Nintendo "Disappointed" in E3 Showing

[Evil Avatar]

Edge (by way of VGChartz (http://news.vgchartz.com/news.php?id=1706)) has posted a quote (http://www.edge-online.com/news/nintendo-%E2%80%9Cdisappointed%E2%80%9D-with-its-e3-performance) from Nintendo Marketing boss Cammie Dunaway, revealing that Nintendo was disappointed with their E3 performance for not appealing more to hardcore gamers.

Nintendo of America sales and marketing boss Cammie Dunaway has revealed that the company was disappointed with its showing at this year’s E3 Media and Business Summit, which drew criticism from some sections of the gaming community, notably core gamers.

“I would say the message is we were disappointed with our performance at E3,” Dunaway told VGChartz. “There were titles like Wario which we think will be really fun titles that we should have showcased.

“We were excited that Mr. Miyamoto made the commitment that Pikmin is coming. It would have been nice if we could have said that on stage. But, we think it was a good recognition for us that we care for our core fans, and not just the new people who are now discovering Nintendo.”I know I would be disappointed if my company had the #1 console system and the #1 handheld system. No where to go from there but down, right?

[Sl1pstream]

We were dissapointed with our showing? Is this their way of acting as if they still care? Because it's not working for me.

[Loki_09]

Wario and Pikmin? I dont think those titles could have saved their E3 showing. Is that really what the "core" gamer wants?

[Variable Gear]

It's not working for me either, and I'm their second-biggest fan. Stop lying, Nintendo!

[Heretic Machine]

Wario and Pikmin? I dont think those titles could have saved their E3 showing. Is that really what the "core" gamer wants?

Well, I want them, and I know lots of gamers who want them; so yes.

[alienchild]

Give us more DS Zelda please! And more New Mario Bros.!!! (or whatever the name was!!!!!)... and a game about an inverted i!!!!!!!

[Loki_09]

Well, I want them, and I know lots of gamers who want them; so yes.

I'm sure there are. Too each their own I guess. I just cant get excited about Wario and Pikmin.

[JazGalaxy]

As much as I love Nintendo, until their games get rid of the computer assistance for players in last place/near death, their games will not appeal to me as a gamer.

Mario Kart on SNES worked perfectly without giving the last place player nothing but blue shells and lighting bolts. Why make the game almost unplayable now?

[trip1eX]

I thought MotionPlus was the big hardcore announcement for Nintendo at E3. I saw that as a big positive for the future of games on the Wii.

[DarkDaY]

Nor is it working for me, Nintendo lost me this generation in placement of me they got my mom and 40 other people who are happy to buy one game for it that they know nothing about hoping it will by like wii sports.

I guess it makes good dollar sense for them, Im just not interested in anything they have anymore this gen.
Its a bizzarro generation.

[gojira]

Yeah, 'cause Chronos Trigger on the DS isn't enough... oh wait, I'm playing Final Fantasy IV on the DS too. Geeze that might be more than enough.

I don't own any of the "big three" consoles yet, although I do own a DS Light. A Wii is definitely a consideration for my first purchase, right up there with XBox. PS3, not so much. But I'm not sure how they could be more "hard core" on the DS, without quitting my job and playing 80 hours a week.

[bean19]

Yeah, because Wario is enough to absolutely get me excited about the Wii. . . FFS lady, the probelm with the Wii isn't just that you didn't show the right games, it's that you aren't making them and you aren't enticing 3rd party developers to make them. Plus, your system will never appeal to core gamers as much because it is designed for short, casual games that make use of the Wii-mote rather than skill-based, narrative-driven core games. Plus, even if you made one of these games, the lack of decent online features means that core players will STILL prefer the Xbox 360 and PS3.

What we needed in your E3 wasn't fucking Wario! We needed you to announce a Wii Advance that plays all the old Wii games but has decent hardware that can also play Wii Advance games, and has a suite of online features making it at least comparable to the PS3.

[KSmitty]

Plus, your system will never appeal to core gamers as much because it is designed for short, casual games that make use of the Wii-mote rather than skill-based, narrative-driven core games. Plus, even if you made one of these games, the lack of decent online features means that core players will STILL prefer the Xbox 360 and PS3.

How is the Wii designed for short games and not possible for skill based narrative games?

[bapenguin]

I got one of their "Thanks for Attending our Media Briefing" cards in the mail the other day. I guess they really feel bad for that crap. At least I have Reggie's signature now.

[Flatpicker]

Can we re-title this.
Viewers Disappointed in Nintendo's "E3" showing?

At least we were told that Pikmin is on the way. I'll take that.

trip1eX: I'm not paying for another add on that may have limited support. Nintendo can save the MotionPlus for Wii2 or WiiAdvance or Wiiiiii or whatever as far as I'm concerned.

[Baron Samedi]

What Nintendo doesn't get about core gamers is that they think core gamers were mainly disappointed by the no Mario or Zelda show.

[Generation ABXY]

What Nintendo doesn't get about core gamers is that they think core gamers were mainly disappointed by the no Mario or Zelda show.

Weren't they? That's one of the biggest complaints I've heard...

