Allard Gets Defensive

[bapenguin]

Edge-Online (http://www.edge-online.co.uk/archives/2005/10/microsoft_respo.php) has some comments from J. Allard of Microsoft regarding the non standard hard drive issue.

It was put to Allard that Saint’s Row developer Volition had expressed difficulty in realising some of its ambitions for the project since the removal of the hard drive from the equation (citing issues with streaming and caching), to which he responded: “Sometimes doing the right thing means doing the hard thing. Are there developers who are disappointed? Yeah, sure. I wish there was a hard drive and I wish there were four terabytes of memory; I wish it were free to consumers and I wish we could put one in every TV set – there are a lot of wishes that I have but at the end of the day we’re trying to run a business, and you have to make those trade-offs. It was a difficult one – I was the biggest fan of the hard drive and its potential, but the problem is that we sold 22million Xbox consoles and 5million, maybe 10million just don’t care about it. But we paid for it. So who pays for it this time? We can either ask the gamer to pay for it, pay for it ourselves, or prove that there’s enough value in it and have the gamer say ‘I want to pay for it’ – I think that’s the right model.
He's walking a fine line between cocky and correct. Sounds like he's getting very defensive on the subject...almost flustered.

[Heretic Machine]

Oh yeah, that's why they are making the core system nearly non-existent. For the consumer. It exists just enough for them to claim to sell a system at $300, while also completly fucking the usefulness of the hard-drive.

What a dick.

[fitbabits]

He does have a point, though, albeit defensively put. If the PS3 releases with a hard drive as standard, I predict that Microsoft will kill of the non-hard drive SKU and push the premium pack.

[Heretic Machine]

The problem here is that in many cases a game can go only two directions, requiring the hard-drive or not. If it doesn't, then we get gameplay that has been taken down a peg of what it could of been. If it does, then part of the customer base gets screwed, and Microsoft is requiring that this doesn't happen. So basically, the hard-drive is a $100 memory card that can play music.

...Yay. Couldn't I of just hooked up my fucking iPod to your console, douche bag?

[ezzkmo]

He does have a point, though, albeit defensively put. If the PS3 releases with a hard drive as standard, I predict that Microsoft will kill of the non-hard drive SKU and push the premium pack.

ps3 aside...it'll happen anyway. give it a year. look at the original xbox controller. after enough bitching it went away too.

[Heretic Machine]

Ya, but that doesn't matter. Even if they only sell core systems at launch, they are still out there, and they still require that those consoles be supported. That's the problem, the market is already split and that can't be reversed. Unless they start sending out free hard-drives to the core users of course. Even if they switched their policy and said that games could start requiring the hard-drive, they'd just be fucking the minority of consumers instead of everyone. That's still not cool, this whole situation is one big fuck-up by Microsoft.

[Murmillo]

I'll say I'm shocked that he's given a lower number of harddrives 'not' used. I can swear he said more were not used before. If only 5-10 millions out of 22 wern't used, thats 45%-22%. But then again, when that 45%-22% accounts for 75ish% of the loss of making/selling an xbox it of course makes sense on why it was cut as a full time feature.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Perigon has a potty mouth.
He also has a valid point though. The HD is now as good as an accesory. Since the 360 couldn't stream the environment from the dvd fast enough to keep the environment consistent, Volition claims to have eliminated flying vehicles from their game. I think their time constraints had more to do about that. However, it is another dev stating that the HD missing as a standard piece of equipment has made them eliminatwe features.

Although this is a dead horse and has been discussed a million times, the HD not being standard has hurt a game (more than one, but that isn't the point). This nullifies the usefulness of the HD and just goes to strengthen the fact that developers develop their games to the base system...the largest possible target.

Kind of sucks.

[Zeal]

Microsoft doesn't realize how bad they're fucking themselves in the ass with this. As a matter of fact, I'm sick of hearing ANYONE try to defend Microsoft's decision to remove the harddrive. The reality is that it's bad either way you look at it; there's no positives to highlight. Period.

Developers either develop their games around the harddrive or they don't. It's that simple. Asking developers to exclude the harddrive limits their technical possibilities with the hardware. Anyone who says it doesn't is wrong and I will not argue wth them.

I expect Microsoft to realize the error of their ways and kill off the harddriveless system soon enough, though. It seems they've already realized their fuckup, and that will only become more apparent once the 'core' systems sell nothing at launch.

Soon enough, I expect Microsoft to tell developers to create games "with the harddrive in mind".

Two SKUs = bad
No harddrive = bad

Splits the market and developers.

[Wonka]

Frankly, I think that he is just tired of being asked about this decision. I know that I am a little bit tired of hearing about it...

Would I prefer that MS buy me a HDD for my console? Why of course I would! But I don't have quite a strong enough sense of "entitlement" to demand it of them...

If I were him I would probably have done the exact same thing. You can spin it however you like, but it's still just a business decision. These guys are just trying to sell as many consoles as they can, and since they are launching 1st, they have to be careful to keep things flexible. There is no reason to get angry about it. Right now most of the pre-orders are for the premium version of the console. Gee it's almost as if most of the people ordering Xbox 360's were hardcore gamers huh?

As for using your iPod as a memory stick. That might have worked. But then what happens when Apple decides to update their iPod and it screws up all the save games?

[Draft]

Hahah, Perigon is so angry.

[Heretic Machine]

Would I prefer that MS buy me a HDD for my console? Why of course I would! But I don't have quite a strong enough sense of "entitlement" to demand it of them...

THEY COULD OF SOLD THE FUCKER FOR $400 AND EVERYONE WOULD OF BOUGHT IT! They aren't making enough core systems to actually fill this so-called demand that he is talking about. Don't you get that?

There is no reason to get angry about it.

Oh no, there is absolutely no reason to get angry about a good console being fumbled because of a misguided marketing department. No reason at all.

Right now most of the pre-orders are for the premium version of the console. Gee it's almost as if most of the people ordering Xbox 360's were hardcore gamers huh?


It's almost as if that was what they were pushing on everyone!

As for using your iPod as a memory stick. That might have worked. But then what happens when Apple decides to update their iPod and it screws up all the save games?

It's called sarcasm. Wiki it.

[Xerxes]

Volition is a ass hat. Tons of games are being released with flight. If GTA: SA could do it why can't his game; the hardware boost alone. And I'm not thinking about the hard drive as splitting the market. It's almost like everyone is getting a Core system. The $100 box sounds more like a none retarded gamestop or eb bundle.

[The Iron Weasel]

I'll get the thing one way or another, i'd like to see the hard drive used though.

[Zeal]

Because of Microsoft's marketing decision, the hardware's technical possibilities have been neuteured at birth.

The 360 could have been sold with a built-in HDD for $400 and everyone would have bought it.

I actually hope Sony shocks the hell out of Microsoft and makes the harddrive standard. It would kill the HDless system.

[Heretic Machine]

Volition is a ass hat. Tons of games are being released with flight. If GTA: SA could do it why can't his game; the hardware boost alone. And I'm not thinking about the hard drive as splitting the market. It's almost like everyone is getting a Core system. The $100 box sounds more like a none retarded gamestop or eb bundle.


Because their game is the size of GTA: SA, and nearly every building can be walked into without a loading screen. Come back when you have the slightest clue about what you're reading.

[ChaosDent]

Allard is hiding this marketing-based decision behind a false choice and calling it pro-consumer.

...I’m like: what consumer electronics business in the world has three manufacturers, three brands that each make one thing that doesn’t change for seven years? The answer is none. You go and buy a TV, I guess it’s confusing but I like the choice. You buy a cellphone, it could be confusing but I like the choice. Consumers like choice, and it’s a very pro-consumer move on our part...

I can buy a TV, one of hundreds from dozens of manufacturers, ranging from about $75 to $7000 and up, and the broadcast standard hasn't changed in nearly 40 years. With cell phones, I have a choice of 6 or 7 proprietary service vendors who will universally give me a no-frills phone with a calling plan or sell me a $600+ PDA phone, each tailored to their own network. I can buy an iPod brand music player from $100 to $400 with an incredible variety of form factors, storage capacities and optional features. Allard is comparing his identical models with- or without an optional add-on to this level of consumer choice!

A good expression of consumer choice in the video game market is the 5 unique devices Nintendo offers for their GBA brand, 4 of which are still active on the market. An even better expression of consumer choice in the video game market is between the Xbox, Playstation and Nintendo branded consoles sitting next to each other on store shelves. This barely registers along with the multiple PSP SKUs released in Japan, for similar marketing reasons.

[Murmillo]

Man, I wonder how many people here really understand what it takes to run a business or are just to busy living their parents basement to busy and clueless to pull their own heads out of their ass.

Seriously, it sucks. But you can only give away so much free stuff in a business. Microsoft may have a billion dollars to throw down taking over the world, but if they don't turn a profit at some point, that billion dollars will dry up reeeeaaaall quickly. Not to mention the fact of all the investors who look at Microsoft to earn a profit.

How would you like it if you put money into a savings account at your bank. But instead of earning money, your bank was busy spending all that money into freebies in trying to get other customers, never leaving enough money left over to pay you back, in fact they are spending so much money, they are even taking money out of your account and giving it to OTHER people. At what point do you call up the bank and tell them you want your money back, all of it??
-This is what has happened with Microsoft and the xbox. They made a huge loss to try to bring in new customers (over from Sony and new gamers over all).

You can yell rant and scream at Microsoft for pulling out the HD and screwing over a few developers, but why don't you yell at all the other fucking developers who said fuck you Microsoft, we don't need to use your harddrive. We just want to port over game X and earn money off of your system? The developers for 4 long years have told Mircosoft what they think of the harddrive, and for the most part the majority of them have said "Suck it Microsoft".

[Xerxes]

Everyone would of bought the $400 version. Are we sure about that?
And I can't wait until saint's row comes out. Next thing, everyone's gonna blame it's cloned crappiness on MS for not including a HD. It's like are we watching the trailers and screen cause I'm not impressed at all.

[EternalGamer]

Volition should have just kept the flying vehicles in and whenever you entered one have an ugly ass loading screen pop up which read "This loading screen is brought to you compliments the Two Sku MS Marketing Team."

Dan

[Magnanimous Gnome]

How would you like it if you put money into a savings account at your bank. But instead of earning money, your bank was busy spending all that money into freebies in trying to get other customers, never leaving enough money left over to pay you back, in fact they are spending so much money, they are even taking money out of your account and giving it to OTHER people. At what point do you call up the bank and tell them you want your money back, all of it??
-This is what has happened with Microsoft and the xbox. They made a huge loss to try to bring in new customers (over from Sony and new gamers over all).


Um, that's more or less what banks do, heavily simplified and a little off of course. They take your money and use it to get other customers and make themselves more money. ;)



I seriously do not understand why anyone is apoligizing for Microsoft. The HD thing is a big screwup. Why apoligize for the mistakes of a large corporation?

[Zeal]

So who pays for it this time? We can either ask the gamer to pay for it, pay for it ourselves, or prove that there’s enough value in it and have the gamer say ‘I want to pay for it’ – I think that’s the right model.

This part is rather amusing to me. He conveniently forgets to mention that even though consumers will buy the HDD, there will be no games designed to take advantage of it.

In other words, you just bought yourself a gigantic memory card. Congratulations.

Also, Microsoft has already told developers they cannot make games with the harddrive in mind, so it's pointless to argue.

The reality is this: Microsoft no longer has developers OR consumers in mind, they're concerned with money. They refuse to lose profit this time around.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Volition should have just kept the flying vehicles in and whenever you entered one have an ugly ass loading screen pop up which read "This loading screen is brought to you compliments the Two Sku MS Marketing Team."

Dan


Hell, I'd buy the game if they did that, and I won't even have a 360 to play it on. :D

[lexvc]

I'm amazed by the lack of technical knowledge being exhibited on this thread. It's been said countless times, by several different high-ranking officials - both from Microsoft and independent developers: the hard-drive is bonus, it's simply not required for the games. If you have the hard-drive, it allows for more online features, and provides for faster loading times - that's it. If the hard drive is used for any other features, then those uses simply get dumped to the RAM (of which the Xbox 360 has 512 MB available, 256 for general processing), where it takes care of them just as easily.

The two SKU sales model isn't simply to save money - it's common sense. If people aren't going to use the hard drive, then don't make them buy it. Think of it this way. How would you feel if every Xbox 360 that Microsoft shipped on launch day had to be bought with a copy of Kameo and Perfect Dark Zero - for a price of $500? You would be buying two games that you may or may not want, with no choice in the matter (assuming you want the console). Packaging the hard drive is the same situation. For casual gamers, the hard drive isn't a necessity, so there is no reason for them to pay $100 extra dollars for it.

Admittedly, the sales model is flawed in some ways; for example, it alienates casual gamers interested in online gaming. To recieve the full benefit of the Xbox 360 on Live!, the hard drive is required - but if you plan on using you're Xbox 360 that much, I'd think $400 wouldn't be a terrible stretch anyway. The premium package is well worth the money, so any complaints of a "high price point" are simply unwarranted.

Perigon, I think you need to chill - and think a little bit about the argument you're trying to win. Because you've already lost. After all - do you think Microsoft cares that you don't like it? They've already announced it, this is the way it's going to be, and if you don't like it then wait a year for the PS3 while the rest of us enjoy our next-generation games such as Oblivion, PGR3, PDZ, CoD2, DOA4, etc. on our Xbox 360's.

