Microsoft and Intel go for HD-DVD

[Vandenh]

Looks like Microsoft and Intel have finally chosen sides (for now) in the BluRay versus HD-DVD format wars. The Register has the news (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/27/intel_ms_hddvd/).
Intel and Microsoft have formally allied themselves with Toshiba's HD DVD next-generation optical disc format. Both will become members of the HD DVD Promotion Group, the pair said yesterday.
Both firms' support for the format centres on its greater suitability for PCs than HD DVD's rival, the Sony-backed Blu-ray Disc (BD) represents.
So HD-DVD on most PCs?

[KamaItachi]

Not that either company comes to the debate with disinterest. Microsoft's Xbox 360 will go up against Sony's BD-equipped PlayStation 3, and while the 360 will initially ship with a regular DVD drive, Microsoft has indicated it will upgrade to a next-generation format at some point in the future - once there's sufficient content out there, presumably.

Yeah, this is gonna piss off a lot of people.

[bapenguin]

remember, Dell, HP, Sony and Apple are backing blu-ray. That's a HUGE part of the home PC market.

Also, MS is in a win win no matter which format "wins" this generation because their video codec is included on both discs specs.

[Vandenh]

>That's a HUGE part of the home PC market.

Drivers? Motherboard support? I don't see a lot of PC makers supporting BluRay if Intel/MS doesn't want them to support it.

[Ajezz]

Yeah, this is gonna piss off a lot of people.

Why? MS has never said they were going to be releasing games on HD-DVD's just that a future revision of the xbox would be able to play HD-DVD movies. They won't want to split their user base, it'll just be a gimmick to increase it's marketability later in the consoles lifespan.

Were lots of Gamecube owners pissed when the Gamecube Q or whatever it was called that could also play DVD's was released? It turned out to just be a deluxe model that noone cared about.


As for the actual topic, seeing how much PC software is currently released on plain old DVD I don't think is a very big deal... More a 360 positioning move for MS than anything else.

[Kelegacy]

What a bunch of conniving bitches. I hope the BR/HD-DVD media war doesnt hurt the consumer. But then again, whenever this sort of shit happens, it inevitably does.

[Ernst_Jager]

If Intel backs HD-DVD then Dell will have to back HD-DVD. Intel is so far up their asses I don't think they can make a decision without asking first.

[Stormwatcher]

Yarr. I hate this media standard wars. We always get the shaft. I care about which one will be bigger and cheaper.

[Vandenh]

> I care about which one will be bigger and cheaper.

:)

Bigger BluRay
Cheaper HD-DVD

Ernst_Jager is correct. If Intel and MS really push HD-DVD I don't see many PC makers including a BluRay drive.

[Roc Ingersol]

First company to slap a rewritable next gen disc into a PVR and sell it to the home market wins. Seriously, normal people don't give a shit about more capacity in and of itself on a pressed disc. They've got no problem having all their 'bonus' crap on a B side or disc 2. Both discs are capable of storing movies in HD. Normal people don't even have HD tvs yet, let alone does anyone have the will to buy movies during a format war.

What they do want, is their damn VCR back. PVR is goddamn great. But it ain't a VCR. Not until there's a rewritable removable media so they can archive.

Oh, and HD-DVD is only cheaper for the manufacturer. CD's are cheaper to manufacture than casettes, but the consumer never saw a commensurate decrease in music pricing. CD's are only more expensive today because casettes are an outdated niche.

[Vandenh]

>Oh, and HD-DVD is only cheaper for the manufacturer. CD's are cheaper to manufacture than casettes, but the consumer never saw a commensurate decrease in music pricing

True.. but the opposite does matter. If it is more expensive to make, you can bet publishers are going to hike the price.

[KidCactus]

Also, MS is in a win win no matter which format "wins" this generation because their video codec is included on both discs specs.

Ehm, are Microsoft responsible for the H.264 codec...?

Edit: Sorry, I guess you were talking about VC-1/VC-9. :o

[KamaItachi]

Why? MS has never said they were going to be releasing games on HD-DVD's just that a future revision of the xbox would be able to play HD-DVD movies. They won't want to split their user base, it'll just be a gimmick to increase it's marketability later in the consoles lifespan.

Were lots of Gamecube owners pissed when the Gamecube Q or whatever it was called that could also play DVD's was released? It turned out to just be a deluxe model that noone cared about.


As for the actual topic, seeing how much PC software is currently released on plain old DVD I don't think is a very big deal... More a 360 positioning move for MS than anything else.

