Gold Farming: It Prints Money

[Dr.Finger]

You know those irritating gold farming ads that periodically show up on this site? Well even though activities like that are pretty unethical (and in some cases illegal) they still keep plugging along for much the same reason we all still keep getting spam from putative Nigerian princes: because people use them. Now, thanks to the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7575902.stm), we can attach some firm numbers to the gold farming industry, and those numbers are pretty depressing. 500,000 people and $500 million dollars per year.

I initially became aware of gold farming through my own games-playing but assumed it was just a cottage industry," said Professor Richard Heeks from the University of Manchester who wrote the report. "In a way that is still true. It's just that instead of a few dozen cottages, there turn out to be tens of thousands
--
I was drawn to write about gold farming due to my perception that it's a significant phenomenon that academics and development organisations are unaware of," he told the BBC. Already, he said, gold farming was comparable in size to India's outsourcing industry.Emphasis mine. Heeks also points out that about 80% of gold farming operations are run out of China, where the workers earn less than $150 a month doing the job.

Sources: Game Politics (http://www.gamepolitics.com/2008/08/24/report-gold-farming-500-million-industry);

I know, I used the same joke in a title already this week. What can I say, I'm just not that funny.

[digitalErich]

This speaks volumes about and the disconnect between current MMO design and what players want out of a game.

[NoName]

Gold farming is a half billion dollar a year industry? The world makes me sad sometimes...

[Wolvie]

Damn I guess cheaters DO prosper.

[digitalErich]

Damn I guess cheaters DO prosper.
You see cheaters...I see outdated game design choices being sidestepped.

[carnage11]

That's fucking pathetic.

[Wolvie]

You see cheaters...I see outdated game design choices being sidestepped.

You see outdated game design being sidestepped, I see pathetic bastards wasting money on even bigger pathetic bastards to play the game for them.

edit: in other words, bitches be too lazy to earn shit for themselves.

[digitalErich]

You see outdated game design being sidestepped, I see pathetic bastards wasting money on even bigger pathetic bastards to play the game for them.
Some people pay to have their lawns kept instead of spending two hours of their weekend doing it themselves. If your time (in this case, 2 hours) is worth more than the $20 to pay the gardener, then it makes sense. How is this any different?

Edit: Also, the second pathetic bastards you refer to? I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't be selling the gold is there wasn't profit in it. Is there worker exploitation with the gold selling operations? I guess, in as much as people signing up for shitty jobs they can walk away from, but most of the "exploitation" in gold selling is really the math looking bad on paper due to the relative values of foreign currencies. Oh no, someone made $150 a month playing WoW. What these articles don't tell you is that most of China makes significantly less than that working the same hours, but spending those hours in manual labor.

[Wolvie]

Some people pay to have their lawns kept instead of spending two hours of their weekend doing it themselves. If your time (in this case, 2 hours) is worth more than the $20 to pay the gardener, then it makes sense. How is this any different?

Because paying someone to get a lawn mowed gets you a mowed lawn, a chore done, a necessary task is completed.
Paying someone to float money and/or rare armors and items into a game gets you something you didn't earn. That's the idea behind WoW, your supposed to go on epic raids and get those rare items and gold yourself. But besides all that getting gold and rare items is hardly mandatory, that's how it's different.

Edit: In other words: mowed lawn= mandatory chore. Buying gold and armor for a MMO= buying shit you don't need for a frivolous past time.

[digitalErich]

Ok, here's another example...someone pays someone to wash and maintain their weekend yacht. Like I said, if someone values their time and has enough disposable income, they will pay to have someone else to take care of the more unfun parts of their hobbies.

I'm not saying this is right in the case of gold selling, I'm just saying that no one should be surprised given, what I consider to be, the outdated design of current MMOs. There would be no gold selling market if there were no gold sinks.

Also..."earning" gold? Have you played WoW? It's not like it takes skill or intelligence to rack up gold. The only thing is takes is time. Time=gold pure and simple. I see very little "earning" going on in modern MMOs. Sure, getting that BoP loot from the top level raid, you can make a case there, but then again no amount of gold can buy you that...your guild has to work for it. Sure you could bribe a guild with large sums of bought gold, but I doubt that is happening on any kind of level that warrants mentioning.