While I certainly wish there was more, I was pretty happy with the confirmation of a new Mario, Zelda and Pikmin, and I think Wario will keep me fairly happy until Animal Crossing. Of course, I'm not a one-console gamer anymore, so even if it doesn't, I'll have elsewhere to turn and probably won't even notice...

[slothy]

I was pretty happy with the confirmation of a new Mario, Zelda and Pikmin

Heh, announcing that they're working on it was a surprise? As opposed to them announcing that they're done with those games? :)

I'm sure Nintendo are always working on new versions of all those games, they just don't show them until they are happy with what they have. So announcing that they're hard at work on them is a total non-announcement.

[Froggy]

Plus, your system will never appeal to core gamers as much because it is designed for short, casual games that make use of the Wii-mote rather than skill-based, narrative-driven core games. Plus, even if you made one of these games, the lack of decent online features means that core players will STILL prefer the Xbox 360 and PS3.

What we needed in your E3 wasn't fucking Wario! We needed you to announce a Wii Advance that plays all the old Wii games but has decent hardware that can also play Wii Advance games, and has a suite of online features making it at least comparable to the PS3.

Bitter words from a bitter fanboy.

[PopoWRX]

My main complaint is the lack of intriguing third party or new (ip) first party games. Also, where are the RPGs? I'd like more of those and more SRPGs too.

Madworld looks great and I'm looking forward to Red Steel II (even though the first had gimpy controls). I just want more of that.

I'm not looking for rehashes of games but new games.

That being said, I'm more a PC gamer so the Wii and the 360 are more my tertiary machines behind even my DS.

[AlwaysOn222]

Nintendos E3 Show sucked hard!!! Where is my Kid Icarus?! Punch Out? Mario or Zelda? I mean they were on stage for like what 1½ hour?! And they mention Pikimin AFTER the show?!?!?! My God....

The only thing Nintendo showed at E3 was that they don't need core gamers anymore and that all they care about is selling accesoars and causual games. I mean seriously Wii Motion Plus?!?! So now I have to pay for a working controller?! Riiiight.... no way im gonna pay extra for that wii mote 1,5...

[NationalKato]

Can we re-title this.
Viewers Disappointed in Nintendo's "E3" showing?

But it's Nintendo making the statement. We already know that viewers were disappointed.

[Sl1pstream]

I thought MotionPlus was the big hardcore announcement for Nintendo at E3. I saw that as a big positive for the future of games on the Wii.

You mean that thing they didn't even bother telling developers about before publicly announcing it?

[Baron Samedi]

You mean that thing they didn't even bother telling developers about before publicly announcing it?

You mean the thing that let's you play fetch?

[Lutheran]

How is the Wii designed for short games and not possible for skill based narrative games?


Its not , thats just more Bean drivel. I am as disappointed as anyone over the second half of this year as far as retail Wii products. Wiiware does kick some ass though plus there are a few nice games coming this winter and I think next year will be huge for Nintendo.I say this from a Wii60 perspective, the Wii is not my main console but its a hell of a 2nd console.

[pseudopseudo]

You mean that thing they didn't even bother telling developers about before publicly announcing it?

I think he's talking about that thing that should've been part of the system to begin with.

It's...

http://www.retrotrader.com/catalog/images/zzz22g%20014.jpg

...all over again.

[Flatpicker]

Its not , thats just more Bean drivel. I am as disappointed as anyone over the second half of this year as far as retail Wii products. Wiiware does kick some ass though plus there are a few nice games coming this winter and I think next year will be huge for Nintendo.I say this from a Wii60 perspective, the Wii is not my main console but its a hell of a 2nd console.


I'd almost agree with Bean for one reason.
The Wii controller gets awkward to hold and manipulate with longer games.
Seems like shorter games allow your arm to rest.

[T-Rex Commando]

Wario and Pikmin? I dont think those titles could have saved their E3 showing. Is that really what the "core" gamer wants?
Uh, both titles come from really excellent series and I'd imagine that they'd appeal highly to your average Nintendo "core" gamer. If "core" gamers scoff at fun games, then gaming is truly dead.

[pseudopseudo]

I'd almost agree with Bean for one reason.
The Wii controller gets awkward to hold and manipulate with longer games.
Seems like shorter games allow your arm to rest.

I'll agree with that. When I played through No More Heroes, it seemed like the only time I stopped was to give my arm a break.

[Justin_Bailey]

I think Nintendo already plans to make amends to the hardcore community. High Voltage announced today that Nintendo themselves will be showing off The Conduit at PAX.

Who knows, they might even be publishing it.

[Xerxes]

I felt bad for them. That was the only on I got to watch, and was very very sad. I felt most embarrassed for Miyamoto. Ok, maybe calling Cammie "milf" through out her appearance. Hmmm, Reggie and the numbers actually was a downer.

[bean19]

How is the Wii designed for short games and not possible for skill based narrative games?
You are probably baiting me, so I hesitated at biting. Just for fun, after I answer this, will you please reply and say if you already new this stuff?

The strength of the Wii is playing with friends on your couch and/or simulating play. While it is not impossible to take this party game friendly control scheme and adapt it to something skill-based or to provide a narrative (narratives are completely unrelated to hardware), the hardware can't deliver visuals that help make narrative games compelling.

