time around it, wouldn't think it was such a big deal for kids to see that stuff, but the average person in the populace (including many of us) might be horrified at the suggestion that it is "ok" for kids to view that sort of material. Similarly, as people who play games everyday, we might not see the problem with letting kids see Kratos rip the wings off a harpy. But the average person outside is likely to look at that same image and be horrified at our suggestion that it is "no big deal."

Dan

[Taco]

Uh.. when we play cops and robbers and you shoot me, I fall backwards and play dead. when you are playing Resident Evil and shoot something, bloody chunks of that things head go flying across the room and you feel the kickback of the shotgun.

But it's not REAL and no one except for the most deranged mentally sick people out there will interpret it as anything else. There is a fundemental gap between where you and Jack stand and where everyone else does. And it's not closing.

[XenonCJ]

Dear Mr. Thompson. Games do not kill people, weapons do. Fight the National Rifle Association (NRA) if you wanna stop killings instead of the games industry. Look at Europe - we play as many games as the American's, yet we never have these school shootings. You know why? Cause it's damn nearly impossible to get your hands on a gun, and the only way to get anything more dangerous than hunting rifles/guns is to get them illegally. I can name ONE crime related gang fight involving a machine gun in Denmark so far in 2005. How many have you seen in Los Angeles this past week?

So, Mr. Thompson. Fight guns, not games.Last I checked you don't need a gun to kill someone.

Would you automatically feel compelled to shoot someone if you had a gun in your hand?

Europe is a lot different than the USA in population distribution. Just look at any large city in the USA. You'll find Chinatowns, Hispanic areas, black areas, white areas.... But there's never a clean line between it all. It's all mixed and melted together. They didn't call the Americas the New World for nothing. You don't see those distributions typicaly in Europe. Ever heard the term "Melting Pot" as a description of the USA? What that means is, over the past 400 years TONS of different cultures, ideas, populations, races, religions, have come, competed, and blended together in the USA. This very same "Melting" has lead to a LOT of America's greatness. This "melting" is not a clean process and can lead to violence on occasion as well.

There are other reasons for violence as well, however the gun by itself is not one of them.

[Taco]

Let's drop the retarded gun argument. I knew that was going to happen the second it was initally brought up.

[EternalGamer]

But it's not REAL and no one except for the most deranged mentally sick people out there will interpret it as anything else. There is a fundemental gap between where you and Jack stand and where everyone else does. And it's not closing.

I don't understand this argument that it is "not real" and therefore ok for kids to play, especially considering games exagerate violent actions to the point to where violent acts look hyper-realistic. I suppose it would be ok for you to tell a kid a story about a girl that was brutally raped and had her cunt cut out and eaten just because it was a "made up" story? "Real" or not, videogames are getting viscious and nasty now-a-days, and we have to face that fact. I am not by any means saying we should censor or eliminate these games' existence, but we also can not shrugg of what kids have access to simply because of the arbitrary distinction that it is a fictional event.

Dan

[Farrok]

Once someone establishes an actual correlation between playing violent videogames and committing acts of aggression, I'll stop looking at Jack Thompson as a ludicrous figure attempting to bend the fear of the public towards his own end.


Be careful of your wording, here. I can establish a correlation between drinking water and murdering people, because (most likely) every single murderer has consumed a glass of water.

As sad as it is that most children aren't interested in reading and will therefore not be as likely to purchase a rather violent book like Wizard's First Rule, I disagree with Dan's suggestion that readers do not live vicariously through the characters of a story. A good writer will put the reader right in the character's head in such a manner that the reader experiences every detail the character does. When Richard gets sprayed in blood after decapitating his foes in righteous anger, Farrok feels the blood and the anger just as much (although much less so in Mr. Goodkinds latest novels, but thats neither here nor there.) I can only speak from my own experience and that of my girlfriend; however, when I read I don't see the words, I see the world. By contrast, in a game if I kill someone and their blood sprays all over the screen obscuring the view, it's done just that: obscured the view with reddish pixels. I see the simulated world as though I was looking at the words of a book, rather than living the life of the character. The levels of immersion are hardly comparable. Or maybe I just get too into what I read :). At any rate, I'm sure I'm not the only person who gets this sense.

I suppose my point is that I've been gaming as long as I've been reading. Its rather rare that one actually pays attention to the words of sentence in and of themselves. Its the internalization of the words by the brain that all but removes them from existence. All that one sees is their meaning. The constant focus on the "WOW-new-graphics" of a computer game and the CGI in a movie show that that immediate internalization of the world is no where near the same. A book transports you to a world, and a game merely allows you interact with it. Which of these is more likely to cause psychological damage on the level of blurring reality and fiction? In my estimation, if Mr. Thompson is worried about the detrimental effect games can have on a developing mind, he should be at least as worried about violent books. Bottom line: books have been through their discriminatory phase. Mr. Thompson is merely attacking the latest media technology, in a manner consistent throughout the history of humanity.

[critch]

Eternal, I can't believe you're actually wasting your time bothering to defend him. Nothing he has EVER done has ever suggested that he cares about anything but getting rid of what he considers violent and immoral games. Including THE SIMS. He views all of us, including you, with disgust and scorn, and you're here standing up for him.

From Wikipedia, not the best source but the quickest.

He has invoked broad negative stereotypes against gamers in general. For example, in an e-mail correspondence with Scott Ramsoomair, he questions: "HOnestly [sic], are all of you gamers on drugs, or what?"[3]. In a correspondence with Ryan Acheson (Gaming writer for The Horror Channel’s Dread Central), where Ryan Acheson is supporting Thompson's intentions to make games rate M inaccessible to children, he identifies "gamers' ideas" as "the latest oxymoron"[4].