[Dr.Finger]

They specifically mention EVE Online in the article as having an economy complex enough to stave off large scale gold farming.

[Wolvie]

Ok, here's another example...someone pays someone to wash and maintain their weekend yacht. Like I said, if someone values their time and has enough disposable income, they will pay to have someone else to take care of the more unfun parts of their hobbies.

I'm not saying this is right in the case of gold selling, I'm just saying that no one should be surprised given, what I consider to be, the outdated design of current MMOs. There would be no gold selling market if there were no gold sinks.

Also..."earning" gold? Have you played WoW? It's not like it takes skill or intelligence to rack up gold. The only thing is takes is time. Time=gold pure and simple. I see very little "earning" going on in modern MMOs. Sure, getting that BoP loot from the top level raid, you can make a case there, but then again no amount of gold can buy you that...your guild has to work for it. Sure you could bribe a guild with large sums of bought gold, but I doubt that is happening on any kind of level that warrants mentioning.

Again your talking about something that equates to maintenance in the real world. A chore in the real world is important. Acquiring something in a game is not.
I'll give you an example. I will gladly pay to have someone change my oil, since I am a mechanical klutz. But I don't see the point in having someone give me something in a game I can get myself. You mentioned yourself how easy it is to get gold in the game.

The point of WoW is to work with your guild to get that epic loot, and it feels so so sweet to get it yourself instead of taking a quick, cheap, cop-out and just buying it through some sweat-shop gold farmer.

Also Blizzard frowns on gold farming and the sale of gold and epic loot in this manner. So by their own mouths buying this stuff and floating it into the game is cheating.

[digitalErich]

Maintaining your yacht in the real world is important? Really? So the guy that owns 5 Enzos and needs to change the oil in all of them has a "chore" on his hands? No, he has an expensive and time consuming hobby and willy likely pay money to reduce some of the time investment when it comes to more the more mundane aspects.

Again, gold selling is not something I condone, but people have been spending ridiculous money on ridiculous stuff for centuries if it means it gives them back some free time. The model for the gold selling market is nothing new, it's just the latest manifestation. The fact that people are continually surprised by it surprises me.

[Sazime]

This is the new way to redistribute wealth.

Poor guy in China needs to make money, so he sells fake money online to a rich guy in Europe/Australia/North America.

Everything you ever do will be effected by people that have more money than you. This is the real world, your fantasy worlds are not immune from it.

[digitalErich]

They specifically mention EVE Online in the article as having an economy complex enough to stave off large scale gold farming.
And this is really the discussion I want to have (since this topic does interest me). You can talk about "welfare epix" and laugh at the stupid/lazy gold buyers but the game model and design are what allow these real world operations to exist. There are solutions that stem from better and/or more robust design but it seems that some companies would rather take the RIAA route of swatting at flies (shutting down gold sites) or flat out jumping in the game themselves (Korean style MMOs).

Very few devs want to talk about what it would take to build a better game that makes the secondary market impossible or at the very least so undesirable as to not be worth anyone's time to game.

[digitalErich]

This is the new way to redistribute wealth.

Poor guy in China needs to make money, so he sells fake money online to a rich guy in Europe/Australia/North America.

Everything you ever do will be effected by people that have more money than you. This is the real world, your fantasy worlds are not immune from it.
Thank you. This is exactly what I was trying to say.

[Silverbaine]

eh.. never liked the idea of buying gold... just seems lieka big waste of hard earned cash.

[DarkDaY]

DigitalErich is right, I think its nuts but its all relative.

[Sazime]

eh.. never liked the idea of buying gold... just seems lieka big waste of hard earned cash.
Same here. I like playing the game, I don't needz teh epic lootz. :)

[digitalErich]

eh.. never liked the idea of buying gold... just seems lieka big waste of hard earned cash.
It's all relative. Let's say you want to earn 5k whatever in whatever game to increase your enjoyment (granted, perceived) of the game.