It CAN be done, and certain games will get past the controls and hardware limitations to do it (for instance, Fatal Frame may be amazing with the Wii-mote. . . then again, it might be better with a traditional analog stick because physically aiming at the screen can be a chore and is often much like piloting a straw with a jetpack). However, I'd still prefer to play Fatal Frame on a next gen system with good graphics as I find that horror games in particular need to have good graphics to suspend my disbelief.

Note to others in this thread: I have decided to simply ignore fanboys and trolls who are not interested in a discussion about what they think Nintendo needs to announce in order to get the core audience excited about the Wii. If you want to talk about this, then that's great. If not, send your ugly messages in the form of PMs. I know these opinions are not popular, but when all the trolls and kids start playing Snarky Forums 2, it scares off the people who have something meaningful to say.

I won't restate your position in a coherent way for you so that it can be responded to. I won't restate my opinion because you've made assumptions about it that are false and that come from a land where you have familiar and comfortable insults that suit the targets you like to imagine. I will simply ignore you. The admins aren't willing to pluck you guys, so I'm going to have to keep a private garden, and while I more than welcome anyone who disagrees with me, half-formed arguments and repeated insults coined by the cleverer trolls and reused by the dim will earn you a place on the trash heap.

[bean19]

Bitter words from a bitter fanboy.
Here is an example. At one point, a flame like this that adds nothing to the conversation would have resulted in a naked man with a hammer.

On the trash heap.

[bean19]

Hmmm, Reggie and the numbers actually was a downer.
This is as big a deal to you as other issues on the Wii? Reggie has always come off to me as someone who is probably a capable executive, good in a boardroom, and reasonably good as a speaker, but he has no idea how to excite people. Still, I'm interested in the message. . . not the messenger. Tell me things so I can be excited about Nintendo instead of disappointed.

[Xerxes]

This is as big a deal to you as other issues on the Wii? Reggie has always come off to me as someone who is probably a capable executive, good in a boardroom, and reasonably good as a speaker, but he has no idea how to excite people. Still, I'm interested in the message. . . not the messenger. Tell me things so I can be excited about Nintendo instead of disappointed.

What? I'm just saying they didn't have anything to say.

[Dukefrukem]

since when do we rely on VGChartz as credible news? who knows how this was translated.

[bean19]

since when do we rely on VGChartz as credible news? who knows how this was translated.

VGChartz has posted bogus or inflammatory stories before? I know of some sites that are really crappy, but I wasn't aware that VGChartz is on that list. Some people try to discredit them because they do not like the sales results they display (the most frequent being that they don't do anything to offset pack-in title sales), but I haven't read anyone that had more than an opinion that they don't trust them.

I'm being serious. Do you have a link to a story that discredits this site or any of their news stories, or can you discredit any of their stories with contrary evidence?

[Variable Gear]

The strength of the Wii is playing with friends on your couch and/or simulating play. While it is not impossible to take this party game friendly control scheme and adapt it to something skill-based or to provide a narrative (narratives are completely unrelated to hardware), the hardware can't deliver visuals that help make narrative games compelling.
That's just FUD pure and simple. Sure, graphics matter. They have always mattered, and the will always matter. However, at the end of the day, gameplay is king. Why do people play Dwarf Fortress? Is it because of the graphics? Why do people play No More Heroes? Is it because of the graphics?

And, to your second point, the controller is more than competent for traditional games. Aiming with the Wii Remote is just as good as using a control stick. The Wii Remote has been used well in traditional games, such as Super Mario Galaxy, and it will continue to be used well in the future. You're playing the wrong games if you think otherwise.

[bean19]

Sure, graphics matter. They have always mattered, and the will always matter. Why do people play No More Heroes?
How did "No More Heroes" sell?

And, to your second point, the controller is more than competent for traditional games. Aiming with the Wii Remote is just as good as using a control stick.
I believed the metaphor I used was "like trying to pilot a straw with a jetpack". The Wii-mote is far from perfect, and now that it is winning the console war, I would think that we could talk about this honestly instead of people saying simply, "No, you're wrong". Do you believe that the pointer is easy to use or that it, as I said, has extremely sensitive control that can be tiresome to use.

The Wii Remote has been used well in traditional games, such as Super Mario Galaxy, and it will continue to be used well in the future.
It was pretty good in Super Metroid too, and I can name a few others that aren't party games or very simple games with party mini-games providing the gameplay. When I said that the Wii's strength is single-console party games, did you not understand that? That statement doesn't imply in any way what you seem to be responding to. . . I'm not sure, but you seem to be responding to me as if I said the Nintendo Wii is completely incapable of delivering traditional games.

What I said was that due to the poor hardware and poor online, the console will never truly be aimed at core audiences. Even if you create a game like Fatal Frame that may very well be improved by the controls (or may not, sometimes the Wii controls HURT games), I would prefer the experience on the Xbox 360 or the PS3 because I think that with better graphics it would be scarier. Plus, I would absolutely love a multiplayer Fatal Frame. You could do it so that there is still only the one little Japanese girl, but if you had a friend play multiplayer with you, he or she could play as a little boy ghost who can help out by luring the spirits away from you. He could slip through physical barriers and can lift light objects (like additional film). Meanwhile, you both have voice, so you can hear your friend screaming when something grabs his character (that would be hilarious).