• Thompson describes video games with violent or competitive content as 'murder simulators' and 'sexual simulators'. He usually describes violent or sexual content as being 'dirty and yet highly arousing'.
• Thompson asserts that young persons accused of violent crimes have 'trained' or 'rehearsed' their actions using 'murder simulators'.
• Thompson asserts that video games are used by the military to desensitize and remove the inhibition to kill. There is no evidence of any commercial game being used for this purpose by military forces anywhere in the world. The source of this misinformation is most likely the literature of Dave Grossman, a fellow censorship advocate.
• Thompson frequently refers to medical studies that he claims scientifically prove that there is a link between violent media and aggressive behaviour. Although he has used several variations of this argument, a statement on his website is typical of the approach taken:
• "Recent medical brain scan studies at Harvard and Indiana University prove ... children's brain functions are damaged by a steady diet of violent images and messages."
• The Indiana University study makes no mention of children's brain functions being 'damaged' by exposure to violent media. It is mentioned that "there is a difference in the brain activation patterns of youths with Disruptive Behaviour Disorder and those without when exposed to a specific stimulus", but it is not explicitly claimed that there is a correlation between exposure to violent media and brain activity.
• Furthermore this study was funded by "Center for Successful Parenting" (a lobby group campaigning against media violence), which Thompson neglects to mention.
• Thompson states as fact that games with adult content are developed for and marketed to children.


And to further discredit anything he puts out there...

In 1988 Thompson was the unsuccessful Republican challenger to Janet Reno for the Office of Dade County State Attorney. Following this, as the "Man in Miami" for NewsMax.com, he made a series of allegations [1] regarding Reno, met with incredulity in the press [2], claiming among other things that: she was a closet lesbian suffering from various mental disorders as side effects of Parkinson's medication, and that she was being blackmailed by the Mafia.

Would you LOOK at who you're defending? Jesus. If you think for one second that he doesn't want to get rid of gaming in totality, you're deluded. If your speech was a little worse, I'd think you were him.

It's a shame you defend him so much. He certainly wouldn't do the same for you.

[Zeal]

Why the hell is every post in this thread a thesis essay.

Shit is turning into the Dead Sea Scrolls.

[Farrok]

I don't understand this argument that it is "not real" and therefore ok for kids to play, especially considering games exagerate violent actions to the point to where violent acts look hyper-realistic. I suppose it would be ok for you to tell a kid a story about a girl that was brutally raped and had her cunt cut out and eaten just because it was a "made up" story? "Real" or not, videogames are getting viscious and nasty now-a-days, and we have to face that fact. I am not by any means saying we should censor or eliminate these games' existence, but we also can not shrugg of what kids have access to simply because of the arbitrary distinction that it is a fictional event.

Dan

I agree with your point, but I don't think legislation is the appropriate response, and Jack Thompson's grandstanding is certainly not the route to a successful and meaningful dialogue. At best legislation simply makes it impossible for the 16-17 year olds to buy a video game, while sacrificing one of the fundamental tenants of the US constitution and the supposed culture the US regarding personal responsibility. The younger and more maleable minds still are by and large unable to get to a store to buy a game with Mom or Dad's assistance. Further, most pre-teens probably do not have the funds to buy a game even if they could get a ride there. The final option is piracy, which legislation regarding the sale of games to minors can do nothing to curtail. Parents must be expected to pay attention to their kids.

[Farrok]

Why the hell is every post in this thread a thesis essay.

Shit is turning into the Dead Sea Scrolls.

lol, probably because Eternal's defense of Jack began by requesting a more thoughtful response than a one line "It didn't happen to me." Maybe someone planning to publish rebuttals can find some good arguments!

[DaedalusFolly]

I find it eminently distasteful that in his fax he writes "shot in the head" when referring to the officers killed (the matter of his wrongful death suit). Surely their untimely demise could have been equally conveyed without resorting to, ironically, a graphic depiction of a violent act.

[EternalGamer]

Would you LOOK at who you're defending? Jesus. If you think for one second that he doesn't want to get rid of gaming in totality, you're deluded. If your speech was a little worse, I'd think you were him.

It's a shame you defend him so much. He certainly wouldn't do the same for you.

All of the things you quoted are the reasons why I prefaced my original comments with "I certainly don't agree with all the things he has promoted in the past." I probably should have been stronger in stating my disagreement with his positions/actions, but I wanted to emphasize the ideas he was putting out in this debate, as I heard them, not engage in a defamation of character, which doesn't get anyone anywhere, but makes a lot of people feel they are on the moral high ground.

Whether or not he would defend me, was not the point. The point was that, in the current debate, the game media and gamers response has been as unintelligible as his own as often been, in my opinion, actually worse. People have emphasized the hyperbole of his comments while completely disregarding the actual substance of his comments. My frustration was not so much that people were character assasinating him, but that they were doing so in lieu of actually addressing the issue at hand.

Dan

[NoName]

Why the hell is every post in this thread a thesis essay.

Shit is turning into the Dead Sea Scrolls.
I'd have to agree with Farrok and say Eternal's responces. Then again, this is what I like about EA, there's the possiblity of intellectual discussion that doesn't involve some insane amount of leet speak.

Edit: And I give mad props to Eternal for supporting a decent discussion on this matter, even if he's the only one supporting his side... (aside from Jack, of course).

[EternalGamer]

I agree with your point, but I don't think legislation is the appropriate response, and Jack Thompson's grandstanding is certainly not the route to a successful and meaningful dialogue. At best legislation simply makes it impossible for the 16-17 year olds to buy a video game, while sacrificing one of the fundamental tenants of the US constitution and the supposed culture the US regarding personal responsibility. The younger and more maleable minds still are by and large unable to get to a store to buy a game with Mom or Dad's assistance. Further, most pre-teens probably do not have the funds to buy a game even if they could get a ride there. The final option is piracy, which legislation regarding the sale of games to minors can do nothing to curtail. Parents must be expected to pay attention to their kids.