P.S. Another simple piece of evidence supporting my argument - look at the developers supporting the Xbox 360. Tecmo, iD, Bethesda, Bizarre, BioWare, etc. Those developers only go for the best hardware - if they felt that the hard drive was going to cause problems, then they wouldn't be developing exclusive games for Microsoft (Haven't you heard? None of their games [none announced so far, anyway] will be on Sony's console).

[Zeal]

I'm amazed by the lack of technical knowledge being exhibited on this thread. It's been said countless times, by several different high-ranking officials - both from Microsoft and independent developers: the hard-drive is bonus, it's simply not required for the games. If you have the hard-drive, it allows for more online features, and provides for faster loading times - that's it. If the hard drive is used for any other features, then those uses simply get dumped to the RAM (of which the Xbox 360 has 512 MB available, 256 for general processing), where it takes care of them just as easily.

The two SKU sales model isn't simply to save money - it's common sense. If people aren't going to use the hard drive, then don't make them buy it. Think of it this way. How would you feel if every Xbox 360 that Microsoft shipped on launch day had to be bought with a copy of Kameo and Perfect Dark Zero - for a price of $500? You would be buying two games that you may or may not want, with no choice in the matter (assuming you want the console). Packaging the hard drive is the same situation. For casual gamers, the hard drive isn't a necessity, so there is no reason for them to pay $100 extra dollars for it.

Admittedly, the sales model is flawed in some ways; for example, it alienates casual gamers interested in online gaming. To recieve the full benefit of the Xbox 360 on Live!, the hard drive is required - but if you plan on using you're Xbox 360 that much, I'd think $400 wouldn't be a terrible stretch anyway. The premium package is well worth the money, so any complaints of a "high price point" are simply unwarranted.

Perigon, I think you need to chill - and think a little bit about the argument you're trying to win. Because you've already lost. After all - do you think Microsoft cares that you don't like it? They've already announced it, this is the way it's going to be, and if you don't like it then wait a year for the PS3 while the rest of us enjoy our next-generation games such as Oblivion, PGR3, PDZ, CoD2, DOA4, etc. on our Xbox 360's.

P.S. Another simple piece of evidence supporting my argument - look at the developers supporting the Xbox 360. Tecmo, iD, Bethesda, Bizarre, BioWare, etc. Those developers only go for the best hardware - if they felt that the hard drive was going to cause problems, then they wouldn't be developing exclusive games for Microsoft (Haven't you heard? None of their games [none announced so far, anyway] will be on Sony's console).


Nice Microsoft plant.

[A-Team]

How would you like it if you put money into a savings account at your bank. But instead of earning money, your bank was busy spending all that money into freebies in trying to get other customers, never leaving enough money left over to pay you back, in fact they are spending so much money, they are even taking money out of your account and giving it to OTHER people. At what point do you call up the bank and tell them you want your money back, all of it??
Not to be critical, but no bank in the United States would do that. Every bank in the U.S. must keep a percentage of the money deposited by its customers on hand at any given time, which differs from bank to bank. That said, if a bank gives away too much cash, it must borrow money from the Federal Reserve at a higher interest rate than that in which they charge the customer, thus sacraficing profits and pissing off their investors.

If a bank were to give away a bunch of free stuff using its own money to the same extreme that Microsoft "gave away" current-gen Xbox units and lost $4 billion, then we have a lot less banks and a lot more Wal-Marts - and we definitely need more Wal-Marts.

P.S. Another simple piece of evidence supporting my argument - look at the developers supporting the Xbox 360. Tecmo, iD, Bethesda, Bizarre, BioWare, etc. Those developers only go for the best hardware - if they felt that the hard drive was going to cause problems, then they wouldn't be developing exclusive games for Microsoft (Haven't you heard? None of their games [none announced so far, anyway] will be on Sony's console).
That's a very poor assumption on your part. I need not bother reading the rest of what you wrote because your conclusion clearly indicates that your knowledge on business is limited. These companies that you have suggested may have taken the Xbox 360's hardware specifications into consideration when deciding whether or not to develop for the platform, but it is very unlikely that they weighed their decision to produce that heavily on the specs alone.

Why? Because it is not the hardware specs they are concerned with, but rather the potential for X number of consumers to purchase systems. I can *guarantee* you that these companies are more concerned with demographic data and the such than specifications, and I would like to see anyone try to argue that after their MTV advertising campaign.

[lexvc]

Nice Microsoft plant.
Pardon me?

[Heretic Machine]

Look fanbois, you can only have it one of two ways. Either the majority of systems are Core, the decision is justified, and the hard-drive is useless. Or the minority of systems are Core, the decision is a marketing ploy, and the hard-drive is still fucking useless.

Now, let's go with what we know. Allard has already said that less than 20% of the 360's they are making are going to be Core. We also know the overwhelming majority of pre-orders are for the Premium. So, the decision is obviously not justified, it is a marketing ploy, and they could of been just as (if not more) successful by elminiating the core system. Instead, they have split their user base into the high majority who own hard-drives, and the extreme minority who don't. As well, the developers have to cater to the extreme minority, at the expense of the overwhelming majority.

There is no defense for this. Anyone who says otherwise is a dumbass. In the famous words of Dennis Hopper, "Don't even try to grow a brain!"

[Murmillo]

Um, that's more or less what banks do, heavily simplified and a little off of course. They take your money and use it to get other customers and make themselves more money. ;)

I seriously do not understand why anyone is apoligizing for Microsoft. The HD thing is a big screwup. Why apoligize for the mistakes of a large corporation?

Well duh, but they also turn a profit. Every month I get about $40 from savings. I was putting out the example if the bank NEVER made a profit.

[EternalGamer]

Man, I wonder how many people here really understand what it takes to run a business or are just to busy living their parents basement to busy and clueless to pull their own heads out of their ass.

Seriously, it sucks. But you can only give away so much free stuff in a business. Microsoft may have a billion dollars to throw down taking over the world, but if they don't turn a profit at some point, that billion dollars will dry up reeeeaaaall quickly. Not to mention the fact of all the investors who look at Microsoft to earn a profit.

How would you like it if you put money into a savings account at your bank. But instead of earning money, your bank was busy spending all that money into freebies in trying to get other customers, never leaving enough money left over to pay you back, in fact they are spending so much money, they are even taking money out of your account and giving it to OTHER people. At what point do you call up the bank and tell them you want your money back, all of it??


No, it's more like if I put money in my bank and they tell me that if pay them a damn fee I will get me a better investment in the long term. But then they don't offer that fee to other people and there is not enough capital to gain any interest for me or anyone else who actually paid the damn fee, thus making the fee useless.

The fee in this case being the HARDDRIVE. Nobody was suggesting they give the harddrive for free, they were suggesting they have one higher priced SKU and everyone PAY for it's inclusion. The only justification for this is a sleazy quick cash grab by MS whereby they get to claim the system is only $299 to unknowing users and them fuck them up the ass for all the other extras later.. It's a short term marketing scheme that hurts both the core system buyers and the premium system buyers equally in the long term.

Dan

-

[eeje13]

Hey... Hey guys?

It's "would HAVE," not "would OF."

I realize that, when talking, we say what sounds like "would OF," but it's actually "would've" - a combination of "would" and "have." It's a conjunction, and School House Rock would be very displeased with y'all.

[Murmillo]

in which they charge the customer, thus sacraficing profits and pissing off their investors.

Same reason why Microsoft will never see a $100 xbox's and have currently lost $4 billion in to the making and development of the xbox.

[Zeal]

Perigon is right about this. Every single way you look at Microsoft's decision, there is no logical explanation. Developers must DEVELOP for the MINORITY at the expense of the MAJORITY.

Developers lose.
Consumers lose.

And who decides how well a system does? Consumers, not Microsoft.

[bapenguin]

This part is rather amusing to me. He conveniently forgets to mention that even though consumers will buy the HDD, there will be no games designed to take advantage of it.

In other words, you just bought yourself a gigantic memory card. Congratulations.


This is dead wrong. Hell we know LAUNCH titles will utilize the hard drive. Oblivion being one of them.

I said it before, yes it limits how many developers will utilize the hard drive. If 20% of the developers utilized it before, it may only be 10% now. It's still better than not offering the hard drive at all.

Do you really think MS didn't do extensive marketing research before they made this decision? I mean honestly, they could have just asked Zeal or Perigon, now their company is teh doomed!!!!11

[Murmillo]

No, it's more like if I put money in my bank and they tell me that if pay them a damn fee that they claim will get me a better investment in the long term. But then they don't offer that fee to other people and there is not enough capital to gain any interest for me or anyone else who actually paid the damn fee, thus making the fee useless.

The fee in this case being the HARDDRIVE. Nobody was suggesting they give the harddrive for free, they were suggesting they have one higher priced SKU and everyone PAY for it's inclusion. The only justification for this is a sleazy quick cash grab by MS whereby they get to claim the system is only $299 to unknowing users and them fuck them up the ass for all the other extras later.. It's a short term marketing scheme that hurts both the core system buyers and the premium system buyers equally in the long term.

Dan

-

Well, until you can prove that Microsoft is screwing users over, I stand by my case. Once Microsoft does, I'll join your side, but I'd rather like to think of Microsoft as an aggressive yet smart business who has to make many sometime or another.

[lexvc]

Look fanbois, you can only have it one of two ways. Either the majority of systems are Core, the decision is justified, and the hard-drive is useless. Or the minority of systems are Core, the decision is a marketing ploy, and the hard-drive is still fucking useless.

Now, let's go with what we know. Allard has already said that less than 20% of the 360's they are making are going to be Core. We also know the overwhelming majority of pre-orders are for the Premium. So, the decision is obviously not justified, it is a marketing ploy, and they could of been just as (if not more) successful by elminiating the core system. Instead, they have split their user base into the high majority who own hard-drives, and the extreme minority who don't. As well, the developers have to cater to the extreme minority, at the expense of the overwhelming majority.

There is no defense for this. Anyone who says otherwise is a dumbass. In the famous words of Dennis Hopper, "Don't even try to grow a brain!"

You're argument lacks some clarity. So you're saying that the hard drive is useless now? Just because some developers might not utilize it (instead opting to use the faster, larger RAM), it's useless? You're forgetting the fact that you can:
Save games
Download games, trailers, demos, etc.
Copy music
Play Xbox games
etc.


The hard drive is well-worth the money, but if you're not planning on using those features, then simply buy the Core System and enjoy you're next-generation gaming there.

Honestly Perigon, what are you bitching about?

[Zeal]

This is dead wrong. Hell we know LAUNCH titles will utilize the hard drive. Oblivion being one of them.

I said it before, yes it limits how many developers will utilize the hard drive. If 20% of the developers utilized it before, it may only be 10% now. It's still better than not offering the hard drive at all.

You just don't get it, do you? The games can OPTIONALLY SUPPORT the harddrive. This is completely different than developing your game to utilize it from the ground up.

Also, the amount of developers who actually utilize the harddrive is irrelevant. It's the simple fact that they aren't given the choice to.

Microsoft is saying "If you want to use the harddrive, do it, but you better make sure your game works without it."

This is NOT the same thing. Developers MUST develop their games for two different markets, now. They don't have a choice.

Developers lose.
Consumers lose.

Logically, there is not a single way to spin this for the better. If there was, I would have already done it by now.

[Heretic Machine]

I'm amazed by the lack of technical knowledge being exhibited on this thread. It's been said countless times, by several different high-ranking officials - both from Microsoft and independent developers

And we have at least one indipendant developing telling us that it's bullshit, and since the technical facts back them up, I'm going to go with them.

If people aren't going to use the hard drive, then don't make them buy it. [/qoute]

Well I can't use the damn hard-drive if the games aren't made to take proper advantage of it.

[quote]Think of it this way. How would you feel if every Xbox 360 that Microsoft shipped on launch day had to be bought with a copy of Kameo and Perfect Dark Zero - for a price of $500?

How would you feel if I jammed my boot up your ass for making a dumb-ass comment like this, pretending that it is a valid argument?

Perigon, I think you need to chill - and think a little bit about the argument you're trying to win.

Sorry pal, I already won, logic was on my side.

Because you've already lost. After all - do you think Microsoft cares that you don't like it?

Who the hell let the Microsoft PR boy on the forums?

They've already announced it, this is the way it's going to be, and if you don't like it then wait a year for the PS3 while the rest of us enjoy our next-generation games such as Oblivion, PGR3, PDZ, CoD2, DOA4, etc. on our Xbox 360's.

Look at my sig, bitch. Besides that, I decided not to buy a 360 after E3, just for this reason. Lucky me, I get one for free.

P.S. Another simple piece of evidence supporting my argument - look at the developers supporting the Xbox 360. Tecmo, iD, Bethesda, Bizarre, BioWare, etc. Those developers only go for the best hardware

No, these people know that Microsoft coming out on top will put them at a greater advantage over what they'd get trying to work with Sony. So they shut up, and go along with whatever the big M says.

[Murmillo]

I believe Allard said for the 360's launch that 20% will be core systems. He said that could also change tomorrow. Maybe 4 years down the line we'll have 50/50 split. You don't know, I don't know, so quit pretending you know everything.

[bapenguin]

You just don't get it, do you? The games can OPTIONALLY SUPPORT the harddrive. This is completely different than developing your game to utilize it from the ground up.

Also, the amount of developers who actually utilize the harddrive is irrelevant. It's the simple fact that they aren't given the choice to.

Microsoft is saying "If you want to use the harddrive, do it, but you better make sure your game works without it."

This is NOT the same thing.