Let's say it takes you 20 hours to earn this 5k. You earn a salary such that you make $50 an hour at your job. Is paying someone $100 to have that 5k now a waste?

Is it any more of a waste to spend $15 for a movie ticket when you can rent the movie for $4 in 5 months? When talking about disposable income, what is or is not a waste is entirely relative to how much you make and how you value your time.

In my mind, paying for WoW gold is no less ridiculous than paying to have your car detailed (the 'cheating' aspect aside). Neither are necessary and some people are willing to pay for others to do the work for them, some aren't.

[divinechaos]

So people spend money on shit they don't NEED? I thought we'd understand that as gamers. I don't NEED Rock Band but the money was there so I bought it. Stop telling people what to do with their money, I say.

[carnage11]

So people spend money on shit they don't NEED? I thought we'd understand that as gamers. I don't NEED Rock Band but the money was there so I bought it. Stop telling people what to do with their money, I say.

Yeah, but if you can't even play a game to get the stuff, what's really the point of playing the game in the first place. It would be like someone buying a career on Rock Band with the expert songs already beaten. I dunno...lol.

[RMan]

But I don't see the point in having someone give me something in a game I can get myself.
In terms of human desire, it makes no difference that it’s in a game or not, if it’s not fun, then some people will pay to not do it. No matter how easy it is to get gold, it’s still not fun for most. You do get a sense of accomplishment from earning gold, that’s great, but that’s hardly universal. If I actually farmed enough gold for an epic flying mount, I wouldn’t feel any particular satisfaction, only sadness at the lost time spent doing boring, repetitive tasks.

[iVeY]

Amen divine. If the 100 bucks you spend on gold is worth it to you then go for it. If you will get a piece of armor that will make you happy enough to be worth the money then why should someone else tell you not to do it. People who care about this issue need to worry more about themselves and less about how others spend their money. Buying gold is not something I would do, but if my friend wanted to do it then more power to him. He earned the cash he is gonna spend on fake gold. I am in no position to tell someone else how to spend their own hard earned money.

[Sazime]

Yeah, but if you can't even play a game to get the stuff, what's really the point of playing the game in the first place. It would be like someone buying a career on Rock Band with the expert songs already beaten. I dunno...lol.
Some people like that. See: cheat codes.

[Demo_Boy]

I no longer play these games, but when I did, I had no qualms about dropping 10 bux here or there to keep my equipment at the same level as my hero so that the time I spent playing the game gave me maximum progress. Gold would come in at a much slower pace than my leveling, so I would outstrip my gear which would then cap my efficiency.

More damage per hour, less deaths per week, more progress per week. Maybe it amounted to 20 bux a month extra. I dont feel its a cheat. Its just removing interstitial cash grinds.

[carnage11]

I understand that. People can do what they want with their money. It's just really REALLY pathetic.


It's like paying someone to read a book for you. I dunno, just seems silly.

[Sazime]

It's like paying someone to read a book for you.
See: Cliff Notes.

Keep 'em come'n! I gots pockets full! :D

[carnage11]

It's like paying someone to jerk you off......


.....no wait, that's a good thing. :p

[Sazime]

It's like paying someone to jerk you off......
See: Happy Endings.

Ba-zing!

[Skywalkr]

This all speaks to how arficial and broken the economies are in a lot of games, WoW especially. A real player driven economy would be a lot harder to naturally game. But pretty much everything related to the economy in WoW sucks hard so far as I remember (ie, the really terrible crafting system).

And really, let's not ignore the fact that (at least back when I used to play) people were quite openly advertising selling gold in open channels and Blizzard did nothing to stop it, let alone crack down. My general impression is that they outwardly condem, but quietly condone it as it's something a portion of the playerbase have gotten used to and make use of quite extensively.

[digitalblue]

Here are the problems with selling gold/ leveling services etc.

1. It makes other players feel like thier acomplisments mean less. It's no lie that people play video games for at least a small part for a sense of acomplishment. Make thier acomplishment mean less and they feel cheated about thier hard work.