There are games on the PS2, Xbox, and Gamecube that are really fun, and the Wii has fun games, and will have more. However, if Gears of War 2 had a much lower res version that came out for the original Xbox that had online, but without voice and cross-game matching and friend's lists, do you think that it would be popular with core audiences? How about if Microsoft licensed rights to use the Wii-mote technology for the original Xbox and then made a low res version with poor online features but with the Wii-mote?

Gameplay is the most important thing, and as long as Nintendo keeps innovating so that they use the Wii-mote to good effect then traditional games will be good on the Wii. . . but they still won't look good enough or have the online features to which hardcore audiences are drawn.

I realize that a LOT of the posters read a post and then assume that the poster must also think X or Y. I'm making very specific and qualified statements on purpose.

[bean19]

On the Fatal Frame idea. . . I have thought about this some more. Maybe the haunted house you are in is actually an abandoned academy for boys that used to be run by the government. It received low funding and housed many orphans. This attracted an unsavory headmaster and his followers who became faculty and then committed unspeakable acts at the school. Part of the plot of the game is that the boy ghost is still in peril and at one point you are grabbed by the headmaster. From the girl's point of view, her helpful ghost has just been drug away kicking and screaming, but from the helper's point of view, you've just been spun around by a wicked, evil looking ghost and then hoisted on to his shoulder, after the cut scene plays, he starts saying terrible things to you as you are taken away, powerless to help yourself (though you may kick and jerk, and a certain amount of kicking and jerking may earn you an achievement, if not your freedom). . . the player is slowly hauled to his grim death and the screen goes black on the helper player's side. . . innocuous messages appear on the screen and creepy whispers are heard in the darkness, children's laughter, and then you hear footsteps coming towards you.

The first player has found your "corpse" (you are a ghost, so it is just your ghostly body) mutilated and hanging by a meat hook. You gasp to life the moment she finds you so to her this corpse has just come to life while to you, your screen has just come from creep-out weirdness back to the game where you see the main character gasping and stepping back in fear.

[31 Flavas]

The strength of the Wii is playing with friends on your couch and/or simulating play. While it is not impossible to take this party game friendly control scheme and adapt it to something skill-based or to provide a narrative (narratives are completely unrelated to hardware), the hardware can't deliver visuals that help make narrative games compelling.Comon, bean, you know this to be a fallacy. Visuals DO NOT make a game. I mean, fuck man, when it was NOT know that Megaman 9 was also going to be on 360 and PS3 Hi-Def hardcore gamers were "compelled" and ready to firebomb Capcom HQ. Because they wouldn't be able to buy and play a game with 8-BIT STYLE GRAPHICS?

Oh right, you wanted those HI-DEF 8-bit style graphics. Makes ALLLLL the difference in the world. *Laugh*

It CAN be done, and certain games will get past the controls and hardware limitations to do it (for instance, Fatal Frame may be amazing with the Wii-mote. . . then again, it might be better with a traditional analog stick because physically aiming at the screen can be a chore and is often much like piloting a straw with a jetpack).But yet, when Microsoft and Sony decide to implement Wii-mote and/or Motion+ control in their next generation systems everything is going to be hunkey-dorey, eh? Don't you dare deny it. If you could do Jedi lightsaber battles with 1:1 control on your xbox 360 or PS3, you'd be all over it like stink on poo-poo.

However, I'd still prefer to play Fatal Frame on a next gen system with good graphics as I find that horror games in particular need to have good graphics to suspend my disbelief.Yet no one wanted to buy RE4 for GameCube, the version with clearly better graphics, when a PS2 version was coming out. And, geeze, you just got done telling me that video gamers have standards. You know, they always buy the version with the best graphics. But apparently they will bend or break "the rules" when it is convenient to them.

Kind of like how if a Jedi lightsaber game with 1:1 control were to come out on Wii and all the 360 and PS3 versions had was button pushing.

[Xerxes]

The gamecube version of RE 4 had better graphics?

And the wii mote will never make a good lightsaber game. It's too inaccurate. I have no faith and their add on either.

[31 Flavas]

The gamecube version of RE 4 had better graphics?Yes, it's true.

And the wii mote will never make a good lightsaber game. It's too inaccurate. I have no faith and their add on either.But a Sony or Microsoft wii-mote would, right? Well there goes Bean's argument that motion controls suck.

[Xerxes]

Yes, it's true.

But a Sony or Microsoft wii-mote would, right? Well there goes Bean's argument that motion controls suck.

No. A sony or microsoft wiimote would suck as well. I would say see Sixxaxxis, but that's mostly dead. It's a gimmick. One that does ok for what it is but I don't find it all that impressive. I mean if it actually was even close to 75 percent accurate, it might be something to behold. Other wise, alot of time is spent "waggling." Ok, it's not that bad but it's close. I have to say the other males in my family are MOST impressed with Tiger Woods golf. <shrug>

I'm not sure of bean's argument. I ignored most of it. But if it's enhanced graphics couldn't hurt all the waggling, I'd buy that assessment. I doubt MS or Sony though has the first party fortitude to put out the crap Wii players want. I make fun of Miyamoto's joke (http://www.castle-vidcons.com/comics/2008/07/cv0047.jpg)but most likely it will sell like hot cakes.

