View Full Version : What's Going to Suck About Xbox 360
Gamewatcher
10-17-2005, 12:51 AM
The Microsoft Marketing Machine is on its death march toward launch, and the cascade of upbeat news certainly makes the Xbox 360 look promising: Wireless controllers, drool-worthy launch titles, gee-whiz features and, finally, progressive scan DVD. But Gamestay.com reports (http://www.gamestay.com/stories/2005/10/16/whatsGoingToSuckAboutXbox360.html) there's one small feature omission that so far no one's really talking about:
The underreported news [is] that the 360 will have zero options to transfer your original Xbox saves. All of your tracks, stats, and carefully decorated cars from Forza Motorsport? Gone. Those hard-earned DOAX swimsuits that you spent weeks or maybe even months trying to get? Like they were never there. Your 100 hours of Morrowind progress? Forget about it. It's like the last four years never happened.
I can see why Microsoft wouldn't fight too hard to enable you to port over your saves. A rich library of high-quality original Xbox titles might slow your focus on acquiring the latest and greatest 360 games, reducing Microsoft's return on its loss-leader hardware investment.
There are a few possible saves for this situation, but Microsoft will have to step up. And it will probably take some outcry for this to happen because their incentive for doing so is nil.
bapenguin
10-17-2005, 06:06 AM
My guess is there might be a network option sometime in the future to transfer the saves from one box to the other (either local or over Live). We maybe see some sort of 3rd party device come out of this as well, a memory card that has a USB adapter or something to the 360.
Or we might all be screwed.
DannoHung
10-17-2005, 06:14 AM
I'm thinking a memory card device is the most likely option... ORRRR, perhaps someone will come up with a transfer cable that lets you plug the XBox's controller port into the 360's USB port and tricks the XBox into thinking the 360's hard drive is a memory card.
That's unlikely, but would be schway.
Again, though, I don't think this is really all that much of a concern for Microsoft. Ultimately, the only game that NEEDS to be backwards compatible for mass market acceptance of the device is Halo 2.
total
10-17-2005, 06:21 AM
3rd party will take care of this in no time. I'm sure you'll see the Xbox to Xbox 360 controller converters in within a month of it's release.
Twigz'N'Berries
10-17-2005, 06:31 AM
Well, i think its that way for all next gen consoles. I thought the PS3 couldn't use PS2 memory cards. Not really a huge issue for me, but some would feel differently.
El Gato
10-17-2005, 06:39 AM
Might be a concern for some, but personally I'm not buying a 360 to play Xbox games.
I've played a grand total of one PS1 game on my PS2 - and that was only once to see if it worked.
Atorak
10-17-2005, 06:54 AM
Just keep your original XBoxes. Done and done.
Excluding the people who had to sell their originals to buy the new one...
NoName
10-17-2005, 06:58 AM
If nothing else, all the modders who already have the Xbox360 dev kits will put out a way to do it. :D
Kamalot
10-17-2005, 07:09 AM
Hmm.
I was going to come on in and point out to all the Sony and Nintendo fanboys that EvilAvatar is a place where even Microsoft gets taken to task, yet perhaps I was too quick!
Everyone above me in this thread is blowing off the whole article saying that backwards compatibility isn't important, that maybe in the future someone else will tackle this problem or to keep your original xbox.
People, those aren't solutions. The fact that you can't take your original Xbox saves to the 360 sucks and effectively kills backwards compatibility. Gloss over it as much was you want, but wearing rose-colored glasses does not change the fact that this sucks.
Ernst_Jager
10-17-2005, 07:11 AM
Who cares. If the new games are good enough I won't be playing the old ones anyway.
I think this whole article is just trolling for something negative so they can try to get a reaction out of people.
TheHulk
10-17-2005, 07:19 AM
I've seen this mentioned in passing in several places and it does suck. The reason backwards compatibility worked on the PS2 is because I could plug in my old memory card and finish up my Final Fantasy VII, VIII, and IX saves. I never would have gone back started these games over from scratch. However, the PS2s piss poor launch lineup may have been even more incentive for me to only have 1 PS2 game for a long time after launch.