I am not certain that legislating is the definitive answer either. However, my experience with my youngest brother, my nephew, and pretty much every other little kid I have talked with in the last year tells me that this "rate it and leave it up to the parents" stuff isn't working. Unlike the violent books, violent videogames are actually being consumed by kids constantly. However they are getting a hold of them (and it is not through piracy, of that I am almost certain), they ARE getting ahold of them. It certainly isn't in the game industry's best interest to stop them either.

With regards to the late teen, rating legislation would mean that it is still under the parent's consent. If they want to let their 17 year old play RE, they can go to the store and buy it for them. It just makes it a little easier for the parents to actually control what their children are consuming. The parents still ultimately make the decision and everyone 18 and over is still free to do whatever the please. The industry just doesn't get to depend upon that demographic for profitablity. That is why the ESA is so adament on keeping the law the way it is. They aren't concerned with protecting the "freedoms" of consumers," they are only concerned with protecting their bottomline.

I realize that legally enforced restrictions won't completely solve the problem. Unlike the pornography, violent games actually involve something that is compelling to almost every 10 year old boy. But I think this new media, its growing sophistication, interactivity, and its increasing popularity with every subsequent generation poses particular problems we are, sooner or later, going to have to find a way to address.

Dan

[EternalGamer]

Why the hell is every post in this thread a thesis essay.

Shit is turning into the Dead Sea Scrolls.


Ironically, I have spent the last few hours in this discussion avoiding work on my master's thesis. :)

Dan

[Klade]

I haven't read all the posts here cause well.. there seems to be quite a few. But I will point out that Jack Thompson appears to be McCarthy for the digital age.

[codswallop]

if we, the gaming community, keep the taunting him sooner or later he would just implode with rage
Personally, I think the best way for the gaming community to "beat" him is to simply act with professionalism, intelligence and integrity.

He can act like a child all he wants, but if we act with maturity we should have no problem proving all his points wrong.

I realize that legally enforced restrictions won't completely solve the problem.
We have legally enforced restrictions in Australia. They don't work. Stores still sell games to minors when they shouldn't and even when parents try to shield their children, the kids' friends usually have less caring parents who buy them the game anyway so they still get to play the games.

[askheaves]

Ironically, I have spent the last few hours in this discussion avoiding work on my master's thesis. :)

Dan

I've been reading this thread avoiding working on an actual Murder Simulator/Trainer for the military. Granted, it's a little out of the price range of most 14 year olds.

Not to be pedantic, as I tend to be... but my 14-year-old cousin showed me his modded xbox with a lot of pirated 'M' rated games a year before I did my own.

Also, Eternal. I hope that your purpose here is in the vein of the Socratic Method. I'm hoping you're mostly around not to troll and take abuse, but more to spur intelligent discussion. Seems that's what you originally wanted.

[Taco]

Proving his points wrong to who? We need to get a non corrupted voice (as in not Rockstar or Lowenstein) in the media. Then we can worry about how our message is delivered.

Would be nice if PA made it through, I think they can deal with huge things with a certain flair and intelligence. But it's hard to break through the ceiling, who knows if it will ever happen.

Chances are Jack will die one day and that's how it will end.

[Neosho]

Ironically, I have spent the last few hours in this discussion avoiding work on my master's thesis. :)

Dan

Dan, i have to give you credit for at least attempting to defend him. However, the problem with JT is that he has never once correctly quoted a study correctly.

If there was any study that proved a causal relationship between videogames and violent behavior in minors than i'd be the first to say that we would need to limit the sale of games to minors. As it is, i do believe that we should limit the sale of videogames to minors anyway, and the ratings of the ESRB should be strictly enforced. I applaud companies that are now forcing people to be carded when they go to buy videogames.

However, this is NOT what JT is doing. He's misquoting carefully carried out studies, misrepresenting studies, and basically calling everyone morons and claiming that gamers are "lit time bombs waiting to go off". As you're working on a master's thesis, i'm sure you have access to APA article databases like PsycINFO or other such databases. Go into one of those, or better yet, find one of the articles that JT quotes and see how they back up his argument.

I wouldn't have a problem with him if he wasen't wantonly destorying and misleading the american public. Also, his tactics for "enforcing the ratings" boarderline on censorship, as he seeks absurd compensation from videogame companies to justify their production of violent videogames. He uses videogames as an excuse and justification for violent behavior rather than showing the failures of the parents in the situation. It takes a LOT to get a kid to go over the edge. Situations like columbine, which he basically singlely blames on games like doom2, were in fact widely preventable, although the fact that the parents, the teachers, the principal, the police, and EVERYONE FUCKING IGNORED THE WARNING SIGNS. The police had reports that the kids had bombs, guns, and everything. The kids were fucking storing the supplies for their bombs in plain view in their rooms. Where the fuck were the parents? Jack Thompson deserves nothing from anyone as he is simply someone that has taken a tragedy and attempted to pin blame on everyone else for his own good. He's making it an exusable thing to have a child that shoots up a school.

I think that the government should start forcing people to parent. If a child does something wrong, the parents should be held accountable. Fuck this shit about "videogames made my son do it", there's a rating system, there's everything we can fucking do to force you to parent. If you refuse to, then we're going to start holding you responsible for your child. After all, isn't that the job of the parent to be responsible for a child?

[bean19]

EternalGamer - Very few people think that young children should be allowed to play Grand Theft Auto or other Mature titles.

That is entirely not the point. . . especially in relation to this news.

The reason Jack Thompson is so universally reviled is that his methods are ugly, and his focus is not in keeping adult material away from children, but in litigation against the gaming industry.

I've made one other post here that talks about some of the hard facts. The problem is not the game industry as nearly ALL retailers will not sell "M" rated videogames to minors, and in addition to that, 80% of videogame sells are made by adults. The problem is not with retailers selling games to kids, but with parents buying adult games for children.