[bean19]

Comon, bean, you know this to be a fallacy. Visuals DO NOT make a game.
Never said they did. In fact, if you are reading well, you'll see that I said that gameplay is most important. Again, I'm saying highly qualified and specific things on purpose. If you can't make fine distinctions and must see all things in colors of fandom, this is not a conversation you are tall enough to ride.

Yet no one wanted to buy RE4 for GameCube, the version with clearly better graphics, when a PS2 version was coming out.
What? The RE4 on Gamecube was the inferior version for a number of reasons. . . only one of them was graphics. I don't understand your example or the point you are trying to make with it. You seem to still be assuming that I'm saying things that I'm not. If you want to fight a strawman, at least do us all a favor and tell us which imagined argument you are replying to.

[bean19]

But a Sony or Microsoft wii-mote would, right? Well there goes Bean's argument that motion controls suck.
Again, where are you getting this? I've said that the pointer function of the Wii-mote is HIGHLY over-sensitive. My hope is that the lightsaber game is great but my guess is that all of the lightsaber motions will be simulated by the direction you move the Wii-mote but will all basically be forward attacks. You'll get a block button on the nunchuck, but everything you can do with the motion controls could have been easily mapped to a single button press (and an analog stick for directional attacks).

However, none of that will have anything to do with the highly sensitive pointer (the only Wii-mote function I have said is highly oversensitive). Again, please remember that I am saying very specific and qualified statements. If you want to argue against your own invented assumptions, that's cool. Just don't attribute those assumptions to me Crazytown.

[KSmitty]

You are probably baiting me, so I hesitated at biting. Just for fun, after I answer this, will you please reply and say if you already new this stuff?

The strength of the Wii is playing with friends on your couch and/or simulating play. While it is not impossible to take this party game friendly control scheme and adapt it to something skill-based or to provide a narrative (narratives are completely unrelated to hardware), the hardware can't deliver visuals that help make narrative games compelling..
And I would argue that there is very little skill based gameplay on the 360. And only a few titles that have compelling narratives and even given those I would add the qualifier 'For a Videogame'. Visuals are only one part of gameplay and I am not going to say they are unimportant, but a good game is a good game beyond the visuals. Visuals should enhance the gameplay experience NOT define it. If they do then you and I are playing games for two entirely different reasons.


It CAN be done, and certain games will get past the controls and hardware limitations to do it (for instance, Fatal Frame may be amazing with the Wii-mote. . . then again, it might be better with a traditional analog stick because physically aiming at the screen can be a chore and is often much like piloting a straw with a jetpack). However, I'd still prefer to play Fatal Frame on a next gen system with good graphics as I find that horror games in particular need to have good graphics to suspend my disbelief..
Really so the first Fatal Frame wasn't good? How about the first Resident Evil? Silent Hill? The majority of the staples of the horror game genre came about long before character models were anything close to real. I don't need top of the line visuals just good camera work, music and direction. Resident Evil scared me more than a few times and Chris and Jill character models were blocky as hell, even back then. The controls on the Wii are not a hinderance most developers simply have not implemented themn well, as when they do they don't feel like a chore at all. Moving your wrist 30 degress to the left/right is no different than moving your thumb 30 degrees up and down.


Note to others in this thread: I have decided to simply ignore fanboys and trolls who are not interested in a discussion about what they think Nintendo needs to announce in order to get the core audience excited about the Wii.
I don't think there is anything Nintendo can do to get the core audience excited about the Wii. The overwhelming majority of them have written the console off as an underpowered gimmick that is incapable of making any good games.

[bean19]

Really so the first Fatal Frame wasn't good? How about the first Resident Evil? Silent Hill? The majority of the staples of the horror game genre came about long before character models were anything close to real.
Have your expectations not changed with each new generation of consoles? I know that with each new bump, it requires graphics of that caliber to impress me. Sadly, even games that were once beautiful on the PS2 or PSX that I replay are no longer as impressive and they certainly aren't as immersive. Are they good games? Sure. But are they as immersive as they could be if they were remade on the Xbox 360 and PS3?

Moving your wrist 30 degress to the left/right is no different than moving your thumb 30 degrees up and down.
Accept that a tiny movement on an analog stick feels natural and fine, but holding your wrist steady and making fine movements for long periods of time without over-steering the highly sensitive pointer can be tiresome and frustrating.

I don't think there is anything Nintendo can do to get the core audience excited about the Wii.
They could announce a Wii Advance that has at least comparable technology to the 2 year old PS3 and 3 year old Xbox 360 as well as having a set of online features at least comparable to the PS3, but hopefully as good as those on the Xbox 360.

The overwhelming majority of them have written the console off as an underpowered gimmick that is incapable of making any good games.