Xerxes
10-17-2005, 07:23 AM
Ok it's not like you got to keep your save from NES to SNES, or BC for that matter.
EternalGamer
10-17-2005, 07:24 AM
I don't think the third party fix is an option because it seems that the 360 uses a different saving format (according to the "Official Xbox Launch Guide"). I don't know why the hell it just couldn't support TWO save formats for the two different game types. But they didnt' give any more details than that.
Looks like I have 3 weeks to finish Ninja Gaiden Black, Doom 3, Pschyonaughts and Syberia...
Dan
bapenguin
10-17-2005, 07:26 AM
Yeah, Backwards compatibility was a luxury that only started with the last generation of consoles. I guess we got spoiled real fast. :)
It IS an issue, but it seems most are confident some 3rd party solution will take care of it if Microsoft decides not to step up to the plate.
Kamalot
10-17-2005, 07:29 AM
A good game is a good game, regadless if it is old or new. The industry as a whole needs to wake up and realize that people like old games the same way they like old music or old movies.
Rakael
10-17-2005, 07:30 AM
I don't own an XBox, so no sweat off my back.
51|RandoM
10-17-2005, 07:34 AM
I am a big fan of backwards compatibility. If you bought a ps2 at release, you kind of had to be, lol.
That said, I'm not concerned about the save data issue. I don't really get into those game where you have to plug away at it forever, gaining unlockables, etc. I usually take care of that mindless tedium with the latest MMORPG.
Morratut
10-17-2005, 07:44 AM
Errr not too bothered about it as yet. Hell people need to check if there game works first on the 360. Only then do you need to worry about the saves.
If the game works then great, if i can transfer my files err great. Not bothered though. I'm buying a 360 for the new games. My eyes look back at old games anyways and i think 'wow the looks like a pile of shit'. I get used to the latest and greatest eye candy and i can't go back :D
I tried to play Goldeneye again because i loved it. Wow i so turned off due to the graphics.
EternalGamer
10-17-2005, 07:52 AM
Errr not too bothered about it as yet. Hell people need to check if there game works first on the 360. Only then do you need to worry about the saves.
If the game works then great, if i can transfer my files err great. Not bothered though. I'm buying a 360 for the new games. My eyes look back at old games anyways and i think 'wow the looks like a pile of shit'. I get used to the latest and greatest eye candy and i can't go back :D
I tried to play Goldeneye again because i loved it. Wow i so turned off due to the graphics.
Morratut, this is certainly true about the 1st gen 3D stuff. A lot of SNES and Genesis games still look great, but the early 3D looks and plays godawful now. However, I think the 2nd gen 3D stuff has a enough polish that it can hold up better. I mean, I think Ninja Gaiden Black and Fable are still going to look pretty cool 10 years from now. We are rapidlyl approaching the limit where style will matter much more than technical ability. I think that is why DOA4 doesn't really look much better. The designers already got the characters looking the way they want them to look. They don't WANT them to look more detailed with skin blemishes and more complex textures. The are going for an artstyle that doesn't demand more detail on their models and to change it would completely change the style and look of the gameworld. I think that is true for a lot of games this generation. They look as good as they are supposet to look. They don't "look" like technical inabilitated games, they look like games that chose a certain art direction (whether or not that is true).
Dan
Heh, consoles gamers have mastered the art of expecting things that one has no real reason to expect.
It's on par with co-op play on PC's. So I guess both worlds are guilty.
BTW, I'd think lack of save game portability is the least of the backwards compatibility hurdles.
And on that note, backwards compatibility is another thing that somewhere on the line became expected for no particular reason.
Chi-Town
10-17-2005, 07:58 AM
Hackers used Xbox saves to bypass the original system's security. The inability to use Xbox saves has nothing to do with different memory cards, Microsoft is doing this to close a security hole.