I understand that. But 2 things come to mind.

1) People are saying the hard drive is worthless. It's not. There's plenty of functionality to it. In fact, there's been 5 or 6 examples of the functionality of it. You and Perigon are giving one example of the hard drive limiting creativity.

2) Lets go back and look at the XBox. What games took advantage of the hard drive and did something that could not have been done without the hard drive? When the hard drive was standard, of the 400 or 500 XBox games out there...how many actually did something above and beyond caching a game or using custom soundtracks?

[EternalGamer]

He is bitching about the hardrive becoming USELESS for the one thing we all buy a damn Xbox360 for--to play games. Whatever else it does, the hardware I get when I buy a system should be able to be used for that purpose. That's what the hardware is there for--to run videogames. And yet... Microsoft forbids.

Dan

[lexvc]

The Xbox 360 has 512 MB of fucking RAM! Do you people just not understand this?! The only reason the hard drive was even utilized in the original Xbox is because it only had 64 MB of RAM - seeing as how the Xbox 360 has eight times this much I don't think developers will have a problem cacheing to the RAM to improve loading times. And for those of you technically incompetent forum addicts: the hard drive does NOT improve the graphics of a videogame - it speeds up loading times and marginally improves framerate speeds. Sometimes.

I wish that you people would grasp the idea of how the hard drive actually affects your games before you bitch about it.

[Kelegacy]

Whoa, someone get Allard a lolly. This guy's popped a cork.

The 360 should have come out in one flavor, we all know that. The way he went on his rant about wishes and not everyone gets what they wants bullshit is a little nutty. They could have solved all of their problems by just eliminating the core system. They aren't giving the console owners much of a choice, even though they like to spin it that way. A 40 dollar memory card (mandatory if you want to save a game on your core system) is not catering to another group of gamers; it's taking advantage of them. Eliminate the Core system and a lot of bad PR would vanish. You take away the risk of segregating your install base and please developers all at the same time. The system can still cost 400 bucks, simple as that.

I think trying to compete with Sony in the next round has made them anticipate and plan much more than they should. It's made them fumble all over the place. Allard getting defensive is both sad and entertaining to watch.

[Heretic Machine]

This is dead wrong. Hell we know LAUNCH titles will utilize the hard drive. Oblivion being one of them.

You can make a game that already runs on a PS2 work better on an XBOX. But you can't take a game on the XBOX which inherently requires the hard-drive work on the PS2. The game that requires the hard-drive has way more potential than the one that doesn't. That's what we have lost in this generation.

[Xerxes]

Everyone likes to point out MS selling out of $400 preorders. Parents come christmas ain't buying that and a game and all kinda shit extra.

[Heretic Machine]

The Xbox 360 has 512 MB of fucking RAM! Do you people just not understand this?! The only reason the hard drive was even utilized in the original Xbox is because it only had 64 MB of RAM - seeing as how the Xbox 360 has eight times this much I don't think developers will have a problem cacheing to the RAM to improve loading times. And for those of you technically incompetent forum addicts: the hard drive does NOT improve the graphics of a videogame - it speeds up loading times and marginally improves framerate speeds. Sometimes.

And if games were going to use the same level of graphics as last generation, you might have a point. But since textures are going to be higher res, there will be more polys, and the maps will be way larger with even more detail, you just come off sounding like a dumbass. Shut up, dumbass.

[A-Team]

Look fanbois, you can only have it one of two ways. Either the majority of systems are Core, the decision is justified, and the hard-drive is useless. Or the minority of systems are Core, the decision is a marketing ploy, and the hard-drive is still fucking useless.

Now, let's go with what we know. Allard has already said that less than 20% of the 360's they are making are going to be Core. We also know the overwhelming majority of pre-orders are for the Premium. So, the decision is obviously not justified, it is a marketing ploy, and they could of been just as (if not more) successful by elminiating the core system. Instead, they have split their user base into the high majority who own hard-drives, and the extreme minority who don't. As well, the developers have to cater to the extreme minority, at the expense of the overwhelming majority.

There is no defense for this. Anyone who says otherwise is a dumbass. In the famous words of Dennis Hopper, "Don't even try to grow a brain!"
What Perigon is saying is that Microsoft is purposely splitting the market at just the right point so that they can turn a quicker profit at launch. By limiting the availability of the Core package, they intimidate users into buying the Premium package because *the majority* of them are thinking that if they were already willing to spend $300, then why not spend an extra $100 to get the "better" package.

It is a marketing ploy regardless of what some of you may think. People in Microsoft's Marketing Department aren't getting paid to sit on their asses all day and do nothing you know.

Do I think it's wrong? No, this sort of thing happens all of the time. When Nintendo re-issued the GBA SP, do you honestly think that they issued just as many GBA SP's as they did Micros? Hell no.

However, given the vague details surrounding the use of current-gen titles on the Xbox, it is starting to make me wonder whether we were lied to back at E3 (and before even). I certainly hope that Microsoft does not cut users off from using current-gen titles on the Xbox 360 because there is still a lot of potential for up-and-coming current-gen games to do very well (Black for instance).

[Heretic Machine]

Everyone likes to point out MS selling out of $400 preorders. Parents come christmas ain't buying that and a game and all kinda shit extra.

They will when it's the only damn thing on the shelves.

[Ernst_Jager]

I have alot of respect for this man. People love to talk shit about him, but I think he does a good job. I would love to have the chance to talk to him about the future of gaming.

[Zeal]

I understand that. But 2 things come to mind.

1) People are saying the hard drive is worthless. It's not. There's plenty of functionality to it. In fact, there's been 5 or 6 examples of the functionality of it. You and Perigon are giving one example of the hard drive limiting creativity.

2) Lets go back and look at the XBox. What games took advantage of the hard drive and did something that could not have been done without the hard drive? When the hard drive was standard, of the 400 or 500 XBox games out there...how many actually did something above and beyond caching a game or using custom soundtracks?

1. Other than it being a gigantic memory card, could you give me an example?

2. HALO (arguably one of the most influential games in history) and the OTOGI series. These are just two quick examples of groundbreaking games that were designed from the ground up to utilize the harddrive. They cannot be played without it.

Now stop a moment and realize something. Games like these are NOT possible on 360. Why is this, you ask? Because they require a harddrive, and developers aren't allowed to create games that do.

Development has been sacrificed for marketing. Period.

[bapenguin]

You can make a game that already runs on a PS2 work better on an XBOX. But you can't take a game on the XBOX which inherently requires the hard-drive work on the PS2. The game that requires the hard-drive has way more potential than the one that doesn't. That's what we have lost in this generation.

If a developer, a console developer, really wants their game to have some feature....and that feature would require a hard drive....they can still do that.

[lexvc]

Good lord this thread is pointless.

I'm buying an Xbox 360 and I'm going to fucking enjoy it. I'll be playing PGR3 and you'll be too busy bitching about how not all the Core systems have a hard drive to open up your "free Xbox 360" and play it. This is just pathetic. I knew there was a reason I'd never posted on here before... I give up. It's not my job to convince you.

[ChaosDent]

Lexvc, for reasons I've detailed above, I think your argument (an extension of allards) is flawed. Since I've granted the optional status of the hard drive, I'd like to point out that there are more elegant ways of solving this particular problem. A large majority of the downloadable content problem can be solved with solid-state storage, and Microsoft is clearly ripping their customers off in this regard. $40 for 64MB of flash memory is totally unreasonable. In favor of a hard-drive, every system might have featured 512MB of solid state memory for DLC and save files, Microsoft could have followd Sony and Nintendo in using 'standard' flash memory cards (at a considerable discount from the traditional memory card prices). The HD could have been a complete option reserved for those who valued Xbox 1 compatibility, Media Center Extender features and custom soundtracks (also available with iPod support anyway, right?), they could even throw the HDTV and SP/DIF cables the package to round out the deal. I've laid out a solution that eliminates the multiple SKU issue, solves the DLC question and is generally much friendlier to consumers.

The reason they don't is purely marketing. With the low-end SKU they effectively create a market for their inflated price memory-unit that simply didn't exist with the Xbox, and they get to advertise the 360 at a much more attractive $300 price point. It may end up costing the consumer of the low-end SKU more in the long run buying cables and acessories than the cost of the high end SKU, so Microsoft is happy either way.

[Heretic Machine]

I have alot of respect for this man. People love to talk shit about him, but I think he does a good job. I would love to have the chance to talk to him about the future of gaming.

Me too. That's why they don't let people bring cudgels to E3.

[Major Dan]

We can either ask the gamer to pay for it, pay for it ourselves, or prove that there’s enough value in it and have the gamer say ‘I want to pay for it’ – I think that’s the right model.

This says it all, actually that whole quote is very telling. Essentially he is saying since not everyone used it last time we are not going to pay for it the consumer is. But I truly believe there will be games that require it before the next generation. And the first may be Halo 3. Yep, but hey maybe I am being too cynical. ;) But maybe I am right. It is rumored Halo 3 will be on two DVDs already, one for single player and one for multi. They will make the consumer buy a HD eventually and this time they will make money off the whole package. Gutsy move on their part. It sure is tearing us gamers up though. I know it will piss people off when it comes time to buy the HD, but maybe they will lower the price in the future of it too?

[Heretic Machine]

If a developer, a console developer, really wants their game to have some feature....and that feature would require a hard drive....they can still do that.


Not according to Microsoft.

[bapenguin]

1. Other than it being a gigantic memory card, could you give me an example?

2. HALO (arguably one of the most influential games in history) and the OTOGI series. These are just two quick examples of groundbreaking games that were designed from the ground up to utilize the harddrive. They cannot be played without it.

1) Caching. Downloads. Custom Soundtracks. Videos. Backwards compatibility. Plus now you get portability of ALL your saves.

2) What did Halo do with the hard drive? It cached to it. Other than that.....? I'm not sure what Otogi did, I believe with the destructable enviornments right? Now they'll have to keep that information in RAM instead.

[bapenguin]

Not according to Microsoft.

Final Fantasy XI

[Heretic Machine]

Final Fantasy XI


Not according to Microsoft.

[A-Team]

Final Fantasy XI
IGN says that Final Fantasy XI looks just as good as it did on the PC and the PS2, and they even said that it lagged. :mad:

Sorry, back to the topic at hand.

[Zeal]

1) Caching. Downloads. Custom Soundtracks. Videos. Backwards compatibility. Plus now you get portability of ALL your saves.

2) What did Halo do with the hard drive? It cached to it. Other than that.....? I'm not sure what Otogi did, I believe with the destructable enviornments right? Now they'll have to keep that information in RAM instead.

1. The features you have listed are as follows: space

2. These games cached and streamed content on the fly, so load times were non-existent. In doing so, the levels were gigantic, the enemies were numerous and it also allowed for dynamically changing worlds. Unfortunately, the 512MBs of RAM is nowhere near the memory offered by the HD and its streaming capabilities.

[bapenguin]

Not according to Microsoft.

Oh right...nevermind. That never happened. :rolleyes: G'night.

[bapenguin]

1. The features you have listed are as follows: space

2. These games cached and streamed content on the fly, so load times were non-existent. In doing so, the levels were gigantic, the enemies were numerous and it also allowed for dynamically changing worlds. Unfortunately, the 512MBs of RAM is nowhere near the memory offered by the HD and its streaming.

2) Developers can still cache...Oblivion is doing it. Loading times will be reduced. G'night.

[Xerxes]

They will when it's the only damn thing on the shelves.

In the words of Cosmic Wars creator Randall Curtis, "Pfft. Now I know you're crazy.

[Heretic Machine]

IGN says that Final Fantasy XI looks just as good as it did on the PC and the PS2, and they even said that it lagged.

Sorry, back to the topic at hand.


What I was trying to point out was that Microsoft will not certify games that require the hard-drive. If they do that, then they are lieing about their support of the core system. Obviously for games like FFXI to work properlly (patching) they'll need the hard-drive.

So either the game will be gimped, of Microsoft will be lieing. Take your pick.

[Zeal]

2) Developers can still cache...Oblivion is doing it. Loading times will be reduced. G'night.

2. Not on HDDless consoles.

[Heretic Machine]

In the words of Cosmic Wars creator Randall Curtis, "Pfft. Now I know you're crazy.

20% of 360's will be core. That is no where near the ratio they would need to fill any kind of "mother's buying consoles for kids" sort of demand. You guys are so keen to point out that the majority of gamers wouldn't want the hard-drive, then why are the majority of 360's coming with a hard-drive?

[Major Dan]

Volition should have just kept the flying vehicles in and whenever you entered one have an ugly ass loading screen pop up which read "This loading screen is brought to you compliments the Two Sku MS Marketing Team."

Dan
Thats fucking funny! HA HAHAHAHAHAH!! I love it.

[Maskatron]

There were at least a handful of games on the Xbox that got patches. I know bringing up patching console games opens a whole new can of worms, but you just know there are going to be games that need it.

[Zeal]

20% of 360's will be core. That is no where near the ratio they would need to fill any kind of "mother's buying consoles for kids" sort of demand. You guys are so keen to point out that the majority of gamers wouldn't want the hard-drive, then why are the majority of 360's coming with a hard-drive?

Because their arguments aren't logical and neither are Microsoft's. The statistics show the consoles with the harddrive are selling and the ones without it aren't. That means people want the harddrive.

That, based on the fact that Microsoft is making more units with the harddrive...lol.

This has nothing to do with "gaving the gamer choice! freedom!" or any of this other easy-to-see-through marketing bullshit. This is just straight-up cold, hard cash. Money.