Short answer: People get pissed off about everything.

Personally, if I want a HD-dvd player, I`ll get a dedicated machine, but a lot of people are going to feel short changed if the machine they got is upgraded later to play hd-dvd.
The Q was just as you said, a luxury model, a panasonic DVD player that shipped with GC hardware inside, but it was never meant to take over from the cube itself and the hardware did not become the new GameCube. If MS starts selling the X360 with HD as standard later, some early adapters will of course, be miffed.

This is of course if HD-dvd is standard, and not included in "luxury" models.

[Kyle Jones]

Man, this is just lame. Why can't companies pick one format and just compete on one level playing field rather than pulling this sort of crap?

[Roc Ingersol]

Because someone has to own the format and rake in cash on every single movie sold.
Otherwise, it'd just be -- ya know -- meritocracy.
And capitalism hates a meritocracy.

[Ajezz]

Short answer: People get pissed off about everything.

Personally, if I want a HD-dvd player, I`ll get a dedicated machine, but a lot of people are going to feel short changed if the machine they got is upgraded later to play hd-dvd.

Maybe I'm a little out of touch, but I don't think HD-DVD's are actually available yet or will be by November 22. Isn't being pissed at MS cause the 360 can't play HDDVD movies equivalent to someone in 1995 being pissed at Sony because their PS1 couldn't play DVD's?

I mean if the format war is still going on and there isn't any media available to use with it yet, how can you be upset with it not being included in the machine? I would think a much worse scenario would be raising the cost of the machine for the potential use of a future format, then that particular format ends up being the loser... Then I could see the customers being pissed.

[insidious]

Why did talks on a single, standardized format collapse again?

Much good can't come of this.

[KamaItachi]

Maybe I'm a little out of touch, but I don't think HD-DVD's are actually available yet or will be by November 22. Isn't being pissed at MS cause the 360 can't play HDDVD movies equivalent to someone in 1995 being pissed at Sony because their PS1 couldn't play DVD's?

I mean if the format war is still going on and there isn't any media available to use with it yet, how can you be upset with it not being included in the machine? I would think a much worse scenario would be raising the cost of the machine for the potential use of a future format, then that particular format ends up being the loser... Then I could see the customers being pissed.

Don't get me wrong here, my view is the same as yours. I'm happy enough MS went with the cost-cutting dvd over HD. Personally I'll wait until there's a clear winner in this war (if any at all, we may have 2 new laserdiscs on the horizon, doubtful, but possible) before I splash out on a player. HD isn't a feature I'm particularly excited about at this moment in time.

Don't get me wrong, my point of view is the same as yours, I'm not arguing aginst you. But from the pov of the consumer, and even on these boards in previous discussions, people will be unhappy if MS moves from dvd as stanmdard to HD. Maybe by that time production costs will have fallen so there's little to no difference in price. I guess it'll depend on when MS thinks there's a suitable amount of content on HD to warrant supporting it with the console, but it certainly won't affect the machine's ability to play standard dvds detrimentaly wheras those with the alder machines may feel the need to upgrade, much like the debacle with the dual SKUs (although probably nowhere near as bad).

[drakkarim]

i could care less which side wins if they're still as slow as today's disc medias, i think all disc (cd/dvd/blueD/hd) are just another shitty equivalent of punch cards from back in the day. so we're fitting more crap on them, so what, are they getting faster?

[BenSkywalker]

Don't get me wrong here, my view is the same as yours. I'm happy enough MS went with the cost-cutting dvd over HD. Personally I'll wait until there's a clear winner in this war

Your stance is backing Blu-Ray. Look at it from any logical POV- you know Blu-Ray is going to have an installed base of over 50 million world wide within a few years give or take. HD-DVD MAY have an actual player out by that time ;)

MS already killed any chance HD-DVD had. BTW- there is no way MS/Intel can stop Blu-Ray drives from being put in to PCs. They build them to SATA specs and release their own drivers and MS/Intel are SOL. If they tried to do anything to completely block them both of them would be in serious trouble with anti trust issues(Intel already has enough trouble there ATM, MS doesn't want round two starting up). Neither Intel nor MS sell anything that already contains an optical drive outside of the XB- and that has thrown all its support to BluRay being the next gen media choice.

[Vandenh]

>you know Blu-Ray is going to have an installed base of over 50 million world wide within a few years give or take

If HD-DVD becomes the standard "packed in" player on all PCs... they will have a hell of a lot more HD-DVD enabled players out there. The "PS3 will make BluRay standard argument" doesn't really hold much water. The content providers will decide and some of the big hardware makers.