Not knowing how that particular exploit worked(and thus talking straight out of my ass) I'd think they could close the hole the save games exploited in the 360 hardware, rather than just kill portability altogether.
Heretic Machine
10-17-2005, 08:08 AM
Having my saves would be nice, but at the same time... Maybe it will reinvigorate my interest in some old XBOX games.
Kamalot
10-17-2005, 08:13 AM
I started playing F-Zero for the Nintendo 64 the other day. Having never owned a 64 before, I was interested in what all the fuss was about.
The very first thing that ran through my head was how goddamn primitive the game looked. It was downright awful! How could I play something that looked like it came from the polygon dark ages?
Not even 5 min into the game, I didn't even see the graphics. I was too worried about hitting the boost pads and drifting around corners. The controls are tight and responsive, the action, FAST!
A great game causes graphics to melt away. Who has time to appreciate pretty graphics when 100% of your attention is focused on gameplay?
Sure, graphics attract people to a game (or turn them off of it) but it is the gameplay that keeps people coming back. And a great game shouldn't be left behind because there are fancier ways of playing. If something is still fun, then play it. If it isn't fun any more, start looking for something that IS fun.
Demo_Boy
10-17-2005, 08:17 AM
Well if theres no way to port saves over, then I have to finish up all my games on XBox.
Issue is my XBox makes this nasty clicking sound every time I load a game.
Repairing that is going to cost me just enough to put the 360 out of reach for 3 more months or so.
Maybe by then we'll have a good impression of how the 360 is doing.
wtg MS you actually prevented me from being swept up by the hype!!
Morratut
10-17-2005, 08:17 AM
Morratut, this is certainly true about the 1st gen 3D stuff. A lot of SNES and Genesis games still look great, but the early 3D looks and plays godawful now. However, I think the 2nd gen 3D stuff has a enough polish that it can hold up better. I mean, I think Ninja Gaiden Black and Fable are still going to look pretty cool 10 years from now. We are rapidlyl approaching the limit where style will matter much more than technical ability. I think that is why DOA4 doesn't really look much better. The designers already got the characters looking the way they want them to look. They don't WANT them to look more detailed with skin blemishes and more complex textures. The are going for an artstyle that doesn't demand more detail on their models and to change it would completely change the style and look of the gameworld. I think that is true for a lot of games this generation. They look as good as they are supposet to look. They don't "look" like technical inabilitated games, they look like games that chose a certain art direction (whether or not that is true).
Dan
Good point :)
Mmmm maybe i may not be turned off by the visuals of the current gen like i did the last.
thegameguru
10-17-2005, 08:32 AM
A. People who will buy an Xbox 360 = dont care about the issues
B. People who wont buy an Xbox 360 = care about the issues
seems simple.
so unless B > A then there isnt really a problem.
Sure theres a C. People who will buy and Xbox = People who care about the issues.
but..really do they count in the end? Microsoft has their money.
Xerxes
10-17-2005, 08:34 AM
Early 3D plays godawful? Look good awful yes, but Tobal handled better than most fighters around and from what I heard Tobal 2 was better than that.
Chandler
10-17-2005, 08:45 AM
edit: ok maybe it was the wrong thread I was posting in
It makes sense that there would be no backwards compatibility with saved because presumably Microsoft is pretty much stopping production of the XBox and therefore wouldn't be a viable platform to develop for in the future anyways.
SynapseLapse
10-17-2005, 08:59 AM
Yeah, Backwards compatibility was a luxury that only started with the last generation of consoles. I guess we got spoiled real fast. :)
It IS an issue, but it seems most are confident some 3rd party solution will take care of it if Microsoft decides not to step up to the plate.
*cough* Atari 7800... Gbc/GBA/DS
Backwards compatibility was a luxury that was rediscovered with the last generation of consoles.