The developers lose. The consumers lose and Microsoft wins. This is how the strategy was designed.

People who try to defend this marketing move...well, I call you idiots.

[A-Team]

What I was trying to point out was that Microsoft will not certify games that require the hard-drive. If they do that, then they are lieing about their support of the core system. Obviously for games like FFXI to work properlly (patching) they'll need the hard-drive.

So either the game will be gimped, of Microsoft will be lieing. Take your pick.
Microsoft will not allow games to be distributed if they are not certified and I can almost bet that regardless of whether a game requires the hard drive or not, it can and will pass certification. Final Fantasy XI and other MMOGs are going to pop up on the system regardless of anything that is said in this thread. I can also tell you that MMOGs like FFXI will require the hard drive unless they are ablet to cram patches onto memory cards, which isn't going to happen.

That said, I'm confused as to why you're saying that Microsoft is lying. Care to explain?

[Kelegacy]

Originally Posted by EternalGamer
Volition should have just kept the flying vehicles in and whenever you entered one have an ugly ass loading screen pop up which read "This loading screen is brought to you compliments the Two Sku MS Marketing Team."

Dan

Priceless. :)

I am a big fan of Volition, and I hope their next game turns out great. I can see their plight, though. A 2 SKU's means a potentially split fanbase, which means that they could lose revenue if the game doesnt play on a non-HDD machine, because not everyone will own the HDD.

We'll look back at this dual SKU bullshit in 5 years and say it didn't really matter at all, that the Core system was phased out and only thousands of early adopters of the Core system were totally fucked, or that Microsoft really fucked up and handed the crown to Sony or Nintendo.

[Heretic Machine]

That said, I'm confused as to why you're saying that Microsoft is lying. Care to explain?

Because they said, "We will not certify games that require the hard-drive."

[A-Team]

Because their arguments aren't logical and neither are Microsoft's. The statistics show the consoles with the harddrive are selling and the ones without it aren't. That means people want the harddrive.

That, based on the fact that Microsoft is making more units with the harddrive...lol.

This has nothing to do with "gaving the gamer choice! freedom!" or any of this other easy-to-see-through marketing bullshit. This is just straight-up cold, hard cash. Money.

The developers lose. The consumers lose and Microsoft wins. This is how the strategy was designed.

People who try to defend this marketing move...well, I call you idiots.
Then I'm an idiot, but the fact of the matter is that this is not a new business practice and has happened countless times before. The only reason this whole issue got blown up like a blimp was because Xbox owners got the *impression* that the next-gen Xbox would come standard with a HDD, but unfortunately for them, Microsoft and their investors want to see cold hard cash this time.

As to the developers losing, this is not the case at all and you are contradicting yourself by saying that they are. How you ask? Because you already know the truth: Microsoft is going to sell more units with HDDs than they are Core systems. This in turn means that every single game that comes out will be playable (HDD required or not) by the majority of all Xbox 360 purchasers.

Developers win, Microsoft wins, and consumers have never lost a battle in their lives. A consumers' purchasing power is his or her best weapon and, if the HDD issuse is as bad as people make it out to be, then why are people buying it?

[Maskatron]

Because they said, "We will not certify games that require the hard-drive."

"..unless it's name is FFXI." Except they didn't actually say that.

[A-Team]

Because they said, "We will not certify games that require the hard-drive."
I hate to ask you for it, but can you offer some kind of a link? <runs off>

"..unless it's name is FFXI." Except they didn't actually say that.
That's what I'm thinking. There seems to be a lot of "they said this" and "now it's like this" bullshit going on, and there has been since before E3 started.

Good lord this thread is pointless.

I'm buying an Xbox 360 and I'm going to fucking enjoy it. I'll be playing PGR3 and you'll be too busy bitching about how not all the Core systems have a hard drive to open up your "free Xbox 360" and play it. This is just pathetic. I knew there was a reason I'd never posted on here before... I give up. It's not my job to convince you.
No offense, but this thread isn't for you. Go check out PlanetXbox360 or some bullshit fansite if all you can say is "this thread is pointless". Not everyone in this thread is correct, but the arguments are legitimate.

[Heretic Machine]

Then I'm an idiot, but the fact of the matter is that this is not a new business practice and has happened countless times before. The only reason this whole issue got blown up like a blimp was because Xbox owners got the *impression* that the next-gen Xbox would come standard with a HDD, but unfortunately for them, Microsoft and their investors want to see cold hard cash this time.


The problem isn't that the hard-drive isn't standard. It's the fact that the core system isn't the primairy system, so we are basically forced to buy the premium system which comes with a now-useless hard-drive. They should of just took the hard-drive out altogether if it wasn't going to be standard.

Yes, I'd still be bitching, but not nearly as much.

As to the developers losing, this is not the case at all and you are contradicting yourself by saying that they are. How you ask? Because you already know the truth: Microsoft is going to sell more units with HDDs than they are Core systems. This in turn means that every single game that comes out will be playable (HDD required or not) by the majority of all Xbox 360 purchasers.

You can talk to Voilition about that.

Developers win, Microsoft wins, and consumers have never lost a battle in their lives. A consumers' purchasing power is his or her best weapon and, if the HDD issuse is as bad as people make it out to be, then why are people buying it?


Because the majority of consumers are dumbasses. These are the same people who voted Bush in for a second term.

[Heretic Machine]

I hate to ask you for it, but can you offer some kind of a link? <runs off>

I don't do that sort of thing. The quote was on this site, right on the front page sometime after E3. There is no way I'm going to look through every post about the 360 from that time until now. You pretty much have to take my word for it.

[A-Team]

Because the majority of consumers are dumbasses. These are the same people who voted Bush in for a second term.
Only bad things can come of this remark. :D

I don't do that sort of thing. The quote was on this site, right on the front page sometime after E3. There is no way I'm going to look through every post about the 360 from that time until now. You pretty much have to take my word for it.
Understood.



Page 9, here we come baby!

[rubek]

2. HALO (arguably one of the most influential games in history)

HAHAHAHA, yeah right.
REAL influential. Granted the Live component may have influenced the game industry somewhat, but really?
Designing a game where the player completes a whole bunch of boring, low poly corridors, with the occasional outdoor area, and then, get this, DOES THEM ALL AGAIN IN REVERSE!!! GOLD!

[Zeal]

Microsoft is going to sell more units with HDDs than they are Core systems.

Then why tell developers they cannot utilize the harddrive? Sure, use it, but the game can't require it.

Also, I don't see how you can say developers don't lose out in this respect, considering quite a few have already said they do. Take Gabe Newell's comments for example. Personal problems with him aside, the guy DOES know hardware and software development.

"Telling me I can't use the harddrive doesn't make my life any easier."

Even Allard is saying he wished they could have a harddrive. Do you know more than Microsoft? He admits that it was a business decision.

[carneconcarne]

i thnk perigon and zeal should have a fag-off to see who the biggest douche on evav is.

[Zeal]

i thnk perigon and zeal should have a fag-off to see who the biggest douche on evav is.

I think you should be banned for contributing nothing to the discussion. If you're gonna troll, at least do it with style.

[bean19]

The sky is not falling.

My prediction: X360 will sell more units because it has the Core system that is more affordably priced. Parents can buy it and some games. Little Johny has a happy Christmas.

Then Little Johny will play with the Core system and have a good time for a while, but will soon pester his Mom to get him the hard-drive because it is a much better device than the $40 memory card and only costs $60 more. Mom will get this for Little Johny's birthday or Little Johny will trade in 3 old games and his $40 memory card and then pay $20 bucks for it with the money grandma gave him.

Sales figures will show that 70% of users own a hard-drive 6 months after release of the system and analysts will say that the number will grow to 90% after a year. A killer app will be released that REQUIRES a hard-drive and they'll get a deal with Microsoft to have a hard-drive and game bundle that ony costs $100 (the same price of the hard-drive at launch).

Developers will then make their games with the hard-drive in mind. . . especially sequels that are hungry to top the feature set of their existing intellectual properties on the console.

Btw, we already had this discussion like a month ago. I've read the thread and I can't seem to see anything new.

[Heretic Machine]

Ok A-Team, since I had nothing better to do, I found the link.

Evil Avatar Post (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3681&highlight=hard-drive)

Basis of Topic (http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/1190/Xbox-360-Interview-Todd-Holmdahl/p2/)

From Todd Holmdahl, Corporate Vice President of the Xbox Product Group:
Xbox 360 games do not require the HDD or a Memory Unit...

[A-Team]

i thnk perigon and zeal should have a fag-off to see who the biggest douche on evav is.
Ok lexvc Jr., let me help you out:

http://www.planetxbox360.com
http://www.teamxbox.com
http://vnboards.ign.com/Game_Console_General_Board/b23035/

Go chill with your friends.

[Major Dan]

HAHAHAHA, yeah right.
REAL influential. Granted the Live component may have influenced the game industry somewhat, but really?
Designing a game where the player completes a whole bunch of boring, low poly corridors, with the occasional outdoor area, and then, get this, DOES THEM ALL AGAIN IN REVERSE!!! GOLD!


But wouldn't that be like real life? Fight into something and unless you get airlifted out you'd have to at least walk out, and if your enemy got in fresh troops you'd have to fight out. I don't understand this complaint, I hate hubs and back tracking but at least in Halo in made some sort of sense. Now I admit the library was tough and boring at times, but try it on Legendary and you don't have time to notice. :D

[Zeal]

People don't seem to understand that "optional harddrive" technically means no harddrive. They fail to understand the technical specifications of this argument, which is that developers are not given the choice to create their games with the HD in mind.

This is a no-win argument. This is just a simple fact being pointed out.

[A-Team]

Ok A-Team, since I had nothing better to do, I found the link.

Evil Avatar Post (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3681&highlight=hard-drive)

Basis of Topic (http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/1190/Xbox-360-Interview-Todd-Holmdahl/p2/)

From Todd Holmdahl, Corporate Vice President of the Xbox Product Group:
Gotcha. Just so everyone knows, this is the quote:

TeamXbox: Do Xbox 360 games require the detachable HDD to be plugged in for them to work?

Todd Holmdahl: Xbox 360 games do not require the HDD or a Memory Unit, but Xbox Live requires one or the other to save the gamers’ account information.
A case of "oops, I didn't contradict myself properly"?

[Major Dan]

The sky is not falling.

My prediction: X360 will sell more units because it has the Core system that is more affordably priced. Parents can buy it and some games. Little Johny has a happy Christmas.

Then Little Johny will play with the Core system and have a good time for a while, but will soon pester his Mom to get him the hard-drive because it is a much better device than the $40 memory card and only costs $60 more. Mom will get this for Little Johny's birthday or Little Johny will trade in 3 old games and his $40 memory card and then pay $20 bucks for it with the money grandma gave him.

Sales figures will show that 70% of users own a hard-drive 6 months after release of the system and analysts will say that the number will grow to 90% after a year. A killer app will be released that REQUIRES a hard-drive and they'll get a deal with Microsoft to have a hard-drive and game bundle that ony costs $100 (the same price of the hard-drive at launch).

Developers will then make their games with the hard-drive in mind. . . especially sequels that are hungry to top the feature set of their existing intellectual properties on the console.

Btw, we already had this discussion like a month ago. I've read the thread and I can't seem to see anything new.

Thanks Bean19 that is what I said, not quite so well earlier, but I think Halo 3 might be that App! Also I bet the stand alone HD will go down in price too at some point.

[Zeal]

Those two links also give insight into exactly what my argument is. They are completely accurate.

[Heretic Machine]

Fair enough A-Team, I neglected to look into it any further. But technically, they still basically said that patching wouldn't be required to play any MMO's offered on the 360. Plus, this still doesn't allow for the option of later making games (offline or offline/online) that require the hard-drive.

[Sensei-X]

So much arguing about the multiple SKUs, anyone remember this?

"The NES was released in the US in 1986 and came in two sets: An Arcade set, which included the game Super Mario Bros., and a Deluxe set, which included R.O.B. the robot, a zapper gun and 3 bundled games."

OH NO! Multiple SKU equals the failure!

[Heretic Machine]

So much arguing about the multiple SKUs, anyone remember this?

"The NES was released in the US in 1986 and came in two sets: An Arcade set, which included the game Super Mario Bros., and a Deluxe set, which included R.O.B. the robot, a zapper gun and 3 bundled games."

OH NO! Multiple SKU equals the failure!

Not even close to being the same situation. Please don't post useless comments... You know exactly what's wrong with that.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, we aren't saying that the 360 will fail. We're saying the the consumers are getting fucked because games aren't going to be nearly as good as they could be, all for a marketing ploy.

[Zeal]

So much arguing about the multiple SKUs, anyone remember this?

"The NES was released in the US in 1986 and came in two sets: An Arcade set, which included the game Super Mario Bros., and a Deluxe set, which included R.O.B. the robot, a zapper gun and 3 bundled games."

OH NO! Multiple SKU equals the failure!


Which adds nothing to the fact of what these SKUs are.

[A-Team]

So much arguing about the multiple SKUs, anyone remember this?

"The NES was released in the US in 1986 and came in two sets: An Arcade set, which included the game Super Mario Bros., and a Deluxe set, which included R.O.B. the robot, a zapper gun and 3 bundled games."

OH NO! Multiple SKU equals the failure!
Post hoc fallacy (http://skepdic.com/posthoc.html).