On the contrary, I think it already has good games, and will have more of them. However, I don't think they are the types of games that will appeal to the hardcore. Mario Galaxy isn't going to sell the Wii to your average college student anymore than Gears of War 2 is going to sell the Xbox 360 to your Mom. There are a few games that bridge that gap by being good games suitable for any audience (Metroid, Brawl, Galaxy, Zelda, No more Heroes), but then it comes back to the fact that most core gamers would prefer to play these games if they were made on an HD system with good online features.

That is the core of my message, btw: Nintendo needs to enhance the features of their console (technological power and online features) if they want to get hardcore gamers interested in their console. The ineptitude that makes this executive feel that showing Wario would have won gamers over to Nintendo's camp just shows how much they don't get us.

Of course, they aren't trying to get us. It would be really cool if they spent as much effort trying to get us as Microsoft is spending trying to get the casuals.

[KSmitty]

How did "No More Heroes" sell?
Suprisingly NMH has sold pretty well. I say suprisingly because NMH is a VERY niche game, it seems to have a longer tail than people in the industry gave it credit for.


I believed the metaphor I used was "like trying to pilot a straw with a jetpack". The Wii-mote is far from perfect, and now that it is winning the console war, I would think that we could talk about this honestly instead of people saying simply, "No, you're wrong". Do you believe that the pointer is easy to use or that it, as I said, has extremely sensitive control that can be tiresome to use.
I believe the pointer is easier to use than an analog stick. Pointing is faster and more accurate than moving your stick to whatever part of the screen you are trying to reach. Both methods approximate the position of the cursor. I have yet to play a game where the pointing was 'too sensitive'. The motion controls? I can see how you could say that, but not the pointer.


It was pretty good in Super Metroid too, and I can name a few others that aren't party games or very simple games with party mini-games providing the gameplay. When I said that the Wii's strength is single-console party games, did you not understand that? That statement doesn't imply in any way what you seem to be responding to. . . I'm not sure, but you seem to be responding to me as if I said the Nintendo Wii is completely incapable of delivering traditional games.
You more or less said that the Wii wasn't designed to deliver traditional games in your initial post. Either way the Wii does have the party game stigma attached to it. It seems that only people who own the system can see past it. You make a post on these boards about the Wii having nothing but party games you get a chorus of 'Hell Yeah!'. You make a post about the 360 having nothing but shooting games you get a chorus of 'Hell No!'.

What I said was that due to the poor hardware and poor online, the console will never truly be aimed at core audiences. Even if you create a game like Fatal Frame that may very well be improved by the controls (or may not, sometimes the Wii controls HURT games), I would prefer the experience on the Xbox 360 or the PS3 because I think that with better graphics it would be scarier. Plus, I would absolutely love a multiplayer Fatal Frame. You could do it so that there is still only the one little Japanese girl, but if you had a friend play multiplayer with you, he or she could play as a little boy ghost who can help out by luring the spirits away from you. He could slip through physical barriers and can lift light objects (like additional film). Meanwhile, you both have voice, so you can hear your friend screaming when something grabs his character (that would be hilarious).
And this is where the gaming audience is starting to diverge. Multiplayer vs single player. More and more games are focusing on multiplayer, sometimes to the detriment of the single player experience. I don't see adding multiplayer as enhancing the experience in Fatal Frame as a big part of that series is the isolation in the haunted location. Just you and the spirits. I think adding a friend in there would actually make it less scary as you now have someone else 'in it' with you and that is more comforting than being all alone.

There are games on the PS2, Xbox, and Gamecube that are really fun, and the Wii has fun games, and will have more. However, if Gears of War 2 had a much lower res version that came out for the original Xbox that had online, but without voice and cross-game matching and friend's lists, do you think that it would be popular with core audiences? How about if Microsoft licensed rights to use the Wii-mote technology for the original Xbox and then made a low res version with poor online features but with the Wii-mote?
You are letting your preferences color your view. By the logic of lesser tech = lesser experience, Nintendo could release the 'Woot' tomorrow with better graphics, processor, HDD, HD and a better online system and the 360 would then be an inferior console, incapable of making games as good as the new Woot. That would mean that all those games in the 360 Fall 2008 lineup that people are excited about would be last gen games on an underpowered system.

Gameplay is the most important thing, and as long as Nintendo keeps innovating so that they use the Wii-mote to good effect then traditional games will be good on the Wii. . . but they still won't look good enough or have the online features to which hardcore audiences are drawn.

I realize that a LOT of the posters read a post and then assume that the poster must also think X or Y. I'm making very specific and qualified statements on purpose.
As I said before they already lost them and nothing they do is going to bring them back if weren't already intrested in being there.

edit: I've gotta go, but I will reply to your responses later bean19

[bean19]

Suprisingly NMH has sold pretty well.
Only if you lower your expectations of sales to what one might expect for a 3rd party game not aimed at casuals on the Nintendo Wii. My point is that those expectations are low.