:)
MosBen
10-17-2005, 09:08 AM
Yeah, it sucks I guess, but it just doesn't affect my desire to purchase the system the way it seems to affect others'. My feeling is best summed up with "meh". If I had a game that I really really wanted to keep the save I'd just keep the Xbox 1 until I didn't care about it anymore. Since I currently have only one game that I'm in the middle of, and it's not a game that is super hard to start over (no collectible, etc.) I don't care if I lose that save.
bapenguin
10-17-2005, 09:24 AM
*cough* Atari 7800... Gbc/GBA/DS
Backwards compatibility was a luxury that was rediscovered with the last generation of consoles.
:)
True about Atari...GB stuff is kind of seperate category being a handheld. But yeah...
But if you look at some of the other major players
NES->SNES->N64->GAMECUBE
GENSIS->SATURN->DREAMCAST
Really, only Sony's console has been backwards compatible last gen, Dreamcast and Gamecube weren't.
vherub
10-17-2005, 09:25 AM
I was on the fence, this will probably delay a purchase 6-12 months out depending on if there is a killer ap on the level of ninja gaiden.
Hopefully by then there will be a clearer picture on what is BC, and whether saved files can be used/transferred easily.
BC should be the standard, for an industry to completely abandon its past every 5 years is a shame not only as a gamer, but also for anyone who even remotely believes there is some level of art and expression inherent in the medium.
EternalGamer
10-17-2005, 09:35 AM
A. People who will buy an Xbox 360 = dont care about the issues
B. People who wont buy an Xbox 360 = care about the issues
Wow, you just summarized 90% of the posts in this thread. People could have saved a lot of time justifying/castigating the 360 if they would have just said "I = Person A" or "I = person B."
Dan
51|RandoM
10-17-2005, 09:42 AM
Does the save portability really matter if only halo and halo 2 are backwards compatible?
/duck
What are ya ducking for, that's what I was getting at and surprisingly no one took the bait :).
Ajguy
10-17-2005, 09:44 AM
Ya know, I'm pretty sure in an interview (around E3 I think), either Peter Moore or J. Allard said that they would work on a solution for this. I'll try to find the interview later today. But as someone mentioned, the PS3 will use new memory cards and have to slots for the old ones. No one has taken Sony to the stake yet. How can we expect games to progress if we're wasting time on the old stuff?
Major Dan
10-17-2005, 09:48 AM
Hmm.
People, those aren't solutions. The fact that you can't take your original Xbox saves to the 360 sucks and effectively kills backwards compatibility. Gloss over it as much was you want, but wearing rose-colored glasses does not change the fact that this sucks.
It doesn't kill backward compat. All I have to do is play through Halo 2 again and how bad will that be. It will still play but I don't have all the new maps, download them and your good. I agree it is a PAIN in the ASS but, hey I bet there will be some solution sooner or later, and I bet sooner. I don't retro game too much anyway, so this doesn't bother too greatly. But, for games like Burnout 3 it would be a bummer though. But I will probably be too busy play Burnout Revenge :)
DoubleUranium
10-17-2005, 10:09 AM
I don't understand why save games can't be transferred via Live. In the end though I could care less about BC. My two Xboxes aren't going anywhere.
crackeriah
10-17-2005, 11:29 AM
This problem is mostly due to the design of the current XBox, not the X360.
How do you get your current saves from one XBox to another? For many (most?) games you can't, because the save file is larger than the biggest memory card.
Xerxes
10-17-2005, 11:56 AM
I don't care about saves... I'll redo the crap I want to. That's called replayability. Some games might not be worth it, some might. Maybe cause I lost one xbox already and all my saves I'm not so attached anymore, but it's not the end of the world.
Roc Ingersol
10-17-2005, 11:56 AM
How do you get your current saves from one XBox to another?
It's called the network. It's the obvious solution because even a joe schmoe could figure it out if you sell him a crossover cable.