[Achilles]

THEY COULD OF SOLD THE FUCKER FOR $400 AND EVERYONE WOULD OF BOUGHT IT! They aren't making enough core systems to actually fill this so-called demand that he is talking about. Don't you get that?Um, really? Everyone would have bought it. You don't think there's one person, say Joe who plays only Madden who would never need a harddrive that would have passed on the 360 that was $100 more than he expected. MS seems to think there are less than 20% of people who buy consoles at launch who have no use for the hard drive and would rather save the $40 and spend it on a game. You can't say they're wrong because you don't know. They did market research to figure this out. Market reseach is wrong sometimes, but just because you posting here on a hardcore game forum don't see why anyone would rather spend that $40 on Madden than the ability to some day play FFXI doesn't mean that person doesn't exist.

Your point is that the games are going to be weaker because they can’t count on a harddrive. But the instant they propose a game that requires a harddrive the same people complain about how that game screws over Joe, who doesn’t give a damn about that game. I can see why J’s frustrated.

MS will either be proved right with higher marketshare, or proved wrong by not selling any of the Core systems. But for someone to say that they know exactly how the market works and it's unquestionably a bad move is far cockier than anything J is saying.

Personally I think the Revolution's target market doesn't exist, but I'm not going to say for sure that it doesn't exist and there's no way it'll succeed, and that it was a terrible move. I can speculate that it is, but maybe it's not, who knows, I'm certainly not going to come into every Revolution thread and freak out about it for 15 posts. Peeps gotta chill out and see if they're right.

Also why does he keep saying this?“I don’t know who we’ve let down. There isn’t a game on 360 that you can’t play without a hard drive, so I think that’s a good thing for consumers."Why don't any of these interviews ask specifically about FFXI when it comes up? If FFXI doesn't need a harddrive than the statement is correct, but reports from around E3 time say it does.

[ChypeFlux]

The Xbox 360 has 512 MB of fucking RAM! Do you people just not understand this?! The only reason the hard drive was even utilized in the original Xbox is because it only had 64 MB of RAM - seeing as how the Xbox 360 has eight times this much
OMG, what a mind-scrambler...I had NO IDEA it had EIGHT TIMES as much RAM...this changes everything!!

Except that we want higher resolution textures, so if for starters, take a given texture and make it twice the size in each dimension, this texture now takes FOUR TIMES as much memory.

Add in normal maps, which are multiple channel maps (RBG) as compared with single channel (greyscale) bump-mapping and you are using even more memory.

Now throw in a couple of other texture passes, say dirt and/or glow passes...

Finally add in cube maps, which uses SIX textures, as opposed to the single texture used by cheap environment mapping...and all of a sudden, EIGHT TIMES the memory isn't looking so excessive.

Anyway, I'll be plenty happy with the two SKU's fragmenting the market. Good luck this round, ***! ;)

[bean19]

which is that developers are not given the choice to create their games with the HD in mind.


ES: Oblivion and FF XI will already make use of the hard-drive. Obviously using the hard-drive is not something that is against X360's standards and practices.

Microsoft WANTS people to own the hard-drive. Otherwise their directs sales from XBox live would suffer.

EA is going to want to be able to issue roster updates to players via X-Box Live. Perfect Dark Zero is going to want to let players earn special X-Box Live wallpapers or download videos of another game made by Rare.

The functionality of the hard-drive in comparison to the memory card and the negligible price difference will sell these. The only difference is that this time Microsoft isn't footing the bill.

Well. . . not at launch. :)

[Heretic Machine]

ES: Oblivion and FF XI will already make use of the hard-drive. Obviously using the hard-drive is not something that is against X360's standards and practices.


If you aren't going to read about shit we've already discussed in this post, then don't post at all.

[A-Team]

Let's settle the FFXI debate right here, right now folks: FFXI requires the HDD.

Linky (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/651/651665p1.html).

In our playtest today we not only got to party up with a few folks and go out into the world of Vana'diel, but we also saw a Chocobo race first-hand on the Xbox 360. Although the game looks slightly better than the PC version, we did notice some framerate issues when several characters were on the screen at once, but we were playing on unoptimized code, so Square Enix should have plenty of time to optimize the game before its release.

FFXI for the X360 will require a HDD to play, so if you're looking forward to jumping into the online world of Final Fantasy, you should plan to buy an Xbox 360 premium system, or a core system and a separate hard drive. The game will be going into beta soon, and the final game should be available on the X360 sometime in early 2006.
We all read about this awhile ago, so I'm not sure why I just remembered it. Anyway, so yeah. Argue on.

[Heretic Machine]

That means that Microsoft lied, simple as that.

[Zeal]

This has been known for eternity. FFXI is a PC port of a game developed to utilize the harddrive. There is no choice.

This is a harddrive specific game.

[A-Team]

This has been known for eternity. FFXI is a PC port of a game developed to utilize the harddrive. There is no choice.

This is a harddrive specific game.
Yes, but our pals that were unable to keep up with the thread kept getting confused. They have been enlightened by my ability to Google like a pro.

[Achilles]

Yes, but our pals that were unable to keep up with the thread kept getting confused. They have been enlightened by my ability to Google like a pro.You are a fine googler, and everything we know about FFXI says that it requires a hard drive. So why isn't there a single interviewer that manages to remember that and ask about it?

[A-Team]

You are a fine googler, and everything we know about FFXI says that it requires a hard drive. So why isn't there a single interviewer that manages to remember that and ask about it?
To be honest with you, I do not know. I'd imagine it has something to do with the fact that everyone is tired of seeing Final Fantasy XI getting the thumbs-up because it's a cross-platform title. Granted it laid the foundation for up-and-coming games like Call of Duty 2: Big Red One going cross-platform, but Square needs to stop worrying about FFXI and start looking ahead to offering a new MMO.

[Cyrano]

The only reason this whole issue got blown up like a blimp was because Xbox owners got the *impression* that the next-gen Xbox would come standard with a HDD, but unfortunately for them, Microsoft and their investors want to see cold hard cash this time.


Gee, how did Xbox owners get the *impression* that the next-gen Xbox would come standard with a HDD? Could it be the internationally broadcast infomercial on the 360 featuring J. Allard himself, followed by Microsoft's website about the 360 listing the HDD as standand?

If Microsoft had come out at the beginning saying that the HDD was optional, things would have gone much better.

[A-Team]

Gee, how did Xbox owners get the *impression* that the next-gen Xbox would come standard with a HDD? Could it be the internationally broadcast infomercial on the 360 featuring J. Allard himself, followed by Microsoft's website about the 360 listing the HDD as standand?

If Microsoft had come out at the beginning saying that the HDD was optional, things would have gone much better.
No, I'm pretty sure we would have still had threads like this.

[Achilles]

20% of 360's will be core. That is no where near the ratio they would need to fill any kind of "mother's buying consoles for kids" sort of demand. You guys are so keen to point out that the majority of gamers wouldn't want the hard-drive, then why are the majority of 360's coming with a hard-drive?Consider that most but not all (there's always a Joe Madden) early adopters, people who are willing to spend $300 on a console in the beginning are also the same people willing to spend $400 and want every bell and whistle that they can get. Later when the price comes down on both SKUs and the core hits $200 you start getting the parents buying it, where they wouldn’t buy the $300 or $350 full system. If the Core didn’t exist now however it could never exist because everyone would make their games to require the HDD. And if the PS3 was able to price reduce below the full 360 system bundle thing because they don’t care about a hard drive than they would have reached the cheap market first and left MS behind. What MS probably didn’t count on is that the PS3 apparently costs so much you have to work overtime to afford one.

Apologies on the split posts, I'm working backward through this monster and there were 30 new posts while I was writing the first one.

[rein]

The only reason the $400 package is out pre-selling the $300 is because nobody knows how important the hard drive will be. That and most pre-orders are people who are already playing on the Xbox and Live. Once things settle down and if the hard drive is really not needed for people who do not play on live those core system sales will probably increase dramatically.

[Heretic Machine]

That and most pre-orders are people who are already playing on the Xbox and Live.

I doubt that very much. Live only has 10% of the XBOX user base. Even when I wanted to get the 360, I wasn't a Live subscriber.

Live is a rip-off, by the way.

[Beelzebud]

It was dumb to make the HDD optional.

This isn't comlicated, folks.

[Achilles]

He is bitching about the hardrive becoming USELESS for the one thing we all buy a damn Xbox360 for--to play games. Whatever else it does, the hardware I get when I buy a system should be able to be used for that purpose. That's what the hardware is there for--to run videogames. And yet... Microsoft forbids.How about game demos that you can download, game trailers that you can download, Live Arcade games, and the fact that games can still cache to reduce load times. If Halo 3 doesn’t require a hard drive, and I agree with Major Dan that it might be the first non-MMO to require the thing (it'll be either that or a huge japanese RPG), than it’s perfectly possible that if you have a harddrive the game will be seamless but if you don’t the game will have load times. It’s not an impossible thing to do.

[Heretic Machine]

How about game demos that you can download, game trailers that you can download, Live Arcade games, and the fact that games can still cache to reduce load times. If Halo 3 doesn’t require a hard drive, and I agree with Major Dan that it might be the first non-MMO to require the thing (it'll be either that or a huge japanese RPG), than it’s perfectly possible that if you have a harddrive the game will be seamless but if you don’t the game will have load times. It’s not an impossible thing to do.

Refer to the previous posts about Microsoft requiring core system compliance from all games.

[Achilles]

Refer to the previous posts about Microsoft requiring core system compliance from all games.Are you talking about FFXI? Because I'm pretty sure that it falls in to the MMO category that I spelled out in the post you quoted. After reading this thread I didn't see an example of a non-MMO game that required the hard drive. The possible Halo 3 would still work without the hard drive, you'd just get a loading bar every once in a while.

[Major Dan]

How about game demos that you can download, game trailers that you can download, Live Arcade games, and the fact that games can still cache to reduce load times. If Halo 3 doesn’t require a hard drive, and I agree with Major Dan that it might be the first non-MMO to require the thing (it'll be either that or a huge japanese RPG), than it’s perfectly possible that if you have a harddrive the game will be seamless but if you don’t the game will have load times. It’s not an impossible thing to do.


Thanks Achilles, and I agree with you that a game could be made to support the HD and not support it at the same time. I am no expert coder, but it seems to me the game could check to see if there is a hard drive, if yes, then use it. Simple. *** would be happy, HD owners happy and no HD owners happy. Developer might not be as happy but their game could sell to more people then not.
Live is a rip-off, by the way.

Perigon, why do you say that? I find my time on Live to be rather enjoyable whether I am playing Halo 2, Burnout 3 or some other game. $50 a year is reasonable for the service I get. I could get it on my computer but it takes a lot more work on my part, time and hassle over all. So I don't agree with you there. To each their own but I like the Live experience.

[Phades]

That means that Microsoft lied, simple as that.

Or simply changed their mind about what they were going to do or were able to afford. Might as well call missing a release date a "lie."

Live is a rip-off, by the way.
I'd pay $50 a year for the PS2 to have worthwhile online play. Just so you know, something that isn't worthwhile to you doesn't automatically = ripoff. I feel I get my $$'s worth as I've enjoyed playing games on live more than anywhere else.

HAHAHAHA, yeah right.
REAL influential. Granted the Live component may have influenced the game industry somewhat, but really?
Designing a game where the player completes a whole bunch of boring, low poly corridors, with the occasional outdoor area, and then, get this, DOES THEM ALL AGAIN IN REVERSE!!! GOLD! First, Halo didn't have a Live component. 2nd, the fact that the launch day of the sequel was the single biggest revenue day in the entertainment industry shows that some people might feel differently about Halo than you do.

[RandomViolence]

Ummm... you aren't really arguing that Halo isn't influential, right? Please tell me you're not some goddamn moron who thinks that the most popular online console game ever isn't influential.

Anyway, as far as the hard-drive is concerned, I think it was a major mistake splitting the SKUs and Microsoft fucked up hardcore in that regard. I won't go as far as Perigon, and I believe they'll allow games that require the HD like Nintendo allowed games that required the RAM expansion for the N64. Given that 80% of the consumer base should be already equipped with the necessary hardware, it shouldn't be a problem. I don't know a single person buying the Core package, and if I did it wouldn't stay that way for long.

[Montgomery_Python]

I wasn't planning on a getting a 360 but this fact they won't fully utilize the hardware available seals the deal.

/waves his remote at the 360 to slice it in half. Wait, MS already did slice it in half... Quarters then!

[Chagrinful]

This thread fucking rocks, its like everyone is getting ripped to shreds and it like people are making baby jesus cry

baby jesus=devoted overzealous retarded xbox fanbois to the end.

If they put something like THIS in a 360 game, fuck I'd buy it to just sit back and laugh.

[Zeal]

What rocks is that Allard just got surved.

[Adewade]

...

The games are looking really fun!

[trip1eX]

The problem of course is yeah MS said hey gamers pay for the hard drive if you want it. But now the hard drive isn't as useful as it was this last generation.

And then of course they pretty much made the skus so everyone will buy the hard drive. But yet games have to run with no hard drive.

They should have just had one sku at $299 with a wireless controller and kept the hard drive as an accessory only.

[Zeal]

The problem of course is yeah MS said hey gamers pay for the hard drive if you want it. But now the hard drive isn't as useful as it was this last generation.

And then of course they pretty much made the skus so everyone will buy the hard drive. But yet games have to run with no hard drive.

They should have just had one sku at $299 with a wireless controller and kept the hard drive as an accessory only.

Flawless....