2. it's not regulated. Which leads to a larger possiblility of people losing thier hard earned money in what ammounts to theft or scams. Also it causes the in game economy to be disrupted. However in some cases it can cause the in game economy to a better standard for the player.

3. promotes the use of botting programs. again for the same reasons as the first issue.

I think if those three issues were resolved somehow then it will always be a problem. I personally don't have an issue about buying gold. The way I see if it you want to waste your money then go for it. However I would perfer there was a safe method to do this. IE Blizzard sets up a way to buy gold but sets limits on it so as not to flood the economy. However that would be really difficult to do and would require constant monitoring. So it will most likely never happen.

On a side note, paying someone to level your character is just a waste of your time. Your missing 90% of the game there and it shouldn't be allowed... ever.

[Aero Leviathan]

People talk about the gameplay model for MMORPGs being wrong or outdated, and I'm inclined to agree, but if it is so obviously so, the question is: why hasn't anyone come out with something better? Surely they would make a mint? Instead, all MMORPGs seem to follow the same basic formula (based on my cursory knowledge, feel free to correct me here).

Failing that, what exactly *would* be better? Do you have an idea for how to make an MMORPG without tedious grinding, yet also compelling enough that you'd want to play it in perpetuity? In none of such discussions, of which there have been many, have I heard such a thing proposed.

[digitalblue]

People talk about the gameplay model for MMORPGs being wrong or outdated, and I'm inclined to agree, but if it is so obviously so, the question is: why hasn't anyone come out with something better? Surely they would make a mint? Instead, all MMORPGs seem to follow the same basic formula (based on my cursory knowledge, feel free to correct me here).

Failing that, what exactly *would* be better? Do you have an idea for how to make an MMORPG without tedious grinding, yet also compelling enough that you'd want to play it in perpetuity? In none of such discussions, of which there have been many, have I heard such a thing proposed.

Ya know I've been thinking about what really makes a good MMORPG for a while. So far from what I've seen based on popularity there are several must haves for a MMO to be highly popular

1. A good storyline - I think what really rocketed WoW was that it's story line as an RTS was so well developed that it was easy to have a world setting that everyone was at least a little familure with.

2. PvP system - this also creates a larger player base and may be the hardest part of the game. IT requires a lot of balancing a forethought on how you would like it to affect your game.

3. Crafting system - Not nessicarly a needed item but it adds a lot however you need to make crafting equivalent to what can be 'found' in game

4. evolution - a method to keep the game evolving and updating regularly so that content doesn't become too repetitive. IE periodicly an invasion in a particular area or some other random event that goes off due to a quest completion or some other factor

5 PVE content solo content - Very important IMO. People don't always want to be forced into a group so a good portion of the game needs to have soloable content but at the same time a good portion needs to be group oriented to promote that side of the game.

I'm sure there is a lot more but I believe those are the the important parts. And not in any kind of order either. Just listed.

[vallor]

Getting currency in most MMOs isn't too hard because it often comes naturally through the treadmill activities that most MMOs are designed around. But grinding for currency simply for the sake of acquiring the currency is tedium beyond tedium.

The problem is that in a game people don't like it that they really aren't on a level playing field and that the playing field almost always tilts to accomodate the achievements of the "haves" (need a money sink! Need to nurf this or that! Need to make this encounter harder!).

With currency selling the "have nots" can narrow the gap slightly by trading real money to improve the quality of time they spend indulging in their hobby.

Those that claim currency in an MMO allows someone to gain a significent play advantage are creating a smoke cloud; most of the higher powered items are available only through gameplay (due to no drop/no trade/soulbound mechanics) no matter how much currency a player has. The "epic" items available for sale *usually* are only slightly more powerful than the run of the mill items other players have easy access to.

That MMOs still seem to have these built in requirements that require grinding for currency (e.g. Epic flying mounts at costs that most players would never naturally accumulate) are using out-dated and creative cop-out solutions to solving economic problems.

Instead of solving the problems they just introduce more problems as the common player feel like they MUST turn to gold farmers or forever be an obvious second class citizen in the game.