That aside, seriously, I don't care. My 100% in GTA:VC isn't coming with? Shucks. I guess it'll just have to keep my 99th level DragonWarrior company, in the big bit graveyard.
I guess it is like all that time spent never happened -- if you weren't enjoying yourself along the way.
Zanzibar
10-17-2005, 12:09 PM
I do care about this, and I am buying an X360. Yes, I'm disappointed. Yes, it SHOULD be the easiest thing in the world.
If I'm able to browse my PC's music library over the network (which I believe is do-able), then I should be able to browse my Xbox's savegame library. It should be simple to then transfer that data.
It would make sense if they weren't supporting this to prevent transferring hacks, I suppose. But I'm still disappointed.
Of course, this just means I'll have to play Halo and Halo 2 over again. Shucks.
Having worked on a couple of console games, one of the areas that games most often fail initial QA testing is on save games. All the consoles have strict rules on how your games are saved. Been a couple of years now. But one console allowed you to save all your games as seperate files, whilst the other wanted all saved games compiled in a single file. There's a lot more to it than that, but each system has different save game requirements that are needed in order to pass QA testing, which is apretty expensive business.
KarmaGhost
10-17-2005, 01:11 PM
I know this site prides itself on "Daily Gaming News...with Attitude!" and that's great, don't get me wrong, but running an article about Xbox save incompatibility with the title " What's Going to Suck About Xbox 360?" How about "Xbox Saves Not Compatible with Next Gen Console," or something like that?
I really don't want EvAv to turn into the FoxNews of online gaming news. I'm proud to be a memeber of Evil Avatar, let's keep it that way.
Babbster
10-17-2005, 01:22 PM
A fix for this (either from Microsoft, or from a third party) shouldn't be that difficult - even for HUGE game saves such as those from KOTOR and similar. All it should require is an adaptor to plug the new memory card into an old Xbox controller and software that copies (and translates?) the old saves to the new card. Since the new cards come in much larger sizes (64MB will be enough), this should cover anything.
edit: It occurs to me that you don't even really need to make the device with a fancy adaptor from old card format to new card format to plug into the controller. You would really only need to do [Xbox-modified] USB to new card format to plug straight into a controller port, which one would think would be even easier.
Everyone's an expert.
Refer to Evak's post, Babbster and ilk. Who here knows for a fact that the save game software requirements are identical on the Xbox and 360?
Babbster
10-17-2005, 02:56 PM
Everyone's an expert.
Refer to Evak's post, Babbster and ilk. Who here knows for a fact that the save game software requirements are identical on the Xbox and 360?
a) I'm not an expert. Note the word "shouldn't" in my first sentence, and "should" sprinked liberally elsewhere.
b) Xbox games aren't going to magically try to save different information because they're played in an Xbox 360 (if they can be played at all, of course).
c) Even if the emulation layer does something to the save, that process should be able to be reversed and "emulated" by software outside the box which could be done in a process such as I described.
Zanzibar
10-17-2005, 03:41 PM
a) I'm not an expert. Note the word "shouldn't" in my first sentence, and "should" sprinked liberally elsewhere.
b) Xbox games aren't going to magically try to save different information because they're played in an Xbox 360 (if they can be played at all, of course).
c) Even if the emulation layer does something to the save, that process should be able to be reversed and "emulated" by software outside the box which could be done in a process such as I described.
Babbster is right; whatever emulation is done for Xbox games should/could have a different layer that will rewrite any differential savegame data.
But you shouldn't need any hardware other than a network switch (or crossover patch cable).
mister_slim
10-17-2005, 06:46 PM
Just keep your original XBoxes. Done and done.
Excluding the people who had to sell their originals to buy the new one...
And those whose Xboxes are dying.
I started playing F-Zero for the Nintendo 64 the other day. Having never owned a 64 before, I was interested in what all the fuss was about.
The very first thing that ran through my head was how goddamn primitive the game looked. It was downright awful! How could I play something that looked like it came from the polygon dark ages?