[Pantsmonkey]

I skimmed the other pages, really I did...

What I get from the article.

Xbox costs a fortune to make (well it used to speaking historically) which mean a sizeable
loss on each unit sold until the price of the componants/production came down to a level
where cost of Componanys + Production < $RRP = Profit.

If you take the HDD out of the above equation they make money earlier
(I think lose less money for longer would be more correct but meh)

According to the article somewhere in the realm of %50 percent isntalled userbase isnt
using the HDD for Xbox1.

Now as stupid as is sounds to have 2 consoles it must stack up $$$ wise and reasonably well.

With the 350 / 360 this gets more units shipped with or without HDD thus more software to
pimp to more customers.

It would be saving *** a fair chunk of change to make the 350 and they know there is at
least 5 to 10 million people who will probably by it based on the assumed / somehow
calculated use of HDD in Xbox 1.

Reminds me of needing the Expansion pack for Perfect Dark just quietly.

Xbox 360 is built for Dollars not for UberGamers.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

The Xbox 360 has 512 MB of fucking RAM! Do you people just not understand this?! The only reason the hard drive was even utilized in the original Xbox is because it only had 64 MB of RAM - seeing as how the Xbox 360 has eight times this much I don't think developers will have a problem cacheing to the RAM to improve loading times. And for those of you technically incompetent forum addicts: the hard drive does NOT improve the graphics of a videogame - it speeds up loading times and marginally improves framerate speeds. Sometimes.

I wish that you people would grasp the idea of how the hard drive actually affects your games before you bitch about it.

I see you are quite passionate about this. The problem that Volition stated was the transfre rate of the 12x dvd. Because it isn't fast enough to stream his environment in 720p, he would have utilized the hd to cache the extra data needed. Without this built in cache, he stated he had to eliminate flying from his game.
It isn't a matter of us all being 'dumb' or technologically challenged. We have a developer speaking his mind about a problem he is facing. Just as From Software and Itagaki complained about the lack of space of the DVD9. Just because we bring up the issues, doesn't mean the system is terrible. But we do have the right to discuss what we feel are flaws in the system w/out being talked down to like mongoloids.

Now all of you retards who have been complaining, do so without the swear words.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a153/TyroneBiggumz/pwned7lt.gif

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Another point. Everyone who keeps referring back to the Xbox1 in regards to who used the HD, you are missing the point. Xbox1 was the 2nd thought when it comes to games. Games were developed for PS2 first and then ported over to the Xbox. Developers looked at the Xbox as a great system, but they had no incentive to use the HD. They simply made a game on the PS2, prettied up the graphics a little and dumped it on X1.
This won't be the case with X2. X2 is the first and only next gen system out there. So developers who make a next gen game will make their games work on the base model of the 360 which will be the largest audience. Since the next gen game will cost more money to make, they must reach more consumers...in turn, they will develop for a system that is standard. The hd not being standard, it will be an afterthought.

Everyone who keeps going on about the Premium being the most preordered system is ignoring one thing. Those are the hardcore gamers who want the system day one...regardless of cost. Casual Joe will probably end up buying the $299 version, getting Madden and an extra controller. I'm pretty sure that MS will sell quite a few Core versions once X-mas is over. The split will most definitely not be 90% premium and 10% core. I'd bet that once consumers see that the HD isn't being used to improve many games, they will go for the core version. In turn, developers will eventually stop developing for the hd as the margins of owners without one will keep growing. At this point, MS may start their plan of hosted memory like they discussed.

But, this is all speculation. Specualtion about a topic no one can know the outcome. We will see how it plays out next X-mas when the PS3 rolls out. Once all of the Blu-Ray disk and player issues have been worked out and Sony can produce their machine.

[Mason]

I don't know a single person buying the Core package, and if I did it wouldn't stay that way for long.

The people you know = on video game forums.

When Mom goes to get Timmy an XBox 360 for Christmas, 99% of the time she'll get the $300 version (and then come back to the store on Christmas Day and pick up all the accessories it needs). And Timmy's Mom makes up a huge percentage of system sales.

The biggest problem with the lack of assured hard drives is that MS really had a corner on the possibilities of great online service + local storage. The two aspects play off each other really well. Diminishing one of them reduces the value of them both, and makes it more likely that developers won't try interesting new things with rich online services. I don't care if one dumbass developer can't figure out how to handle airplanes without the hard drive, the real loss is in discouraging storage + XBox Live synergy.

[Heretic Machine]

When Mom goes to get Timmy an XBox 360 for Christmas, 99% of the time she'll get the $300 version (and then come back to the store on Christmas Day and pick up all the accessories it needs). And Timmy's Mom makes up a huge percentage of system sales.

Again, it's too damn bad she won't be able to find a core system, since the overwhelming majority of systems are premium.

I'd pay $50 a year for the PS2 to have worthwhile online play. Just so you know, something that isn't worthwhile to you doesn't automatically = ripoff. I feel I get my $$'s worth as I've enjoyed playing games on live more than anywhere else.

$50 for a service you can get for free on the PC. For a service you WILL get for free on the Revolution and DS. That's a rip-off.

[Dirty Harry]

I think you should be banned for contributing nothing to the discussion. If you're gonna troll, at least do it with style.
HAH, i have something to add to your quip,
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/9972/bscap0075mg.jpg

[Zeal]

That's better.

[Hellstorm]

He's just in a bitchy mood since Nintendo is going to offer a Live like service, minus the annoying voice chat, for FREE.

[bapenguin]

I can not believe Perigon and Zeal stayed up all night on their personal crusade against the 360. Absolutely amazing.

Zeal...when has a hard drive been anything more than SPACE?

[earthworm48]

What do people think of the PS3 apparently not having a HDD and how it will affect (Sp) its games?

http://hardware.gamespot.com/Story-ST-15015-2238-4-4-x

Also Sony's feature cutting? (Although this is only 1 not so great feature but more could happen)

http://hardware.gamespot.com/Story-ST-15015-2270-4-4-x

Allard doesn't seem to listen does he, I just wish in that interview they said about FFXI and the fact there is only 1 SKU in Japan, which is what people had wanted worldwide all along.

The argument for and against are valid to a certain degree, but theres still quite a bit of speculation. I do think that they have lied somewhat, and that the situation that we are now in is less than optimal, but I suppose we mainly have to wait and see. Right now I'd say it would affect negatively but I don't think it makes the machine half as powerful or whatever else people were saying.

Even though they haven't produced much for ages but I put more merit to Scott Miller (I think) saying that this wasn't a good idea in the next gen developer opinion article from a few months back. I don't really care about volition (sp) right now as I hate their past games, I hate GTA and I think Saint's Row looks like complete crap (the game i'm not talking about graphics).

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=796&Itemid=2

[fitbabits]

I can not believe Perigon and Zeal stayed up all night on their personal crusade against the 360. Absolutely amazing.

Zeal...when has a hard drive been anything more than SPACE?
Perhaps you need to take a deep breath before submitting such news articles and inviting comment? :D I mean, if someone can sue McDonalds for too-hot hot coffee, Zeal and Perigon could probably sue you for... something!! :rolleyes:

[bapenguin]

Perhaps you need to take a deep breath before submitting such news articles and inviting comment? :D I mean, if someone can sue McDonalds for too-hot hot coffee, Zeal and Perigon could probably sue you for... something!! :rolleyes:

It was definitley a worthwhile article, it's kinda funny to hear a top level guy get so defensive and everything. It just amazes me how much energy those 2 put into the anti-360 thing....I'm not sure what they get out of it.

[fitbabits]

It was definitley a worthwhile article, it's kinda funny to hear a top level guy get so defensive and everything. It just amazes me how much energy those 2 put into the anti-360 thing....I'm not sure what they get out of it.
No question it was worthwhile. I find it somewhat incredulous that some people have so many different ways of saying the same thing over and over.

As for what Zeal and Perigon get out of it - well, only they know. Perhaps they could enlighten us? BTW, this is not meant as a criticism toward either Zeal or Perigon - I do enjoy your rantings!

[Ernst_Jager]

You have to love arguments over speculation.

[Bumbuliuz]

I love my current Xbox and I will be getting a 360 with HD. I cant understand this "mistake" on MS part. It just feels like a bad move

[Xerxes]

It just amazes me how much energy those 2 put into the anti-360 thing....I'm not sure what they get out of it.

It's like they are vulcans, all is logical and they are only seeing their logic. :o
The funny thing is they aren't ps3 "fanbois" but anyone who likes the xbox 360 regardless of the hard drive being a accessory are in fact "fanbois."

If this all on MS marketing, why didn't they just release the core system as like the only system. XBOX 360 DOESN'T HAVE A HARD DRIVE. But in fact created the premium box as like a bundled box. Kinda like how nintendo use to have the plain ass box, and the box with a extra game controller and gun and other crap.

[Winter wolf]

I'm sick of hearing ANYONE try to defend Microsoft's decision to remove the harddrive.
Microsoft doesn't realize how bad they're fucking themselves in the ass with this
You certainly're on the other side of the camp.

[Xerxes]

I bought a second xbox. I know two other friends who did the same thing. Not for modding purposes. Because like the joke about Sony getting triple sells from people replacing broke PS2 came to the Xbox world. Our Xbox world of course. It did take about 3 years before they went down, having a good run. Was it fixable, hell yeah unlike the PS2 issues. Wasn't a big issue at all. It was the fucking hard drive, slapped in a new one modded and you were set. Hell if the Xbox 360 last even longer cause the HDD isn't a major component, I'll be ok. Sure my brother got a modded xbox but that doesn't help me.

[Roc Ingersol]

The XBox had a harddrive. Developers didn't really do anything with it that they didn't do on the PS2. /shrug
(besides XBL stuff)

It is kinda dumb of them to make the HD optional, while they're pushing Live so hard (since live basically requires it for anything interesting). But, oh well.

They were playing chicken with Sony on specs, and Sony didn't feel like digging into their pockets to make the HD standard. So Microsoft doesn't feel like spending what they don't have to, to keep up.

So you and I have to spend it.

[Montgomery_Python]

I can not believe Perigon and Zeal stayed up all night on their personal crusade against the 360. Absolutely amazing.

Zeal...when has a hard drive been anything more than SPACE?

RAM is only space as well.

[EternalGamer]

It was definitley a worthwhile article, it's kinda funny to hear a top level guy get so defensive and everything. It just amazes me how much energy those 2 put into the anti-360 thing....I'm not sure what they get out of it.

Although I can't of course speak for them personally, I can tell you that my qualm with the situition, as minor as it is, is the naivete of people who take MS's marketing at face value. It is pretty apparent to me that this $299 Xbox is really smoke and mirrors. As I have said before, to me it is like those Rent-A-Center scams where you get the product and end up paying twice the price of it to make "lay-away" payments. At the very least people who buy the Core system HAVE to buy a $40 memory card, and if they ever decide they want to use all the features MS is actually pushing the360 as having--like LIVE or Backwards Compatibility, or HDreception they have to buy Headsets, Harddrives, and Componnent Cables. They end up paying a ridiculious amount more.

Maybe if the prices came out to about the same, I could agree that MS was just trying to offer the consumer options. But this is more like a Fast Food restaurant offering you the "choice" of a "value burger" in which you have to pay an extra $1.25 for each bun, $1.00 for cheese, $.50 for ketchup, and $.25 if want pickles, lettuce, or tomato.

It is a bit irritating politically to watch marketing spin be pushed off as "Choice" and "Freedom!" Perhaps these are in line with some people's definition of choice, like the "choice" the evangelical's God gives between "burning for ever in a lake of fire" and "worship God" or the "freedom" involved in Iraq's "Operation Liberation." But some of us are annoyed by what we see as abuses of this type of terminology. We are annoyed because it doesn't represent the underlying reality, yet people just take this stuff at face value. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that 360's HD issue is as important as any of the religious/political issues facing us internationally. MS's use of the terminology is almost inconsequential by comparison. But politics of language behind that terminology are much along the same lines.

Dan

[Roc Ingersol]

is the naivete of people who take MS's marketing at face value
I don't think these people actually exist.

The only people who 'believe' Microsoft's marketing or Sony's marketing, are people who have already chosen sides. They don't necessarily 'believe' the lies, they just know their dad can beat up your dad. They repeat marketing bullet points because there can be no real justification for their identifying with a brand at all, let alone a product that doesn't yet exist.

It is pretty apparent to me that this $299 Xbox is really smoke and mirrors.
I don't think so. I think there are legitimately a bunch of people who will buy the thing for one dumb reason or another. Not least of all, because they care more about $60 than a hard drive. For the 360 to grow its market share, it has to pick up PS2 and GC owners. Almost none of those people have ever cared about a hard drive before, or taken their console online. They're arguably not missing out on anything.

[Phades]

It is pretty apparent to me that this $299 Xbox is really smoke and mirrors. As I have said before, to me it is like those Rent-A-Center scams where you get the product and end up paying twice the price of it to make "lay-away" payments. At the very least people who buy the Core system HAVE to buy a $40 memory card, and if they ever decide they want to use all the features MS is actually pushing the360 as having--like LIVE or Backwards Compatibility, or HDreception they have to buy Headsets, Harddrives, and Componnent Cables. They end up paying a ridiculious amount more.

Perhaps for $400 some people would prefer to have the system, a memory card, and a game. I wouldn't, but I can see why some would, especially parents. Many people won't care about there not being a hard drive just like they didn't care that the PS2 didn't have a hard drive. They spend $400 and they have a complete system they can take home and begin playing some (hopefully for their sake) awesome next-gen game. For many people, this will be an attractive option. And before you start yelling "But there won't be any AVAILABLE," realize that if that's true, that means that the 20% of Core systems are obviously finding their customer who like this option.