Legislation that demands what is already being done by retailers won't really effect anything except that it limits First Ammendment rights and will cause a ton of legal costs to be overturned (as it has been overturned in every state that has attempted this law).

Kids would still be getting the titles because parents would still be buying these games for children. If people want to fix the "problem" (although whether or not this is a problem remains ANOTHER question - I don't think that playing violent videogames causes a lowered inhibition to violence. I just think that children shouldn't be exposed to adult material of any kind without parental guidance), they need to focus on the actual problem. That problem is the lack of parental knowledge of games or apathy towards the game rating systems.

One of the problems is that the ESRB is actually REALLY strict. I have no problem whatsoever letting a young relative play most of the Mature rated games I own because they are usually very tame things like having a lot of blood in a fighting game, or using swear words. I think parents fall into this trap of not really watching because so many of these "M" rated games would be rated PG-13 if they were movies.

However, the problem with Mr. Thompson is that he DOESN'T CARE ABOUT REASONABLE SOLUTIONS like educating parents about the ESRB ratings or modifying ESRB ratings so that they are less stringent and more affectively mirror the movie industry's ratings (so that they are not overlooked).

He is just grand-standing. . . His purpose is reprehensible and his methods are disgusting. That is why Penny Arcade was upset with him and these are the only things that PA has criticized.

They happen to agree with the majority of people that feel that young kids shouldn't have access to super violent video games. The problem with Jack Thompson is that he doesn't care about that issue except as a means to grab the lime-light and to try to extort a payoff from the game industry for his civil lawsuits on the behalf of murderer's families.

You can't be an effective activist in one breath and then a craven lunatic in the next. It destroys all your credibility. Don't make his arguments for activism when the guy is not being called out for his activism, but for his disgusting methods.

[Neosho]

I think bean said everything that i wanted to say that i'm not quite eloquent enough to get across. However, i still hold that he extorts american tragedies for money, and that's pretty much the lowest form of human being you can find in my book.

[NoName]

We have legally enforced restrictions in Australia. They don't work. Stores still sell games to minors when they shouldn't and even when parents try to shield their children, the kids' friends usually have less caring parents who buy them the game anyway so they still get to play the games.
That's the kicker right there. Growing up, I had very protective parents, but that didn't stop me from visiting with friends who had less protective parents... Or in this case kids with older brothers who could buy these games.

[askheaves]

The problem is not with retailers selling games to kids, but with parents buying adult games for children.


I'd actually go one step further and say that's not the problem. That's the point of parenting is deciding what is and is not appropriate for a minor of that age. I think almost every 16 year old in America can handle GTA:SA, but I doubt there are many 9 year olds who could.

It's the job of the parent of a ticking timebomb of a child to either keep the game out of their hands, or put some time in during the previous 15 years keeping them from becoming a seething pit of rage and anger.

[Neosho]

Look, the whole problem with this entire thing is that younger children have issues distinguishing between fantasy and reality, right? Well, how fucking hard is it to call your friend's parents and say "Hey, little johnny shouldn't play violent videogames". Yeah, sure, it makes your kid angry, but that's what my mom did.

She said it, my friends parents listened, that was that.

[EternalGamer]

Neosho, I'll admit that Thompson's misuse of psychological studies doesn't speak to his credit, and that is a valid criticism of his arguments. However, I still think it neglects to address the larger issue at hand, because, as you have stated, the legislation of violent game products should not depend solely on proof of a direct casual relationship between violent games and violent behavior.

I also agree with you that videogames can not be the singular scapegoat, and Thompson has done his share to put them in that position. However, to say that the parents have a responsibility is not to let companies off the hook for their own responsibility in the way they market their products and larger social implications of those products. Watchdogs are needed, even if the watchdogs themselves require their own watchdogs.

Enforcing a ratings system does not permit parents to shirk the responsibility. In a way, it forces them to be more responsible. It says to them, "Look, if you want to allow your kid to play this game, you have to go buy it for them yourself." There is such a knee jerk reaction to any suggestion that we consider the potential negative repercussions of videogames, that nobody seems to want to admit to the seriousness of the situition.

Dan

[CacheMoney]

OK OK

I haven't read the full thread but here's this - My wife teaches 4th grade and ALL of her 34 students have played at least one game in the GTA series. There is something wrong with the fact that little George is supplying me with tips and tricks on the back of his math homework.

Kids should not be playing Mature games, but it's up to their parents to be the police on this one - not this Jack punk.

Money

[askheaves]

New post up on PA. Seems Jack made his way onto TV tonight (CNN) to talk about video games. I guess he displayed his ignorance even further.

If anybody catches any info on when I may be able to catch the interview, what show it's on, time, etc, post it here. I think it may be informative to all.

[EternalGamer]

That problem is the lack of parental knowledge of games or apathy towards the game rating systems.

I think that implementing a rating system might be a way to begin to address that sort of apathy. It is a way of saying to parents, "Look, this is a big deal. You need to pay attention to what your kid is playing." Sales restrictions certainly are not the panacea, but they are a way to begin to address the problem that, in my mind, isn't being addressed very well currently, for whatever reason.

[Taco]

New post up on PA. Seems Jack made his way onto TV tonight (CNN) to talk about video games. I guess he displayed his ignorance even further.

If anybody catches any info on when I may be able to catch the interview, what show it's on, time, etc, post it here. I think it may be informative to all.

Well it looks like he may have pissed off the NFL a bit.

[EternalGamer]

OK OK

I haven't read the full thread but here's this - My wife teaches 4th grade and ALL of her 34 students have played at least one game in the GTA series. There is something wrong with the fact that little George is supplying me with tips and tricks on the back of his math homework.

Kids should not be playing Mature games, but it's up to their parents to be the police on this one - not this Jack punk.

Money

We can sit here and blame parents for not parenting, but the situition is, whether or not we agree that they are being "irresponsible," calling them such does nothing to fix that problem, and to me, GTA being played by the majority of 4th graders makes it a huge problem.