Then players that choose not to (or can't afford to) avail themselves of the gold farmers services start complaining that they cannot legitimately acquire these items. Since they are a substancial portion of the player base for many MMOs the company makes gold easier to come by either through more money drops or through increasing access to higher end items (see: daily quests in WoW or Instancing ala Lost Dungeons of Norrath in EQ).

Now the economy really tanks. With currency easier to get the gold sellers just lower their price opening their services to a whole new, and larger tier of people. With the regular players having so much extra money to toss around they are less likely to seek "deals" or haggle as part of any player run economy and therefore the cost of even common items shoots through the roof.

Eventually the currency is meaningless and completely devalued. Everyone is a virtual millionaire but at the same time a hamburger costs a million of whatever currency.

All because the designers didn't put any real thought into what money sinks they created.

Some solutions specific to WoW:
Useful temporary buffs purchasable from vendors at a reasonable cost. Make them cost about the same amount of money someone would earn from a daily. More XP for a certain amount of time, more faction for a certain amount of time (some zones have something like this available from the vendor who sells the faction items (like the rune from thrallmar that earns 5% XP for like half an hour).

The ability to control a mount from a flight path for a certain amount of money. This would allow me to deviate slightly from the fixed flying paths or at least allow me to signal the mount to let me down at any point along the flight path (with the exception of "out of bounds" places in the old world. There are a lot of times I've wanted to jump off a griffin or Wyvern cause it flew past the place I really wanted to be or maybe I saw a named I wanted to kill. You could do that in DAoC but you can't make the flight path mounts land :(

Allow me to give money to a "charity". This doesn't have to provide an in game benefit. For example if I give to a charity then maybe blizz donates some percentage to a real world charity. Maybe by reaching a certain % my character can wear a talbard with the logo of the charity on it. It would be interesting to see how I'd write that off on my taxes :)

Allow me to use in game currency to defray the cost of the monthly fee. EVE does this to a great effect.

None of these items requires a huge lump sum at a time, they are all small micro transactions that are much easier for people to deal with.

[dfr]

This is the new way to redistribute wealth.

Poor guy in China needs to make money, so he sells fake money online to a rich guy in Europe/Australia/North America.

Everything you ever do will be effected by people that have more money than you. This is the real world, your fantasy worlds are not immune from it.
sorry but thats not the way it works.
guy in a wealthy country hires chinese cheap laborers who work in "uncontrolled sweat shop environments" farming gold. yes the chinaman is making money but it's no different than working in a sneaker factory, the profit doesn't even scratch those guys (sur-)face.

[TrackZero]

Because paying someone to get a lawn mowed gets you a mowed lawn, a chore done, a necessary task is completed.
Paying someone to float money and/or rare armors and items into a game gets you something you didn't earn. That's the idea behind WoW, your supposed to go on epic raids and get those rare items and gold yourself. But besides all that getting gold and rare items is hardly mandatory, that's how it's different.

Edit: In other words: mowed lawn= mandatory chore. Buying gold and armor for a MMO= buying shit you don't need for a frivolous past time.

I'd argue that mowing your lawn isn't mandatory either. Both items are things paid for to make something look/operate better and use up time. I've bought gold in WoW before myself, it was cheap, the delivery was fast and I'm glad I did it. My time is valuable, sorry I'm not a high school kid on summer break and can WoW all day long.

[TrackZero]

the chinaman

Donny you're out of your element! Dude, the Chinaman is not the issue here!

[Zero]

"Okay, who let the Chinamen into my office?"

[dfr]

unable to edit, wasn't intended as racist slur. i apologize

[Trazzlo the Magnificant]

I tend to like the system Sony put in for EQ2. They have servers on which buying and selling are permitted, and others where it is not. That way, it caters to all play styles.

The problem is that gold farmers do impact the playability of the game, since those people are there to "work" and not to play. They get paid to produce, and none of that has anything to do with roleplaying, grouping, communication, sharing of resources, and teamwork. For people who actually prefer to play the game there needs to be an alternative, and splitting the server types makes sense. If you want to buy an end game character, there is a path for you.