$50 for a service you can get for free on the PC. For a service you WILL get for free on the Revolution and DS. That's a rip-off. You're making an assumption about the Revolution and DS service since not a single person on this board has seen or used it. We don't know how good it will be or everything it will entail. If Nintendo releases a service that is as good as or better than Live, I'll be surprised if Microsoft doesn't either drop the price or make it free. In the end, I'll bet Nintendo's is along the same lines as the PS2's. But, I'd love to be wrong on that. It also doesn't help that in the case of the Revolution, there probably won't be much to play online on it except Nintendo's games.

As for the PC, I've played many PC games online and no, the experience isn't as good and seamless as Xbox Live. There is no standard online community for PC games. If there was, I bet you it wouldn't be free.

[Heretic Machine]

You're making an assumption about the Revolution and DS service since not a single person on this board has seen or used it

We know what the details are. Free online play, that's a free version of everything you get on Live that is worth anything. In any case, paying to host games on your own XBOX, with your own bandwidth is dumbassery to it's greatest extent.

Try paying $10 every night to sleep in your own bed.

[Heretic Machine]

I can not believe Perigon and Zeal stayed up all night on their personal crusade against the 360. Absolutely amazing.

I stayed up playing Windwaker, I don't know what you're talking about. And by the way, to anyone who criticizes me or Zeal, keep in mind that you're taking time out of your day to bad mouth two people on a forum who actually stayed on topic, and brought up arguments that have yet to be refuted by any of you. Maybe you fuckers should just get off the damn forums, or at least stay out of topics like this?

[fitbabits]

Maybe you fuckers should just get off the damn forums, or at least stay out of topics like this?
Actually, I think I'll hang around for the entertainment value. If that's okay with you.

[fitbabits]

We know what the details are. Free online play, that's a free version of everything you get on Live that is worth anything. In any case, paying to host games on your own XBOX, with your own bandwidth is dumbassery to it's greatest extent.

Try paying $10 every night to sleep in your own bed.
And back in May I would have said that I knew for a fact that every Xbox 360 would come with a hard drive. Just because Nintendo (or whoever) say it, it doesn't automatically make it gospel.

And I pay approximately $25 a night to sleep in my own bed - it's called a mortgage.

[Heretic Machine]

And back in May I would have said that I knew for a fact that every Xbox 360 would come with a hard drive. Just because Nintendo (or whoever) say it, it doesn't automatically make it gospel.

Well we'll see next month when Nintendo's online service goes live.

[fitbabits]

Well we'll see next month when Nintendo's online service goes live.
That we will, but until then it's all just rumor/speculation/talking-head-speak - not fact.

[Xerxes]

Perigon, what do we know about Nintendo's online system? I know nothing actually, and haven't been able to find out nothing amazing. I need to know why you are so excited about it. Now, I'm one for seeing online with Nintendo, so fill me in. You got a link?

[Heretic Machine]

Perigon, what do we know about Nintendo's online system? I know nothing actually, and haven't been able to find out nothing amazing. I need to know why you are so excited about it. Now, I'm one for seeing online with Nintendo, so fill me in. You got a link?

No, I don't have a magical link to every one of the countless articles discussing Nintendo's online plans. If you don't know anything about it, then it's your fault for not paying attention to the news, go find the links yourself.

[Phades]

We know what the details are. Free online play, that's a free version of everything you get on Live that is worth anything. In any case, paying to host games on your own XBOX, with your own bandwidth is dumbassery to it's greatest extent.

Try paying $10 every night to sleep in your own bed.

The PS2 also has free online play and it's not nearly as good. Would I pay $50 a year for what I get on the PS2? No. Xbox? Yes. Once again you ignore the point that we don't really know the real details for Revolution online and go back to humping Nintendo's leg. The universal friends lists are a huge feature to me as I have many friends that play online and it's cool to see what they're playing so I can join them if I want. I also like that all games on Live support voice chat, that's a very big feature to me. Once again, just because YOU don't see value in it doesn't make it a ripoff.

[fitbabits]

No, I don't have a magical link to every one of the countless articles discussing Nintendo's online plans. If you don't know anything about it, then it's your fault for not paying attention to the news, go find the links yourself.
I vote we change the title of this thread to Allard & Perigon Get Defensive.

[civx]

The PS2 also has free online play and it's not nearly as good. Would I pay $50 a year for what I get on the PS2? No. Xbox? Yes. Once again you ignore the point that we don't really know the real details for Revolution online and go back to humping Nintendo's leg. The universal friends lists are a huge feature to me as I have many friends that play online and it's cool to see what they're playing so I can join them if I want. I also like that all games on Live support voice chat, that's a very big feature to me. Once again, just because YOU don't see value in it doesn't make it a ripoff.

But dude, you have to pay 50 dollars a year. That's a RIPOFF! I can play games for free on my PC!

[fitbabits]

No, I don't have a magical link to every one of the countless articles discussing Nintendo's online plans. If you don't know anything about it, then it's your fault for not paying attention to the news, go find the links yourself.
Link to ONE article. You know, if only just to strengthen your position.

[Phades]

No, I don't have a magical link to every one of the countless articles discussing Nintendo's online plans. If you don't know anything about it, then it's your fault for not paying attention to the news, go find the links yourself.

In other words, "No I don't have anything to back up my claims! I'd rather just spout the stuff and tell you to 'go find it!' Then, when you can't, I'll just say 'well it's not my fault that you can't find the stuff to defend my argument. It's out there where any idiot could find it...idiot!'"

[Xerxes]

No, I don't have a magical link to every one of the countless articles discussing Nintendo's online plans. If you don't know anything about it, then it's your fault for not paying attention to the news, go find the links yourself.

Like fitsbabits said, there is no fact based nintendo news. Online that is..

[Phades]

But dude, you have to pay 50 dollars a year. That's a RIPOFF! I can play games for free on my PC!

Yawn. Once again, the PC does not have a universal online community with friends lists and standards for every game. This is what Xbox Live has, this is why I like Xbox Live. If I make a friend playing Halo2 and later see that he is playing Rainbow Six 3, I can say "cool, I have that too. I'll go join him." That doesn't exist on the PC, or PS2, or as of yet, the Revolution.

[Heretic Machine]

The PS2 also has free online play and it's not nearly as good. Would I pay $50 a year for what I get on the PS2? No. Xbox? Yes. Once again you ignore the point that we don't really know the real details for Revolution online and go back to humping Nintendo's leg. The universal friends lists are a huge feature to me as I have many friends that play online and it's cool to see what they're playing so I can join them if I want. I also like that all games on Live support voice chat, that's a very big feature to me. Once again, just because YOU don't see value in it doesn't make it a ripoff.

The PS2 leaves online play to the companies that make the games. We already know this isn't true for Nintendo, they have teamed with Gaemspy to make a universal online play system. Now if you jack-asses will SHUT THE FUCK UP for a few second, I'll go find a link so you don't soil your diapers any further.

[Xerxes]

Hey didn't xbox have a shitty free online setup through gamespy until live came about?

[civx]

Yawn. Once again, the PC does not have a universal online community with friends lists and standards for every game. This is what Xbox Live has, this is why I like Xbox Live. If I make a friend playing Halo2 and later see that he is playing Rainbow Six 3, I can say "cool, I have that too. I'll go join him." That doesn't exist on the PC, or PS2, or as of yet, the Revolution.

I was kidding. Chillax.

[Heretic Machine]

Hey didn't xbox have a shitty free online setup through gamespy until live came about?


That's called tunneling. That is no something the Microsoft did, and I'm pretty sure they don't like it.

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3653&highlight=Nintendo+online+Revolution

http://www.nintendo.com/newsarticle?articleid=5bd75b1d-25f5-40f5-9a30-ef3ec7291401&page=newsmain

And the king of them all for you little bitches who can't seem to keep up with the news.

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4675&highlight=Nintendo+online

[Xerxes]

Wait I thought we was talking about Revolution, not DS. :confused:

[Heretic Machine]

Same service Xerxes.

[Phades]

That's called tunneling. That is no something the Microsoft did, and I'm pretty sure they don't like it.

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3653&highlight=Nintendo+online+Revolution

http://www.nintendo.com/newsarticle?articleid=5bd75b1d-25f5-40f5-9a30-ef3ec7291401&page=newsmain

And the king of them all for you little bitches who can't seem to keep up with the news.

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4675&highlight=Nintendo+online

Until Nintendo makes an official announcement and shows us their service, this is all we have to go off of :)

http://www.nintendoland.com/home2.htm?snes/snescdr.htm

[Heretic Machine]

Phades, why don't you just shut up and go suck on Allard's cock some more? Honestly, you asked for links, I gave you links to someone from Nintendo giving an interview about the details of their online service.

You phail at debate.

[Xerxes]

Same service Xerxes.
I read Jim's interview and he didn't mention next gen. Hey man you can read my damn sig, I want pokemon online. NPC trainers is to stupid and I need HI(human intelligence) opponents. No doubt the new DS game with that service might be stellar I was still hoping for revolution online and free. And all that jazz.

Nintendo's Online File: Still under review.

Until I get press release or interview dropping the next gen 411 or maybe even it's actual usage.

[fitbabits]

Phades, why don't you just shut up and go suck on Allard's cock some more? Honestly, you asked for links, I gave you links to someone from Nintendo giving an interview about the details of their online service.

You phail at debate.
Damn, Perigon - you really have a potty mouth. You need some anger management therapy and a good dose of humility. :rolleyes:

[Heretic Machine]

I read Jim interview and he didn't mention next gen.

It's the SAME SERVICE. If anything, the Revolution might have MORE features, but we can safely say that it won't have less. The important part being that it's FREE ONLINE PLAY.

[Phades]

Phades, why don't you just shut up and go suck on Allard's cock some more? Honestly, you asked for links, I gave you links to someone from Nintendo giving an interview about the details of their online service.

You phail at debate.

I appreciate the links. I agree with you that if Nintendo lives up to it, Microsoft will have to do something with Live because it'll look bad. I still maintain that standard voice chat is important, but alone it's not worth my $$.

I'm a Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo fanboy. I'll defend what I like and what's been proven. As for failing, I believe the person who has to resort to the "shut up" to be on the losing end as they don't want to hear any more refute to their claims.

[earthworm48]

With regards to the friends on PC thing, what about X fire and the like?

[Heretic Machine]

I still maintain that standard voice chat is important, but alone it's not worth my $$.

Ok, maybe some people like voice chat, but most people I know agree that voice chat has reduced the amount of pleasure they get out of Live, not increased it. Hell, I cancelled my Live account because I couldn't stand to hear the shit that I kept getting over Halo 2.

What's interesting to me is that you chew on Microsoft for not living up to promises and call them liars but then trust Nintendo unconditionaly, even when they "lie" all the time, just like many companies do.

Have you heard my opinions on the GBA Micro? Or the tacked on touch screen mechanics in most DS games, like the new Castlevania? I'm not a fanboy of anyone, I call this stuff as I see it, and if a company brings out a bunch of hate from me then it's their own damn fault. Nintendo just happens to be worthy of praise more often than Microsoft lately.

By the way, my favored console of this generation was the XBOX.

[Xerxes]

He doesnt say its the same. He goes on about DS, not about it's future implications. Free is all well and good but gamespy's tunneling was free too but shitty. Ps2 is online as well. I know it's not the same, but shitty free online is shitty nonetheless.

[Heretic Machine]

doesnt say its the same. He goes on about DS, not about it's future implications. Free is all well and good but gamespy's tunneling was free too but shitty. Ps2 is online as well. I know it's not the same, but shitty free online is shitty nonetheless.


Dammit, go read some friggin articles, they are the SAME SERVICE. That's the whole point.

And the Gamespy tunneling was shitty because it was TUNNELING. Do you not understand what that means? That means that you're using a game's LAN code to play over the internet, of course it'll be shitty!

[Phades]

Ok, maybe some people like voice chat, but most people I know agree that voice chat has reduced the amount of pleasure they get out of Live, not increased it. Hell, I cancelled my Live account because I couldn't stand to hear the shit that I kept getting over Halo 2.

Most people on Live prefer having voice chat. You can see this simply by the number of times you'll get booted from a game if you don't have your headset plugged in. It allows for better team coordination and is just plain easier than having to type out everything you want to say, especially in the middle of an action game. If someone is annoying you, either mute them so you don't have to listen to their idiocy (you can do that you know) or find a different game. It's nice to have this be an integrated part of the service and not something tacked on that works like crap (Battlefield 2?).

[Heretic Machine]

The problem is that I'd have to mute EVERYONE. 9/10 people I met on Live were either complete morons, or nine years old. Usually both. Hell, I was walking down the hall of my dorm the other day when I heard someone screaming at someone else. I didn't hear any response to his hissy fit, so I go and look in the open door. He's sitting there in front of a TV, playing Halo 2 with his headset on, and appearently fighting with someone over "cheating."

Those are the kind of people you meet on Live more often than not, and honestly I'd rather not have any kind of communication with them at all if it means that I have to hear them bitching.

[Xerxes]

And with the new xbox live those folks will have low ass ratings and be the people playing with people like themselves.