Dan

[askheaves]

I think that implementing a rating system might be a way to begin to address that sort of apathy. It is a way of saying to parents, "Look, this is a big deal. You need to pay attention to what your kid is playing." Sales restrictions certainly are not the panacea, but they are a way to begin to address the problem that, in my mind, isn't being addressed very well currently, for whatever reason.

We have a rating system already (as you know), but it needs some tweaking.

First, the ratings have to actually reflect the content of the game. This means no rating-inflation. A game shouldn't be M purely because of somebody in a bikini.

Second, the AO rating needs to lose its stigma. Walmart (and any others) needs to stop it's insane policy of not selling AO games. The pure market segment that that company services makes an AO rating be a deathblow to a game. It's not fair to go into a market with something like 20% of your legs cut off.

Third, information. I like the TV ratings system because it briefly tells the viewer what kind of content they can expect to see in this show. Sexual, violent, language, etc. That's informative and helps people make better decisions.

Finally, I just want to throw in again that it takes a hell of a lot of hard work and persistance to make a fucked up kid. Interactive animated violence does not CREATE monsters so much as amplify the tendancies already in them... but, then, so does too much sugar.

[Taco]

We can sit here and blame parents for not parenting, but the situition is, whether or not we agree that they are being "irresponsible," calling them such does nothing to fix that problem, and to me, GTA being played by the majority of 4th graders makes it a huge problem.

Dan

So how would you like to fix it? Cane the parents? You're walk a thin line when you seem to suggest we should taking parenting out of the parents hands.

[EternalGamer]

We have a rating system already (as you know), but it needs some tweaking.

First, the ratings have to actually reflect the content of the game. This means no rating-inflation. A game shouldn't be M purely because of somebody in a bikini.

Second, the AO rating needs to lose its stigma. Walmart (and any others) needs to stop it's insane policy of not selling AO games. The pure market segment that that company services makes an AO rating be a deathblow to a game. It's not fair to go into a market with something like 20% of your legs cut off.

Third, information. I like the TV ratings system because it briefly tells the viewer what kind of content they can expect to see in this show. Sexual, violent, language, etc. That's informative and helps people make better decisions.

Finally, I just want to throw in again that it takes a hell of a lot of hard work and persistance to make a fucked up kid. Interactive animated violence does not CREATE monsters so much as amplify the tendancies already in them... but, then, so does too much sugar.


I, of course, meant "legally enforcing", not "implementing." And I agree with you, especially about the stigmatization of the AO rating. Major retails will carry "Non-Rated" versions of DVDs (which essentially means NC17), but at the same time they refuse to sell AO games. One of the major problems with the ratings system is that the M rating is far too wide reaching, from games that don't have content worse than a PG movie to ones that are, in my opinion, far beyond any R rated film.

Dan

[EternalGamer]

So how would you like to fix it? Cane the parents? You're walk a thin line when you seem to suggest we should taking parenting out of the parents hands.


I'm not suggestiong we take it out of their hands, I'm suggesting we implement a ratings system to legally enforce the selling of games to minors. I guess in a sense this "forces" them to be more responsible but so do laws preventing kids from being able to buy tobacco, alcohol, porn, or even drugs. It is not a matter of "taking the responsibility out of the hands of parents." It seems to me that we as a society have already demonstrated a belief that their should be general allowable guidelines in which parents should operate. This is just discussing the possible necessity of expanding one of those guidelines.

Dan

[Taco]

I'm fine with that.

That's not what Jack Thompson's looking for though.

[Rommel]

Evil, you are in law enforcement. If you got that complaint faxed to your brothers in arms how would they react? Knowing New York Police Officers, I suspect they would investigate him.

Third, information. I like the TV ratings system because it briefly tells the viewer what kind of content they can expect to see in this show. Sexual, violent, language, etc. That's informative and helps people make better decisions.

Have you bought a video game recently? They list each and every reason a game gets its rating on the back. No rating system is more complete. It even lists tobacco use!

[fndarkone]

that fax was so horribly written that i would doubt a lawyer of mr thompsons abilities would write that. i met him and asked him questions about half life (which he blamed for michael carneals shootings-not doom) and he seemed to articulate better than this fax.

i want it to be fake because of the writing.


edit: haha, first on page five. welcome to my domain!

[funtownarcade]

For a while I thought this site had a spine and was badass for not giving this jerk any more press.

[Taco]

He was probably mad. It seems like when someone gets under his skin he just flips out and has trouble writing more than three word sentences.

[Taco]

For a while I thought this site had a spine and was badass for not giving this jerk any more press.

Please, the guy is on CNN every week. Like any press a web site does or does not give him makes a lick of difference. Think a little. There is only one group of people on this planet who would like to challenge him and little old you thinks they should ignore him and let him spout his BS on national cable news unchallenged.

[Heretic Machine]

that fax was so horribly written that i would doubt a lawyer of mr thompsons abilities would write that.

...Jack Thompson could be out-done by a retarded monkey in a suit. Of course, they'd both end up flinging shit at the judge, but the monkey would probably do so with more finesse than this man is capable of.

[icronic]

It's a shame Jack Thompson hates videogames so much, he'd feel right at home in the Counter-Strike community.

[askheaves]

Have you bought a video game recently? They list each and every reason a game gets its rating on the back. No rating system is more complete. It even lists tobacco use!


I have bought video games recently. I guess that's what happens when you're well over 18, but have no kids. The rating just kind of blends into the background. I suspect I'd be a little more diligent if they weren't for me.

I guess I just figured (albiet, somewhat facetiously) that if a system like that were in place, nobody would be bitching. Ha!

[Rommel]

I guess I just figured (albiet, somewhat facetiously) that if a system like that were in place, nobody would be bitching. Ha!