MS provides the base OS... so they might include special HD-DVD support (remember what you had to do before MS included standard CD writing features in Windows?). Intel might do the same... have you checked their "Viiv" ideas? Why would a PC maker include a BluRay drive instead of a HD-DVD? No reason at all. BluRay always had a serious struggle ahead... it just got a bit worse today with MS and Intel going against it.

I will just wait, like most people, until the content providers start releasing stuff that matters.

[Mr.Green]

I'm not pissed at Microsoft but I wish the 360 would come with a "next-gen" disk format from the start. I have a friend working at the Ubi Montreal studio and fitting the 360 version of King Kong on a dual layer DVD is already a pain in the ass so just imagine how the lack of space can/will limit "real" next-gen games.

I'm pretty confident about devs using the hard drive but I don't think an eventual optional HD-DVD drive would receive much love though.

[sTubbs]

I'm not pissed at Microsoft but I wish the 360 would come with a "next-gen" disk format from the start. I have a friend working at the Ubi Montreal studio and fitting the 360 version of King Kong on a dual layer DVD is already a pain in the ass so just imagine how the lack of space can/will limit "real" next-gen games.

I'm pretty confident about devs using the hard drive but I don't think an eventual optional HD-DVD drive would receive much love though.

Really? Must be a pretty damn huge game then considering that Bethesda is fitting all of Oblivion on to a single DVD.

[Chandler]

Blu-Ray doesn't need PC support to gain the most players. First of all, like 1% of PCs out there can actually run HD movies, second of all, PCs don't need huge optical storage space for a while. By the time they do, BluRay will have had more market share and Intel and Microsoft will be forced to comply if they want to do business.

[camberiu]

Otherwise, it'd just be -- ya know -- meritocracy.
And capitalism hates a meritocracy.

As opposed to what exactly?

[Vandenh]

>First of all, like 1% of PCs out there can actually run HD movies, second of all, PCs don't need huge optical storage space for a while.

We are talking *new* PCs obviously. Don't need storage? In that case nobody needs more storage.. certainly not a console. PCs have been moving in the direction of Media centers so I guess it is only a matter of time before they move to HD solutions.

[zipR]

Does it really matter? Look at how hard it is to get games on standard DVD for pcs. I've had a DVD drive for at least 5 years, and have never bought a game for it on DVD. Not that I don't want to, but...

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Personally I think both formats are stupid. Why another disc format? Why not something new, something that isn't going to scratch like hell? I take great care of my discs, but I'm tired of renting a movie at Blockbuster that's only been out two weeks and having the damn thing skip like crazy.

I'm not rebuying all my movies for what is essentially DVD 2.

[Roc Ingersol]

As opposed to what exactly?
As opposed to monopoly.

[novicius]

I have a friend working at the Ubi Montreal studio and fitting the 360 version of King Kong on a dual layer DVD is already a pain in the ass so just imagine how the lack of space can/will limit "real" next-gen games.
Heh, that only means that there is a shite-load of FMV and HD movie clips in that game. "Real" next-gen games hopefully will offer "real" gameplay over "real" movies. ;)

[buckfutter]

There are actually a few games this generation that come close to filling up a dual layer disc without having much in the way of FMV. San Andreas would have been, if they hadn't have cut the DTS soundtrack at the last minute to avoid issues with older PS2's and dual layered discs, and MGS3 was pretty huge if I recall correctly.

I don't get this "Games will be only slightly larger!" thing. Average game sizes between generations have always increased by at least two-fold... sure, we're probably dumping FMV this coming gen and compression is always getting better, but seriously. We have much higher res textures, more animations, higher res art assets, 5.1 soundtracks standard, higher audio quality bitrates expected and so on. How can a next gen GTA title be expected to fit on a single dual layer disc (I really don't feel like switching discs when I go over a bridge...) when the radio in the current title uses on 32kpbs audio streams and the PS2 version has huge brown slabs for textures?

Developers who build with the limits of the format in mind will have no problem, and if they can fit Oblivion on a single disc than I doubt we'll see any real complaints... but I can't help but be a little worried about another N64 style situation.

[TrackZero]

Ugh. I already hate the new formats. Especially when the current one didn't properly get utilized, being double-sided and double density, which most DVD manufacters are too cheap to bother doing.