[Phades]

The problem is that I'd have to mute EVERYONE. 9/10 people I met on Live were either complete morons, or nine years old. Usually both. Hell, I was walking down the hall of my dorm the other day when I heard someone screaming at someone else. I didn't hear any response to his hissy fit, so I go and look in the open door. He's sitting there in front of a TV, playing Halo 2 with his headset on, and appearently fighting with someone over "cheating."

Those are the kind of people you meet on Live more often than not, and honestly I'd rather not have any kind of communication with them at all if it means that I have to hear them bitching.

I'm sorry that your experience with voice chat has been far lesser than mine. I've had very few problems with idiots on it. I think I may have run into only a handful of people that really irritated me. Sure, there've been many idiots, but not that annoyed me enough to damage my gaming experience. Granted, I tend to play Rainbow Six 3 and Splinter Cell online the most, they seem to appeal more to mature people and have far fewer kids. When I find a game full of them, I move on. But, I get the feeling that I'm far less high-strung than you sound, no offense. I don't mean that rudely.

[bean19]

Perigon is a whiny titty baby.

[netcraazzy]

Damn this is one monster post, allow me to make it lots longer  Allard's claim that they are offering the consumer a choice is completely besides the fact and is just him trying to justify an obviously money related decision. Here is Microsoft's dilemma; it may shed some light on why they did the dual SKUs. As everybody knows they are losing money on the original Xbox hardware but the reason is complicated.

Every console company plans on reducing the expense of manufacturing their product over time through various methods such as improved manufacturing techniques, economies of scale and renegotiating contracts. This is how Sony is able to debut the PS2 at $299 and maybe not be making much money on the hardware but later sell it for $199 and eventually $99 and still break even or make a profit.

Unfortunately Microsoft hasn't been able to achieve manufacturing savings on the level that Sony and Nintendo have which is why they are loosing money since they still have to match Sony's prices to compete. The reason is partially because they don't own, so to speak, the CPU and GPU in the Xbox. Intel sells Microsoft the CPU and Nvidia sells Microsoft the GPU. Even if Intel and Nvidia manage to achieve manufacturing savings over time on their chips they don’t necessarily have to pass those savings on to Microsoft. This is why with 360 Microsoft has their own custom designed CPU and GPU. They may have been designed by IBM and ATI but Microsoft owns those designs and can have whoever the hell they want to manufacture the chips. This is how Sony and Nintendo do things, which is part of why they are not losing money on their hardware the way MS is. (edit. I'm pretty sure IBM and ATI still get some form of fee for each unit but it's still cheaper than buying the chips outright.)

So, the CPU and GPU cost issues are fixed with the 360 but apparently Microsoft was still concerned about achieving cost savings on their hardware down the road. This is why the hard drive becomes non-standard. Hard drives are another component that has to be purchased from a 3rd party, but unlike CPUs and GPUs it's not common practice to design your own hard drive and then whore out the manufacturing to the lowest bidder. I'm sure there are plenty of other components that are bought from 3rd parties in the 360 but of those components the hard drive most likely has the least potential to be used and is quite expensive.

So basically MS made a sacrifice, they decided that it was more important to be able to sell their console at a reduced price without going broke 3-4 years down the road than it was to have the HDD standard. After saying all that does it mean that I approve of what MS did? Hell no! It was probably a very difficult decision on Microsoft’s part to get rid of the HDD, hence this dual SKU nonsense. I would have rather had them just not even offer the damn HDD instead of leaving us guessing about its future viability. I also don’t like how the Japanese market gets just the one premium package and at a reduced price, but this post is huge already I’ll leave it at that.

[Heretic Machine]

Yes netcraazzy, but we've already addressed this issue. If it was a matter of Microsoft believing that people wouldn't pay for the premium system, then why are most of their systems premium (over 80% of what they are putting out), and why are people only buying the premium systems? That doesn't make any sence.

[Roc Ingersol]

then why are most of their systems premium (over 80% of what they are putting out), and why are people only buying the premium systems?
Because stores are stocking what was pre-ordered and early adopters are mostly hardcore gamers?

[netcraazzy]

Yes netcraazzy, but we've already addressed this issue. If it was a matter of Microsoft believing that people wouldn't pay for the premium system, then why are most of their systems premium (over 80% of what they are putting out), and why are people only buying the premium systems? That doesn't make any sence.

You're missing the point Perigon. As much as some people believe that meeting the $299 price point at launch is Microsoft’s main motivation for removing the HDD I'm pretty sure that my previous post showed that there is another, possibly bigger, underlying factor. MS wants to make sure that 4 years from now when the PS3 is $199-$150 they are able to match that price without taking a big loss on the hardware like they are with Xbox.

As it stands now the dual SKUs give them some flexibility. If the PS3 ships with a HDD standard then they can either drop the non HDD SKU or try to beat Sony's price with the cheaper unit. If PS3 does not ship with a HDD standard (most likely) then the non HDD unit allows MS to effectively compete price wise while minimizing losses.

It does boil down to price but not in the way that you are thinking. $299 isn't the magic number. Matching whatever price the PS3 is at while not losing money IS the magic number. I’ve already stated that I don’t like this decision because I really wanted the HDD to be an integral part of the system but I do understand why they did it and does make sense.

[civx]

Because stores are stocking what was pre-ordered and early adopters are mostly hardcore gamers?

That's too logical to make sense.

[fitbabits]

Yes netcraazzy, but we've already addressed this issue. If it was a matter of Microsoft believing that people wouldn't pay for the premium system, then why are most of their systems premium (over 80% of what they are putting out), and why are people only buying the premium systems? That doesn't make any sence.
For the sake of my sanity, can we please move on?

[Heretic Machine]

For the sake of my sanity, can we please move on?

Hey, y'know you could press that big EVIL AVATAR picture up at the top and leave this topic. Or better yet, that big X in the top right hand corner of your web browser!

[fitbabits]

Hey, y'know you could press that big EVIL AVATAR picture up at the top and leave this topic. Or better yet, that big X in the top right hand corner of your web browser!
Ah, but your selling yourself short there. How do you expect me to avert my gaze while you continue your crusade against all things 360-related?

Oh, and you could follow your own advice and let this discussion fade away and die (kinda the way the core 360 package is likely to do through time).

[Heretic Machine]

I'm not sick of the discussion, you are. Which is why I suggested that you leave, since the topic is appearently boreing you.

[fitbabits]

I'm not sick of the discussion, you are. Which is why I suggested that you leave, since the topic is appearently boreing you.
I didn't suggest that you were bored, just that you were beating a dead horse (figuratively).

[Heretic Machine]

Well, doesn't matter, I'm off to D&D now anyhow. But I was staying on topic, and so "beating a dead horse" doesn't really apply. Now if I brought it up in another topic, you could have a valid point.

[fitbabits]

Well, doesn't matter, I'm off to D&D now anyhow. But I was staying on topic, and so "beating a dead horse" doesn't really apply. Now if I brought it up in another topic, you could have a valid point.
Enjoy D&D, you geek! :rolleyes:

[Achilles]

As it stands now the dual SKUs give them some flexibility. If the PS3 ships with a HDD standard then they can either drop the non HDD SKU or try to beat Sony's price with the cheaper unit. If PS3 does not ship with a HDD standard (most likely) then the non HDD unit allows MS to effectively compete price wise while minimizing losses.I agree and I actually posted the same thing a while back in this thread. But I do think it's about consumer options. They wouldn't have the option to buy a cheap system later because the harddrives are the hardest thing to cost reduce and MS couldn't afford to offer one for a low price, or even $300 without losing money every quarter like they have in the past. It’s a round-about way of looking at it, but if you consider that MS can’t lose money like they did last time than it makes sense.

[Xerxes]

Please everybody and go broke again doing it, or make a hand full of people angry while trying to turn a profit.

It's kinda like NBA 2k games last year. Sell cheap to kick the door down, make some noise and be heard. They took the loss so everyone slight interested could get in on it. Now they are back up to $39.99. While not vocal, some folks maybe pissed they ain't getting the $19.99 price anymore.

[bone_matrix]

The only thing I have to say (and probably one of you will say that it didn't contribute to anything and I shouln't have even posted) is that the PS2 memory card is $25 for 8MB. The Xbox 360's memory card is $40 for 64MB. Quick math says that for the PS2, you pay $3.125 per a MB. For the 360, you pay $0.625 per MB. Seems like a deal to me. Think of how many people only play sports games on their PS2, and don't do it online. If they can get a next gen console, a bigger memory card, and the new madden for the same price as the Premium edition, they will. (Yes I know there will only be 20% core systems blah blah blah, I don't care).

I don't have anything better to say or add, mostly because people who are saying "***" sucks for the 2 SKUs has "logic" on their side and that no one has been able to shoot down any of their arguments, so its pointless to try. :D

[Heretic Machine]

The only thing I have to say (and probably one of you will say that it didn't contribute to anything and I shouln't have even posted) is that the PS2 memory card is $25 for 8MB. The Xbox 360's memory card is $40 for 64MB. Quick math says that for the PS2, you pay $3.125 per a MB. For the 360, you pay $0.625 per MB.

I hope you understand why that is a horrible, horrible comparison.

[bone_matrix]

I hope you understand why that is a horrible, horrible comparison.

I don't really, to be honest with you. Enlighten me.

This is also the kind of thing you and Zeal have been saying all through the thread. You act like arguments are bad, say how stupid the poster is, but then don't retort it with anything information wise.

[civx]

I don't really, to be honest with you. Enlighten me.

This is also the kind of thing you and Zeal have been saying all through the thread. You act like arguments are bad, say how stupid the poster is, but then don't retort it with anything information wise.

That is because both of them stopped caring about this thread a long time ago.

[mister_slim]

The only thing I have to say (and probably one of you will say that it didn't contribute to anything and I shouln't have even posted) is that the PS2 memory card is $25 for 8MB. The Xbox 360's memory card is $40 for 64MB. Quick math says that for the PS2, you pay $3.125 per a MB. For the 360, you pay $0.625 per MB. Seems like a deal to me.
You must love the free 512 megs that Nintendo is throwing into the Rev. That's incredibly cheap per MB. You really can't compare the tech from 6 years ago with today's, though.

[bapenguin]

$50 for a service you can get for free on the PC. For a service you WILL get for free on the Revolution and DS. That's a rip-off.

There are some things I recently thought of that I haven't seen on the PC yet.

Things like online leagues for sports games with the stats available online via the web in ESPN like presentation or other presentation styles. This includes news of trades, scores, etc in the league.

Also, things like the Halo 2 stats available online with viewing capabilites of all the games to see what happened and where it happened.

Those are some of the things you pay for that I haven't seen in a PC game yet online. Not to mention standardized voice chat, voice mail, friends list and rank based matchmaking (standard on the 360).

Live is NOT the same service that you get for free on the PC no matter how hard you try. I just hope Sony and Nintendo come up with somethign similar with as many features as well as things that may not have been thought of.

[Heretic Machine]

Things like online leagues for sports games with the stats available online via the web in ESPN like presentation or other presentation styles. This includes news of trades, scores, etc in the league.


Sports games suck, don't care.

Also, things like the Halo 2 stats available online with viewing capabilites of all the games to see what happened and where it happened.

One feature that's even worse than voice chat.

Those are some of the things you pay for that I haven't seen in a PC game yet online. Not to mention standardized voice chat, voice mail, friends list and rank based matchmaking (standard on the 360).


If you don't use Trillian you're a douche anyhow, so why bother with those who don't have it?

Live is NOT the same service that you get for free on the PC no matter how hard you try.

You're right. It's the same service I get for free on PC, but loaded down with "features" that are both useless and annoying.

[Zeal]

Oh, Live is bullshit. It can't be defended.

$50 a year without dedicated servers. Don't even give me the buddylist or stats excuse, I will just slap your faggoty ass in the face.

[RandomViolence]

Wow... what war crime did Live commit to earn such hatemongering zealots.

Sports games suck, don't care.

I think bap brought up great points. You can't simply ignore the great things Live does for sports game because "sports games suck" to you. Wonderful reasoning there. It's like saying contraceptives don't matter because I don't like sex. Fine, do whatever you like, but you can't call Live the same service and discount this just because you're not going to use it. It makes things better for a lot of people.

One feature that's even worse than voice chat.

I'm not really sure why you don't like voice chat and stat-tracking. It makes no sense to me. You don't have to use them, so how can they be bad?

If you don't use Trillian you're a douche anyhow, so why bother with those who don't have it?

Erm, yes...

You're right. It's the same service I get for free on PC, but loaded down with "features" that are both useless and annoying.

So... now extra features are annoying. You better tell developers that so they can stop putting them in. They're extras! You don't have to use them if you don't like them! I don't understand this stupid crusade against paying for a service that standardizes multiplayer across games, and beyond that provides an environment for creative uses of that infrastructure. PGR2 has downloadable ghosts for every challenge that you can grab, view, and race against without ever leaving the game. Sports titles have the leagues with ticker updates in-game like bap mentioned, and there's the party system with matchmaking in Halo, as well as they ability to see a transcript of the kills in EVERY match you've played. Yeah, gee, that all really sucks. Too bad those features are so damn annoying.

You may be able to replicate some of the features of Live, but there's nothing as universal, easy, and powerful as it is.

[bapenguin]

Wow...Zeal...Perigon...you are now officially trolls with those response...you made NO valid points to what I stated. I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt, but you've both crossed the line.

And while you tried to argue that the standardized stuff CAN be found on the PC in the form of Trillian, it's still not an out of the box solution with zero setup.

[Xerxes]

Are we talking about trillian the chat program?!?!