Pick up an XBox or PS2 title you have lying around. you'll find that not only are the lists there, but they are in the same size and font as the feature lists - right below them in fact. Below those, you will find the ESRB's contact information should you have any further questions. Now, I have never rented a movie or bought a book without flipping to the back cover - heck, I read the back of my hair care products to make sure I don't inadvertantly go bald! All of the world has important information on the label, like perscription drugs. If you do not have the "Time" (Rather, presence of mind) to bother with them then you are inevitably going to do something wrong... like take too many pain killers after a night of hard drinking.

[NoName]

Wow, I leave for an hour and there's pages more to this. Well, no matter what your view is on the issue of selling violent video games to children is, Jack Thompson is crap. This was posted by Gabe on PA:
Jack was on CNN tonight to talk about Midway’s new football game. Like I said in my news post above , this is why Jack is scary. Because he has no fucking clue what he’s talking about yet they put him on CNN to talk as though he was an expert. This is a quote from him:

"The NFL wouldn't allow it's name to be used, so that tells you something."

He doesn’t understand that EA purchased the rights to NFL games and that Midway’s new game is a direct response to that. Like I said before the time for ignoring this coot is over. He can’t be allowed to pull this kind of shit anymore.
My brain hurts thinking about this man :(

[H.Bogard]

You haven't played Duck Hunt have you. Dude, that game has turned me in to a sharp shooting killing machine. And games will teach you how to reload a gun... just shoot away from the target!

OMG!! PRESS R!!!

[EternalGamer]

Wow, I leave for an hour and there's pages more to this. Well, no matter what your view is on the issue of selling violent video games to children is, Jack Thompson is crap. This was posted by Gabe on PA:

My brain hurts thinking about this man :(

Underneath that gross misrepresentation, though is a grain of truth. I believe that last years Blitz had to severely tonedown the violent content under threat of the NFL revoking the license.

I agree with askheaves comment that kids are not fragile, in the first place, though. A lot of time we try to idealise them in this ridiculious way. There is some truth to the South Park guys representation of kids as viscious little bastards, in a way it is only when they become adults that they begin to gain the sembalance of what we consider morality. It is only the threat of draconian repercussions that prevents them from going moral AWOL until then. I am reminded of Cartman's sarcastic remark in the SP film about "that movie warping my impressionable little mind."

But the counterpoint remains. They are impressionable, and my gut reaction just tells me that my 6 year old nephew playing GTA with his friends is just plain wrong.

There are two sides to this coin. But in the mainstream media, we always see it issue come up heads, and in game media it always comes up tails. More discussion is needed.

Dan

[Major Dan]

I am not certain that legislating is the definitive answer either. However, my experience with my youngest brother, my nephew, and pretty much every other little kid I have talked with in the last year tells me that this "rate it and leave it up to the parents" stuff isn't working. Unlike the violent books, violent videogames are actually being consumed by kids constantly. However they are getting a hold of them (and it is not through piracy, of that I am almost certain), they ARE getting ahold of them. It certainly isn't in the game industry's best interest to stop them either.

Dan

You know you're right, but I can tell you this as a Parent, my son, or my friends kids that I know will not be playing GTA or any game I know they shouldn't be. It really boils down to the parents taking an active role in their kids lifes and figuring out what they are playing. I have been gaming for 25 years, so it is easy for me. But I don't see why it would be hard to look at the game see the "M" and say no to your kid. I don't need the government to tell me that, I don't think Gamestop or whoever should be selling them to minors and I really believe M and AO games probably should be in their own area of the store. I also think more games should be AO it would make this whole situation better. GTA ought to be the first AO game, they would find a way to sell it guranteed!

[A-Team]

It's a shame Jack Thompson hates videogames so much, he'd feel right at home in the Counter-Strike community.
I declare icronic the winner of this thread and have rewarded the thread with 500 out of 500 points. <wink>

[TrackZero]

The police are going to laugh themselves stupid. This wouldn't fly infront of any judge at all. "Yes your honor arrest them because I flat out lied about donating and they did it for me. Their donation in my name is offensive."

Heh, well I think another tip-off was when he called PA "idiots" in the letter to the police. That'd in itself raise an eyebrow. What kind of lawyer puts that in an official letter?

[DannoHung]

Since it might be hard to find a study that shows that viewing pornography always makes children grow up to be serial rapist, I am guessing you would feel the same way about legislation of that industry? Should we make it legal for little kids to buy a copy of "Grandpas Anal Fuck Teen Sluts Vol 4"?

I suppose someone who was part of the porn industry or who had spent a lot of time around it, wouldn't think it was such a big deal for kids to see that stuff, but the average person in the populace (including many of us) might be horrified at the suggestion that it is "ok" for kids to view that sort of material. Similarly, as people who play games everyday, we might not see the problem with letting kids see Kratos rip the wings off a harpy. But the average person outside is likely to look at that same image and be horrified at our suggestion that it is "no big deal."

Dan

That is a strawman if ever there was one. I'm making no statement about allowing children to view either violence or sexuality.

I am stating, that:

1) Jack Thompson is a fear monger.
2) He is executing his fear mongering in order to bend the public towards his will.
3) His ideas are generally irrational.
4) Finding evidence that there is a correlation between playing violent video games and committing acts of violence will cause me to reverse my positions on points 1 to 3.

In fact, I whole heartedly agree with the enfocement of ESRB ratings. I believe TakeTwo should be punished seriously for allowing the HotCoffee game assets to ship with Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. If the Developers and Publishers aren't honest about what assets are in the game, it undermines the effectiveness of the rating system. I might even be in support of fines for retailers that sell video games to children who do not meet the rating requirements supposing they're reasonable and don't involve criminal prosecution.

But when you're talking about a person, you're pretty much talking about the whole thing, and we're talking about Jack Thompson and he's going to do more damage than good any way you look at it.

[askheaves]

Like I said before the time for ignoring this coot is over. He can’t be allowed to pull this kind of shit anymore.