[EvilBob46]

Really? Must be a pretty damn huge game then considering that Bethesda is fitting all of Oblivion on to a single DVD.

Funny, Epic said their next-generation game are going to need 20 gigs or so and even then being able to fit them on 2 dual-layer DVD-9s isn't for certain.

Heh, that only means that there is a shite-load of FMV and HD movie clips in that game. "Real" next-gen games hopefully will offer "real" gameplay over "real" movies. ;)

I'm 90% sure that all of Gears of War's cutscenes are rendered with the ingame engine just like the actual gameplay.

[Mr.Green]

Heh, that only means that there is a shite-load of FMV and HD movie clips in that game. "Real" next-gen games hopefully will offer "real" gameplay over "real" movies. ;)
I'd have to talk to him again to get more details but apparently the 360 libraries alone eat a lot of space. Anyway, it doesn't take that long to fill a DVD with high-res textures, highly detailed models and levels, 5.1 sound files and whatnot.

[Roc Ingersol]

I don't get this "Games will be only slightly larger!" thing.
They're hoping procedurally generated content is going to take off.
It's one of the true strengths of the 360's architecture.

[mister_slim]

If Intel backs HD-DVD then Dell will have to back HD-DVD. Intel is so far up their asses I don't think they can make a decision without asking first.
Apple doesn't give a fuck though. And they have a significant chunk of the media people.
Don't get me wrong here, my view is the same as yours. I'm happy enough MS went with the cost-cutting dvd over HD.
I find myself wishing they'd done a little more cost-cutting, to bring the price down to $250/$350.

[Ajr]

They're hoping procedurally generated content is going to take off.
Textures are already like that, and I imagine a lot of stuff is going to be calculated instead of stored, it's the best way. I don't really understand why people think games are going to need over 8 gigs, it was only the crappy FMV heavy console RPGs that needed that much space and if it means a stop to them, then thank god.

[Opty]

From my experience, coders code much cleaner and designers design much better when they have limitations: not enough memory, not enough space, need low poly counts for high FPS, etc. When you give them a field to play in they will attempt to use the entire field. So if you make a 50GB disk they will figure out a way to fill it up. They will stop taking the time to clip unseen polygons because the machine can handle the extra load. They will stop trying to optimize chunks of code because the system can run fast enough to hide it. It's already happening, you can tell with how much buggier console games are getting that laziness and sloppiness are starting to take over. Those things have been in the PC world longer because it's not limited by the media: you can load everything you need onto the harddrive with multiple disks. and people didn't care as much because it's a one time disk swap during install vs console disk swapping which happens whenever you want content that's stored on the other disk.

[Kelegacy]

Textures are already like that, and I imagine a lot of stuff is going to be calculated instead of stored, it's the best way. I don't really understand why people think games are going to need over 8 gigs, it was only the crappy FMV heavy console RPGs that needed that much space and if it means a stop to them, then thank god.

A stop to them? Wow, you get today's Retard Award for this post. It would be like wishing the end of FPS's or RTS's because you hate that genre. Just because you don't enjoy console RPGs does not mean that everyone else agrees with your retarded outlook. Many companies have already stated that they'll easily go over the 9 gig mark. Don't you think that Rockstar will with GTA4? Halo 3 will probably come pretty close, too, depending on how big the thing is (unless it is only 4 fucking hours long, which it probably will be). Companies are going to have to release a separate Live! disc to accompany the game disc probably. Halo2 was dual layer. If Halo 3 is triple the beauty, 1 disc could be pushing it. Multi-disc games are just plain irritating in this day and age. If you can get away with one disc, everyone wins.

Also, do me a favor and name a FMV heavy console RPG from this generation besides FFX. Go on, try it. If you cant think of many, then you've already proven that you deserve that award I've bestowed upon you.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Well Xenosaga was pretty FMV intensive, even more so than FFX. I still agree with what you are saying though.

Maybe the ending to Halo 2 couldn't fit on the one disc, and they cut it to avoid shipping the game on two. ;)



Edit - Ajr better hope that Zeal comes back to claim that "Retard" title.

[Kelegacy]

Well Xenosaga was pretty FMV intensive, even more so than FFX. I still agree with what you are saying though.