[Craigtheplague]

I'd argue that mowing your lawn isn't mandatory either. Both items are things paid for to make something look/operate better and use up time. I've bought gold in WoW before myself, it was cheap, the delivery was fast and I'm glad I did it. My time is valuable, sorry I'm not a high school kid on summer break and can WoW all day long.

Actually, mowing your lawn is a necessity. If you don't mow your lawn, your yard looks like crap, it lowers the value of your neighbors' properties, and upsets your neighbors. When you see an ugly lawn, you wouldn't want to live in the house near it because you would associate that lawn's owner as white trash/redneck.

The cliff's notes aren't such a good example either. Students buy them so they don't have to spend time reading the book and still have enough information to pass the test or write a paper on that book. Therefore, those students pass the class and they can go to college and so on.

Cheat codes are a bad example also because they are free. Ahem, EA charged for cheat codes but I think we can all agree that anybody who purchased those can sit in the corner, wear a pointy hat, and label him/herself a fucking idiot.

In conclusion, the economy system in WoW needs an overhaul. If my hobby was to fix up old cars, I wouldn't pay somebody to do it for me.

[digitalErich]

If my hobby was to fix up old cars, I wouldn't pay somebody to do it for me.
I know people that do this, and they pay someone to pick up and properly dispose of used oil instead of driving to the recycling facility themselves...another example of if something is cheap enough and the perceived time value is there, people will pay.

[Craigtheplague]

I know people that do this, and they pay someone to pick up and properly dispose of used oil instead of driving to the recycling facility themselves...another example of if something is cheap enough and the perceived time value is there, people will pay.

If you don't dispose of the oil at the recycling facility, where are you going to put it? You'll have a jug of used oil sitting in the garage, taking up space, waiting to be spilled, or worse, potentially combust. Putting it down the drain is out of the question.

What happens if you don't exchange real money for virtual gold with a gold farmer? You'll have worse equipment in a game, potentially preventing you from advancing in some quests. Your friends will still hang out with you, your wife will still have sex with you, you'll still have your job, your morning coffee, etc. I hope you see where I am going with this.

[digitalErich]

And you ca just as easily stop restoring old cars as quit an MMO. Gold selling is not some new thing or an anomaly...it's just the free market extended to a video game, nothing more.

[MacD]

Just to drive the analogy so far up the wall that the point may actually come across: why pay for a ford mustang when we can all drive model T's?

The whole neccessity vs free use of dosposable income/time is a strawman argument. It boils down to 'I feel that you shouldn't, this is why', on either side of the argument, but it is not important or even relevant to the case here. Not really. At one point this thread did veer into a path which was relevant: MMO game mechanics.

They suck.

It's actually worse than that: there's are very few interesting ones. Which is why something like grinding (be it for xp or gold) even exists. Grinding is something which almost by definition is not fun. People play games to have fun. Grinding is not fun. The only time grinding can be fun is when you do it with friends and chat, in which case it isn't even the grinding which is fun but the social interaction.

RTS', FPS', puzzle games, name any game except MMO's, these have game mechanics which are fun. They are fun because they operate off skill (be that twitch based or mental based skill). They are fun because the time invested translate into you personally develloping a better skillset whith which to play the game. That is what makes games fun. Many MMO's do not have this; th combat is not fun or skill based....it is stat based, and the stats are based on time spent ingame, for xp and gold.

One of the few MMO's to actually have actual nonstat gameplay is Guild Wars (even if you could say that getting some of the skills were based off grinding). But things might get better: Huxley (from what I've heard) might be better. What I'm waiting for is any MMO where the actual gameplay is fun, wher playing the actual game is fun due to what I'm doing, so tha there is a state of flow. Like playing SFII, or Unreal Tournament, or Starcraft...where I must use my tactics, strategies and input commands in a way that I fully enter a state of flow which gets better the more I grok [google this] the game.

WoW upped the ante for making MMO's accessible. The next big MMO is the one which actually adds fun gameplay. The only problem will be that it will per force be limited in the number of players, since gameplay is so easily bracketed into a genre (fps, rts, action, fighter, etc) and to get good gameplay it must be focussed, thus limiting the number of players (an fps-er won't want to play an rts-mmo).