Soes it sound like somebody is declaring war?

[Lon Lon Rabbit]

Through all of this there's only any focus on video games contributing to agression, but what about the fact that they can have a calming effect too?

Say someone has a real world confrontation and is so distressed by it that they have thoughts of harming the other person, but instead they use violent video games as an outlet for that agression and no real world harm takes place because of it.

I know Eternal's not going to think much of this, but I for one can certainly claim that (sometimes violent) video games have helped calm me down when I'm pissed off.

Also, I listened to that 80 min interview too, and yes, JT was calm and collected and made a lot of sense FOR THE MOST PART of that discussion. But as soon as I heard "EA is collaborating with the porn industry" I lost all credit for everything else he said that made sense in the 70 minutes previous. Yes he has some valid points, but he is the wrong person to be trying to make them.

I really really hope the sentiments of the gamer crowd get a good chance to break through onto mainstream media so we don't just get JT stirring up parents into mobs when they're most of the problem.

[The Iron Weasel]

When I went to pick up my new PC the guy that helped me out was saying how postal 2 is great for stress relief, and working at a computer shop you'd more then likely get your fare share of fucktards in there.

[Lint of Death]

JT called Rockstar's upcoming game Bully a "Columbine simulator."

[NoName]

I really really hope the sentiments of the gamer crowd get a good chance to break through onto mainstream media so we don't just get JT stirring up parents into mobs when they're most of the problem.
Parents are part of the problem? There we go, instead of making laws to do parenting for people, why don't we educate the parents who know nothing of games (and whether it's ok for little Johnny to play or not).

[bean19]

JT called Rockstar's upcoming game Bully a "Columbine simulator."

Yep. Yet another misinformed bit of propoganda.

Bully is about an English prep-school student and according to previews, you can play it several ways. . . go up the social ladder by being a good kid or a bad. The violence is limited to real violence that occurs in English prep schools, which is important, because unlike U.S. schools this means fist-fights, swirlies, and maybe getting pinged by a dodgeball.

The game isn't even out yet and it is getting attacked by fear-mongers. That says a whole lot about their lack of integrity and the worthlessness of Mr. Thompson's facts.

He lies directly, by ommission, and by exagerration. How can anyone take someone like that seriously?

Someone needs to collect all of these lies, source them, and send them as a press release to all major news affiliates.

[The Iron Weasel]

Parents are part of the problem? There we go, instead of making laws to do parenting for people, why don't we educate the parents who know nothing of games (and whether it's ok for little Johnny to play or not).

Little Johnny has it comming and you know it! WHY THE FUCK SHOULD I HELP HIM!?!?!?!?!?!??!

[Lint of Death]

I agree. It is wrong to assume that little Johnny should be helped. Who do you think Al Pacino's "little friend" is? A bunny?

EDIT: okay, I guess there is the possibility that little Johnny is indeed a bunny. I still think he's a little bitch, though, and I hope he gets totally pwned in Rockstar's new Columbine simulator.

[KJAX]

In Penny Arcade I trust.

In Jack Thompson I do not trust.

That is all.

[askheaves]

Why are we arguing this at all? Real world violence attributed to video game violence, even in its worst case sceenarios, is not a significant problem. I guarantee you less people have died due to video game violence than any particulary grusome day in Iraq over the last couple of years.

If video games were really creating droves of zombified armed teenagers, then it would be a problem. As it stands, we're pretty fucking lucky as a nation if this is what gets our panties in a bunch. More people die from pig bites than shark bites every year (courtesy Bruce Sterling). We have no idea what problems are if we're questioning our entertainment.

[Heretic Machine]

JT called Rockstar's upcoming game Bully a "Columbine simulator."

Well, Bullys are what cause school shootings... I guess he was -sort of- close.

because unlike U.S. schools this means fist-fights, swirlies, and maybe getting pinged by a dodgeball.

Don't buy into the hype, school shootings are rare. You have a better chance at winning the lottery a hundred times in a row than to even live in the same county that a school shooting takes place in.

[Kefkataran]

In Penny Arcade I trust.

In Jack Thompson I do not trust.

'Nuff said. Thread closed.

[Morrolan]

Well, Bullys are what cause school shootings... I guess he was -sort of- close.
Wrong. Incorrect. Bullies are the motivation for school shootings. They are the catalyst. Sociopaths can be made, but the vast majority of them are born. The sort of mental instability that can easily become dangerous is usually (but not always,) in the form of an oddity in the amigdila, and/or a recessive gene associated with the pre-frontal cortex. I'm not a psychology major, but I've taken enough classes to know that bullies did not MAKE Columbine happen. They simply facilitated its happening. In the same way, Bully is not a Columbine-trainer, not is it a Columbine-Simulator (even leaving aside the fact that there are no guns in the game, if I remember correctly.) What it is is tasteless, and a poor business decision on the part of Rockstar. It is not, however, dangerous. Those who have a difficulty telling fantasy from reality are a special breed, and can be dangerous even when allowed access to no fantasies other than those they imagine themselves. They only fall completely into fantasies which play into their wants and needs. So a kid would already have to be mentally unstable, unmedicated, and have a hatred of his school-mates for a game like Bully to even concievably have an effect on his behaviour.

[Zeal]

Actually, Penny Arcade fucked up by trying to donate money in someone else's name. If they didn't try to be slick asses and just ignored the crackpot, he wouldn't have anything on them. By pulling a stunt like this, they've messed themselves up.

He could basically slam them with identity theft, even.