Maybe the ending to Halo 2 couldn't fit on the one disc, and they cut it to avoid shipping the game on two. ;)




I think Xenosaga had a lot of cutscenes, but most were in-game. The first game fit on a DVD9, the second was split between 2 DVD5's. I know this was one title to be mentioned, because it's the obvious answer.
Edit - Ajr better hope that Zeal comes back to claim that "Retard" title.
It's a daily award I sometimes give out. Oh, there are monthly retards, for sure, but there is always one post a day that deserves the Retard Award. Hell, I deserve it more times than not.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Maybe Xenosaga was in-game. I didn't actually play it, so I can't say for sure. I just remember all the talk about the 50 million hours of cutscenes that the game had.

[Kelegacy]

Yeah I played it and beat it. Not too bad of a game, really. I own the second but havent played it. I enjoy lengthy cut-scenes, but Xenosaga was a bit ridiculous. But at least you could pause the movies if you needed to run out for groceries or a new kidney or something.

[bobbler]

Some of you guys are silly.

Intel and Microsoft don't really matter when it comes to deciding who will win the war -- Intel doesn't produce or include any sort of optical drive and Microsoft will support both formats equally in their OS (they'd be incredibly stupid not to support a format where their own codec is being used, add to that they've already said they'd support both formats in their OS' -- really doesn't matter either way, all a company would need to do is include a driver if the OS didn't support it for some reason). Intel liking one format over another is likened to Frigidaire saying they liked Blu-ray more -- So what? Their power has nothing to do with optical drives, and they don't have any power to say what is included in a computer. Some of you people seem to think because Intel likes HD-DVD that Dell is going to leave the board of trustees on the Blu-ray consortium and jump ship, same with HP and Apple ... It's quite an absurd conclusion to come to.

Dell and HP own quite a bit of the standard market (around 35% of the PC market in just those two, worldwide). Apple takes care of the quirky crowd and Sony helps a bit too (not much though, their PC market share isn't near what Dell/HP/Apple is most likely).

Also one might question what effect UMD's success will have on it -- Some movie studios might be a bit warmer to Blu-ray after seeing the rather lively success of the UMD movie format (compared to what everyone seemed to think it would turn out to be, including myself).

[Draft]

I'm not pissed at Microsoft but I wish the 360 would come with a "next-gen" disk format from the start. I have a friend working at the Ubi Montreal studio and fitting the 360 version of King Kong on a dual layer DVD is already a pain in the ass so just imagine how the lack of space can/will limit "real" next-gen games.

I'm pretty confident about devs using the hard drive but I don't think an eventual optional HD-DVD drive would receive much love though.Bullshit. Fucking PC games still come on CDs, and don't try to tell me that textures meant for 1920x1200 are smaller than 720p. When publishers are nice enough to actually put a game on DVD, they have to cram the thing with crap like wallpapers and movie files to fill up all the extra space.

edit: Also, Sony, Apple, MS, IBM, Dell, Toshiba and Mrs. Buttersworth are all fucking dreaming if they think john q public is ready to scrap their DVD players to pick blu ray or hd-dvd units.

[bobbler]

edit: Also, Sony, Apple, MS, IBM, Dell, Toshiba and Mrs. Buttersworth are all fucking dreaming if they think john q public is ready to scrap their DVD players to pick blu ray or hd-dvd units.

That's exactly why PS3 is important to Blu-ray. It is cheap (people will get it because they want a PS3 most likely -- some might get it because its probably going to be a cheap BR player though) and will get into people's homes without them really knowing it. Then they can start buying blu-ray movies without the real initial cost of ditching their DVD player.

Most people won't want it enough to go buy one, but I'm sure they'll happily take it if it's pratically given to them (or them purchasing it indirectly).

Personally I'm in no hurry for either format -- no HDTV.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

Bullshit. Fucking PC games still come on CDs, and don't try to tell me that textures meant for 1920x1200 are smaller than 720p. When publishers are nice enough to actually put a game on DVD, they have to cram the thing with crap like wallpapers and movie files to fill up all the extra space.

edit: Also, Sony, Apple, MS, IBM, Dell, Toshiba and Mrs. Buttersworth are all fucking dreaming if they think john q public is ready to scrap their DVD players to pick blu ray or hd-dvd units.

Well, there were two known 360 software companies who have complained about the same thing. There were a couple of games this gen that started to push the storage capabilites...GTA was one. Also, as much as everyone says that hate CGs, there are plenty of others that do. Do you think they still would make games with them if there weren't? The 360 game eNCHANT aRM is going to be on 3 disks most likely. Yeah, if they worked a bit more on compression, they may have been able to shrink it, but that is their choice.