I dunno, but I think I'm having some difficulty getting my last point across. It's late and I've had one beer too many, but still, I hope someone gets something out of this monologue :P

[Craigtheplague]

And you ca just as easily stop restoring old cars as quit an MMO. Gold selling is not some new thing or an anomaly...it's just the free market extended to a video game, nothing more.

True, but most people that restore old cars sell them back at a higher price than what they bought them for. If they don't, the experience of diagnosing and repairing these cars will help that person if his car breaks down somewhere. That person will be able to fix it himself quickly saving time and money.

[Craigtheplague]

Whole bunch of text.

I dunno, but I think I'm having some difficulty getting my last point across. It's late and I've had one beer too many, but still, I hope someone gets something out of this monologue :P

I need to stop arguing the analogies. It will spawn into a debate about real world economics and sociology.

You made a good point. If a game makes you grind a lot to advance, it is not a good game. A game should be fun 100% of the time. Blizzard has created an epidemic. Hopefully, Starcraft 2 will be the cure.

[Wolvie]

Maintaining your yacht in the real world is important? Really? So the guy that owns 5 Enzos and needs to change the oil in all of them has a "chore" on his hands? No, he has an expensive and time consuming hobby and willy likely pay money to reduce some of the time investment when it comes to more the more mundane aspects.

Again, gold selling is not something I condone, but people have been spending ridiculous money on ridiculous stuff for centuries if it means it gives them back some free time. The model for the gold selling market is nothing new, it's just the latest manifestation. The fact that people are continually surprised by it surprises me.


You just made my point, playing WoW is a time consuming hobby, but like any other hobby it's one in your spare time. It's also one that requires zero outside help. It's all you(and your guild), there's no maintenance or anything that you can't do yourself(outside of having 39 other people for a 40 man raid).

More to the point it's a game. Having someone send you cash and items you didn't earn isn't like someone doing a chore for you, it's like paying for a cheat code that gives you cash, weapons and other stuff. In short, these are expensive cheats.

Rich people always will get the goods because their rich and lazy, same shit different day.

God this shit reminds me why I quit WoW. Too much pointless bullshit.

[digitalErich]

You seem to think I condone this. I don't. It simply makes perfect sense to me that it exists.

[Wolvie]

You seem to think I condone this. I don't. It simply makes perfect sense to me that it exists.

No, I was explaining how I see the practice, like you were. And like I said, rich and lazy people will always use the money shortcut to get ahead.

[TrackZero]

In conclusion, the economy system in WoW needs an overhaul. If my hobby was to fix up old cars, I wouldn't pay somebody to do it for me.

There's no economy to change. It's dynamic. If money was easier to earn, then the prices go up, if it's not, vice versa. Time is the true currency of an MMO.

Besides, it's all moot. It's not like the really good equipment isn't Bind on Pickup anyways, so having that extra gold isn't getting me that far.

[TrackZero]

What happens if you don't exchange real money for virtual gold with a gold farmer? You'll have worse equipment in a game, potentially preventing you from advancing in some quests. Your friends will still hang out with you, your wife will still have sex with you, you'll still have your job, your morning coffee, etc. I hope you see where I am going with this.

Through a series of bad analogies just to follow your line of logic at being pissed over gold farming? Yeah, we get it. But you're not going to stop it and the system won't change. Let it go.

[TrackZero]

No, I was explaining how I see the practice, like you were. And like I said, rich and lazy people will always use the money shortcut to get ahead.

Again, it's a time based economy. Don't get me wrong, it's "broken" by that very nature, but that's what MMOs are based around, not skill. At the same time I'm there to have fun, if I have more fun by buying gold, so be it. I shouldn't feel like shit because I don't have as many hours to piss away in a day at the game as other people, simply due to my occupation. Calling me rich and lazy is a childish platitude. You don't think I wouldn't love to spend more time in game?