I believe the pointer is easier to use than an analog stick.
I think that it is incredibly over-sensitive and can be frustrating to use for long periods of time, but I think the "motion controls" work fine - so we have exact opposite points of view on this (You do own a Wii right? You've played one extensively?). The motion controls are almost all replacements for button presses (except for the ones that measure tilt actively like the ones used in the "balance the broom on your hand" type mini-games). It may not be easy for the controller to tell that you are swinging at a tennis ball in a way that will cause top spin, but then if you want Mom to be able to play all the game needs to know and should know is if it is a forehand or backhand swing. Even I, a tennis player and a gamer, would be annoyed if they tried to approximate it more. . . for a variety of reasons, but the biggest being that a true swing is not arm independent. . . to get a correct swing you must swing with your entire body. Thus a game that only measures the arm motion of the swing, but does so minutely, would provide very poor and frustrating gameplay. It would be the same with fencing, pool, or any other number of simulations.

You more or less said that the Wii wasn't designed to deliver traditional games in your initial post.
No, I didn't. If that's what you assumed or misinterpreted, there are several posts where I've explained further. Don't insist that your assumptions are correct so you can keep drumming your head up against them. Move on with the conversation or talk to yourself. I'm not going to defend points I never made or keep restating my opinion until I find the magical set of words that allows you to believe that the specific and qualified statements are intentional.

Either way the Wii does have the party game stigma attached to it. It seems that only people who own the system can see past it. You make a post on these boards about the Wii having nothing but party games
Again, this is not what I said, and there are already several posts that explain my opinion of the Wii's software library (a very grey opinion that is nothing like the one you seem to think I have despite evidence to the contrary already in this thread).

And this is where the gaming audience is starting to diverge. Multiplayer vs single player. More and more games are focusing on multiplayer, sometimes to the detriment of the single player experience. I don't see adding multiplayer as enhancing the experience in Fatal Frame as a big part of that series is the isolation in the haunted location. Just you and the spirits. I think adding a friend in there would actually make it less scary as you now have someone else 'in it' with you and that is more comforting than being all alone.
As far as the scariness, it could go either way. If you read my game design idea for it, then you know there are some fun things you could do with it.


By the logic of lesser tech = lesser experience, Nintendo could release the 'Woot' tomorrow with better graphics, processor, HDD, HD and a better online system and the 360 would then be an inferior console, incapable of making games as good as the new Woot. That would mean that all those games in the 360 Fall 2008 lineup that people are excited about would be last gen games on an underpowered system.
Absolutely. If the 'Woot' could deliver better technology (not just graphics but it also had as much or more AI, physics, etc. as the Xbox 360 and PS3) and great online features, I would prefer to play it on the 'Woot' (fun fake name by the way, I've been using Wii Advance). Plus, I'd absolutely by the Xbox 360's fall lineup on the 'Woot' if it was also available on the 'Woot'. If it wasn't available, then I'd play them on an Xbox 360, just like I play the good Wii games on a friend's Wii and will buy my own Wii when there are enough good games that I want to get another one (I have always liked Nintendo and had a launch Wii that I sold because I ran out of games to play).

[Variable Gear]

I'm not sure of bean's argument.
Neither am I. He enjoys making a point early on and then running from it while ignoring those that call him out for changing his tune. It makes it tougher to tell what the fuck he means by anything he happens to type. :rolleyes:

[bean19]

Neither am I. He enjoys making a point early on and then running from it. . .

Really? I make such a fuss about you guys making assumptions, and I even point out your assumptions specifically, and now you just want to retreat from the discussion rather than engaging it? I went to all the trouble of pointing out your fallacies in order to take the obscurity AWAY from the argument and to clear your mind of assumptions so that we COULD talk about this. . .

I'll repeat it once again, though I don't think you are so dim that you actually need me to repeat it, and feigned stupidity really annoys me. Why would you think I'd believe you are so stupid that you could have missed the main point? Anyway. . . here it is again. (I'm copying and pasting one of the times I've said it to save time).

"Nintendo needs to enhance the features of their console (technological power and online features) if they want to get hardcore gamers interested in their console. The ineptitude that makes this executive feel that showing Wario would have won gamers over to Nintendo's camp just shows how much they don't get us.

Of course, they aren't trying to get us. It would be really cool if they spent as much effort trying to get us as Microsoft is spending trying to get the casuals."

I've also supported those statements against various attacks (some of which were actually about this and not about something imagined in the poster's head), so please read those too if you really want to have a discussion. If you just want to flame, again, I ask that you send it in a PM, because flames might scare off thoughtful, intelligent posters and this is a discussion I would like to enjoy.

[KSmitty]

Only if you lower your expectations of sales to what one might expect for a 3rd party game not aimed at casuals on the Nintendo Wii. My point is that those expectations are low.
You excluded the first part of my statement. That NMH is a NICHE title. It has references to anime, 8 bit gaming, luchadores, ultra violence, not to mention cheesy dialogue and a super convoluted and cheesy plot. Its not the type of game that is going to sell millions regardless. And if I remember correctly it is the best selling Suda 51 game so far.