Next, although Mrs. Butterworth makes a mean syrup, but I'm shocked to know that she is a technophile too! There are early adopters for everything. Once the Blu-Rays/HD-DVDs come out, they will catch on. It will be a beta-vhs war all over again. Personally, Blu-Ray is in a better position to win this battle. HD-DVD will start off cheaper initially. But in about a year or two, the price will be the same and then HD-DVD will lose its advantage. Couple that with the fact that all those who buy a PS3 will have the Blu-Ray experience built in, it leads to the fact that they will buy Blu-Ray movies. Blu-Ray has many more companies preparing to make BR movies and HD-DVD is actually losing studio support. With BR having higher capacity, it means that the HD-DVD movies will have much more space and can support a higher fidelity sound.
HD-DVD is only around because of cost.

HD-DVD dual sided equals 30GB
Blu-Ray dual sided equals 50GB

Sony will scream numbers at people and they will go that way because Americans need the 'bigger and better' everything. Japan will adopt it out of principle. With HD-DVD not being standard in the launch 360, MS has damned the format to have a much tougher time surviving. I wouldn't be surprised if MS sold more than 4 million 360's in holiday season 05'. That would have given HD-DVD an impressive head start before Blu-Ray launched.

[mister_slim]

That's exactly why PS3 is important to Blu-ray. It is cheap (people will get it because they want a PS3 most likely -- some might get it because its probably going to be a cheap BR player though) and will get into people's homes without them really knowing it. Then they can start buying blu-ray movies without the real initial cost of ditching their DVD player.
I still think Sony should start shipping Blu-Ray/(vanilla)DVD disks this Christmas. If people own DVDs that have the Blu-Ray content already on there they'll go for the Blu-Ray player (the PS3, probably).

[KamaItachi]

I still think Sony should start shipping Blu-Ray/(vanilla)DVD disks this Christmas. If people own DVDs that have the Blu-Ray content already on there they'll go for the Blu-Ray player (the PS3, probably).


Really? who would spend extra on a dvd with BR extras under the pretence of maybe getting a player further down the line?

Early adapters, yes. But how will anyone justify that, even at Christmas

Sony: Buy our new dvds!
Average consumer: So, these are better, yeah? they're pretty expensive
Sony, Yeah, they're better and hold more.
AC: Cool! lots and lots of extras, little Jimmy will love this!
Sony: He sure will.... in 5-6 months... when you buy him a new BR player to watch them.

[BenSkywalker]

If HD-DVD becomes the standard "packed in" player on all PCs... they will have a hell of a lot more HD-DVD enabled players out there. The "PS3 will make BluRay standard argument" doesn't really hold much water. The content providers will decide and some of the big hardware makers.

What on Earth makes you think a HD-DVD drive included in every PC would in any way determine what avenue the industry is going to take? JohnQPublic watches movies on their entertainment centers- media center PCs are a miniscule minority at best and they are growing very slowly in terms of penetration. The PS3 will significantly exceed their sales from the day it launches(as will the XB360)

MS provides the base OS... so they might include special HD-DVD support (remember what you had to do before MS included standard CD writing features in Windows?)

I had to install Nero.... I had forgotten all about the nightmare that was- inserting a CD, checking a couple of boxes....... I must have repressed the memory of dealing with that horrific occurance in my life ;)

Reality is that the studios are going to start off with a very hesitant approach as they always do to a new media format. Strictly from a business POV why would anyone think that HD-DVD stood a chance at this point? It is inferior technology and is already walking into competition with a future installed base of 50Million plus if noone buys a stand alone BluRay player. The next gen format wars were over when MS dropped the HD-DVD driver from the XB360. I'm not saying this in any way because I was pulling for Sony(I loathe the company personally- they make cheap sh!t designed to break down constantly and offer at best mediocre quality while charging a premium price)- just think of it from the studio's perspective in business terms. BluRay has won the format wars, MS and Intel announcing support for it is akin to Wal-Mart announcing support for car companies offering six speed transmissions.

[Vandenh]

>I had to install Nero

You had to BUY Nero dude....

>What on Earth makes you think a HD-DVD drive included in every PC would in any way determine what avenue the industry is going to take?

Ecomony of scale. There are a bit more PCs than consoles of the planet, hence making HD-DVD drives nice and cheapo to make.

[BenSkywalker]

Nero came with my CD-RW(and that was OEM).

HD-DVDs can cost next to nothing to make- if noone is using them to play movies(which would be likely if they were used in a PC) it is a dead end for studios.