[Zeal]

Wrong. Incorrect. Bullies are the motivation for school shootings. They are the catalyst. Sociopaths can be made, but the vast majority of them are born. The sort of mental instability that can easily become dangerous is usually (but not always,) in the form of an oddity in the amigdila, and/or a recessive gene associated with the pre-frontal cortex. I'm not a psychology major, but I've taken enough classes to know that bullies did not MAKE Columbine happen. They simply facilitated its happening. In the same way, Bully is not a Columbine-trainer, not is it a Columbine-Simulator (even leaving aside the fact that there are no guns in the game, if I remember correctly.) What it is is tasteless, and a poor business decision on the part of Rockstar. It is not, however, dangerous. Those who have a difficulty telling fantasy from reality are a special breed, and can be dangerous even when allowed access to no fantasies other than those they imagine themselves. They only fall completely into fantasies which play into their wants and needs. So a kid would already have to be mentally unstable, unmedicated, and have a hatred of his school-mates for a game like Bully to even concievably have an effect on his behaviour.

And can you please learn the hidden art of the paragraph. Staying on-topic is also kinda cool.

[Taco]

Actually, Penny Arcade fucked up by trying to donate money in someone else's name. If they didn't try to be slick asses and just ignored the crackpot, he wouldn't have anything on them. By pulling a stunt like this, they've messed themselves up.

He could basically slam them with identity theft, even.

What? For putting his name in the remarks section on a check? It's still from a Penny Arcade check with Mike and Jerry's signature on it, and saying verbally and written they are donating this in Jack's name? Where is the legal basis behind identity theft? Are you an internet born lawyer? Because I'm sure PA consulted their lawyer before taking any action on this, they are careful about legal issues and have experience with them.

[Rommel]

Actually, giving donations in another's name is a long-standing, impersonal gift in the U.S. A nice one too, because you usually get a thank you letter from the charity or fund.

[lost]

Originally Posted by Zeal
Actually, Penny Arcade fucked up by trying to donate money in someone else's name. If they didn't try to be slick asses and just ignored the crackpot, he wouldn't have anything on them. By pulling a stunt like this, they've messed themselves up.

He could basically slam them with identity theft, even.

hehehe

I want him to play Hello Kitty : Roller Rescue, then he'll truly see how games can fuck somebody up.

The public is just misinformed, I heard a kid say to his mum today that Manhunt had been banned when trying to get her to rent it for him. Does anybody see the huge logic flaw in that?

[Kefkataran]

Actually, Penny Arcade fucked up by trying to donate money in someone else's name. If they didn't try to be slick asses and just ignored the crackpot, he wouldn't have anything on them. By pulling a stunt like this, they've messed themselves up.

He could basically slam them with identity theft, even.

They didn't do anything even coming close to thieving the man's identity. They may have been needlessly slick, but I would be pretty shocked if there was shit Jack could do to them. Free speech and all.

[Xerxes]

It's a gift, of sorts. Jack can't do shit but look at the blood vein on his forhead throbbing. He thought games were murders and not as intellegent as his lawyerly self and here he is being challenged and out done.

It's all his fault for releasing his little design doc. I'm sure as soon as all of us read it, we knew someone was capable and willing to do it. One week later it's slapped in his face. He probably thought it was satire and was being funny. Probably didn't think all of that bullshit was possible and could be done for less than what his bounty was worth. We are silly little gamers full of bloodrage. I think Gabe and Tycho represent the gaming community pretty well. I think we are all about that intellegent including the raving looney fanbois (at times).

I'm sorry Jack Thompson is a sad excuse for a lawyer. I'd rather a ambulance chaser. He couldn't even cut it with Capt. Kirk and Daniel Jackson and they are just acting. Acting pretty silly at that.

[bean19]

Don't buy into the hype, school shootings are rare. You have a better chance at winning the lottery a hundred times in a row than to even live in the same county that a school shooting takes place in.

That isn't true where I live.

Two girls were shot (innocent bystanders of a drive-by that missed) at the school I went to and there were shootings in 4 different counties adjacent to me during my time in high school.

In Amarillo, TX there was even a case of a teenager who ran over another teenager purposefully.

I tried to look up statistics on school shootings, but they show incredibly few events. . . about as many as you would expect from just normal crazy people. Also, they haven't gone up at all in the past few years (since Grand Theft Auto and other more violent games have become so popular). In fact, the oppossite is true. School shootings have gone DOWN.

However, these numbers are highly suspect (thus my not linking them). They do not include either of the events I am personally familiar with from my time in high school, so they are most definitely inaccurate at LEAST in two instances.

I'm pretty sure there must be a national study on this somewhere, but I can't seem to find one.

However, the current (inaccurate) statistics would support that violent videogames actually reduce child violence as the number of school shootings has gone down.

[Taco]

I think the term "school shootings" are generally used to refer to an act where the goal was to indiscriminately kill as many people at school as possible, with no clear motive . Targeted violence, including those caught in a crossfire, will always be largely dependant of where you live and relatively more common.

[Taco]

Update on PA's page. Wouldn't be surprised to see them pull a HardOCP and sue him for something. Certainly all his empty threats and BS can add up to something?

[Intruder]

I wonder if Jack sent Evil a letter, and this is why we don't have Jack T. news on the front page anymore... hmmm conspiracy???maybe!!! ;)

[bean19]

I wonder if Jack sent Evil a letter, and this is why we don't have Jack T. news on the front page anymore... hmmm conspiracy???maybe!!! ;)

More along the lines of not wanting to feed the troll.

[NoName]

More along the lines of not wanting to feed the troll.
Yea, the news part of this thread is over. I'm ready for it to get locked and for us all to move on, and I posted it... o.0

[Xerxes]

Gabe does paint a decent enough picture of what Jack is, and imagining if this issue was being handle by a capable informed lawyer. Someone who didn't throw lawsuits at everybody thinking he's a douche. Someone who could convey they issue strongly without coming off dumbass. Hell imagine if it was the guy on the 80 minute interview, minus the murder simulator term over and over again.

Jack is easy becuase he makes it so easy.

[d0g_p00p]

Jesus. This guy is a real class act. I mean how clueless is this guy, oh wait.......