I think that it is incredibly over-sensitive and can be frustrating to use for long periods of time, but I think the "motion controls" work fine - so we have exact opposite points of view on this (You do own a Wii right? You've played one extensively?). The motion controls are almost all replacements for button presses (except for the ones that measure tilt actively like the ones used in the "balance the broom on your hand" type mini-games). It may not be easy for the controller to tell that you are swinging at a tennis ball in a way that will cause top spin, but then if you want Mom to be able to play all the game needs to know and should know is if it is a forehand or backhand swing. Even I, a tennis player and a gamer, would be annoyed if they tried to approximate it more. . . for a variety of reasons, but the biggest being that a true swing is not arm independent. . . to get a correct swing you must swing with your entire body. Thus a game that only measures the arm motion of the swing, but does so minutely, would provide very poor and frustrating gameplay. It would be the same with fencing, pool, or any other number of simulations.
Yes I have spent extensive time with the pointer function of the remote. I have 3 'light gun' games, several Wii Ware titles and often use Opera to browse the web, all use the pointer. The Wii remote as it currently stands does not accurately mirror the user movements 1:1. But I have yet to play a game where I was frustrated b the motion controls. Would it be nice if the controls were 1:1? Yes it would. And I guess Nintendo agreed because they are releasing their 1:1 adapter. Is it late to the party? Hell yes it is, but at least it shows that Nintendo is putting some effort into improving the gameplay on their system and not just sitting on their piles of money using a burning DS to light their cigars.


No, I didn't. If that's what you assumed or misinterpreted, there are several posts where I've explained further. Don't insist that your assumptions are correct so you can keep drumming your head up against them. Move on with the conversation or talk to yourself. I'm not going to defend points I never made or keep restating my opinion until I find the magical set of words that allows you to believe that the specific and qualified statements are intentional.
Your exact quote was:
Plus, your system will never appeal to core gamers as much because it is designed for short, casual games that make use of the Wii-mote rather than skill-based, narrative-driven core games. Plus, even if you made one of these games, the lack of decent online features means that core players will STILL prefer the Xbox 360 and PS3.
You may not have explicitly stated that skill based narrative games cannot be made on the system, but it was most definetely implied. If the implication was not there you wouldn't have had several people come into the thread and take it that way AND you wouldn't have had to later clarify/qualify your statement. But why stop with that, your next post illustrates my point perfectly.

Again, this is not what I said, and there are already several posts that explain my opinion of the Wii's software library (a very grey opinion that is nothing like the one you seem to think I have despite evidence to the contrary already in this thread).
I never once explicitly stated that you were one of the people that called the Wii a party system. I made a general statement about a stigma that is attached to the system and you assumed I was talking about you. So while I was not talking about you directly it could be interpreted that I was lumping you into the group of 'those people'.


Absolutely. If the 'Woot' could deliver better technology (not just graphics but it also had as much or more AI, physics, etc. as the Xbox 360 and PS3) and great online features, I would prefer to play it on the 'Woot' (fun fake name by the way, I've been using Wii Advance). Plus, I'd absolutely by the Xbox 360's fall lineup on the 'Woot' if it was also available on the 'Woot'. If it wasn't available, then I'd play them on an Xbox 360, just like I play the good Wii games on a friend's Wii and will buy my own Wii when there are enough good games that I want to get another one (I have always liked Nintendo and had a launch Wii that I sold because I ran out of games to play).
Then Kudos to you for giving the Wii a chance that a lot of people did not.

And the Woot is not just some imaginary system. Its called a gaming PC. It has a better proccessor, more RAM, customizeable HDD, higher res, more in-depth/better control scheme, better online support/community than any console. So why don't more PC gamers come into 360 threads and inform all those misguided suckers playing 360 that they are gaming on an inferior system? Maybe crack on the Live users for their gimped multiplayer feature set? Talk about the level of gaming they are missing from playing on old tech?

[bean19]

And the Woot is not just some imaginary system. Its called a gaming PC. It has a better proccessor, more RAM, customizeable HDD, higher res, more in-depth/better control scheme, better online support/community than any console. So why don't more PC gamers come into 360 threads and inform all those misguided suckers playing 360 that they are gaming on an inferior system?

Well the short answer to your question is that those Xbox 360 threads aren't about how Microsoft is apologizing for continuously failing to meet the expectations of gamers, whereas this thread is about Nintendo doing that and then insultingly and bizarrely thinking that they wouldn't have fucked up if they'd just shown us Wario.

The longer answer would explain to you all the differences between PC gaming and console gaming that you already know already, but they are not the point. You already know that stuff, and you probably knew that the reason people bitch about Nintendo being a disappointment to gamers in a thread about Nintendo apologizing for being a disappointment to gamers is because Nintendo has been such a disappointment to gamers.

[Xerxes]

Neither am I. He enjoys making a point early on and then running from it while ignoring those that call him out for changing his tune. It makes it tougher to tell what the fuck he means by anything he happens to type. :rolleyes:

Is he for or against the wii? I seen something about the wii being over sensitive. Really?!

[bean19]

Is he for or against the wii? I seen something about the wii being over sensitive. Really?!

I don't get the joke. . . is it funny that you are pretending to be dumb or that you are pretending that this is a discussion that is black-and-white?

Very clearly, in many posts, I have stated that I think that this lady is completely out of touch with what is required to make gamers happy with the Wii. What is so difficult to understand about that? My first post may not have been clear enough, but then I replied to Goronmon. What excuse do the rest of you give?

This is a forum with smart posters. Why do you guys retreat to this same "we're just idiots" defense when someone finally forces you to engage them about the topic they are discussing instead of the topic you made up or imagined?