Not even 5 min into the game, I didn't even see the graphics. I was too worried about hitting the boost pads and drifting around corners. The controls are tight and responsive, the action, FAST!
A great game causes graphics to melt away. Who has time to appreciate pretty graphics when 100% of your attention is focused on gameplay?
Sure, graphics attract people to a game (or turn them off of it) but it is the gameplay that keeps people coming back. And a great game shouldn't be left behind because there are fancier ways of playing. If something is still fun, then play it. If it isn't fun any more, start looking for something that IS fun.
I played through Super Mario Bros. 2 again recently and instantly remembered why I loved the game in the first place. Great gameplay will always transcend great graphics years after a game is released.
Gamewatcher
10-18-2005, 02:06 AM
I've digested all of the responses and posted a reply to my blog. Frankly, I'm surprised at how many people didn't bother to actually read the article (or so it appeared). At any rate, I've addressed some popular misconceptions:
Save my saves - fallout from yesterday's Rant (http://www.gamestay.com/categories/blog/2005/10/18.html)
I'm beat - heading to sleep now. I sacrificed any game time I might have had today to the cause. Hope that's worth something.
RandomViolence
10-18-2005, 07:53 AM
True about Atari...GB stuff is kind of seperate category being a handheld. But yeah...
But if you look at some of the other major players
NES->SNES->N64->GAMECUBE
GENSIS->SATURN->DREAMCAST
Really, only Sony's console has been backwards compatible last gen, Dreamcast and Gamecube weren't.
Don't forget, Sega had that awesome attachment for the Genesis so you could play Master System games! God that thing rocked... yeah. What the hell was Sega thinking with the modular system shit? You can play Master system games, but only if you buy this piece o' shit. You can play Sega CD games, but only if you buy THIS piece o' shit. That was busted.
I was scared with the initial dual-SKU announcement for the 360 that Microsoft was pulling some crazy shit like that, but at least it's not limiting what titles you can play.
Venkman
10-18-2005, 08:05 AM
I am not buying an Xbox 360 so I can play Xbox 1 games. I used to have three systems hooker up to one TV, but I came to my senses and realized I only play one of them- the newest.
most people will never use the Xbox 360 to play Xbox 1 games, but they whine and bitch about until the cows come home.
SilverDragon
12-05-2005, 10:21 PM
I'm glad to see others are also asking this question. I've tried different sites asking for a yes,no, or even maybe with no success. I hope ms will listen to the people who buy there systems.I would hate to loose some my old saves, cars on need for speeds 1 & 2 and etc. Unfortenutly I'm still on a waiting list at my local Gamestop.They give me different answers ever time I go in and ask.
SilverDragon
12-06-2005, 09:15 PM
? for anybody that has a 360 already, have you tried a Action Replayfor the xbox. To save xbox saves to xbox 360. Action Replay has a USB connection to hook to a computer and memory card to save or download. I would appreciate hearing wether this could be the answer.
Epsilon
12-18-2005, 11:36 AM
If you don't mind using an external hard drive, transferring saves can be easy.
Requirements:
+ External HDD (USB interface)
+ Xbox USB Adapter (example (http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?category=53&products_id=2154))
The basic rundown is you connect the USB adapter to a controller port, with the external HDD connected to the adapter. You can then transfer the saves from the Xbox dashboard as if the external HDD was a memory card.
Then you can just plug the external HDD into your 360 and use it as a memory card or transfer the files to the X360's HDD.
More information:
+ Xbox -> External HDD (http://www.llamma.com/xbox/Mods/bet_my_xbox_memory_card_is_bigger.htm)
+ External HDD -> Xbox 360 (http://www.llamma.com/xbox360/mods/USB%20Hard%20Drive%20Mod.htm)
It doesn't say in the first guide, but the second says to format the HDD with a FAT32 partition. That site has a ton of sweet mods also, but this particular trick should not void anything as you're not taking anything apart.
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