[Wolvie]

Again, it's a time based economy. Don't get me wrong, it's "broken" by that very nature, but that's what MMOs are based around, not skill. At the same time I'm there to have fun, if I have more fun by buying gold, so be it. I shouldn't feel like shit because I don't have as many hours to piss away in a day at the game as other people, simply due to my occupation. Calling me rich and lazy is a childish platitude. You don't think I wouldn't love to spend more time in game?

I calls it like sees it, telling the truth is never childish. If you were there to have fun you'd just play the game and not worry about how much gold or crap you have.
No, your taking the game seriously, so seriously you feel the need to buy gold and things with real money.

See when I played the game I was taking care of my toddler daughters, working a full time job, and being a husband. Not once did I think "gee I'm not putting enough time into this game! I need more gold n shit! Where's my credit card!"

To be honest the reason I gave up on the game was because I couldn't sink the time necessary for the game to be fun. I think you are at that point yourself, but your stubbornly keeping at it and using shortcuts. Perhaps it's time to break the habit and find a less time consuming game? You'll probably have more fun and save money.

Edit: BTW the reason I called people that buy gold and stuff "rich and lazy" is because I thought any one with a budget or common sense wouldn't do this.

[digitalErich]

You buy videogames with real money. I'm with Track on this. If you spend 10 hours a week playing WoW, how is buying $100 worth of gold any different than spending $500 on the PS3 you play 10 hours a week with respect to "common sense" or a budget?

In my eyes $100 of WoW gold and any videogame fall into the same budget bucket...luxury hobby expenditures.

[TrackZero]

I calls it like sees it, telling the truth is never childish.

Making a logical viewpoint isn't, implying an insult at another person without even attempting to question your own argument for obvious holes is just childish. We all "call it like we see it", the difference is some of us take the time to make sure we understand the view first, or realize there's parts we can't see and shouldn't make assumptions on.

If you were there to have fun you'd just play the game and not worry about how much gold or crap you have.

You mean in a game with a massive social backend that's quite literally about experience, money and equipment I should ignore that entire part of the games design and enjoy being told to fuck off when I ask for help with an instance because my gear is trash, since I don't have all day to play? Yeah, that makes a whole whack of sense. *golf clap*

No, you're taking the game seriously, so seriously you feel the need to buy gold and things with real money.

See when I played the game I was taking care of my toddler daughters, working a full time job and being a husband. Not once did I think "gee I'm not putting enough time into this game! I need more gold n shit! Where's my credit card!"


Fixed that for you. I play the game the way I want, you don't get to judge whether I'm not playing it the way you think I should. You don't like this? Speak to the developer, but don't attack me as a person because of how I choose to enjoy the entertainment medium they've put before me is different than you. Fascist.

To be honest the reason I gave up on the game was because I couldn't sink the time necessary for the game to be fun.

*At this point I realize I'm talking to someone who's contradicting his own argument....*

I think you are at that point yourself, but your stubbornly keeping at it and using shortcuts. Perhaps it's time to break the habit and find a less time consuming game? You'll probably have more fun and save money.

Self-projection for the lose! I bought gold, once, 2 damn years ago in the game, because at that time the in-game economy was rough and I didn't have the time to put in to keep up with my friends. It was still fun, I just wanted to make sure I was on par with them. Having the option to do so instead of being left in the dust was great. But thanks for trying to imagine why I play the game and what person I am.

Edit: BTW the reason I called people that buy gold and stuff "rich and lazy" is because I thought any one with a budget or common sense wouldn't do this.

And now you insult me by saying I don't have common sense. Just because you don't have money to spend on yourself, doesn't mean the rest of us don't. Fuck off and don't tell me whether I'm allowed to have a good time or not based on your life. It's not my problem.

[Wolvie]

*page long diatribe*

Damn guess I hit a lil too close to home huh? I think you overreacted, and quite honestly blew up because I touched a raw nerve.

Ya see the thing you obviously didn't get is that I wasn't "judging" you. I was doing two things, and those would be:

A) Explaining how I can never understand why someone could blow money like that on something you can get for free.

and

B) I was using you as an example to show why I wouldn't waste money like that.

In short I called it like I saw it. And you took personal offense to it, when there really wasn't anything personal in my responses.